Sanjay Manjrekar: Pakistan and the winning gene missing link

[BaankeJi]

Manjrekar has no clue. India of 90s was not nearly as bad as today's Pakistan.
Azhar( minus fixing), Tendulkar,Kapil, Kumble and then Ganguly and Dravid maintained the standard quite well.

 

[RajBan]

Manjrekar has no clue. India of 90s was not nearly as bad as today's Pakistan.
Azhar( minus fixing), Tendulkar,Kapil, Kumble and then Ganguly and Dravid maintained the standard quite well.

We need to understand that for Manjrekar the 80s and 90s is all about championing mediocrity that he and Sastri represents. These two did not play because of champion mentality inherited from Mumbai circuit, but rather the powerful lobby that backed their mediocrity. It will obviously be difficult for Manjrekar to admit that and hence he need to come up with this alternate narrative. There is no doubt that Mumbai cricket circuit has produced Indian legends and mentally tough Cricketers like Gavaskar, Vengsarkar, Tendulkar and many more but it is also true that they have gifted mediocre players like Sastry and Manjrekar and many more who did nothing but pulling legs of players from other regions and fulfil the agenda of the lobby that backs them. The fact is that eligible players from Vidarbha or any other region in the late 80s and 90s did not get enough chances at all to cement their place because of so called mentally tough champions like Manjrekar , Sastry and Kambli who had great textbook techniques but less spirit. When faced with tough oppositions particularly Pakistan they used to falter like anything. Tendulkar and Azhar were proper tough players but Tendulkar never tried to curb down on regional politics and Azhar lost his way.

Things only changed once Dalmia came to power and Ganguly became the captain. They definitely had their own brand of politics but somewhere they ensured that players get selected based on merit. It helped that Ganguly had a strong core with Tendulkar, Dravid, Lakshman, Kumble and each one being a champion based on performance and not where they come from. A system of mediocrity got replaced with a system of meritocracy notwithstanding the inherent politics of BCCI, State Board and Team management. That's were you started seeing Sehwags, Yuvrajs, Kaifs, Harbhajans, Dhonis getting fasttracked and properly backed by team management .

 

[Mamoon]

Imran is ny fav allrounder ever however I think a lot of his captaincy exploits are overrated as are his terrible speeches and sayings. Pakistan should stop following that and follow what works now.
If Imran was a legendary captain - pakistan had enough talent in the late 80's to early 90s to be the best cricket team in the world. But quite often they'd fold away from home in tests.

Dhoni surpassed Imran as a leader and captain long ago, and Kohli is a World Cup title away. Imran’s captaincy exploits are overhyped because hero-worshipping is very strong in Pakistan, and he is a messiah type figure.

Not winning the 1987 World Cup is a big stain on his legacy. That World Cup was for Pakistan was the 2011 World Cup was for India, and Dhoni would have never surrendered the 1987 World Cup if he was leading Pakistan.

 

[Mueez]

Reverse Swing Edge:

There were couple of other factors, the most important one was "Reverse Swing" Technology. Most if not all away series are won because of reverse swing, even the decisive blow in WC final was thanks to Akram's reverse...Reverse was not a fluke Tech, the difference was that nobody else knew about it and we almost had patented it for 25+ years... In today's world, we have so special edge or any edge on reverse, that is commodity product, plus ICC has heavily scrutinized it. We have not come up with anything new.

Leadership is overrate, System wins:

Leadership is over rated in our culture, he have habbit of making people God and not focus on process of building system. We are emotional driven society more so than reason base. That's why religion and Army dominate the political and cultural landscape.

India in last 10-15 year has become lot more professional in every aspect of the culture than us. They have less of OLD desi culture and more so professional culture of west embedded in their society. Main reason in IT boom, their culture changed as they were working constantly with west for 25-30 years now, that has transformed their culture immensely. This is reflected not only in Cricket but in Tech sector of Indian society and lot of other sectors. This does not happen in a day, it happened over the period of quarter of century. You cannot give credit to any one or group of leaders. It has everything to do with boom of IT industry, where need to Indian work force was need of west, but Indian really learned and transformed from that experience. This learning was again harden by trial and error, learning from mistakes, like many products you develop.

On the other hand, we are still invested in 50 year old social, professional and civil model that has failed us than and is still failing us. We are still heavily invested in Faith based ideologies aka religion and Army, there is no other substantive pillar of society. We are not able to tap the High Tech, even when we could have. Result is that gulf(in every aspect of life) between us and India is as enormous as everybody witness last Sunday in Cricket.

Leadership alone is no answer to investment in system. Pakistani have Hail Mary approach to life, now all eggs are in IK leadership basket, which is such an irrational and rubbish approach. Like most Hail Marries chance of success is almost zero.

A very insightful post.

Well done!

 

[Mainul]

Wow. That's a pretty impressive article whether you like Manjrekar or not.

Sanjay's analysis is always good.

 

[Mainul]

Dhoni surpassed Imran as a leader and captain long ago, and Kohli is a World Cup title away. Imran’s captaincy exploits are overhyped because hero-worshipping is very strong in Pakistan, and he is a messiah type figure.

Not winning the 1987 World Cup is a big stain on his legacy. That World Cup was for Pakistan was the 2011 World Cup was for India, and Dhoni would have never surrendered the 1987 World Cup if he was leading Pakistan.

Imran won world in Australia and Newzealand which Dhoni can only dream of

 

[Pakhs]

Sanjay is making a valid point example is Kusal Mendis of Srilanka who is averaging 26 in ODIs despite having so much talent. Its because its much harder to perform in a struggling team where there are now senior legends to guide the younger players and no culture of winning.

 

[Pakhs]

Imran won world in Australia and Newzealand which Dhoni can only dream of

This guy Mamoon doesn't know what cricket is he himself is the biggest hero worshipers specially India heroes. How can he equate winning a WC in Australia to winning at home? That too when you have the likes of Sachin and Sehwag in the team. Sachin probably made most of the decisions for him anyway.

 

[RainStopsPlay]

Imran won world in Australia and Newzealand which Dhoni can only dream of

Dhoni has own every ICC tournament in the world and every Major cup possible under the sun, which the other legendary captains can only dream of!

 

[Mamoon]

Imran won world in Australia and Newzealand which Dhoni can only dream of

This guy Mamoon doesn't know what cricket is he himself is the biggest hero worshipers specially India heroes. How can he equate winning a WC in Australia to winning at home? That too when you have the likes of Sachin and Sehwag in the team. Sachin probably made most of the decisions for him anyway.

If winning the World Cup at home is a piece of cake, the so-called greatest Asian captain Imran would have done it in 1987. No one told him to choke against Australia in the semifinal in Lahore.

Kapil winning India the 1983 World Cup ahead of West Indies, and Ranatunga leading Sri Lanka to glory in 1996 ahead of India and Pakistan are bigger achievements than Imran winning Pakistan the 1992 World Cup. Our fans act as if Imran is the only captain to have won a World Cup.

There is no doubt that Imran is Pakistan's greatest captain and one of the finest leaders the game has seen. I also have no issues with people rating him higher than Dhoni and Kohli, but statements like "there is no comparison between Imran and Kohli/Dhoni" and "they will never reach his level" etc. are utter nonsense.

Pakistani fans put him on an extremely high pedestal, and you would think that a modern captain has to win a dozen World Cups and climb Mt. Everest blindfolded to be considered a better captain or even his equal.

The likes of Imran, Ganguly and Ranatunga are very much comparable as captains. Dhoni is better than them all when you consider his achievements, and Kohli seems to be on his way as well. However, he will have to lead India to a World Cup title. He has ticked all other boxes already.

 

[Pakhs]

If winning the World Cup at home is a piece of cake, the so-called greatest Asian captain Imran would have done it in 1987. No one told him to choke against Australia in the semifinal in Lahore.

Kapil winning India the 1983 World Cup ahead of West Indies, and Ranatunga leading Sri Lanka to glory in 1996 ahead of India and Pakistan are bigger achievements than Imran winning Pakistan the 1992 World Cup. Our fans act as if Imran is the only captain to have won a World Cup.

There is no doubt that Imran is Pakistan's greatest captain and one of the finest leaders the game has seen. I also have no issues with people rating him higher than Dhoni and Kohli, but statements like "there is no comparison between Imran and Kohli/Dhoni" and "they will never reach his level" etc. are utter nonsense.

Pakistani fans put him on an extremely high pedestal, and you would think that a modern captain has to win a dozen World Cups and climb Mt. Everest blindfolded to be considered a better captain or even his equal.

The likes of Imran, Ganguly and Ranatunga are very much comparable as captains. Dhoni is better than them all when you consider his achievements, and Kohli seems to be on his way as well. However, he will have to lead India to a World Cup title. He has ticked all other boxes already.

Kholi captaincy was put to shame by Srilanka when they won in SA. It was kohli school boy errors that costed India the chance to win in SA and England but obviously your hero worshiping is strong to see that.

 

[Mamoon]

Kholi captaincy was put to shame by Srilanka when they won in SA. It was kohli school boy errors that costed India the chance to win in SA and England but obviously your hero worshiping is strong to see that.

Imran lost a Test match to Sri Lanka in 1986 when they were proper minnows. In fact, Pakistan drew the series 1-1. No wonder Imran decided to stop playing minnows after that. However, you won't see Imran worshippers highlight this fact. There are dark sides to everyone's captaincy and you can find holes in every career.

Kohli is not perfect, but he has proved to be a very successful Test captain. He is only 30, but already has almost twice as many Test wins as Imran, and by the time he is done, he has a realistic chance of overtaking G. Smith's tally of 53 wins.

But yes, he cannot dare to surpass the achievements of the great cornered tiger who lost a Test match to Sri Lanka in 1986.

 

[Mainul]

Dhoni has own every ICC tournament in the world and every Major cup possible under the sun, which the other legendary captains can only dream of!

There are only two ICC tournaments CW ,Champions trophy. CT was not in existence in Imran's time. Pakistan won Neheru MRF cup under him in India in 1989 in which all test playing nation's participated. Come back if Dhoni can win WC in England now. It's an immature a t to measure legacy and greatness of captain Imran by cups only. Every cricket analysts and experts and former cricketer except some few biased ones will just laugh if u say that Dhoni was a better captain than Imran

 

[Hitman]

There are only two ICC tournaments CW ,Champions trophy. CT was not in existence in Imran's time. Pakistan won Neheru MRF cup under him in India in 1989 in which all test playing nation's participated. Come back if Dhoni can win WC in England now. It's an immature a t to measure legacy and greatness of captain Imran by cups only. Every cricket analysts and experts and former cricketer except some few biased ones will just laugh if u say that Dhoni was a better captain than Imran

No, all Test playing nations did not participate in the Nehru Cup. Check the facts. Dhoni’s achievements tower over Imran’s achievements in both formats.

 

[Pakhs]

Imran lost a Test match to Sri Lanka in 1986 when they were proper minnows. In fact, Pakistan drew the series 1-1. No wonder Imran decided to stop playing minnows after that. However, you won't see Imran worshippers highlight this fact. There are dark sides to everyone's captaincy and you can find holes in every career.

Kohli is not perfect, but he has proved to be a very successful Test captain. He is only 30, but already has almost twice as many Test wins as Imran, and by the time he is done, he has a realistic chance of overtaking G. Smith's tally of 53 wins.

But yes, he cannot dare to surpass the achievements of the great cornered tiger who lost a Test match to Sri Lanka in 1986.

He can dare and also try no issues but kohli captaincy is no way near and Srilanka were not proper minnows at all by that time they were threatening to become what they have become properly.

Everybody knows the kohlis captaincy were the only reason why they didnt win in SA and England despite having their best every team by most pundits. Dhoni came close to imran but due to shocking performances away from home couldnt actually pass him and kohli i am afraid is just not good enough as a captain as proven by failures is SA and England.

 

[Mamoon]

He can dare and also try no issues but kohli captaincy is no way near and Srilanka were not proper minnows at all by that time they were threatening to become what they have become properly.

Everybody knows the kohlis captaincy were the only reason why they didnt win in SA and England despite having their best every team by most pundits. Dhoni came close to imran but due to shocking performances away from home couldnt actually pass him and kohli i am afraid is just not good enough as a captain as proven by failures is SA and England.

Sri Lanka were proper minnows in the 1980s. Out of the 29 Tests that they played, they only won 2. Beating Pakistan, the second strongest Test team of the decade led by the GOAT Asian captain and cornered tiger was the highlight of their decade.

Kohli's captaincy wasn't the reason why they lost in South Africa. That series was played one some of the most bowling-friendly pitches in history. In fact, it is the only series in history where every single wicket fell. Chasing in the fourth innings was an impossible task and it is not a surprise that the all three Tests were won by the captain who won the toss. The outcome of the series was heavily influenced by the toss, and it could easily have been 2-1 to India had Kohli won two tosses instead of Faf.

The England series was a failure on his part. He should have done better, but it was not half as embarrassing Pakistan drawing 1-1 with Sri Lanka in 1986.

I know it is easily to downplay India's historic triumph in Australia because of the absence of Smith and Warner, but no contemporary Asian team would come close to winning in Australia even if they rest 5-6 main players.

Statements like "Kohli's captaincy is nowhere near Imran" mean nothing. Kohli has proved to be a very good captain on Tests who is well on his way of breaking many records.

 

[Hitman]

Sri Lanka were proper minnows till around 1994.

 

[narayanjan]

Imran was a more than decent all rounder with charisma and good leadership skills. That is it. The problem is that for Pakistani fans who have had absolutely no role models (athletes or players who have excelled on a world stage in a group competition) a decent player becomes the best the world has ever seen - the messiah who delivers humanity to the other world.

The truly sad thing is when standards are low and the bar low - an entire community accepts surpassing the low bar as the best of humanity.

 

[RajBan]

Sri Lanka were proper minnows in the 1980s. Out of the 29 Tests that they played, they only won 2. Beating Pakistan, the second strongest Test team of the decade led by the GOAT Asian captain and cornered tiger was the highlight of their decade.

Kohli's captaincy wasn't the reason why they lost in South Africa. That series was played one some of the most bowling-friendly pitches in history. In fact, it is the only series in history where every single wicket fell. Chasing in the fourth innings was an impossible task and it is not a surprise that the all three Tests were won by the captain who won the toss. The outcome of the series was heavily influenced by the toss, and it could easily have been 2-1 to India had Kohli won two tosses instead of Faf.

The England series was a failure on his part. He should have done better, but it was not half as embarrassing Pakistan drawing 1-1 with Sri Lanka in 1986.

I know it is easily to downplay India's historic triumph in Australia because of the absence of Smith and Warner, but no contemporary Asian team would come close to winning in Australia even if they rest 5-6 main players.

Statements like "Kohli's captaincy is nowhere near Imran" mean nothing. Kohli has proved to be a very good captain on Tests who is well on his way of breaking many records.

Do not want to debate on Kohli vs Imran as that will go on forever. Kohli is definitely over-rated as captain specially given that his squad and playing 11 selections has been a major dampener. He is still not very successful when taking independent decisions and at times very impulsive on the field. It's a different thing that he gets 95 out of 100 for his batting capabilities but that can not compensate for his follies as a captain. He may still become better as a leader but there is no guarantee and irrespective of the number of series/matches he wins, he still lags Ganguly in terms of high profile man management and Dhoni in terms of managing difficult periods of play.

Coming speicifically to South Africa series, it was lost because in the first test India played Rohit instead of Rahane who is the better test player. Rohit should not be even in the test squad in the SENA countries given his consistent failures, but Kohl's nepotistic selection for his friend cost India the first test and the series.

 

[AdamM97]

Lol at people comparing Kohli to Imran Khan. Without any bias (since i’m a Pakistani), Imran is a better captain. Kohli’s captaincy in IPL should be enough for everyone to realize that he’s average as a captain. Dhoni and Gangouly are far better captains compared to Kohli but Kohli is a better individual player.

 

[sshakir411]

Sanjay babu..since the 90s the Pakistan team has been like Chinese electronics...”chal gaya toh chaand tak nai toh shaam tak” - Junaid Akram

 

[Pakhs]

Imran was a more than decent all rounder with charisma and good leadership skills. That is it. The problem is that for Pakistani fans who have had absolutely no role models (athletes or players who have excelled on a world stage in a group competition) a decent player becomes the best the world has ever seen - the messiah who delivers humanity to the other world.

The truly sad thing is when standards are low and the bar low - an entire community accepts surpassing the low bar as the best of humanity.

More than decent allrounder? I think its well acknowledged he was better all rounder than India with a population of 1.3billion ever had, which is not an insult just a measure of how good Imran was.

 

[narayanjan]

More than decent allrounder? I think its well acknowledged he was better all rounder than India with a population of 1.3billion ever had, which is not an insult just a measure of how good Imran was.

He might have been better than any past all rounder India produced. Maybe. However there were much greater all rounders in the world of cricket - Kallis, Sobers, Gilchrist [if you consider WK as also another skill] etc. So he just that a more than better allrounder and a charismatic captain.

 

[narayanjan]

When it comes to some players such as Imran Khan - objective ways of measuring how good a player he is [example win ratio, batting average, bowling average etc] goes out of the window. Because he means so much to Pakistani fans suddenly he takes on a demi-god status. Maybe for you. However to an objective cricket fan who looks at statistics as an objective way to compare between players - he is just that an above average all rounder [I'm not sure he will make the top 5 allrounders of all time] and a decent captain.

 

[Pakhs]

He might have been better than any past all rounder India produced. Maybe. However there were much greater all rounders in the world of cricket - Kallis, Sobers, Gilchrist [if you consider WK as also another skill] etc. So he just that a more than better allrounder and a charismatic captain.

Kallis was not better his primary skill was batting, Only sobers can claim to be better who also had a claim to be the best ever cricketer.

 

[Pakhs]

When it comes to some players such as Imran Khan - objective ways of measuring how good a player he is [example win ratio, batting average, bowling average etc] goes out of the window. Because he means so much to Pakistani fans suddenly he takes on a demi-god status. Maybe for you. However to an objective cricket fan who looks at statistics as an objective way to compare between players - he is just that an above average all rounder [I'm not sure he will make the top 5 allrounders of all time] and a decent captain.

Well if we take God culture away from India, Sachin only won one WC out of 5/6 he played same as amazing. Was a failure as a captain (embarrassing) and got out cheaply in the WC final he won.

 

[narayanjan]

Well if we take God culture away from India, Sachin only won one WC out of 5/6 he played same as amazing. Was a failure as a captain (embarrassing) and got out cheaply in the WC final he won.

that was pretty childish.

I view Tendulkar with the same objective measures. He was an amazing batsman but a mediocre captain.

 

[narayanjan]

By the by Pakhs I mean no illwill through my comment. All I was is making a rational comment. However I understand that sometimes and especially for players we like, sometimes the intangibles a players brings means a lot, and therefore we assess and cherish them beyond the stats.

Peace! Smile, it takes fewer muscles to smile than to frown.

 

[Pakhs]

that was pretty childish.

I view Tendulkar with the same objective measures. He was an amazing batsman but a mediocre captain.

By the by Pakhs I mean no illwill through my comment. All I was is making a rational comment. However I understand that sometimes and especially for players we like, sometimes the intangibles a players brings means a lot, and therefore we assess and cherish them beyond the stats.

Peace! Smile, it takes fewer muscles to smile than to frown.

No offence was taken I am also just making a point that God culture exists more in India than anywhere else. I never understood the craze for Sachin beyond he was an okay batman who never won india much. He contributed to the team by runs but was never able to influence big win. Where Imran was at the heart of everything Pakistan won during his playing days.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

No offence was taken I am also just making a point that God culture exists more in India than anywhere else. I never understood the craze for Sachin beyond he was an okay batman who never won india much. He contributed to the team by runs but was never able to influence big win. Where Imran was at the heart of everything Pakistan won during his playing days.

That's just a myth man.

Anyways....

 

[Mainul]

No, all Test playing nations did not participate in the Nehru Cup. Check the facts. Dhoni’s achievements tower over Imran’s achievements in both formats.

South Africa was not existent then, Zimbos yet to get test status. So which country didn't play in that tourn? NZ which was nearly a minnow then and even if they played the winner would have been same

 

[Mainul]

No, all Test playing nations did not participate in the Nehru Cup. Check the facts. Dhoni’s achievements tower over Imran’s achievements in both formats.

If stats are the final answer then Amla is an ATG in ODIs.

 

[Hitman]

If stats are the final answer then Amla is an ATG in ODIs.

LOL, we’re speaking about number of matches won, not number of runs/wickets taken.

 

[Hitman]

South Africa was not existent then, Zimbos yet to get test status. So which country didn't play in that tourn? NZ which was nearly a minnow then and even if they played the winner would have been same

And therein lies the false part in your original statement.

 

[Stewie]

He is wrong. He is trying to tell you that since Pakistan simply is not good enough to win since Imran left. Well Pakistan got to the final of 99 World Cup, bested India in India in world test championship, won world t20, won ICCT, played one world t 20 final.

If we had weak leadership or dearth of talent, we won’t get there. Also let me remind Sanjay our away test record is since Imran was still better than India’s till we stopped playing at home which of course affected our cricket a lot.

I refuse to accept his analysis. Our issues are simple:
Poor professionalism and lack of grooming of younger players. We don’t have dearth of talent.. and we absolutely have no dearth of good leaders.

Since Imran, we had Wasim, waqar, misbah, younis and now Sarfaraz who in my opinion were all good leaders and motivated their players.

Afridi wasn’t bad either. Neither was Butt but he was a cheat.

 

[Mirpur express]

Good write but nothing that we don’t know.. we will never change unless we have at least 2/3 guys in the team who want to be the heroes & win the game for Pakistan themselves... just the approach/application is missing the tools are there

 

[Mainul]

LOL, we’re speaking about number of matches won, not number of runs/wickets taken.

The context is the same. Stat. Stat includes the number of matches won too.

 

[Hitman]

The context is the same. Stat. Stat includes the number of matches won too.

No, it’s not. That way you can discount Pakistan’s superior head to head record against India too since that too is a stat. How about Australia being the most successful Test team ever, that too is based on stats. Let’s discount that as well

Dhoni’s captaincy achievements towers above those of Imran’s anyday. Even blind Freddie can see it.

 

[Mainul]

No, it’s not. That way you can discount Pakistan’s superior head to head record against India too since that too is a stat. How about Australia being the most successful Test team ever, that too is based on stats. Let’s discount that as well

Dhoni’s captaincy achievements towers above those of Imran’s anyday. Even blind Freddie can see it.

You are contradicting yourself. Pakistan isn't better than India now but was in the past, in 90s. Stat shows it, okay. And it shows it correctly. Amla is better than Viv Richards in ODIs . Stat shows it ,right? But it shows it wrongly as u know these two players aren't even comparable. All that stats shows isn't true reflection.

Dhoni has stat superiority over Imran as a captain ,that is why Dhoni is best amongst two ! Cricket isnt perceived in that way. If it is then why u don't recognize Shakib as a better all rounder than Imran and Kapil as by stat Shakib as surpassed them ?

 

[Hitman]

You are contradicting yourself. Pakistan isn't better than India now but was in the past, in 90s. Stat shows it, okay. And it shows it correctly. Amla is better than Viv Richards in ODIs . Stat shows it ,right? But it shows it wrongly as u know these two players aren't even comparable. All that stats shows isn't true reflection.

Dhoni has stat superiority over Imran as a captain ,that is why Dhoni is best amongst two ! Cricket isnt perceived in that way. If it is then why u don't recognize Shakib as a better all rounder than Imran and Kapil as by stat Shakib as surpassed them ?

Amla and Viv played in different era as far as ODI cricket is concerned with different rules. We’re not speaking of individual stats, we are speaking of Dhoni and Imran’s success as captains. It’s about matches won, tournaments won, and overall success rate.

You are mixing up player’s individual stats and comparing it with the success rate of captains. That’s not how it works.

 

[Surya Kiran]

Yes, totally agree.

Pakistan's cricket suffered a lot because of this culture and talent syndrome. No matter how much confidence and winning mentality you have, unless you have the skills to back it up, no team will succeed.

Example, Indian Team travelling overseas without a bowling attack that can take 20 wickets could only compete sometimes and at other times it lost very badly.

Skill followed by temperament and a good culture should be template for a team sport.

Virat and in the past Dhoni have trained very hard and prepared well to be successful.

 

[Surya Kiran]

He is wrong. He is trying to tell you that since Pakistan simply is not good enough to win since Imran left. Well Pakistan got to the final of 99 World Cup, bested India in India in world test championship, won world t20, won ICCT, played one world t 20 final.

If we had weak leadership or dearth of talent, we won’t get there. Also let me remind Sanjay our away test record is since Imran was still better than India’s till we stopped playing at home which of course affected our cricket a lot.

I refuse to accept his analysis. Our issues are simple:
Poor professionalism and lack of grooming of younger players. We don’t have dearth of talent.. and we absolutely have no dearth of good leaders.

Since Imran, we had Wasim, waqar, misbah, younis and now Sarfaraz who in my opinion were all good leaders and motivated their players.

Afridi wasn’t bad either. Neither was Butt but he was a cheat.

very valid points on professionalism and no pathway programs for grooming upcoming cricketers

 

[Surya Kiran]

This cult following of his and his leadership has been detrimental to Pakistan cricket

As they are always hoping for miracles rather than trying to prepare to be the best

 

[Surya Kiran]

Dhoni surpassed Imran as a leader and captain long ago, and Kohli is a World Cup title away. Imran’s captaincy exploits are overhyped because hero-worshipping is very strong in Pakistan, and he is a messiah type figure.

Not winning the 1987 World Cup is a big stain on his legacy. That World Cup was for Pakistan was the 2011 World Cup was for India, and Dhoni would have never surrendered the 1987 World Cup if he was leading Pakistan.

This cult following of his and his leadership has been detrimental to Pakistan cricket

As they are always hoping for miracles rather than trying to prepare to be the best

 

[KingKhanWC]

This cult following of his and his leadership has been detrimental to Pakistan cricket

As they are always hoping for miracles rather than trying to prepare to be the best

He will always have a cult following due to the stature of the man but please do explain who and when did what and caused issues for Paksitan because of this? I read some rubbish on here so wont judge until you expand but this seems the worst post of the year.

 

[Surya Kiran]

He will always have a cult following due to the stature of the man but please do explain who and when did what and caused issues for Paksitan because of this? I read some rubbish on here so wont judge until you expand but this seems the worst post of the year.

Sure KingKhanWC

I am only talking about his cult following of his leadership and captaincy style among few ex cricketers like Shoaib Akhtar saying many times on TV that had Imran been his captain he would have been something else. But there can only be one Imran Khan and always revisiting his captaincy style and comparing it with every player that has captained Pakistan since then I think is unfair and not the right thing to do.

One has to make do with whatever options are available and try to work best with them. Another example is of him picking up players like Inzamam, Wasim Akram. But this way of picking up players may not always work because Imran had a good eye for talent and current chief selector may not have such a keen eye for talent as Imran.

It is better to have a good domestic set up and trust it enough to produce quality players rather than expecting to see a miracle by finding a Wasim Akram and Inzamam every decade.


Today is my first day here and loving this interaction with fans. Hope my new posts will be articulated in a better manner to explain my side of things.

Peace

 

[KingKhanWC]

Sure KingKhanWC

I am only talking about his cult following of his leadership and captaincy style among few ex cricketers like Shoaib Akhtar saying many times on TV that had Imran been his captain he would have been something else. But there can only be one Imran Khan and always revisiting his captaincy style and comparing it with every player that has captained Pakistan since then I think is unfair and not the right thing to do.

One has to make do with whatever options are available and try to work best with them. Another example is of him picking up players like Inzamam, Wasim Akram. But this way of picking up players may not always work because Imran had a good eye for talent and current chief selector may not have such a keen eye for talent as Imran.

It is better to have a good domestic set up and trust it enough to produce quality players rather than expecting to see a miracle by finding a Wasim Akram and Inzamam every decade.


Today is my first day here and loving this interaction with fans. Hope my new posts will be articulated in a better manner to explain my side of things.

Peace

Thanks and welcome to the forum, please do continue to post as often as possible, different views are great.

I understand your point, players, coaches, managment looking back to the times of Imran. Sure he's gone and it's time to move on but what Imran did cannot be copied by anyone at the moment because he was given a lot of power due to this fame and brilliance as a cricketer. The PCB at the time knew making him captain might alter their usual way of doing things but he will bring a lot of freshness and new ideas to the team. Imran dropped Majid Khan which even today would be unthinkable for any new captain to drop one of your best batsmen over recent years but this move was crucial in getting Imran new found respect, anyone who can drop a huge name + relative will be fair to everyone else. Since then most players did what he told them to do. Now the captain doesn't have the same power, the selectors have it all. If Sarfraz said to the selectors he doesn't want X player, they would not entertain him if he is a recent hero and still playing. Things have certainly changed in this regard.

I agree with you in imporving the domestic circuit, all fans feel the same. But there is no harm in seeing a great talent and giving him a chance, if not in the first XI but in the A team etc. Imran did this after some players were bought to his attention, he didn't find them on the streets. Imran had the power to bring them in the team and it only worked because he was the captain so could do what he liked with new talent he gave a chance to. This wont happen now because again selectors have the power and our captain is not Imran.

There are many old fashioned traditions in the Pakistani cricket culture which should be changed but emulating Imran is not one of them. Nobody will ever emulate him and no captain will be given the power he was, so it's just not possible. Those who dream of emulating him are only just dreaming and yes they should stop dreaming but I dont believe this mentality has held the team back. Lack of proffesionalism in all areas from fitness to selecting is the issue and of course domestic cricket.

 

[Slog]

If winning the World Cup at home is a piece of cake, the so-called greatest Asian captain Imran would have done it in 1987. No one told him to choke against Australia in the semifinal in Lahore.

Imran Khan choked in the 1987 WC semi? What are you smoking?

3 wickets and a fifty.

Imran was a superior Test captain to Dhoni and it is borne by the fact that he remained unbeaten home and away to the greatest Test team of all time. That’s his captaincy legacy. s.

Anyone with cricketing knowledge will tell you that drawing West Indies in those days Is one of the great cricketing achievements.

The World Cup victory was just cherry on top from him and is certainly not what defines his captaincy tenure for the cricketing purists. What it did do is to make him more beloved for the common Pakistani on the street and gave him a fairytale ending similar to Sachin Tendulkar and the 2011 World Cup. But his place as one of the great captains of the game was decided well before 1992 World Cup similar to how Sachin’s place as among the greatest of all times was decided before his 2011 World Cup victory.

To be honest Imran khan doesn’t need any certificates from anyone here about his captaincy legacy and credentials when almost every great of the game accepts his place in the pantheon of great cricketing leaders without any argument. In fact whenever the greats of the game pick their All Time Elevens, Imran Khan is a recurring feature and is often chosen as captain. And whenever the greats from 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s talk about Imran they focus on his Test exploits and his WC 1992 victory is a footnote almost.

 

[Surya Kiran]

Thanks and welcome to the forum, please do continue to post as often as possible, different views are great.

I understand your point, players, coaches, managment looking back to the times of Imran. Sure he's gone and it's time to move on but what Imran did cannot be copied by anyone at the moment because he was given a lot of power due to this fame and brilliance as a cricketer. The PCB at the time knew making him captain might alter their usual way of doing things but he will bring a lot of freshness and new ideas to the team. Imran dropped Majid Khan which even today would be unthinkable for any new captain to drop one of your best batsmen over recent years but this move was crucial in getting Imran new found respect, anyone who can drop a huge name + relative will be fair to everyone else. Since then most players did what he told them to do. Now the captain doesn't have the same power, the selectors have it all. If Sarfraz said to the selectors he doesn't want X player, they would not entertain him if he is a recent hero and still playing. Things have certainly changed in this regard.

I agree with you in imporving the domestic circuit, all fans feel the same. But there is no harm in seeing a great talent and giving him a chance, if not in the first XI but in the A team etc. Imran did this after some players were bought to his attention, he didn't find them on the streets. Imran had the power to bring them in the team and it only worked because he was the captain so could do what he liked with new talent he gave a chance to. This wont happen now because again selectors have the power and our captain is not Imran.

There are many old fashioned traditions in the Pakistani cricket culture which should be changed but emulating Imran is not one of them. Nobody will ever emulate him and no captain will be given the power he was, so it's just not possible. Those who dream of emulating him are only just dreaming and yes they should stop dreaming but I dont believe this mentality has held the team back. Lack of proffesionalism in all areas from fitness to selecting is the issue and of course domestic cricket.

Thanks for that warm welcome. Pakistan cricket has always intrigued me on how it works and throws up talent from time to time.

I was just trying to draw parallels with other sub continent teams. Sri Lanka still do it and give some random player a chance out of nowhere. Bangladesh try to blood them in early. India on the other hand is trying to get the delicate balance between natural talent and making players go through the grind. Having played in different age groups and interacting with current Indian management, the sense I get is that if a fast bowler is spotted, give him more opportunities at the higher level but a batsman has to go through all the rigours

Example - Khaleel Ahmed and Barinder Sran as they bring variety as left armers, Umesh is an old example of this policy...Shreyas & Shubman Gill are batting examples.

Coming back to Pakistan, I thought they turned into a new leaf after putting emphasis on fitness and dropping players because they didn't fare up to the fitness levels set as standard.

Do you thinking changing the domestic structure from department teams to provincial teams will benefit Pakistan cricket going forward?

 

[Pakpak]

Imran Khan choked in the 1987 WC semi? What are you smoking?

3 wickets and a fifty.

Imran was a superior Test captain to Dhoni and it is borne by the fact that he remained unbeaten home and away to the greatest Test team of all time. That’s his captaincy legacy. s.

Anyone with cricketing knowledge will tell you that drawing West Indies in those days Is one of the great cricketing achievements.

The World Cup victory was just cherry on top from him and is certainly not what defines his captaincy tenure for the cricketing purists. What it did do is to make him more beloved for the common Pakistani on the street and gave him a fairytale ending similar to Sachin Tendulkar and the 2011 World Cup. But his place as one of the great captains of the game was decided well before 1992 World Cup similar to how Sachin’s place as among the greatest of all times was decided before his 2011 World Cup victory.

To be honest Imran khan doesn’t need any certificates from anyone here about his captaincy legacy and credentials when almost every great of the game accepts his place in the pantheon of great cricketing leaders without any argument. In fact whenever the greats of the game pick their All Time Elevens, Imran Khan is a recurring feature and is often chosen as captain. And whenever the greats from 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s talk about Imran they focus on his Test exploits and his WC 1992 victory is a footnote almost.

Even when you listen to BBC's commentary, every single game at some point some ex-player whether from England or NZ will rave about the man.

 

[Technics 1210]

Just like Pakistan is searching for the next Imran Khan, India is searching for the next Sachin Tendulkar (though arguably have found him in Virat), Australia is searching for the next Shane Warne, and so on.

Said players are not considered great merely based on achievements or stats, but the fact they have set the bar so high, that if a player wants to be even considered a great, they must aspire to said greatest.

Do you think Imran Khan was the player/leader because of the domestic setup in Pakistan? No, it was primarily do to his education. The right education can provide an astute insight, which is also why Imran Khan had an eye for talent.

 

[Technics 1210]

Imran Khan choked in the 1987 WC semi? What are you smoking?

3 wickets and a fifty.

Imran was a superior Test captain to Dhoni and it is borne by the fact that he remained unbeaten home and away to the greatest Test team of all time. That’s his captaincy legacy. s.

Anyone with cricketing knowledge will tell you that drawing West Indies in those days Is one of the great cricketing achievements.

The World Cup victory was just cherry on top from him and is certainly not what defines his captaincy tenure for the cricketing purists. What it did do is to make him more beloved for the common Pakistani on the street and gave him a fairytale ending similar to Sachin Tendulkar and the 2011 World Cup. But his place as one of the great captains of the game was decided well before 1992 World Cup similar to how Sachin’s place as among the greatest of all times was decided before his 2011 World Cup victory.

To be honest Imran khan doesn’t need any certificates from anyone here about his captaincy legacy and credentials when almost every great of the game accepts his place in the pantheon of great cricketing leaders without any argument. In fact whenever the greats of the game pick their All Time Elevens, Imran Khan is a recurring feature and is often chosen as captain. And whenever the greats from 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s talk about Imran they focus on his Test exploits and his WC 1992 victory is a footnote almost.

You just yorked him.

POTW.

 

[Technics 1210]

Dhoni surpassed Imran as a leader and captain long ago, and Kohli is a World Cup title away. Imran’s captaincy exploits are overhyped because hero-worshipping is very strong in Pakistan, and he is a messiah type figure.

Not winning the 1987 World Cup is a big stain on his legacy. That World Cup was for Pakistan was the 2011 World Cup was for India, and Dhoni would have never surrendered the 1987 World Cup if he was leading Pakistan.

You are once again posting for the sake of arguing, because if anyone knows anything, you despise Imran Khan the politician, and your hate for him is pouring into his achievements in cricket. So much so you have stated you blame Imran Khan for the 0-7 WC streak against India. So my question to you is, why did you vote for him? (You can answer in another thread).

Is there no end to your bitterness and hatred?

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

I was not talking about Imran's individual performance in the 1987 semifinal. He played very well (although he got out without finishing the job), but I was talking about his failure to lead his team to a World Cup final in spite of playing the semifinal at home. A poster downplayed Dhoni's 2011 World Cup triumph because it came in India/SC conditions, and I replied that if it was so easy to win at home, Imran would have done it in 1987.

There is no doubt that Imran is Pakistan's greatest captain, but his captaincy exploits are overstated on PP, because of two major reasons.

(1) in his era, players and teams were not micro-analysed because there was no Internet and statistics were not easily accessible. People focused on positives more than negatives, and he is not the only player of his era to benefit from it.

(2) he has glorified his legacy because of his own vanity and pride. His humongous ego has helped him succeed in life, but it has also made him a messiah type figure for the people of Pakistan who lose all objectivity and neutrality when it comes to discussing him.

People talk about Imran drawing with West Indies multiple times, but they ignore the fact that he lost a Test to Sri Lanka in 1986 when they were proper minnows. They also ignore the fact that he failed to beat a very weak Indian team at home in 1989-1990, and he also failed to win in Australia when they were not a strong side in the 80's, and were surely weaker than Pakistan. He won a Test in West Indies, but that came against a relatively inexperienced attack and without Viv Richards in the lineup. But, since there was no internet, no social media and no PP, such microanalysis did not happen.

With all said and done, he only has 14 Test wins as captain, which are absolutely nothing. People defend it by stating the draws were common in those days, but Miandad won the same number of matches as Imran in 14 less matches, even though he also captained in an era where draws were common. For the most part of his captaincy, Pakistan were the second strongest Test team in the world, but Imran only lead them to one Test series win away from home. Surely, as the GOAT Asian Captain, he should have been more successful?

Speaking of the impact of social media, had Imran played the 1992 semifinal innings today, he would be labeled selfish etc., because his innings was no better than Misbah's Mohali. Unfortunately for Misbah, the likes Umar, Afridi and Razzaq couldn't do what Inzamam, Miandad and Moin did.

The second reason why his legacy is glorified more than it deserves is because of his narcissism, which peaked in 1989 when Australia toured Pakistan. He refused to play because the weather was too hot, and Miandad had to lead the team in heat. Do you think any cricketer today can pull off a stunt like that? Not even Kohli can excuse himself from a Test series because the weather is not to his liking.

Imran's vanity was also on display in the post match presentation in the 1992 final, where he focused more on his hospital than his World Cup winning players, and he has cashed his 1992 World Cup to become the PM. You mentioned that his legacy as captain was build on his performance vs West Indies, but the legacy of a cricketer or a captain is not determined by the purists, nerds and geeks of the game who are in the minority.

Imran Khan because Imran Khan for the public of Pakistan because of the World Cup trophy and white cornered tiger t-shirt that influenced the psyche of our cricket and our nation. The majority don't even remember or care about his exploits against the West Indies, because when they think of Imran, they think of the 1992 World Cup. If purists determined the legacy of a cricketer, Steyn would be a bigger bowler than Wasim or McGrath today, but his legacy in the real world is nowhere near.

Kapil Dev produced a bigger cornered tigers moment when he beat the great West Indies team twice including in the final to win the 1983 World Cup. He also won the World Championship of Cricket 1985, which was essentially a Champions Trophy, but the difference between him and Imran was that he was not an egomaniac. He didn't use his trophies to portray himself as a saviour for India.

It is perfectly fine to rate Imran higher than the likes of Dhoni/Kohli, but to claim that there are not comparable and he will always be above them reeks of hero worshipping. Also, the notion that Imran makes the all-time XIs of Australian, English, Caribbean cricketers etc. is not entirely true. He is frequently missing from such lineups and he is almost always ranked below Tendulkar in a greatest cricketers of all time list.

Besides, people take great pride in Imran getting named in such XIs, but pay no heed to Wasim, who has claimed that Dhoni has caught up with Imran. His opinion is rubbished because he is supposedly pleasing his Indian fanbase, but the opinions of those who are in awe of Imran is supposed to be extremely neutral, and not influenced by the bias of having played against him.

Dhoni has won everything that is there to be won in every format, while Kohli is winning Test matches at a ridiculous rate, and he has also won a Test series in Australia. Yes in this day and age, it is easy to downplay it because Australia didn't have Smith and Warner, but the same is not applied to Imran who won a Test in West Indies where Viv Richards did not play and the bowling attack was inexperienced.

At this rate, Kohli will most probably surpass G. Smith as the captain with most Test wins, and at the moment, he has the best W/L ratio in history (among captains with 40+ Tests) after captains like Lloyd, S. Waugh and Ponting, who led legendary sides. Yes this is a result-oriented era, but that also means that is easier to lose matches as well, and maintaining a W/L ratio of 2.60, which has been bested by only 3 captains, is not an achievement that deserves to be understated.

What does a captain like Kohli need to do to a surpass a captain with only 14 Test wins, only 1 Test series win outside Pakistan and including a defeat to a minnow (imagine the uproar of Kohli loses a Test in Ireland or Zimbabwe)?

 

[Mamoon]

You are once again posting for the sake of arguing, because if anyone knows anything, you despise Imran Khan the politician, and your hate for him is pouring into his achievements in cricket. So much so you have stated you blame Imran Khan for the 0-7 WC streak against India. So my question to you is, why did you vote for him? (You can answer in another thread).

Is there no end to your bitterness and hatred?

If I despised Imran as a cricketer, I wouldn't consider him as Pakistan's greatest cricketer and captain. However, I don't agree that he is the greatest player of all time or the greatest captain of all time/asian captain of all time, myths that are quite common on PP.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

I was not talking about Imran's individual performance in the 1987 semifinal. He played very well (although he got out without finishing the job), but I was talking about his failure to lead his team to a World Cup final in spite of playing the semifinal at home. A poster downplayed Dhoni's 2011 World Cup triumph because it came in India/SC conditions, and I replied that if it was so easy to win at home, Imran would have done it in 1987.

There is no doubt that Imran is Pakistan's greatest captain, but his captaincy exploits are overstated on PP, because of two major reasons.

(1) in his era, players and teams were not micro-analysed because there was no Internet and statistics were not easily accessible. People focused on positives more than negatives, and he is not the only player of his era to benefit from it.

(2) he has glorified his legacy because of his own vanity and pride. His humongous ego has helped him succeed in life, but it has also made him a messiah type figure for the people of Pakistan who lose all objectivity and neutrality when it comes to discussing him.

People talk about Imran drawing with West Indies multiple times, but they ignore the fact that he lost a Test to Sri Lanka in 1986 when they were proper minnows. They also ignore the fact that he failed to beat a very weak Indian team at home in 1989-1990, and he also failed to win in Australia when they were not a strong side in the 80's, and were surely weaker than Pakistan. He won a Test in West Indies, but that came against a relatively inexperienced attack and without Viv Richards in the lineup. But, since there was no internet, no social media and no PP, such microanalysis did not happen.

With all said and done, he only has 14 Test wins as captain, which are absolutely nothing. People defend it by stating the draws were common in those days, but Miandad won the same number of matches as Imran in 14 less matches, even though he also captained in an era where draws were common. For the most part of his captaincy, Pakistan were the second strongest Test team in the world, but Imran only lead them to one Test series win away from home. Surely, as the GOAT Asian Captain, he should have been more successful?

Speaking of the impact of social media, had Imran played the 1992 semifinal innings today, he would be labeled selfish etc., because his innings was no better than Misbah's Mohali. Unfortunately for Misbah, the likes Umar, Afridi and Razzaq couldn't do what Inzamam, Miandad and Moin did.

The second reason why his legacy is glorified more than it deserves is because of his narcissism, which peaked in 1989 when Australia toured Pakistan. He refused to play because the weather was too hot, and Miandad had to lead the team in heat. Do you think any cricketer today can pull off a stunt like that? Not even Kohli can excuse himself from a Test series because the weather is not to his liking.

Imran's vanity was also on display in the post match presentation in the 1992 final, where he focused more on his hospital than his World Cup winning players, and he has cashed his 1992 World Cup to become the PM. You mentioned that his legacy as captain was build on his performance vs West Indies, but the legacy of a cricketer or a captain is not determined by the purists, nerds and geeks of the game who are in the minority.

Imran Khan because Imran Khan for the public of Pakistan because of the World Cup trophy and white cornered tiger t-shirt that influenced the psyche of our cricket and our nation. The majority don't even remember or care about his exploits against the West Indies, because when they think of Imran, they think of the 1992 World Cup. If purists determined the legacy of a cricketer, Steyn would be a bigger bowler than Wasim or McGrath today, but his legacy in the real world is nowhere near.

Kapil Dev produced a bigger cornered tigers moment when he beat the great West Indies team twice including in the final to win the 1983 World Cup. He also won the World Championship of Cricket 1985, which was essentially a Champions Trophy, but the difference between him and Imran was that he was not an egomaniac. He didn't use his trophies to portray himself as a saviour for India.

It is perfectly fine to rate Imran higher than the likes of Dhoni/Kohli, but to claim that there are not comparable and he will always be above them reeks of hero worshipping. Also, the notion that Imran makes the all-time XIs of Australian, English, Caribbean cricketers etc. is not entirely true. He is frequently missing from such lineups and he is almost always ranked below Tendulkar in a greatest cricketers of all time list.

Besides, people take great pride in Imran getting named in such XIs, but pay no heed to Wasim, who has claimed that Dhoni has caught up with Imran. His opinion is rubbished because he is supposedly pleasing his Indian fanbase, but the opinions of those who are in awe of Imran is supposed to be extremely neutral, and not influenced by the bias of having played against him.

Dhoni has won everything that is there to be won in every format, while Kohli is winning Test matches at a ridiculous rate, and he has also won a Test series in Australia. Yes in this day and age, it is easy to downplay it because Australia didn't have Smith and Warner, but the same is not applied to Imran who won a Test in West Indies where Viv Richards did not play and the bowling attack was inexperienced.

At this rate, Kohli will most probably surpass G. Smith as the captain with most Test wins, and at the moment, he has the best W/L ratio in history (among captains with 40+ Tests) after captains like Lloyd, S. Waugh and Ponting, who led legendary sides. Yes this is a result-oriented era, but that also means that is easier to lose matches as well, and maintaining a W/L ratio of 2.60, which has been bested by only 3 captains, is not an achievement that deserves to be understated.

What does a captain like Kohli need to do to a surpass a captain with only 14 Test wins, only 1 Test series win outside Pakistan and including a defeat to a minnow (imagine the uproar of Kohli loses a Test in Ireland or Zimbabwe)?

Correction: he wasn’t the captain when India won the WCC 1985, but my point with respect to the 1983 World Cup remains.

 

[shaz619]

Imran Khan choked in the 1987 WC semi? What are you smoking?

3 wickets and a fifty.

Imran was a superior Test captain to Dhoni and it is borne by the fact that he remained unbeaten home and away to the greatest Test team of all time. That’s his captaincy legacy. s.

Anyone with cricketing knowledge will tell you that drawing West Indies in those days Is one of the great cricketing achievements.

The World Cup victory was just cherry on top from him and is certainly not what defines his captaincy tenure for the cricketing purists. What it did do is to make him more beloved for the common Pakistani on the street and gave him a fairytale ending similar to Sachin Tendulkar and the 2011 World Cup. But his place as one of the great captains of the game was decided well before 1992 World Cup similar to how Sachin’s place as among the greatest of all times was decided before his 2011 World Cup victory.

To be honest Imran khan doesn’t need any certificates from anyone here about his captaincy legacy and credentials when almost every great of the game accepts his place in the pantheon of great cricketing leaders without any argument. In fact whenever the greats of the game pick their All Time Elevens, Imran Khan is a recurring feature and is often chosen as captain. And whenever the greats from 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s talk about Imran they focus on his Test exploits and his WC 1992 victory is a footnote almost.

POTW

Bah gawd Sloggy with a big upper cut

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION]

I was not talking about Imran's individual performance in the 1987 semifinal. He played very well (although he got out without finishing the job), but I was talking about his failure to lead his team to a World Cup final in spite of playing the semifinal at home. A poster downplayed Dhoni's 2011 World Cup triumph because it came in India/SC conditions, and I replied that if it was so easy to win at home, Imran would have done it in 1987.

There is no doubt that Imran is Pakistan's greatest captain, but his captaincy exploits are overstated on PP, because of two major reasons.

(1) in his era, players and teams were not micro-analysed because there was no Internet and statistics were not easily accessible. People focused on positives more than negatives, and he is not the only player of his era to benefit from it.

(2) he has glorified his legacy because of his own vanity and pride. His humongous ego has helped him succeed in life, but it has also made him a messiah type figure for the people of Pakistan who lose all objectivity and neutrality when it comes to discussing him.

People talk about Imran drawing with West Indies multiple times, but they ignore the fact that he lost a Test to Sri Lanka in 1986 when they were proper minnows. They also ignore the fact that he failed to beat a very weak Indian team at home in 1989-1990, and he also failed to win in Australia when they were not a strong side in the 80's, and were surely weaker than Pakistan. He won a Test in West Indies, but that came against a relatively inexperienced attack and without Viv Richards in the lineup. But, since there was no internet, no social media and no PP, such microanalysis did not happen.

With all said and done, he only has 14 Test wins as captain, which are absolutely nothing. People defend it by stating the draws were common in those days, but Miandad won the same number of matches as Imran in 14 less matches, even though he also captained in an era where draws were common. For the most part of his captaincy, Pakistan were the second strongest Test team in the world, but Imran only lead them to one Test series win away from home. Surely, as the GOAT Asian Captain, he should have been more successful?

Speaking of the impact of social media, had Imran played the 1992 semifinal innings today, he would be labeled selfish etc., because his innings was no better than Misbah's Mohali. Unfortunately for Misbah, the likes Umar, Afridi and Razzaq couldn't do what Inzamam, Miandad and Moin did.

The second reason why his legacy is glorified more than it deserves is because of his narcissism, which peaked in 1989 when Australia toured Pakistan. He refused to play because the weather was too hot, and Miandad had to lead the team in heat. Do you think any cricketer today can pull off a stunt like that? Not even Kohli can excuse himself from a Test series because the weather is not to his liking.

Imran's vanity was also on display in the post match presentation in the 1992 final, where he focused more on his hospital than his World Cup winning players, and he has cashed his 1992 World Cup to become the PM. You mentioned that his legacy as captain was build on his performance vs West Indies, but the legacy of a cricketer or a captain is not determined by the purists, nerds and geeks of the game who are in the minority.

Imran Khan because Imran Khan for the public of Pakistan because of the World Cup trophy and white cornered tiger t-shirt that influenced the psyche of our cricket and our nation. The majority don't even remember or care about his exploits against the West Indies, because when they think of Imran, they think of the 1992 World Cup. If purists determined the legacy of a cricketer, Steyn would be a bigger bowler than Wasim or McGrath today, but his legacy in the real world is nowhere near.

Kapil Dev produced a bigger cornered tigers moment when he beat the great West Indies team twice including in the final to win the 1983 World Cup. He also won the World Championship of Cricket 1985, which was essentially a Champions Trophy, but the difference between him and Imran was that he was not an egomaniac. He didn't use his trophies to portray himself as a saviour for India.

It is perfectly fine to rate Imran higher than the likes of Dhoni/Kohli, but to claim that there are not comparable and he will always be above them reeks of hero worshipping. Also, the notion that Imran makes the all-time XIs of Australian, English, Caribbean cricketers etc. is not entirely true. He is frequently missing from such lineups and he is almost always ranked below Tendulkar in a greatest cricketers of all time list.

Besides, people take great pride in Imran getting named in such XIs, but pay no heed to Wasim, who has claimed that Dhoni has caught up with Imran. His opinion is rubbished because he is supposedly pleasing his Indian fanbase, but the opinions of those who are in awe of Imran is supposed to be extremely neutral, and not influenced by the bias of having played against him.

Dhoni has won everything that is there to be won in every format, while Kohli is winning Test matches at a ridiculous rate, and he has also won a Test series in Australia. Yes in this day and age, it is easy to downplay it because Australia didn't have Smith and Warner, but the same is not applied to Imran who won a Test in West Indies where Viv Richards did not play and the bowling attack was inexperienced.

At this rate, Kohli will most probably surpass G. Smith as the captain with most Test wins, and at the moment, he has the best W/L ratio in history (among captains with 40+ Tests) after captains like Lloyd, S. Waugh and Ponting, who led legendary sides. Yes this is a result-oriented era, but that also means that is easier to lose matches as well, and maintaining a W/L ratio of 2.60, which has been bested by only 3 captains, is not an achievement that deserves to be understated.

What does a captain like Kohli need to do to a surpass a captain with only 14 Test wins, only 1 Test series win outside Pakistan and including a defeat to a minnow (imagine the uproar of Kohli loses a Test in Ireland or Zimbabwe)?

This is mostly a wall of text. Dhoni is a great captain and has every ICC tournament in the bag. But he is also the captain who lost 8 consecutive tests away and had multiple series whitewashes to his name. His highs have been coupled with some of the most embarrassing lows there can be for any self respecting captain in the Test game.

Anyways i don’t know who said the two aren’t comparable because that’s stupid but Dhoni or Kohli will surpass Imran as captain when the experts of the game start saying as such en-masse. No one, including most Indians, put Kapil and Imran even in the same category as captains. Also I don’t look to the guys on the street for cricketing opinions because then for most Afridi is also the greatest thing since sliced bread bread. Popularity and place in cricketing legacy are different things.

 

[MenInG]

55 year's old today - Reasonably good commentator in my view.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Pakistan have been doing ok.

In all honesty, they have had for over a decade a very mediocre talent pool and the results they have had were quite expected. I for one do not recall many instances when Pakistan were expected to win but did not.

One good thing they have done is that they have still continued to punch above their weight in test cricket and in ICC tournaments which is a tribute to their really strong and loyal fan base as well as a very harsh local media which still expects them to perform at a level they realistically can no longer match.

This has been a rather long transition phase. We all expoected Pakistan to turn things around, especially since PSL came up to help with the finances. Maybe it will take few more years but i definitely do expect Pakistan to become Top 3 level cricket nation very soon.

Good luck!!

 

[MesonK]

So how many genes India was missing when it ended the last decade with worst % SENA losses then Pakistan ... ?

I have discovered something about Indian cricket fans and experts ... they live on perception instead of actual numbers.

 

[MesonK]

Pakistan have been doing ok.

In all honesty, they have had for over a decade a very mediocre talent pool and the results they have had were quite expected. I for one do not recall many instances when Pakistan were expected to win but did not.

One good thing they have done is that they have still continued to punch above their weight in test cricket and in ICC tournaments which is a tribute to their really strong and loyal fan base as well as a very harsh local media which still expects them to perform at a level they realistically can no longer match.

This has been a rather long transition phase. We all expoected Pakistan to turn things around, especially since PSL came up to help with the finances. Maybe it will take few more years but i definitely do expect Pakistan to become Top 3 level cricket nation very soon.

Good luck!!

You should base your words on real numbers not perception. Pakistan ended last decade with better % SENA tests win record then india and almost on par overall record (Compare Misbah-Pak vs Kohli-India era).

We are no world champions, we never were, considering the dangerous risky brand of cricket we always have played with express pacers and hard hitting unreliable batsmen. But even today, on our day we can destroy any side to dust, something that no similar team is capable of. Ask the last WC's finalists or Kohli's India.

Pakistan is easily worlds 4th greatest team right now which can sting the above three on its day.

 

[Bhaijaan]

You should base your words on real numbers not perception. Pakistan ended last decade with better % SENA tests win record then india and almost on par overall record (Compare Misbah-Pak vs Kohli-India era).

We are no world champions, we never were, considering the dangerous risky brand of cricket we always have played with express pacers and hard hitting unreliable batsmen. But even today, on our day we can destroy any side to dust, something that no similar team is capable of. Ask the last WC's finalists or Kohli's India.

Pakistan is easily worlds 4th greatest team right now which can sting the above three on its day.

You literally said what i said.

Its just that you don't hear yourself in a condascending manner when you say Pakistan is at best 4th best team in the world which is still mediocre.

But when i say the same without beating about the bush, you feel hurt because of the tri coloured flag next to my username.

What is so great about being the 4th best team in a game played by like 3-4 major nations, 2 small nations and 2-3 island sized nations smaller than some of the provinces in India?

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Pakistan is definitely behind Ind, Aus, Nz and Eng. So Pakistan is no. 5 at best.

 

[MesonK]

Pakistan is definitely behind Ind, Aus, Nz and Eng. So Pakistan is no. 5 at best.

Please explain to me how is Pakistan behind India in tests when two sides have never collided in past decade ? Both sides ended last decade with pretty similar overall record.

 

[MesonK]

You literally said what i said.

Its just that you don't hear yourself in a condascending manner when you say Pakistan is at best 4th best team in the world which is still mediocre.

But when i say the same without beating about the bush, you feel hurt because of the tri coloured flag next to my username.

What is so great about being the 4th best team in a game played by like 3-4 major nations, 2 small nations and 2-3 island sized nations smaller than some of the provinces in India?

Being 4th greatest team in the world with the capability of destroying top 3 on its day is still pretty good considering that we started the decade with loss key players to fixing, no home cricket and series of premature retirements. We could have become another WI, SA but we survived and maintained a respectable position in world of cricket.

Talking about size of India as a country, should it not be a world beating side with 5 WCs and 5 CTs to its name by now, how come it loses to nations with population equal to quarter of Karachi.

 

[Mesozoic]

Please explain to me how is Pakistan behind India in tests when two sides have never collided in past decade ?

Even Zimbabwe haven't "collided" with England since the early 2000s. Doesn't mean they're not behind them.

Both sides ended last decade with pretty similar overall record.

No they didn't. These are the stats for both in the last decade (2010-19)...

India

W/L Ratio - 1.931
Win% - 52%
Loss% - 27%

Except England , India had a better H2H record against all the teams.

Pakistan

W/L Ratio - 0.891
Win% - 39%
Loss% - 44%

Inferior H2H record against Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and even Sri Lanka.

So please tell me in what world are these considered "pretty similar records"?

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Please explain to me how is Pakistan behind India in tests when two sides have never collided in past decade ? Both sides ended last decade with pretty similar overall record.

I don't think so.

Secondly I was talking about current standing, this is what you posted

Pakistan is easily worlds 4th greatest team right now which can sting the above three on its day.

Right now Pakistan is behind Ind,aus,eng,nz in all three formats of the game

 

[Mahee]

Please explain to me how is Pakistan behind India in tests when two sides have never collided in past decade ? Both sides ended last decade with pretty similar overall record.

IMO, pakistan is the best cricket team in the world....without much support, they were able to win T20 world cup and champions trophy in the last decade....they had also easily defeated australia nz and england in test cricket

 

[MenInG]

From being the tournament's dark horses to eventually becoming strong title favourites - the fortunes of the Babar Azam-led side has changed drastically following Pakistan's historic win over Team India in the ongoing edition of the ICC World T20. Former Indian cricketer Sanjay Manjrekar feels Babar & Co. have somewhat ‘shellshocked’ their fans by putting up a show at the ICC World T20 2021.

Champions in the 2009 edition of the T20 World Cup, Pakistan registered a path-breaking win over Virat Kohli-led Team India side in the ongoing showpiece event. Azam & Co. hammered the Kohli-led side by 10 wickets to record Pakistan's first win over India in World Cup across all formats. Team India's defeat at the hands of arch-rivals Pakistan was also their first 10-wicket rout in the shortest format.

Azam-led Pakistan extended their winning run by upstaging Kane Williamson's New Zealand in their second match of the ICC World T20 2021 at Sharjah. Talking about Pakistan's emphatic wins over India and New Zealand in the T20 World Cup, ex-Indian cricketer Manjrekar opined that the Green Army has surprised everyone with their dominant run in the showpiece event.

"Pakistan is on a golden run. Who would've thought that. Their fans would be somewhat shellshocked to see their team being so consistent. There have been a couple of nervy chases, though not against India. They're obviously favourites against Namibia," Manjrekar said in a video shared by the former cricketer on Instagram.

Pakistan's memorable wins over India and New Zealand were followed by an impressive five-wicket win against Afghanistan. The Azam-led side is set to become the first team to have secured a berth in the semi-finals from Group 2. A win over minnows Namibia on Wednesday will put Azam-led Pakistan in the driving seat to top their group.

"Pakistan's bowling is also looking fantastic. Their spinners in Imad Wasim and Shadab Khan are capable spinners. And that is the thing about Pakistan, they are not very highly skilled or have classical actions, but they are very street smart bowlers. They know where to put the ball and don't get hit. They know how to survive in this kind of a format," Manjrekar added.

https://www.timesnownews.com/sports...ar-azam-led-sides-golden-run-at-t20-wc/828797

 

[Mas-LFC]

Pakistan winning gene is back. Playing properly with the right attitude in this T20s. Still need to see more in ODI's.

 

[iniqbal223]

Sanjay Manjrekar is the worst commentator; was a much worse batsman (played for India just because of his dad)

He is biased commentator

 

[MenInG]

Happy Birthday Manjrekar!

Born: 12 July 1965 (age 57 years), Mangaluru, India