Should India become a Hindu Rashtra?

[PakLFC]

Right..

So hypothetically speaking, if I found 1000s of Hindutva followers that follows the belief that non hindus shouldn't have to convert to Hindiusm, that would mean opposite to what you are saying about conversion to Hinduism being mandatory? As it is an ideology.

How many Hindutva followers in India? For starters the government itself are full of them. You can show me Hindutva followers who respect Islam and Muslim's for starters. These hate slogans against Muslim's are encouraged by someone. These haters were not there when congress was governing India.

 

[Romali_rotti]

How many Hindutva followers in India? For starters the government itself are full of them. You can show me Hindutva followers who respect Islam and Muslim's for starters. These hate slogans against Muslim's are encouraged by someone. These haters were not there when congress was governing India.

There is nothing on the hindutva ideology that says non hindus must be converted to Hinduism.

Different people that follows the hindutva ideology may have different opinions however we cannot establish that hindutva ideology requires non hindus to be converted to Hinduism.

 

[PakLFC]

There is nothing on the hindutva ideology that says non hindus must be converted to Hinduism.

Different people that follows the hindutva ideology may have different opinions however we cannot establish that hindutva ideology requires non hindus to be converted to Hinduism.

Then why am I seeing so much hate speech against Muslim's by them? What is with this everyone in India is Hindu even if they are not??. I am only saying what i have seen in Hindutva conclaves where these people openly demand the murder of Muslim's. Or on the streets they are shouting hate speeches non stop. By the way they are not just a few miscreants rather the number is in thousands of not even more. They grown up or old people most of the time, not kids.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Then why am I seeing so much hate speech against Muslim's by them? What is with this everyone in India is Hindu even if they are not??. I am only saying what i have seen in Hindutva conclaves where these people openly demand the murder of Muslim's. Or on the streets they are shouting hate speeches non stop. By the way they are not just a few miscreants rather the number is in thousands of not even more. They grown up or old people most of the time, not kids.

Ppl can say whatever they want. You cannot establish that the Hindutva ideology requires non Hindus to be converted to Hindus.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

First you asked who is conforming and now you ask criteria for disrespect. Do you think going to an Islamic country and spewing vile comments on Prophet Modemmed is disrespectful?

Bharath culture is also about respecting diametric views. You can criticise, scrutinise and debate these views respectfully.

You were the one who quoted an authority on hindutva as follows:

For Savarkar, in Hindutva: Who Is a Hindu?, Hindutva is an inclusive term of everything Indic. The three essentials of Hindutva in Savarkar's definition were the common nation (rashtra), common race (jati), and common culture or civilisation (sanskriti).Savarkar used the words "Hindu" and "Sindhu" interchangeably. Those terms were at the foundation of his Hindutva, as geographic, cultural and ethnic concepts, and "religion did not figure in his ensemble"

Then I pointed out that through the passage of time people whatever background in India adopted various modern cultures from outside of India including culture, language belief systems etc. So how would you ensure they conform to the standards you quoted?

I don't know why you are bringing Islam countries into this, what has hindutva got to do with them?

 

[IndoorCricket]

You were the one who quoted an authority on hindutva as follows:

For Savarkar, in Hindutva: Who Is a Hindu?, Hindutva is an inclusive term of everything Indic. The three essentials of Hindutva in Savarkar's definition were the common nation (rashtra), common race (jati), and common culture or civilisation (sanskriti).Savarkar used the words "Hindu" and "Sindhu" interchangeably. Those terms were at the foundation of his Hindutva, as geographic, cultural and ethnic concepts, and "religion did not figure in his ensemble"

Then I pointed out that through the passage of time people whatever background in India adopted various modern cultures from outside of India including culture, language belief systems etc. So how would you ensure they conform to the standards you quoted?

I don't know why you are bringing Islam countries into this, what has hindutva got to do with them?

I didn't prescribe any laws/ standards which needs to conformed neither did Hindutva states any laws. Same goes with Hinduism at large. Hindutava or Hinduism is not about laws to be conformed. You might be confused with Abrahamic religions which has laws to be conformed. Its more about cultural assimilation.

You can accept any culture, belief systems etc without disrespecting other beliefs, without causing disruption to others way of living/ belief. One example can be about cows. Cows are considered holy in this nation as it is a pastural nation, this needs to be respected. I asked about Islam because you might better relate to it than an indigenous culture.

Moreover the context of original statement was if there is in by definition in Hindutva asks Muslims to be converted back to Hinduism. The answer is NO.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I didn't prescribe any laws/ standards which needs to conformed neither did Hindutva states any laws. Same goes with Hinduism at large. Hindutava or Hinduism is not about laws to be conformed. You might be confused with Abrahamic religions which has laws to be conformed. Its more about cultural assimilation.

You can accept any culture, belief systems etc without disrespecting other beliefs, without causing disruption to others way of living/ belief. One example can be about cows. Cows are considered holy in this nation as it is a pastural nation, this needs to be respected. I asked about Islam because you might better relate to it than an indigenous culture.

Moreover the context of original statement was if there is in by definition in Hindutva asks Muslims to be converted back to Hinduism. The answer is NO.

Ignoring your deflections about Islamic nations since they have no relevance here, I would bring to your attention the parts of the quote which you posted here:

The three essentials of Hindutva in Savarkar's definition were the common nation (rashtra), common race (jati), and common culture or civilisation (sanskriti)

These according to your own quote are essentials. If people can ignore or discard as and when they need, then what is essential about them?

 

[IndoorCricket]

Ignoring your deflections about Islamic nations since they have no relevance here, I would bring to your attention the parts of the quote which you posted here:

The three essentials of Hindutva in Savarkar's definition were the common nation (rashtra), common race (jati), and common culture or civilisation (sanskriti)

These according to your own quote are essentials. If people can ignore or discard as and when they need, then what is essential about them?

How can you discard your nation and race? These are facts of your life. I can see you can discard your nation by moving out to different nation and becoming a citizen of it until then your nation is fixed.

You cant change your race cause that is your genetics.

I can also understand you can discard your civilisation. But you need to respect native culture because its the shared identity of the majority of people living there.

Islamic nations have relevance here cause we are taking about culture with religious connotations and I am drawing parallels with contemporary cultures. Its ok if you are not comfortable answering it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

How can you discard your nation and race? These are facts of your life. I can see you can discard your nation by moving out to different nation and becoming a citizen of it until then your nation is fixed.

You cant change your race cause that is your genetics.

I can also understand you can discard your civilisation. But you need to respect native culture because its the shared identity of the majority of people living there.

Islamic nations have relevance here cause we are taking about culture with religious connotations and I am drawing parallels with contemporary cultures. Its ok if you are not comfortable answering it.

Again ignoring your deflections to Islamic countries because they have no relevance here. If you want to discuss Islam in India then fair enough, please give your view.

In the quote you posted from Savarkar, he doesn't mention anything about respecting native culture, he talks about this as an essential. Those are two terms with very different ramifications. Maybe why you are now hopping from essential to respect because you don't feel you can back such assertive language from Savarkar? Why not, after all, you quoted him?

 

[IndoorCricket]

Again ignoring your deflections to Islamic countries because they have no relevance here. If you want to discuss Islam in India then fair enough, please give your view.

In the quote you posted from Savarkar, he doesn't mention anything about respecting native culture, he talks about this as an essential. Those are two terms with very different ramifications. Maybe why you are now hopping from essential to respect because you don't feel you can back such assertive language from Savarkar? Why not, after all, you quoted him?

Those are essential parts of Hindutatva. Hindutatva is essence of an Hindu. What is an Hindu? Hindu is some one who recognises God is all permitting. God is the very essence of all. Realises there are many ways to reach God and respects them. Respecting different viewpoints is Hindu's culture. There is also geographical aspect related to Hindu identity (nation and race).

If you consider yourself as part Hindutatva movement you should know the essence of being an Hindu ( nation, race and culture). And in the quote I mentioned, Sarvarker was stating essentials of Hindutatva. I don't see any contradiction in this, If you consider part of Hindutatva, these essentials make up the your identity.

In your original reply,

Are people of India supposed to conform to those geographical and cultural concepts? How do you decide who is conforming and who isn't?

You started with an loaded question. You already made the assumption that people of India need to follow this. Nowhere in my original quote have I mentioned people of India need to follow this. People who are part of Hindutatva needs those essentials.

You are right Sarvarkar didn't mention about respecting other indigenous religions. It was you who bought up the question of conforming. I then said people should not conform but rather respect. Sarvarkar was mentioning about essence of Hindutatva. Whether people consider themselves as part of Hindutatva after change of culture and traditions? Definitely not. Well atleast not according to Sarvarkar definition.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Those are essential parts of Hindutatva. Hindutatva is essence of an Hindu. What is an Hindu? Hindu is some one who recognises God is all permitting. God is the very essence of all. Realises there are many ways to reach God and respects them. Respecting different viewpoints is Hindu's culture. There is also geographical aspect related to Hindu identity (nation and race).

If you consider yourself as part Hindutatva movement you should know the essence of being an Hindu ( nation, race and culture). And in the quote I mentioned, Sarvarker was stating essentials of Hindutatva. I don't see any contradiction in this, If you consider part of Hindutatva, these essentials make up the your identity.

In your original reply,


You started with an loaded question. You already made the assumption that people of India need to follow this. Nowhere in my original quote have I mentioned people of India need to follow this. People who are part of Hindutatva needs those essentials.

You are right Sarvarkar didn't mention about respecting other indigenous religions. It was you who bought up the question of conforming. I then said people should not conform but rather respect. Sarvarkar was mentioning about essence of Hindutatva. Whether people consider themselves as part of Hindutatva after change of culture and traditions? Definitely not. Well atleast not according to Sarvarkar definition.

Inspired by your reference and reverence for this Svarakar fellow I have done a bit of reading today on his life works. It appears he is seen as the father of hindutva. His views certainly seem to be echoed by many Indian posters here, it seems he was indeed inspired by Muslim fortitude and tried to create a hindu version to unite Hindus. Unfortunately he seemed to want hindus to follow what he perceived as the Muslim doctrine to slay enemies and rape the conquered women. He has some pretty harrowing ideas of what hinduism should be. Ironically he rails most against hindu religion itself and declares himself an atheist. I wonder where we have heard that before?

How Savarkar invented Hindu supremacy and its cult of violence | Aeon Essays

Vinayak Savarkar ridiculed Gandhi, preaching that anti-Muslim violence was the only means to unite India into a nation

aeon.co

 

[CricketCartoons]

Inspired by your reference and reverence for this Svarakar fellow I have done a bit of reading today on his life works. It appears he is seen as the father of hindutva. His views certainly seem to be echoed by many Indian posters here, it seems he was indeed inspired by Muslim fortitude and tried to create a hindu version to unite Hindus. Unfortunately he seemed to want hindus to follow what he perceived as the Muslim doctrine to slay enemies and rape the conquered women. He has some pretty harrowing ideas of what hinduism should be. Ironically he rails most against hindu religion itself and declares himself an atheist. I wonder where we have heard that before?

How Savarkar invented Hindu supremacy and its cult of violence | Aeon Essays

Vinayak Savarkar ridiculed Gandhi, preaching that anti-Muslim violence was the only means to unite India into a nation

aeon.co

Are you really ignorant about it? There is an actual verse for that. If you cannot find it, I can provide.

While our fight is greater than one individual. Any criticism of an individual cannot invalidate or take away from the just cause that the individual espouses.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Are you really ignorant about it? There is an actual verse for that. If you cannot find it, I can provide.

While our fight is greater than one individual. Any criticism of an individual cannot invalidate or take away from the just cause that the individual espouses.

I am not criticising any individual, this one in particular fascinates me greatly, now some of the pieces of hindutva are starting to fall into place and I can see where some of the pent up anger has formed into such a movement. I don't know if there has ever been a thread on Savarkar but it seems he has a book outlining his vision which may be worthy of discussion in it's own right:

 

[PakLFC]

Ppl can say whatever they want. You cannot establish that the Hindutva ideology requires non Hindus to be converted to Hindus.

Look at the many video's of Muslim hating in India. People can not openly express hate of another community so no they can not say wherever they want. Every country is supposed to have rule of law. In India Muslim abuse is allowed because the RSS backed police mostly turn the other way. I still don't understand what ideology you are looking for?.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Look at the many video's of Muslim hating in India. People can not openly express hate of another community so no they can not say wherever they want. Every country is supposed to have rule of law. In India Muslim abuse is allowed because the RSS backed police mostly turn the other way. I still don't understand what ideology you are looking for?.

You must be getting a personalized and filtered feed of those videos. Lots of reports of crime on hindus by muslims. Have you seen any such news of a hindu committing violent crime on muslim in Pakistan or Bangladesh? No. In india muslims are so empowered that they commit crimes against hindus while there is the more expected hindu crime on muslim.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Look at the many video's of Muslim hating in India. People can not openly express hate of another community so no they can not say wherever they want. Every country is supposed to have rule of law. In India Muslim abuse is allowed because the RSS backed police mostly turn the other way. I still don't understand what ideology you are looking for?.

So you can't find any credible written sources which states per the RSS ideology that non hindus should be converted to hindus.

 

[PakLFC]

You must be getting a personalized and filtered feed of those videos. Lots of reports of crime on hindus by muslims. Have you seen any such news of a hindu committing violent crime on muslim in Pakistan or Bangladesh? No. In india muslims are so empowered that they commit crimes against hindus while there is the more expected hindu crime on muslim.

In Pak and Bang the Hindu's are too few in number's to harm Muslims. My info comes from youtube and other video sharing websites. Where are Indian Muslim's demanding for Hindu ladies to be abused or their general population to be exterminated? Even if in a few video's they are it is a reaction to what is being done to them. Congress and Rahul agree with me, not you. Why do Hindu' go to so many Muslim countries to live and work if it is that bad living in Muslim countries?.

 

[PakLFC]

So you can't find any credible written sources which states per the RSS ideology that non hindus should be converted to hindus.

Are you for real? You just agreed that ideologies are not written on paper. It is not a constitution that it should be.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Are you for real? You just agreed that ideologies are not written on paper. It is not a constitution that it should be.

I agreed ?? Can you show me where ?

I recall saying ppl can say whatever they want but or doesn't prove what you were saying

 

[PakLFC]

I agreed ?? Can you show me where ?

I recall saying ppl can say whatever they want but or doesn't prove what you were saying

You said that you agree ideology is not written on paper.

 

[Romali_rotti]

You said that you agree ideology is not written on paper.

Show me where I said that

 

[PakLFC]

Show me where I said that

See your post 560.

 

[Romali_rotti]

See your post 560.

That was a question to you, not an agreeance

 

[PakLFC]

That was a question to you, not an agreeance

Your "right" was not a question but a comment. You agreed. Once more ideologies are not written on paper.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Your "right" was not a question but a comment. You agreed. Once more ideologies are not written in paper

So what about the '?' On the post.


Once again so you have no credible sources regarding RSS and conversion to Hindiusm.

 

[PakLFC]

So what about the '?' On the post.


Once again so you have no credible sources regarding RSS and conversion to Hindiusm.

There are plenty of video's on youtube. Rather, you have no answer to Hindu hate speeches. I see no ? after your "right".

 

[Romali_rotti]

There are plenty of video's on youtube. Rather, you have no answer to Hindu hate speeches. I see no ? after your "right".

Show me a credible RSS source that is written which highlights their policy on non Hindus needing to be converted to Hinduism.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Well if they wnnt to become one then why not they scrap their constitution first.

 

[PakLFC]

Show me a credible RSS source that is written which highlights their policy on non Hindus needing to be converted to Hinduism.

The problem is no matter how many "ghar wapsi" or hate speeches i show you it won't be enough to please you. You keep harping on about the same thing.

 

[Romali_rotti]

The problem is no matter how many "ghar wapsi" or hate speeches i show you it won't be enough to please you. You keep harping on about the same thing.

So you have no written sources from the RSS which states conversion of non Hindus to Hinduism is a must.

 

[PakLFC]

So you have no written sources from the RSS which states conversion of non Hindus to Hinduism is a must.

These things never come in written form. No ideology ever does. I can do much better then that but showing you many pics but I warn you they speeches and very hateful.

 

[FearlessRoar]

India’s top court puts order banning madrasas on hold

The directive comes days before the country begins voting in a national election where Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) are seeking a third term.

The top court was responding to a challenge to the March 22 order of the Allahabad High Court which scrapped a 2004 law governing the schools, called madrasas, in Uttar Pradesh state, where one-fifth of the 240 million population is Muslim.

Saying the law violated constitutional secularism, the High Court had also directed that pupils at these institutions be moved to conventional schools.

“We are of the view that the issues raised in the petitions merit closer reflection,” the Supreme Court said on Friday, news portal Live Law reported.

The matter will now be heard in July, and “everything will remain stayed” until then, lawyers said.

India’s federal election process will conclude in June.

Iftikhar Ahmed Javed, head of the board of madrasa education in Uttar Pradesh state, welcomed the court’s order, terming it a “big win”.

“We were really worried regarding the future of about 16 lakh (1.6 million) students and now this order has come as a big relief for all of us,” he said.

In the ten years of Modi’s tenure, members of his BJP and its affiliates have repeatedly been accused of anti-Islamic hate speech and vigilantism.

Modi, however, has denied that discrimination against minorities exists under his government, which he says is working for the betterment of all.

India's top court puts order banning madrasas on hold

India's top court put on hold a lower court's order that effectively banned madrasas (Islamic schools) in the country's most populous state, lawyers

arynews.tv

 

[FearlessRoar]

I think final decision on this matter will be made only after the elections.

 

[Red-Indian]

India’s top court puts order banning madrasas on hold

The directive comes days before the country begins voting in a national election where Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) are seeking a third term.

The top court was responding to a challenge to the March 22 order of the Allahabad High Court which scrapped a 2004 law governing the schools, called madrasas, in Uttar Pradesh state, where one-fifth of the 240 million population is Muslim.

Saying the law violated constitutional secularism, the High Court had also directed that pupils at these institutions be moved to conventional schools.

“We are of the view that the issues raised in the petitions merit closer reflection,” the Supreme Court said on Friday, news portal Live Law reported.

The matter will now be heard in July, and “everything will remain stayed” until then, lawyers said.

India’s federal election process will conclude in June.

Iftikhar Ahmed Javed, head of the board of madrasa education in Uttar Pradesh state, welcomed the court’s order, terming it a “big win”.

“We were really worried regarding the future of about 16 lakh (1.6 million) students and now this order has come as a big relief for all of us,” he said.

In the ten years of Modi’s tenure, members of his BJP and its affiliates have repeatedly been accused of anti-Islamic hate speech and vigilantism.

Modi, however, has denied that discrimination against minorities exists under his government, which he says is working for the betterment of all.

India's top court puts order banning madrasas on hold

India's top court put on hold a lower court's order that effectively banned madrasas (Islamic schools) in the country's most populous state, lawyers

arynews.tv

The more I think about this, I begin to believe this is an idea whose time has come. Ban all religious education at schools - whether convents making the lord's prayer compulsory or madrassahs which emphasise religious education. All schools should be secular.

I'm generally reluctant to force these ideas but the very low level of opposition in the Muslim community makes me believe they're also on board and would rather their kids receive a modern education rather than training in rote reading the Quran.

I dislike the origin and intention behind this ban but hope the Supreme Court upholds this ban and it spreads countrywide.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Yet another Mosque attacked in India.

In Kolhapur, Maharashtra, a crowd escalated a protest against illegal encroachment into a violent act on Sunday. They scaled a mosque, hoisted a saffron flag, and initiated its destruction.

View attachment ssstwitter.com_1721105220308.mp4

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It looked like a nice building, what a shame. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to inform us that it was housing terrorists and police found evidence that the mosque was built on the site of a former hindu temple.

 

[FearlessRoar]

​

Indian activist Umar Khalid withdraws bail plea from Supreme Court after 14 adjournments

Jailed activist Umar Khalid on Wednesday withdrew his bail application from India's apex court after the hearing was adjourned 14 times in less than a year.

Mr Khalid has been languishing in New Delhi's high-security Tihar jail since September 2020 after he was arrested under the draconian Unlawful Activities Prevention Act (UAPA) over allegations of instigating riots in the capital. The stringent counter-terrorism law allows prolonged detention of suspects without trial or charge.

Mr Khalid has been accused of allegedly being a mastermind behind the February 2020 riots in Delhi, where at least 53 people, mostly Muslims, were killed.

The riots erupted during nationwide protests against the Citizenship (Amendment) Act passed by the Indian government and the proposed pan-India National Register of Citizens. Under the CAA citizenship rights would be granted to persecuted refugees from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan – with the exception of those who are Muslims.

Mr Khalid had approached the Supreme Court after the Delhi high court rejected his bail plea in October 2022.

Advocate Kapil Sibal appearing for Mr Khalid told the bench that his client wished to withdraw the petition citing "a change in circumstances", Live Law reported.

Mr Khalid's legal team would now "try our luck in the trial court".

A bench of justices Bela M Trivedi and Pankaj Mithal allowed the request and dismissed it as withdrawn.

The matter before the Supreme Court has been adjourned 14 times since the first hearing on 18 May 2023. The apex court postponed the hearing at least six times, while Mr Khalid's counsel sought adjournments four times.

"Our Supreme Court journey ends for now," wrote Banojyotsna Lahiri, Mr Khalid's partner, on X.

Mr Khalid, a scholar from India's premier Jawaharlal Nehru University, was catapulted into the spotlight after being charged with sedition along with four others for organising a protest at the varsity in 2016. He was released months later after surrendering to the local police.

Rights groups have accused prime minister Narendra Modi's government of weaponising the UAPA law to jail dissenters, including Mr Khalid.

"The repeated denial of bail to Umar Khalid is a huge blow to everyone exercising their rights to freedom of expression and peaceful assembly in the country," Aakar Patel, Amnesty International India’s Chair of Board, said in 2022.

"Khalid’s continued detention under UAPA runs absolutely counter to the international human rights law and standards," he added.

The Independent

Umar Khalid withdraws bail plea from Supreme Court after 14 adjournments

Umar Khalid’s counsel will now ‘try’ their ‘luck in trial court’

www.independent.co.uk

Delhi HC Judge Recuses From Hearing Umar Khalid's Bail Plea​

Delhi High Court judge Justice Amit Sharma on Monday recused from hearing the bail petition moved by Umar Khalid in connection with the Delhi riots larger conspiracy case.

The matter was listed for hearing before a division bench comprising of Justice Prathiba M Singh and Justice Amit Sharma. After the Justice Sharma recused himself from hearing the matter, the case will now be re-listed on different date in front of a different bench.

Earlier, Justice Sharma recused from hearing bail petitions of co-accused in the same case, as he appeared for various UAPA cases for NIA as Special Public Prosecutor when he served as a lawyer.

Khalid moved a fresh bail plea after he withdrew his plea seeking bail from the Supreme Court.

Khalid was arrested in September 2020 in UAPA case connected to Delhi Riots of February 2020.

Delhi HC Judge Recuses From Hearing Umar Khalid's Bail Plea

Delhi High Court judge Justice Amit Sharma on Monday recused from hearing the bail petition moved by Umar Khalid in connection with the Delhi riots larger conspiracy case.

news.abplive.com

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

These things never come in written form. No ideology ever does. I can do much better then that but showing you many pics but I warn you they speeches and very hateful.

Really?? What kind of statement is this "ideologies are not written on paper". The most dominant ideologies in history have written documentation, from economical Das Kapital and Communist Manifesto to Adam Smith's Invisible hand, to political, Muslim League's Pakistan resolution has a written document and so did the Nazis.
Eugenics had written documentation and so does the Human Rights charter.

 

[PakLFC]

Really?? What kind of statement is this "ideologies are not written on paper". The most dominant ideologies in history have written documentation, from economical Das Kapital and Communist Manifesto to Adam Smith's Invisible hand, to political, Muslim League's Pakistan resolution has a written document and so did the Nazis.
Eugenics had written documentation and so does the Human Rights charter.

OMG!!Then so much is written and promised by the UN why does never come to pass!? Why has the ideology of Pakistan never been realized? They are hardly worth the ink they are written on rather in today's world it is all about military might.