Should Pak lives matter?

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So I have been watching the return of football like many on here, and am fascinated by all players still kneeling before the games in solidarity with the BLM movement, black players often raising their arms with a clenched fist to signify the black power movement in the US during the 60's.

Black lives certainly seem to matter a lot more in western countries currently, but I am wondering if maybe Pak lives should matter in the same way? Do you believe they should, and if so, why? Or if not, why not?

 

[Zeshan547]

What's the point of this thread? Plz OP elaborate the context.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What's the point of this thread? Plz OP elaborate the context.

It is explained in the OP. If there is something you don't understand then by all means quote which part and I will elaborate.

 

[uberkoen]

The thread makes no sense. Are Pakistani's being oppressed or killed somewhere? Do you know what the Black Lives Matter movement is all about?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Is this related to Pak lives in UK Cap ? Where Neutral Brit's/Pakistanis are concerned about Pakistanis being targeted by the police, like they do Negros in Western countries ?? I am little confused with this thread..

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The thread makes no sense. Are Pakistani's being oppressed or killed somewhere? Do you know what the Black Lives Matter movement is all about?

Only one case I can recall when some Pakistani drug dealer was gunned down in his car, there was a thread here about it. But then the trigger happy police in the US aren't really a reflection of what goes on here, I don't think the British police are anything like their counterparts in America, yet the movement has seen statues pulled down and demonstrations across the UK.

Also bear in mind that the BLM movement has expanded far beyond police brutality and we are now seeing questions asked about blacks not getting representation in boardrooms, courts and other positions of power. So I am asking whether we should be asking similar questions about Pak lives, and should they matter?

 

[miandadrules]

I agree!

Minority lives in Pakistan matter.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I agree!

Minority lives in Pakistan matter.

I was thinking the same, certainly in Pakistan you could argue Pak lives seem to matter less, but you could make that argument about Africa as well with regard to blacks.

 

[msaaim89]

Only one case I can recall when some Pakistani drug dealer was gunned down in his car, there was a thread here about it. But then the trigger happy police in the US aren't really a reflection of what goes on here, I don't think the British police are anything like their counterparts in America, yet the movement has seen statues pulled down and demonstrations across the UK.

Also bear in mind that the BLM movement has expanded far beyond police brutality and we are now seeing questions asked about blacks not getting representation in boardrooms, courts and other positions of power. So I am asking whether we should be asking similar questions about Pak lives, and should they matter?

Is the lack of presentation down to institutiobal racism or from lack of required skills necessary for the respective role? Keep in mind minorities of other backgrounds have had better success. Maybe it's down to the upbringing?

 

[Thulsa]

Only one case I can recall when some Pakistani drug dealer was gunned down in his car, there was a thread here about it. But then the trigger happy police in the US aren't really a reflection of what goes on here, I don't think the British police are anything like their counterparts in America, yet the movement has seen statues pulled down and demonstrations across the UK.

Also bear in mind that the BLM movement has expanded far beyond police brutality and we are now seeing questions asked about blacks not getting representation in boardrooms, courts and other positions of power. So I am asking whether we should be asking similar questions about Pak lives, and should they matter?

So a drug dealer was gunned down (I assume you mean this one https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/7...police-m62-gangster-spoilt-brat-huddersfield?). Good riddance if true, but hardly unprovoked and a poor comparison to George Floyd.

In my firm the discussion is instead about minority representation on boards/at the c-suite level. Not black specific. Thankfully common sense prevails -personally at my level, I look at the calibre of the individual and not the colour of their skin, gender, age etc. It just so happens nobody capable (at a managing partner level) in the last 2 years has been black that has applied, or Pakistani etc. And that’s nothing to do with discrimination or any perceived bias. The question is why can black people not develop themselves to that level - that’s a separate topic.

Positive discrimination is also terrible - having lived in South Africa for a few years, companies flounder on account of the silly process in place. And I abhor the retrospective attempt to cleanse the past - it should be learned from to make sure that never happens again. Glorifying icons of that time I understand and in all honesty this should have been done some time ago, but imo it has gone too far and does beg the question where does this stop.

 

[uberkoen]

Is the lack of presentation down to institutiobal racism or from lack of required skills necessary for the respective role? Keep in mind minorities of other backgrounds have had better success. Maybe it's down to the upbringing?

Majority of Pakistani's in the UK would be considered 'uneducated'. Specially those in the North. The fact that Pakistani's in the UK are not getting enough representation in boardrooms, courts or other positions of power is down to themselves not making an effort to get a seat in these places. Those who have made an effort managed to get there.

 

[miandadrules]

I was thinking the same, certainly in Pakistan you could argue Pak lives seem to matter less, but you could make that argument about Africa as well with regard to blacks.

Without a doubt the lives of the “underclass” in Pakistan are treated as having no value, regardless of faith.

We’re Pakistanis and can influence Pakistani policy and society, thus I’d expect us to focus on that more than the same issue in Africa.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Is the lack of presentation down to institutiobal racism or from lack of required skills necessary for the respective role? Keep in mind minorities of other backgrounds have had better success. Maybe it's down to the upbringing?

I think the debate has moved on from institutional racism to unconscious racism when we are talking about the BLM movement. So when a white person is reviewing a CV of Tariq Ahmed will they be unconsciously wondering if the applicant is a potential terrorist or perhaps grooms disadvantaged white girls?

 

[MenInG]

Sensitive topic - one's position on this can easily be construed as unsympathetic towards BLM movement.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I think the debate has moved on from institutional racism to unconscious racism when we are talking about the BLM movement. So when a white person is reviewing a CV of Tariq Ahmed will they be unconsciously wondering if the applicant is a potential terrorist or perhaps grooms disadvantaged white girls?

The opposite happened with me once..I recommended a pakistani female candidate despite her not being satisfactory in the interview, just because I was not comfortable with her thinking that my nationality was the reason she got rejected.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Sensitive topic - one's position on this can easily be construed as unsympathetic towards BLM movement.

Actually it is the very fact that we have at least three topics covering the BLM movement that inspired this thread. It seems Pakistanis ( and Indians) have plenty of opinions about the situation of black people in western countries, but have less sympathy for Pakistanis - the general consensus being they are responsible for their own reputation. Which you could argue is also the case for black people.

Also I must admit I have been itching to start a topic called Pak lives Matter just because it rhymes with Black Lives Matter.

 

[Thulsa]

Sensitive topic - one's position on this can easily be construed as unsympathetic towards BLM movement.

I’ll be controversial then - a lot of what ails black people in my opinion are largely self inflicted. The world is not black and white - it’s diversity is such that there is a lot of other colour in there.

Do I condone century old systems of slavery, precipitated by colonisation, conquest etc? No I do not. But many cultures have been affected by this - Indians, Asians, Muslims, Jews etc. Most however have progressed and broken the shackles. Not always on parity granted, but progressed - all but one - black countries/communities/Countries.

That’s the million dollar question. What is holding the black community back - is it external actors/circumstances or is it largely self inflicted. I suspect it is mainly the latter. Controversial perhaps, but find me one success story of a large black community ‘making it’.

 

[Thulsa]

Tried to edit my post but couldn’t.

I wanted to add that whenever a position of change is achieved, instead of making a difference for the people, it often turns into consolidation of power, corruption and in some cases persecution ‘of their own’.

Black households in Africa still have servants - that always baffles me - that is the last place on earth I would expect to see this and yet it’s there in all it’s glory. And let’s not go into who the main users of the infamous ‘N’ word are.

Black lives matter? Or is it really Black lives matter*.

* as long as it doesn’t inconvenience me.

 

[miandadrules]

I’ll be controversial then - a lot of what ails black people in my opinion are largely self inflicted. The world is not black and white - it’s diversity is such that there is a lot of other colour in there.

Do I condone century old systems of slavery, precipitated by colonisation, conquest etc? No I do not. But many cultures have been affected by this - Indians, Asians, Muslims, Jews etc. Most however have progressed and broken the shackles. Not always on parity granted, but progressed - all but one - black countries/communities/Countries.

That’s the million dollar question. What is holding the black community back - is it external actors/circumstances or is it largely self inflicted. I suspect it is mainly the latter. Controversial perhaps, but find me one success story of a large black community ‘making it’.

How much have you read in to the topic to
come up with such conclusions?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

 

[miandadrules]

Tried to edit my post but couldn’t.

I wanted to add that whenever a position of change is achieved, instead of making a difference for the people, it often turns into consolidation of power, corruption and in some cases persecution ‘of their own’.

Black households in Africa still have servants - that always baffles me - that is the last place on earth I would expect to see this and yet it’s there in all it’s glory. And let’s not go into who the main users of the infamous ‘N’ word are.

Black lives matter? Or is it really Black lives matter*.

* as long as it doesn’t inconvenience me.

Black people can’t have catering and cleaning staff. Are you equating it with slavery?

N-word? What’s your point?

 

[Firebat]

I’ll be controversial then - a lot of what ails black people in my opinion are largely self inflicted. The world is not black and white - it’s diversity is such that there is a lot of other colour in there.

Do I condone century old systems of slavery, precipitated by colonisation, conquest etc? No I do not. But many cultures have been affected by this - Indians, Asians, Muslims, Jews etc. Most however have progressed and broken the shackles. Not always on parity granted, but progressed - all but one - black countries/communities/Countries.

That’s the million dollar question. What is holding the black community back - is it external actors/circumstances or is it largely self inflicted. I suspect it is mainly the latter. Controversial perhaps, but find me one success story of a large black community ‘making it’.

Do you know about the race massacres, segregation, redlining, housing market discrimination, racial wealth inequality, mass incarceration, the prison-industrial complex? Are you one of those people that think black people are poor because they listen to too much gangster music? I'm glad you have your suspicions as to what is holding them back, now try to ground these suspicions in fact.

 

[coy0607]

don't think OP gets the point of the BLM movement. There is implicit, systematic racism in the system against black folks. Pakistani's, or other minorities may face outright racism, but that is very different and not what the movement is about. Ultimately there always has been, and will always be racism in the world. Implicit racism by large institutions can be defeated

 

[coy0607]

Tried to edit my post but couldn’t.

I wanted to add that whenever a position of change is achieved, instead of making a difference for the people, it often turns into consolidation of power, corruption and in some cases persecution ‘of their own’.

Black households in Africa still have servants - that always baffles me - that is the last place on earth I would expect to see this and yet it’s there in all it’s glory. And let’s not go into who the main users of the infamous ‘N’ word are.

Black lives matter? Or is it really Black lives matter*.

* as long as it doesn’t inconvenience me.

What, servants baffle you? What does having servants have to do with anything?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

don't think OP gets the point of the BLM movement. There is implicit, systematic racism in the system against black folks. Pakistani's, or other minorities may face outright racism, but that is very different and not what the movement is about. Ultimately there always has been, and will always be racism in the world. Implicit racism by large institutions can be defeated

Why is there systematic racism against black people above other minorities? Isn't it just the case that other minorities tend to be more self-sufficient, even if it means selling trinkets on the streets or driving cabs? I don't see why blacks would be treated more harshly than other ethnics all things being equal.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Why is there systematic racism against black people above other minorities? Isn't it just the case that other minorities tend to be more self-sufficient, even if it means selling trinkets on the streets or driving cabs? I don't see why blacks would be treated more harshly than other ethnics all things being equal.

The problem is not with blacks as a race, problem is their culture which is keeping them backward. Unfortunately criticism of culture is also called racism by those who don't want their culture to be scrutinised.

 

[shaz619]

Why is there systematic racism against black people above other minorities? Isn't it just the case that other minorities tend to be more self-sufficient, even if it means selling trinkets on the streets or driving cabs? I don't see why blacks would be treated more harshly than other ethnics all things being equal.

The concerns surrounding systematic racism against black people predominately stems from deep rooted oppression in the United States historically against them such as their enslavement, it is part of the reason why you see so much emotion due to the past; that is not to say other minorities don't face prejudices but those issues being highlighted detract from the black grievances.

You don't get the civil rights bill via multiculturalism, it was achieved by bringing to light the discrimination of African Americans. It doesn't mean you can't collaborate with organisations representing other cultures, we've seen this ourselves in the UK through the OWAAD in the 70s; ultimately though it is a natural tendency to stick to your agenda, the Latinos stick to theirs, the Jews stick to their agenda and African Americans have still included others in the past despite the focus on their issues; the result of this is a civil rights bill as an example which everyone else benefits from directly.

All lives do matter but this shouldn't be used to detract from the specific issues surrounding the prejudices which African Americans face and the concerns they have. This goes beyond the criticisms of their community, the law is there for a reason and murder inspired by racism shouldn't be justified as a result.

There is no doubt that these movements are commercially exploited and the criticisms surrounding how one should convey their message is valid, but it is a message which shouldn't be ignored nevertheless. If others feel their own community issues are being marginalised then they are free to convey that feeling because that makes more sense to me then criticising other movements conveniently during the times when racism against black people is being raised.

 

[coy0607]

Why is there systematic racism against black people above other minorities? Isn't it just the case that other minorities tend to be more self-sufficient, even if it means selling trinkets on the streets or driving cabs? I don't see why blacks would be treated more harshly than other ethnics all things being equal.

There is research that shows that when a black person goes to apply for a small business loan - their application is more likely to get rejected when compared to the exact same application from another race. Same thing goes for mortgages, or interviewing for a job, etc. That isn't explicit racism, its subtle and systematic.

Pakistani's, Indians, Chinese, etc don't face the same type of implicit racism. They may face outward, in your face racism, but not the systemic racism.

Hopefully this clarifies. You really should read in to what is driving the BLM movement before making these general statements on racism.

 

[Local.Dada]

Pak,Indian,Spanish, Hindu,Muslims, Scientologists, Gay,Straight, Man,Woman etc etc all lives matter. Even Animal lives matter, just because you eat meat doesn’t give you the right to just torture an innocent animal for pleasure.

So what’s your point?

Black Lives Matter was in response to the police brutality and trend of such cases coming to the fore front. It’s dumb way to counter that.

All Lives matter is common sense and understood, Black Lives matter is a protest against some specific bias and discrimination.

I am surprised this basic comprehension is being overlooked by a resident British man without any influence from rest of the commonwealth that he takes pride in ruling over.

 

[Bigboii]

Is this related to Pak lives in UK Cap ? Where Neutral Brit's/Pakistanis are concerned about Pakistanis being targeted by the police, like they do Negros in Western countries ?? I am little confused with this thread..

You could have said blacks because n***o is a derogatory word not saying that you're but it comes off wrong

 

[sweep_shot]

Pakistani lives matter. Black lives matter. Palestinian lives matter. Kashmiri lives matter. Rohingya lives matter. Uighur lives matter. Yemeni lives matter. All other lives matter.

We have to fix all injustices.

 

[sweep_shot]

Why is there systematic racism against black people above other minorities? Isn't it just the case that other minorities tend to be more self-sufficient, even if it means selling trinkets on the streets or driving cabs? I don't see why blacks would be treated more harshly than other ethnics all things being equal.

You have a very good point. I actually have this same sentiment.

Is there systematic racism? Very likely.

Will fixing systematic racism suddenly fix everything for black people? Probably not.

I think all people (including black people) need to take individual responsibilities along with fixing systematic racism. That's probably the only logical way to make things better for everyone.

This world is not fair and if you don't act responsibly, you may struggle (doesn't matter what race).

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The concerns surrounding systematic racism against black people predominately stems from deep rooted oppression in the United States historically against them such as their enslavement, it is part of the reason why you see so much emotion due to the past; that is not to say other minorities don't face prejudices but those issues being highlighted detract from the black grievances.

You don't get the civil rights bill via multiculturalism, it was achieved by bringing to light the discrimination of African Americans. It doesn't mean you can't collaborate with organisations representing other cultures, we've seen this ourselves in the UK through the OWAAD in the 70s; ultimately though it is a natural tendency to stick to your agenda, the Latinos stick to theirs, the Jews stick to their agenda and African Americans have still included others in the past despite the focus on their issues; the result of this is a civil rights bill as an example which everyone else benefits from directly.

All lives do matter but this shouldn't be used to detract from the specific issues surrounding the prejudices which African Americans face and the concerns they have. This goes beyond the criticisms of their community, the law is there for a reason and murder inspired by racism shouldn't be justified as a result.

There is no doubt that these movements are commercially exploited and the criticisms surrounding how one should convey their message is valid, but it is a message which shouldn't be ignored nevertheless. If others feel their own community issues are being marginalised then they are free to convey that feeling because that makes more sense to me then criticising other movements conveniently during the times when racism against black people is being raised.

Good post, I guess the history of slavery does give a slightly different edge to the blacks experience in America, but I was not really meaning to detract from the BLM movement, just expressing a view that maybe others have their own issues, especially outside America.

British cops don't go round shooting blacks in London for example, it's not the same as in the US.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Pak,Indian,Spanish, Hindu,Muslims, Scientologists, Gay,Straight, Man,Woman etc etc all lives matter. Even Animal lives matter, just because you eat meat doesn’t give you the right to just torture an innocent animal for pleasure.

So what’s your point?

Black Lives Matter was in response to the police brutality and trend of such cases coming to the fore front. It’s dumb way to counter that.

All Lives matter is common sense and understood, Black Lives matter is a protest against some specific bias and discrimination.

I am surprised this basic comprehension is being overlooked by a resident British man without any influence from rest of the commonwealth that he takes pride in ruling over.

Not really sure what you are saying there, just seems to be a jumble of general statements which are going round and you have copy and pasted here, but not very coherently.

But thanks for your input.

 

[shaz619]

Good post, I guess the history of slavery does give a slightly different edge to the blacks experience in America, but I was not really meaning to detract from the BLM movement, just expressing a view that maybe others have their own issues, especially outside America.

British cops don't go round shooting blacks in London for example, it's not the same as in the US.

The experiences between the UK and USA certainly are unique. We don't have the same level of grievances as those in the United States if am honest and in some cases the protests can potentially bring out the worst in people, we saw this during the Birmingham riots in 2011 when 3 fellas defending our communities were murdered. We can certainly improve and are not perfect but the environment in the UK generally is a bit more inclusive and the police are not so trigger happy, we did have major concerns in the 70s and 80s; especially when the 1st gen Afro Caribbean and Asians arrived as you know; I feel that the current generation of teenagers need to learn about what they went through.