Should Haider Ali debut in the Test series against England?

[Abdullah719]

He has impressed in all forms of cricket over the past year or so and is now with the Test squad.

In his favor, the argument is that he's in form. Just hit a fifty in the practice game where the scores have been relatively low. Also, the other two contenders for the batting slots, i.e., Fawad Alam and Iftikhar Ahmed, haven't done a lot so far.

What goes against him is that he's still just 19. He's only had one season of domestic cricket. Additionally, England is a difficult place to debut especially for young batsmen.

Thoughts?

 

[Afhan Ali]

No, he should not.
Let him play t20 and ODI and another 1st class season.

 

[Saj]

It would be a huge risk, but the question that has to be asked is, will he do any worse than the likes of Fawad Alam or Iftikhar Ahmed who could scratch around for 10 or 15 runs, whilst this lad could come in and score runs quickly.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

Too early for him. It will either work or backfire. Misbah is not known to take risks.

Ideally you would have him debuting in Pakistan to make it easier for him. Also he hasn't played much FC and we all remember how tough Babar Azam had it in Test cricket till 2018 something. Batting in tests is all about temperament and mental straighten which only be built by batting for hours.

Bowlers usually do well at a young age, but bats need hours of practice to improve their batting temperament.

 

[Markhor]

Definitely not. I know Pakistan are incompetent at carefully managing youngsters but this would be another level of insanity to debut Haider Ali in a Test in England.

On the back of what ? A fifty in Derby playing amongst his mates, one FC season, a season of PSL, and his U19 reputation ?

Yes I'm desperate to see the end of Azhar and Shafiq, but that's not an excuse to rush Haider. Let him find his feet in white ball cricket first.

 

[angrypathan]

No, needs at least another season of FC cricket. I like the idea of having him around the squad, especially now when there's no cricket going on back home, but ideally he should play another complete season of FC cricket before debuting in any format.

 

[shamaan]

Play him in the last test if the series has already been decided but if the series is stil on the line I wouldnt play him he needs to stay around the team in tests thou

 

[Forum363]

Definitely not. I know Pakistan are incompetent at carefully managing youngsters but this would be another level of insanity to debut Haider Ali in a Test in England.

On the back of what ? A fifty in Derby playing amongst his mates, one FC season, a season of PSL, and his U19 reputation ?

Yes I'm desperate to see the end of Azhar and Shafiq, but that's not an excuse to rush Haider. Let him find his feet in white ball cricket first.

What were Shaheen and Naseem’s credentials before they played Tests?

If you’re good enough, you’re old enough.

You only need to watch Haider for 2 minutes to know this kid is special. Now it’s just about whether he has the work ethic and temperament to make the most of his talent. Giving him a debut against the likes of Broad and Anderson could be the making of him. Even if he fails, he will learn a lot.

 

[Bewal Express]

No. Not ready at this stage and if Archer and Co start to bowl at his throat, a good young talent could be destroyed early in his career.

 

[KingOfPakBreakfast]

Absolutely not. If he played for a SENA team I would absolutely debut him, but not for Pakistan. We have a habit of discarding young men who fail at their first attempt, especially in batting.

Plus there are genuine issues with his technique. He still doesn't play the short ball with confidence. He also has a habit of beating himself up every time he plays and misses. These issues are very solvable through coaching and a domestic season to implement said coaching.

However, in a test, against a swinging ball, and with pressure building, you need a player who's comfortable in his own skin. Haider Ali will be that player in the future, bot he isn't that player right now.

It's best to debut him in the T20s and develop him from there. I get that it's important for us to win this test series but it's more important to handle Haider's development with kid gloves, because if this kid develops properly, Pakistan have a high calibre mainstay for the next decade and a half. If he fails, he'll just be seen as another batting failure, and be stereotyped as a T20 player. That will dent his confidence and his test playing credentials.

 

[Markhor]

What were Shaheen and Naseem’s credentials before they played Tests?

If you’re good enough, you’re old enough.

You only need to watch Haider for 2 minutes to know this kid is special. Now it’s just about whether he has the work ethic and temperament to make the most of his talent. Giving him a debut against the likes of Broad and Anderson could be the making of him. Even if he fails, he will learn a lot.

Both Shaheen and Naseem are highly talented with great promise but neither have a performance of note in a Test series against a top side yet.

I'm sure they will some time in the future as they gain experience, but right now both are still proving themselves in international cricket. Debuting Naseem in Australia of all places on flat pitch against a rampaging David Warner, days after losing his mother, was boneheaded in the extreme when he could've debuted in an easier series vs Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

And now people want to introduce another kid to literally learn on the job in Test cricket based on one FC season on road pitches against the Kookaburra ball, performances in PSL where the ball doesn't swing an inch or kiddy cricket.

This is the problem with our current inept management. On one hand we retain declining seniors way past their prime, well into their 30s like Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq, recall hasbeens like Sohail Khan and Imran Khan.

However on the other hand there's these Hail Mary selections where extremely raw youngsters who haven't learnt their craft in domestic cricket are thrown in "to see what happens" - instead of properly creating a transition plan into international cricket. No wonder so many youngsters have faded away - look at Shadab Khan for example.

Why not let Haider find his feet in white ball cricket first ?

 

[Nasty Naz]

Obviously not for obvious reasons.

 

[shamaan]

What were Shaheen and Naseem’s credentials before they played Tests?

If you’re good enough, you’re old enough.

You only need to watch Haider for 2 minutes to know this kid is special. Now it’s just about whether he has the work ethic and temperament to make the most of his talent. Giving him a debut against the likes of Broad and Anderson could be the making of him. Even if he fails, he will learn a lot.

Naseem and shaheen are bowlers they wont get by a bouncer were batting one blow can end his career

 

[coy0607]

It would be a huge risk, but the question that has to be asked is, will he do any worse than the likes of Fawad Alam or Iftikhar Ahmed who could scratch around for 10 or 15 runs, whilst this lad could come in and score runs quickly.

Saying Fawad and Ifthikar would "scratch around for 10 or 15 runs" is definitely not fair on either of them, especially Fawad. They haven't done well in the practice games, that doesn't mean they're only good for 10-15 runs.

 

[shamaan]

Absolutely not. If he played for a SENA team I would absolutely debut him, but not for Pakistan. We have a habit of discarding young men who fail at their first attempt, especially in batting.

Plus there are genuine issues with his technique. He still doesn't play the short ball with confidence. He also has a habit of beating himself up every time he plays and misses. These issues are very solvable through coaching and a domestic season to implement said coaching.

However, in a test, against a swinging ball, and with pressure building, you need a player who's comfortable in his own skin. Haider Ali will be that player in the future, bot he isn't that player right now.

It's best to debut him in the T20s and develop him from there. I get that it's important for us to win this test series but it's more important to handle Haider's development with kid gloves, because if this kid develops properly, Pakistan have a high calibre mainstay for the next decade and a half. If he fails, he'll just be seen as another batting failure, and be stereotyped as a T20 player. That will dent his confidence and his test playing credentials.

I agree with you he struggles with the bouncer he should start his career in asain conditions sena conditions are hard first up

 

[Kroll]

Too early for him. It will either work or backfire. Misbah is not known to take risks.

Ideally you would have him debuting in Pakistan to make it easier for him. Also he hasn't played much FC and we all remember how tough Babar Azam had it in Test cricket till 2018 something. Batting in tests is all about temperament and mental straighten which only be built by batting for hours.

Bowlers usually do well at a young age, but bats need hours of practice to improve their batting temperament.

He's known for stupid risks like Musa and recalling Shehzad, Umar Akmal.

 

[Forum363]

Naseem and shaheen are bowlers they wont get by a bouncer were batting one blow can end his career

What? Surely teenage BOWLERS are far more likely to get hit and be hurt by one bouncer then a specialist batsman who’s spent years practising against short pitched bowling?

That point makes no sense.

By that logic no young batsman should ever debut early because he may get hit by a bouncer? What logic is that.

Smith got hit with bouncers and got concussion. Shout Australia drop him until he’s 35+ and ready?

 

[Forum363]

He's known for stupid risks like Musa and recalling Shehzad, Umar Akmal.

Selecting irfan out of the blue when’s he’s 37 and can barely walk.

Or picking Usman qadir for an international assignment days after not knowing who the hell he was!! Now that’s risk taking!

 

[shamaan]

Both Shaheen and Naseem are highly talented with great promise but neither have a performance of note in a Test series against a top side yet.

I'm sure they will some time in the future as they gain experience, but right now both are still proving themselves in international cricket. Debuting Naseem in Australia of all places on flat pitch against a rampaging David Warner, days after losing his mother, was boneheaded in the extreme when he could've debuted in an easier series vs Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

And now people want to introduce another kid to literally learn on the job in Test cricket based on one FC season on road pitches against the Kookaburra ball, performances in PSL where the ball doesn't swing an inch or kiddy cricket.

This is the problem with our current inept management. On one hand we retain declining seniors way past their prime, well into their 30s like Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq, recall hasbeens like Sohail Khan and Imran Khan.

However on the other hand there's these Hail Mary selections where extremely raw youngsters who haven't learnt their craft in domestic cricket are thrown in "to see what happens" - instead of properly creating a transition plan into international cricket. No wonder so many youngsters have faded away - look at Shadab Khan for example.

Why not let Haider find his feet in white ball cricket first ?

Yes that's cuz they only played a limited teams who are a top side.

That's what pakistan does it let's the raw talent Express them selfs they start off good and then boil off

 

[shamaan]

What? Surely teenage BOWLERS are far more likely to get hit and be hurt by one bouncer then a specialist batsman who’s spent years practising against short pitched bowling?

That point makes no sense.

By that logic no young batsman should ever debut early because he may get hit by a bouncer? What logic is that.

Smith got hit with bouncers and got concussion. Shout Australia drop him until he’s 35+ and ready?

No becouse tail enders would rather give wicket away that get injuried a batesman is proberly try to take the blow as he trust his 5technique more.the logic is improve your technique which we all see is his weakness then bring him in.

 

[Forum363]

Both Shaheen and Naseem are highly talented with great promise but neither have a performance of note in a Test series against a top side yet.

I'm sure they will some time in the future as they gain experience, but right now both are still proving themselves in international cricket. Debuting Naseem in Australia of all places on flat pitch against a rampaging David Warner, days after losing his mother, was boneheaded in the extreme when he could've debuted in an easier series vs Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

And now people want to introduce another kid to literally learn on the job in Test cricket based on one FC season on road pitches against the Kookaburra ball, performances in PSL where the ball doesn't swing an inch or kiddy cricket.

This is the problem with our current inept management. On one hand we retain declining seniors way past their prime, well into their 30s like Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq, recall hasbeens like Sohail Khan and Imran Khan.

However on the other hand there's these Hail Mary selections where extremely raw youngsters who haven't learnt their craft in domestic cricket are thrown in "to see what happens" - instead of properly creating a transition plan into international cricket. No wonder so many youngsters have faded away - look at Shadab Khan for example.

Why not let Haider find his feet in white ball cricket first ?

What? Shaheen was given a chance in different formats and kept with the team and over time everyone saw the exponential increase in his skills. There’s no guarantee and quite frankly very unlikely that he would have picked up the same skills toiling in rubbish pitches with rubbish coaches against rubbish batsmen in domestic cricket.

Naseem had the toughest debut possible but his strength of character showed through. He bowled his heart out and it will never be harder for him then he had on those tough pitches with a rampaging Warner after a personal loss, like you said. Every other challenge should be easy. And in the next few series he bowled brilliantly - albeit against weaker sides. Perhaps debuting him against those weaker sides would not have allowed to reach that level as quickly. We can’t say for certain if he would have done as well (hat trick/ 5 wicket halls etc) in those home tests without the Australia tests. However we can definitely say the Australian tests did not ruin / break him etc.

 

[Forum363]

No becouse tail enders would rather give wicket away that get injuried a batesman is proberly try to take the blow as he trust his 5technique more.the logic is improve your technique which we all see is his weakness then bring him in.

I don’t think you understand how it works. A tailender doesnt have the skillset and is likely to pick up the length later/ not see the ball / not duck fast enough / miss the ball etc and therefore be injured.

It’s not like they see the bouncer and think, okay I’ll give my wicket away rather than get hurt. Usually a bouncer won’t result in a wicket anyway unless the batsman hits it which the tailender is less likely to do anyway.

 

[shamaan]

I don’t think you understand how it works. A tailender doesnt have the skillset and is likely to pick up the length later/ not see the ball / not duck fast enough / miss the ball etc and therefore be injured.

It’s not like they see the bouncer and think, okay I’ll give my wicket away rather than get hurt. Usually a bouncer won’t result in a wicket anyway unless the batsman hits it which the tailender is less likely to do anyway.

Can you name a tail ender that has been injured by a bouncer or a short ball.

No they swing if it connects it connects if it doesnt and they get caught so what.

 

[Kroll]

Selecting irfan out of the blue when’s he’s 37 and can barely walk.

Or picking Usman qadir for an international assignment days after not knowing who the hell he was!! Now that’s risk taking!

Absolutely, the Irfan one was an extraordinary decision. I have a feeling he's going to play Ifti in the Test. Anything to get his chums in over the best side possible.

 

[Forum363]

Can you name a tail ender that has been injured by a bouncer or a short ball.

No they swing if it connects it connects if it doesnt and they get caught so what.

Anderson got hit with a nasty ball to the side of the neck I think from Cummins a few years ago.

And the South Africa / India series where the Saf bowlers peppered the Indian lower order with bouncers and I think Ashwin and Bumrah were hit.

Normally the teams don’t want or need to bowl bouncers at the tailenders. Plus obviously 95% or more of an innings is played by specialist batsman so they will face bouncers more frequently.

The original point still stands - tailenders are far more likely to be hit with bouncers and get injured as they have less skill. Either way it’s certainly not a reason to not select young batsmen!

 

[Forum363]

Can you name a tail ender that has been injured by a bouncer or a short ball.

No they swing if it connects it connects if it doesnt and they get caught so what.

Also that’s not the only two options. They connect it goes far. They don’t connect - They edge it into their grill/ neck... or they miss it completely and take it flush on the helmet or neck... well you know the rest.

 

[ElRaja]

yes, firstly pak need more up tempo test batsmen, second there is no saliva shining, so there will be less swing on offer, third, england will rotate their bowlers so pak are unlikely to face the best possible attack in any test, four, eng dont have any outstanding spinners, as a FC opening bat, playing spin is unlikely to be his strength and this should make things easier, five, if he is involved in pak limited over squads he will not play much first class cricket, might take him a few years to reach 20 first class games.

selecting haider is a big risk, he would need to be backed for at least 10 to 15 tests like babar was, but if it pays off we would have not one, but two nailed down batsmen for the next ten years, and that to me makes the cost of potential failure worth it.

 

[Deewana Mastana]

I don't see Haider making a test or T20 debut either unless someone does horrendously bad and he may just get a look in a T20 game.

I think it is a bit too early to draft him in either set ups as he needs to mature a bit as his game seems to be a bit rash for now. I was hoping during the PSL that he'd pick out the brains of Amla and learn how to build innings but he came and just tried to knock them out of the park without having a look first.

Maybe a year or so and he's going to be a permanent fixture for the Pakistan team but they may just surprise us all and him too.

 

[hitthestump]

Perhaps Musa will be able to impart his wisdom to his fellow youngster about not rushing into a debut in SENA conditions.

Haider might already be good but there's no need to rush with him, our current middle order isn't going to last much longer. At best he's marginally more productive than Fawad and Iftikhar, but at worst a nightmare debut might genuinely rob us of a talent like it possibly did with Umar Amin.

Imo, let him pick up experience from the squad during this series and gradually ease him in, eventually giving him his debut in a nice gentle home fixture against Sri Lanka or something.

 

[The Viper]

It would be way too risky to debut Haider in Tests.

He lacks experience and England is one of the toughest places to bat in.

He should debut in Pakistan, preferably after another solid season in FC.

 

[aloo paratha]

No. He should play the T20s. Let him play another FC season before playing him in tests.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Absolutely not. If he played for a SENA team I would absolutely debut him, but not for Pakistan. We have a habit of discarding young men who fail at their first attempt, especially in batting.

Plus there are genuine issues with his technique. He still doesn't play the short ball with confidence. He also has a habit of beating himself up every time he plays and misses. These issues are very solvable through coaching and a domestic season to implement said coaching.

However, in a test, against a swinging ball, and with pressure building, you need a player who's comfortable in his own skin. Haider Ali will be that player in the future, bot he isn't that player right now.

It's best to debut him in the T20s and develop him from there. I get that it's important for us to win this test series but it's more important to handle Haider's development with kid gloves, because if this kid develops properly, Pakistan have a high calibre mainstay for the next decade and a half. If he fails, he'll just be seen as another batting failure, and be stereotyped as a T20 player. That will dent his confidence and his test playing credentials.

Potw

 

[Usman]

I am tempted to be honest. I get the almost universal opinion here that it's too early but just think, what if he grabs his chance!

If Harris Sohail was on this tour then I'd be saying there's no question here, Harris must play as he's an outstanding bat. However our choice here is between Ifti who is just mediocre (and let's face it, he's old enough to be Misbah's uncle) or Fawad who has been sensational but whose star is beggining to fade one feels. So whilst it is a risk yes, I get the feeling it's a risk worth taking.

Ultimately my own view is that if the management don't want to take the risk with Haider, then they've got a problem with both other candidates for number 6 being unsuitable. So if there's no Haider, I would personally
play the two all-rounders in Shadab and Bhatti and just go for Rizwaan at 6.

 

[shamaan]

Anderson got hit with a nasty ball to the side of the neck I think from Cummins a few years ago.

And the South Africa / India series where the Saf bowlers peppered the Indian lower order with bouncers and I think Ashwin and Bumrah were hit.

Normally the teams don’t want or need to bowl bouncers at the tailenders. Plus obviously 95% or more of an innings is played by specialist batsman so they will face bouncers more frequently.

The original point still stands - tailenders are far more likely to be hit with bouncers and get injured as they have less skill. Either way it’s certainly not a reason to not select young batsmen!

Imaam and shezard got hit with bounce in the last year or so and we no how shezard ended up after that.

If they dont need to bowl bouncers at tailenders then they will less likely get injuried according to your statement.also if 95 percent of innings is played by specialist who's likely to get hit .

 

[MMHS]

No, it’ll be injustice to the kid.

Let me tell a story - about 38 months back one such young cricketer made PP excited (I don’t want to use erotic & exotic words here) with his heroics in a warmup game on a 45 metre ground .... most of those excited people now days curse him at least twice everyday .....

Haider, beta be careful - everything is possible in PAK cricket; by any chance, if they select you for the Test series; quickly retire ho jao for a short time. There is a very good chance that if he is selected for Test, based on that might not debut for LO cricket in next 3-4 years.

Long back, Salim Elahi was very similar player and he started with a bang - debut ODI hundred against Srilanka. So, PCB selectors got horny and picked him for Australia tour, to face Mac, Warne, Fleming & Kasprowich at Gabba .... then, after couple of outings, they dropped him from Test team ..... and didn’t select for ODI squad for five years!!!!!

 

[Markhor]

What? Shaheen was given a chance in different formats and kept with the team and over time everyone saw the exponential increase in his skills. There’s no guarantee and quite frankly very unlikely that he would have picked up the same skills toiling in rubbish pitches with rubbish coaches against rubbish batsmen in domestic cricket.

Naseem had the toughest debut possible but his strength of character showed through. He bowled his heart out and it will never be harder for him then he had on those tough pitches with a rampaging Warner after a personal loss, like you said. Every other challenge should be easy. And in the next few series he bowled brilliantly - albeit against weaker sides. Perhaps debuting him against those weaker sides would not have allowed to reach that level as quickly. We can’t say for certain if he would have done as well (hat trick/ 5 wicket halls etc) in those home tests without the Australia tests. However we can definitely say the Australian tests did not ruin / break him etc.

This is comparing apples to oranges though. The learning curve for bowlers is not as steep as for batsmen.

Batting requires the repeated execution of skills for a long period of time. The ability to construct a long innings, adjust to different conditions and knowing what balls to play and leave only comes with spending time in FC cricket.

The standard of FC cricket is much higher since PCB reduced the number of teams to six, so it won't hurt Haider to spend another season playing QEA Trophy under a good coach in Mohammed Wasim.

What will hurt Haider is rushing him into the Test setup, in England of all places where even more seasoned batsmen have struggled facing the red Dukes, and having his confidence shot. Let him play the T20s first and go from there.

 

[Shoaibbtt]

Too early.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Definitely not. I know Pakistan are incompetent at carefully managing youngsters but this would be another level of insanity to debut Haider Ali in a Test in England.

On the back of what ? A fifty in Derby playing amongst his mates, one FC season, a season of PSL, and his U19 reputation ?

Yes I'm desperate to see the end of Azhar and Shafiq, but that's not an excuse to rush Haider. Let him find his feet in white ball cricket first.

If naseem got a shot based on a couple of domestic games than haider shouldn't be excluded based on the same yard stick
If pakistan are struggling playing defensive cricket than Fakhar/haider will have to come in at number 6

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

If naseem got a shot based on a couple of domestic games than haider shouldn't be excluded based on the same yard stick
If pakistan are struggling playing defensive cricket than Fakhar/haider will have to come in at number 6

Comparing bowlers with batsmen? Forgot Babar Azam's struggle in the format?

A batsman can only improve his batting temperament by spending a lot of time at the crease. It's why Babar had it really tough in Tests at the start and it took him a few years of experience to improve his batting temperament. We don't want Haider to be dropped after a few games to be not seen again in five years. In Haider's case his PSL stint has shown that he does get careless at times.

I think [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] has mentioned several times how important batting temperament is in test cricket and the reason why many young limited overs successes struggle in Test cricket.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Comparing bowlers with batsmen? Forgot Babar Azam's struggle in the format?

A batsman can only improve his batting temperament by spending a lot of time at the crease. It's why Babar had it really tough in Tests at the start and it took him a few years of experience to improve his batting temperament. We don't want Haider to be dropped after a few games to be not seen again in five years. In Haider's case his PSL stint has shown that he does get careless at times.

I think [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] has mentioned several times how important batting temperament is in test cricket and the reason why many young limited overs successes struggle in Test cricket.

And playing more t20i cricket is obviously going to improve haiders temperament

 

[KingOfPakBreakfast]

And playing more t20i cricket is obviously going to improve haiders temperament

No, playing domestic first class cricket will improve his temperament. Expectations (him playing T20s) will be more modest, as they are lower profile than tests.

The reason why test matches are called 'tests' is because the format 'tests' your mentality, your concentration levels, your fitness and your technique as a batsmen. If we judge by that criteria, Haider is not ready. He needs to get confident at international cricket, and that only comes in a 'safer' more forgiving format like t20, where he'll be given multiple chances.

The Pakistani tactic of 'let's throw them at the deep end, and if they sink initially, let's dispose of them' can't work for young batsmen because there's so few of them coming through. Which is why they have to be extra careful with Haider, who relative to Pakistani batting, may be a generational talent

 

[Bullet Drive]

No chance lol.

He showed little technique in the PSL, and could only manage 1 score of 50+

You think he can do well vs Anderson and co?

It's a totally diff game.

Oh and he can't play the short ball.

 

[Prince of Pakistan]

And playing more t20i cricket is obviously going to improve haiders temperament

That's the whole point. The T20's will showcase his talent and show the selector if he is worth investing in. If he doesn't do well in T20's it won't be a big deal, but if he would disappoint in a Test match it will not only effect Pak's chances but also put pressure on the lad.

His FC performances will show if he is able to play long innings consistently instead of getting out after a few pretty fifties. If so then he has improved his mental strength and his batting temperament for the format.

 

[azimiqbal]

I do think it’s way to early for him to be picked in a test side , I would blood him in slowly , rush the process and you do more harm then good

 

[Abdullah]

yes, firstly pak need more up tempo test batsmen, second there is no saliva shining, so there will be less swing on offer, third, england will rotate their bowlers so pak are unlikely to face the best possible attack in any test, four, eng dont have any outstanding spinners, as a FC opening bat, playing spin is unlikely to be his strength and this should make things easier, five, if he is involved in pak limited over squads he will not play much first class cricket, might take him a few years to reach 20 first class games.

selecting haider is a big risk, he would need to be backed for at least 10 to 15 tests like babar was, but if it pays off we would have not one, but two nailed down batsmen for the next ten years, and that to me makes the cost of potential failure worth it.

Very good points

 

[shamaan]

No chance lol.

He showed little technique in the PSL, and could only manage 1 score of 50+

You think he can do well vs Anderson and co?

It's a totally diff game.

Oh and he can't play the short ball.

At a SR rate of over 135 I belive

 

[ask_analyse_act]

What if he scores a century or two fifties in the next warm up game.

Right now only Haider, Fakhar and Imam have scored runs to get that 6th spot. Both Fakhar and Imam where openers, this again makes Haiders case stronger to start in the 11.

Fawad alam and Ifthikar have not scored the runs despite being there for a month , while Haider just walked in and got a 50.

Totally agree that he doesn’t have enough experience of playing first Class cricket or the temperament required to play test cricket which will be developed with enough experience.... even then if he is in the team for white ball cricket, that makes him unavailable for first class cricket in domestics.

He is one for the future , no doubt... If MA is there I don’t mind him debuting as he surely will back this kid, but MISBAH and co wouldn’t do that as they don’t have the eye for talent.

As MMHS highlighted the example of salim elahi, also Umar Amin has the same case where he debuted in England played 4 test matches at the age of 20 couldn’t play a longer inns, discarded forever, till now hasn’t got his chance despite some good domestic season. Another example is Sami Aslam debuted in England which made Hafeez go away from test cricket,ppl thought Pak has found their new opener for tests, where is he now. Pak are known to destroy young careers , Babar azam was lucky that he played under a professional coach like MA

 

[MMHS]

I’ll be happy if the kid eventually makes it to Test cricket but, trust me those scores in a practice game hardly is indicative. It’s actually confirmed me that he’ll struggle in Test if he is debuted - let me explain why.

In that practice game, both sides used bowlers selectively and bowlers also bowled to get into rhythm more than winning the game - there was no collective plan for particular batsmen. Otherwise that Green (or white?) team won’t have chased 350 losing 2 wickets and Shaheen bowling 10 overs. This worked perfectly for the strength of Haider - young, free flowing batsman who played his natural game in a picnic mood game. His weakness is his defence and his temperament- exactly what will be tested by English pacers in Test game.

Playing attritional game is the art of Test cricket and this is where Haider is extremely vulnerable - Poms will block his scoring areas, won’t allow him to come on front foot for a single ball and they’ll force him to drive on back-foot, on the rise. Now, if that kid had Azhar like temperament, he could have waited for 2-3 hours for his first attacking shot, wearing down the English pacers until they start to pitch it up - in that 200* at MCG, IICRC, Azhar’s first boundary outside off was after or around Tea!!!!!! No one can expect that from Haider - if he is debuted, he’ll play few stunning shots but eventually he’ll be out for sub 20 innings at may he 75 SR - caught by fielder behind batsman or castled via inner edge.

 

[Amjid Javed]

It would be a huge risk, but the question that has to be asked is, will he do any worse than the likes of Fawad Alam or Iftikhar Ahmed who could scratch around for 10 or 15 runs, whilst this lad could come in and score runs quickly.

A counter attacking option at 6 or 7 is always a good option in a test side. Also most new batsmen in a test side (middle order) should start at 6 and work there way down into a 3,4 or 5 spot later in years. Hes worth a try.

 

[Officer Barbrady]

From what I saw of him in the T20s he’s undeniably talented but seemed he needed to tighten up against pace. Wouldn’t want him to debut in test cricket in England. Let him play a few more FC games and debut at home

 

[shamaan]

What if he scores a century or two fifties in the next warm up game.

Right now only Haider, Fakhar and Imam have scored runs to get that 6th spot. Both Fakhar and Imam where openers, this again makes Haiders case stronger to start in the 11.

Fawad alam and Ifthikar have not scored the runs despite being there for a month , while Haider just walked in and got a 50.

Totally agree that he doesn’t have enough experience of playing first Class cricket or the temperament required to play test cricket which will be developed with enough experience.... even then if he is in the team for white ball cricket, that makes him unavailable for first class cricket in domestics.

He is one for the future , no doubt... If MA is there I don’t mind him debuting as he surely will back this kid, but MISBAH and co wouldn’t do that as they don’t have the eye for talent.

As MMHS highlighted the example of salim elahi, also Umar Amin has the same case where he debuted in England played 4 test matches at the age of 20 couldn’t play a longer inns, discarded forever, till now hasn’t got his chance despite some good domestic season. Another example is Sami Aslam debuted in England which made Hafeez go away from test cricket,ppl thought Pak has found their new opener for tests, where is he now. Pak are known to destroy young careers , Babar azam was lucky that he played under a professional coach like MA

If they dropped everyone down a position then I'd play imaam at number 3 but if they looking at number 6 even thou I want haider to play it's to early so either fawad or ifti

 

[ask_analyse_act]

If they dropped everyone down a position then I'd play imaam at number 3 but if they looking at number 6 even thou I want haider to play it's to early so either fawad or ifti

Since Fawad is selected doesn’t mean he has to play. He is yet to score 40 odd runs. May be can avg 60 in domestics , can’t score runs even against a mix of good and avg bowlers. Archer would castle him before he could cover the stumps to face the ball.

 

[shamaan]

Since Fawad is selected doesn’t mean he has to play. He is yet to score 40 odd runs. May be can avg 60 in domestics , can’t score runs even against a mix of good and avg bowlers. Archer would castle him before he could cover the stumps to face the ball.

Did I say he has to play ?

 

[ElRaja]

to the people who say he needs time before debuting, what for? babar, azhar, imam, sami, shaan, etc, all these batsmen had considerable experience when they played tests, yet all required at least ten, or fifteen tests to settle in the team.

same is true for haider, regardless of when he is brought into the team he will need 10 or 15 tests to work out if he has the mental strength to cut it at this level.

first class experience doesn't count for too much imo, the jump from first class to test is just too big, some guys can make it, others cant.

im not saying he has to play, but the argument that he needs first class experience is weak, hes gonna learn to play tests in tests, no where else.

the only argument which i think would hold weight is let him debut at home, so maybe we wait 6 months.

 

[shamaan]

to the people who say he needs time before debuting, what for? babar, azhar, imam, sami, shaan, etc, all these batsmen had considerable experience when they played tests, yet all required at least ten, or fifteen tests to settle in the team.

same is true for haider, regardless of when he is brought into the team he will need 10 or 15 tests to work out if he has the mental strength to cut it at this level.

first class experience doesn't count for too much imo, the jump from first class to test is just too big, some guys can make it, others cant.

im not saying he has to play, but the argument that he needs first class experience is weak, hes gonna learn to play tests in tests, no where else.

the only argument which i think would hold weight is let him debut at home, so maybe we wait 6 months.

Yes debute against weaker team or at home

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Did I say he has to play ?

then who you want to play as 6th batsman?

 

[shamaan]

then who you want to play as 6th batsman?

Depends on the team combination if they looking for a 5 man attack or 4 man attack..

 

[TeymurBlake]

Personally, its a bit too soon for him. But on the one hand I wouldn't be against him coming in at No.6 to be honest.

Would take him over Sarfi, Ifti Chacha and even Fawad Alam.

 

[amvbfm]

He is easily more talented than the other options but the few innings he has played have shown that while he doesn't lack confidence he does lack temperament. A less risk averse coach might have gambled with him but don't think Misbah will play him (maybe if he scores a double century in the practice game). Also, if he does play he will slot in at 6 which i don't think is the ideal position for him. He is a top three bat and doesn't seem to be as comfortable against spin as he is against pace. I know it sounds like a radical suggestion but I think he could be played as an opener if (more likely a question of when) Shan and Abid fail. Given Shan's ability and Abid's technique, I think his chances of succeeding in the conditions are equally good if not better. Plus unlike those two and Imam he is likely to score at a better rate.

 

[shamaan]

He is easily more talented than the other options but the few innings he has played have shown that while he doesn't lack confidence he does lack temperament. A less risk averse coach might have gambled with him but don't think Misbah will play him (maybe if he scores a double century in the practice game). Also, if he does play he will slot in at 6 which i don't think is the ideal position for him. He is a top three bat and doesn't seem to be as comfortable against spin as he is against pace. I know it sounds like a radical suggestion but I think he could be played as an opener if (more likely a question of when) Shan and Abid fail. Given Shan's ability and Abid's technique, I think his chances of succeeding in the conditions are equally good if not better. Plus unlike those two and Imam he is likely to score at a better rate.

Number 6 is proberly ideal for him due to having the power game then can be moved up after couple series.hes better against spin than fast bowling eg psl.

 

[ElRaja]

I know it sounds like a radical suggestion but I think he could be played as an opener if (more likely a question of when) Shan and Abid fail.

radical? u do know that is his natural batting position yeh?

 

[amvbfm]

radical? u do know that is his natural batting position yeh?

Please read my post again. It says "he is a top three bat". Also I wrote "sounds like" as it isnt radical for me but it is for the present think tank and many posters here. I would much rather he plays in the top three than at 6.

 

[shamaan]

Please read my post again. It says "he is a top three bat". Also I wrote "sounds like" as it isnt radical for me but it is for the present think tank and many posters here. I would much rather he plays in the top three than at 6.

Defo shouldn't bat in top 3 bat him down the order then bring him up the order hes top order batesman in t20s and odis but tests in sena conditions bat him down the order

 

[shamaan]

Do people stil want to play him at number 3 lol

 

[sweep_shot]

I think he should get his debut at home.

England is a pretty tough place for debut (specially for an overseas batsman).

 

[Saj]

Yesterday, Haider Ali was dropped first ball at second slip although he soon fell to a loose drive at Shan Masood.

 

[Zaz]

Hes too raw to be fronting up and facing archer and anderson in engand in his first test

He needs to be around the team gain some side match experience and debut in pakistan rather than be thrown into the lions den and be told to sink or swim