Should the fact Virat Kohli is playing on flat pitches and inferior bowlers be held against him?

[Hasan123]

Compared to players of other generations Virat Kohli is facing inferior bowlers and on flat pitches, should this be used against him when comparing him to the great LO batsmen?

My opinion is Virat can only play what's in front of him, and if it was that easy surely others of this generation would have a similar or better record.

How about you guy? Will the modern day rules, pitches, and quality of bowling be held against Virat when we compare him to the LO greats or do you think it's irrelevant?

Discuss.......

 

[The_KING]

You can only play what's in front of you. But that's why you shouldn't compare players from different generations. Kohli is the best of his generation but comparing him to players from 15-20 years back such as Sachin is unfair on Kohli and Sachin because the game of cricket just like any other sport is constantly evolving and changing. That's why I'm not a fan of all these top 5/top 10 lists of greatest batsmen, bowlers whatever. Cricket today is a different sport to what it was in the 1980s.

 

[Hasan123]

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[kingusama92]

Flat pitches shouldn't be an issue.

The scores go up across the board. Kohli isn't the only one cashing in. He's just doing it better than everyone else by a fair distance.

Inferior bowling can be brought up. Which then make you wonder were those bowlers good or were the pitches worse?



Around and around we go.

 

[Moiza]

No. There are hundreds of other players and I dont see them doing the stuff kohli is doing. The uniqueness of Kohli is not affected by the bowling or the pitch. His real capability is to read the situation and pace the innings to perfection and when you combine that with his fitness, running and dedication I dont see can he not end his career as the greatest LOI batsman of all time.

 

[FlickedOffHips]

...I wouldn't be so harsh on Amir

 

[Mamoon]

He is already the second best all-round batsman from Asia, only Tendulkar is ahead of him now. He has surpassed Gavaskar, Dravid, Miandad, Inzamam, Aravinda, Sangakkara etc., and I am certain that he will surpass Tendulkar as well.

I have never seen a more driven and committed cricketer than Kohli. He may not be the most gifted player but he has surpassed everyone with his obsession. He badly wants to be the best, and I don't see the same passion in his contemporaries like Root, Smith, Williamson, de Kock etc.

A player who is mad about his game will excel in any era, because he is a product of training.

 

[Mamoon]

People who downplay Kohli's achievements because of flat pitches ignore the fact that he doesn't get to face the Indian bowling, but will not let go of any opportunity to call the Indian bowling poor.

The hypocrisy of his critics is appalling. He is the best batsman in the world by quite some distance, deal with it.

 

[Hasan123]

He is already the second best all-round batsman from Asia, only Tendulkar is ahead of him now. He has surpassed Gavaskar, Dravid, Miandad, Inzamam, Aravinda, Sangakkara etc., and I am certain that he will surpass Tendulkar as well.

I have never seen a more driven and committed cricketer than Kohli. He may not be the most gifted player but he has surpassed everyone with his obsession. He badly wants to be the best, and I don't see the same passion in his contemporaries like Root, Smith, Williamson, de Kock etc.

A player who is mad about his game will excel in any era, because he is a product of training.

Lol he's more gifted than your giving him credit for, agree with the last line.

 

[FlickedOffHips]

People who downplay Kohli's achievements because of flat pitches ignore the fact that he doesn't get to face the Indian bowling, but will not let go of any opportunity to call the Indian bowling poor.

The hypocrisy of his critics is appalling. He is the best batsman in the world by quite some distance, deal with it.

This hurts but there's truth in it.

 

[MMHS]

Better batting condition, smaller boundary, weaker attack these does add to the stats, but Virat isn't famous for his stats actually. Smith & Root as better stats, probably Amla & AB as well.

Probably, 4 years back, in my first post on him I wrote that, if any one breaks STD's record by volume, it'll be Virat - main reason for that post was the cheaper batting stats these days, better fitness regime & his hunger for batting. In that regard, I still don't think as a batsman he is there - but, as I said, his attributes are different; which can't be measured by stats only.

 

[Hasan123]

[MENTION=46929]shaz619[/MENTION], share your opinion in this thread. Let's see what others think.

 

[MMHS]

People who downplay Kohli's achievements because of flat pitches ignore the fact that he doesn't get to face the Indian bowling, but will not let go of any opportunity to call the Indian bowling poor.

The hypocrisy of his critics is appalling. He is the best batsman in the world by quite some distance, deal with it.

But, again it's a double standard by you - for that, I can bring your recent posts regarding Indian attack & PAK attack. In that regard, you are doing exactly what you are accusing others.

I don't think, in India, it's easier to face Indian attack than SAF, NZ, ENG, AUS attack; hence what AB, Ken, Root faced recently or what Smith will face in short time, doesn't justify your logic.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Of course you are only as good as the opposition you face or the toughness of conditions you face but Kohli would have been a top batsmen in any era imo.

 

[Mamoon]

But, again it's a double standard by you - for that, I can bring your recent posts regarding Indian attack & PAK attack. In that regard, you are doing exactly what you are accusing others.

I don't think, in India, it's easier to face Indian attack than SAF, NZ, ENG, AUS attack; hence what AB, Ken, Root faced recently or what Smith will face in short time, doesn't justify your logic.

You misunderstood - this is not my argument. I don't consider the Indian bowling weak, and I don't belittle Kohli because of the flat tracks nonsense.

I'm calling out those people who belittle him for scoring on flat tracks and these same people also make fun of the poor Indian bowling (we are mostly talking about ODIs here, not Tests matches with Ashwin/Jadeja as opposition bowlers), yet they ignore the fact that Kohli does not have the luxury of facing Dinda, Yadav, Bumrah, Pandya type bowlers.

One can only imagine what he will do to these folks, but we do get a glimpse of it in the IPL.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

He will get his chances to prove himself against quality attacks.

 

[Mamoon]

Lol he's more gifted than your giving him credit for, agree with the last line.

Sure he is mighty talented. An average joe can train harder than Kohli but he won't go beyond his state team, but I don't think ability wise he is a Tendulkar, Lara or even de Villiers.

A player like Rohit Sharma could have surpassed Kohli if he had the same commitment and drive to succeed.

 

[shaz619]

It shouldn't be held against him because in the modern era he's quality on these roads, but I'd stop right there before advocating his undisputed greatness; am pretty sure only fans who started watching cricket 10 years ago and casual fans agree that he's the best.

 

[ask_analyse_act]

he has struggled in England... But he is a workhorse and will do well to prove against quality attack and in tricky pitches...he will feast in Asia but outside asia his AVG drops which is normal...

 

[Justcrazy]

He cannot go back in time and prove himself , he can play in this era only.

 

[MMHS]

You misunderstood - this is not my argument. I don't consider the Indian bowling weak, and I don't belittle Kohli because of the flat tracks nonsense.

I'm calling out those people who belittle him for scoring on flat tracks and these same people also make fun of the poor Indian bowling (we are mostly talking about ODIs here, not Tests matches with Ashwin/Jadeja as opposition bowlers), yet they ignore the fact that Kohli does not have the luxury of facing Dinda, Yadav, Bumrah, Pandya type bowlers.

One can only imagine what he will do to these folks, but we do get a glimpse of it in the IPL.

But, again I have a reservation in your comments. It's not about Virat, I am a big fan of him - it's about your post. I understand, being rebellion or the devils advocate is a different status; but over doing something is not good.

I give another example - more or less, you have taken everything out of YK from helmet to underwear - UAE Khan, FTB, dancer .... I can go on. Same you are almost poet Kalidas, regarding Virat's last AUS tour - do you think, we don't understand cricket or don't watch it?

The topic of this post is, if Virat's stats should be held against him or not. My point is, NO - he is playing what is available in front of him. But, this is also true that he is playing in an era where batting stats are inflated for the nature of the game. Now, there are many players with 40/80 sort of stats - while Allen Border has 32/69 stats .... therefore that debate remains valid.

However, I think measuring Virat with stats is actually devaluing him - statistically, he is just at per with at least half a dozen contemporary player (he has 2 great home series hence now the stats are high - 3 months back, his Test average was in mid 40s - same can be said for Azhar - he is now batting at 48 average, as opener probably in 70s - in 10 Tests, 7 outside Asia without ZIM/WI, for an Asian opener, that's outstanding - but it's a small part of his career when he has hit the top).

Virat is far better player than what stats suggests, because he is contributing in win. Same can be said for Smith as well - and you said that for Root before he came to Asia, again you'll say that in English summer, before he goes to AUS.

These 4 are comparable to any era's top 4/5 players - I can say that beyond stats. How much ST would average now or Virat would have averaged in 90s is immaterial. By the way, Virat's IPL performance are not that great - if IPL is the benchmark, then you have to change your tone for AB De Villers ......

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

I do agree in one aspect - 80% of Virat Kohli is his personalty, his commitment & his dedication; which has taken him to this level. In that regard, he is parallel to only 2 cricketers that I have seen Tendulkar & Imran. Two extremely committed cricketer, whose focus was to reach at the top - talent can only take one to a certain level.

I think, it was Sir Alex once told to Cantona - if you don't train backing your skills, them players with less talent will catch you & you'll not be able to run away from them, because you haven't trained yourself for that race.

 

[Haz95]

What I wrote in another thread....

People downplay people like Bradman for not having to play ATG bowlers and whatnot but when it comes to Kohli it's all fun and games. Kohli has not been presented with real ATG bowlers and/or conditions to make a judgement on whether he's in argument of being the greatest ODI batsman ever. Viv and Sachin comparison is far more understandable since not only did they careers overlap, both played ATG bowlers and/or tough conditions (that too with ease).

Does this mean Kohli can't play against ATG bowler? Nope. Does it however mean unfortunately lacks feats? Yes.

It's the same reason why Younis Khan cannot be rated an ATG batsman (haters and f4nboys aside); had he excelled in the away tours he missed, he would've been rated as a bonafide ATG but alas he couldn't. He also could've failed miserably (altho the fact that he scored a 200 in England and a 100 odd in Australia at the age of 43 however....) but unfortunately he was never provided with the opportunity therefore one simply cannot rate him ATG even tho there is evidence suggesting that he perhaps could.

Now onto Kohli, when provided with harsher conditions, i.e. the Indo/Pak series in 2012, he failed miserably(same reason why I rate Dhoni so highly for managing to score a 100 then). Can current Kohli do so? Maybe...but since he doesn't have the feats...we don't know. The fact is, it's all based on hyperboles.

A big challenge for Kohli should be how he handles Mitchell Starc, Rabada, Mustafizur Rahman and perhaps Imran Tahir(All of whom are brilliant ODI bowlers). If he can handle them with relative ease(especially not on the tripe wickets of today), then it's likely he could pass Sachin. At the moment however, he's still behind.

 

[MMHS]

Think, Virat is a champion compititor, more than anything.

His domestic stats are comfortably inferior to his international stats, where he doesn't even face Dinda & Pandeya or Bumrah. More or less, each of his team mates has at lest 10 to 15 higher average in domestics - this suggests actually that Virat excels when there is something at stake. It's not about whom he is playing against rather, at what context he is playing.

This is an unique quality - very few cricketer had this ability of raising on occasion. Viv was like that (his FC average is lower than Test, List A as well), Imran was like that, Lillee was like that, Warne was like that, Lara as well - these players are driven more by their ego than their skills.

 

[Sachin136]

Yes, and that's why he is still rated below Sachin, Viv etc despite being statistically ahead of them.

 

[ads101]

Think, Virat is a champion compititor, more than anything.

His domestic stats are comfortably inferior to his international stats, where he doesn't even face Dinda & Pandeya or Bumrah. More or less, each of his team mates has at lest 10 to 15 higher average in domestics - this suggests actually that Virat excels when there is something at stake. It's not about whom he is playing against rather, at what context he is playing.

This is an unique quality - very few cricketer had this ability of raising on occasion. Viv was like that (his FC average is lower than Test, List A as well), Imran was like that, Lillee was like that, Warne was like that, Lara as well - these players are driven more by their ego than their skills.

Kohli averages 1.5 runs less in international test cricket than first class average and 1 run more in ODIs than list A. T20s fair enough he does average far more. So comfortably inferior is not really right.

Think the reason his domestic stats aren't far better is because he played international cricket too early. If he'd be left in domestic, he would have boosted them up before starting internationals. But that's better as it shows he made the jump to international cricket very easily.

Similar situation to Yousuf. Averaged a lot more in international cricket. People say it's because our domestic structure is terrible, or use him as the one example who did much better than domestic (he is rare in that regard). But think it's simply he played international cricket early, if he had stayed for longer in domestic before getting picked, sure he would have got those numbers up. After he became an automatic pick, domestic just became mainly practice for him.

 

[MMHS]

Kohli averages 1.5 runs less in international test cricket than first class average and 1 run more in ODIs than list A. T20s fair enough he does average far more. So comfortably inferior is not really right.

Think the reason his domestic stats aren't far better is because he played international cricket too early. If he'd be left in domestic, he would have boosted them up before starting internationals. But that's better as it shows he made the jump to international cricket very easily.

Similar situation to Yousuf. Averaged a lot more in international cricket. People say it's because our domestic structure is terrible, or use him as the one example who did much better than domestic (he is rare in that regard). But think it's simply he played international cricket early, if he had stayed for longer in domestic before getting picked, sure he would have got those numbers up. After he became an automatic pick, domestic just became mainly practice for him.

PAK's domestic batting stats are often lower because of the nature of the wicket there - not only MoYo, few others also has the same. But, in Indian domestics, every season there are several players averaging over 60 - most of Kohli's team mates are averaging in 60s or close to it.

My post was regarding his possible higher scores if he had batted against Dindas & Arons, which doesn't work that way. Outside his 53 Tests, he has only 32 other FC matches in 10+ years & few of those are also for IND in tours, therefore I don't think he had played that many domestics in early age. The logic that Mamoon gave, for that, one should expect an average of 65+ against Dindas & Arons & Yadavs.

But yes, he was picked very early in that Indian line up which helped him developing the game.

 

[Sadevdesai]

Flat pitches and inferior opposition bowlers are Not his doing. He plays against whatever that is put in front of him !!!!

 

[Chrish]

It comes down to the same argument as Bradman..

If a player faced easier conditions, so did everyone else around him.. how come no one comes close to that player ?

I don't see anyone else doing things Kohli is currently doing

 

[jnaveen1980]

Every generation has its own share of pie chuckers. Even great bowlers have been cartered around by some random guy. Apart from bats one of the biggest difference is ATTITUDE. Even then they could do. But no attitude was there. I remember a ODI where Imran Khan smashing 3 sixes in one over of Garner who was bowling 50th over. But if you look at the other 49 overs attitude was just conservative. Ambrose for all his talent had his share of getting pummelled around. Basit Ali smashed him all over at Sharjah. Kaluwitharana , Jayasuriya pair changed the attitude , approach of the game. Greatbatch sure did his bit for strategy reasons. Before Srikkanth was the only one opener who went after bowling from first over. He did both in Tests and ODIs. Then Afridi emerged. Gilchrist , Sehwag emerged. T20 arrived. Flood gates opened. ABDV is capable of murdering any bowling attack in any era (just take away pressure ). He is just brilliant. Kohli is similar to that. Thankfully we witnessed Kohli alongside some of the greats. I remember the 'Mendis series' where he first time faced Mendis and played him with ridiculous ease. It gives us a perspective what a bloody good player he is. Majority of the pitches they used in the 80s were flat pitches too. Only select players like Richards, Kapil dev, Srikkanth showed the intent.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I am going to give a test match as an example. Just look at the score card. Mainly pay attention to the run rate of first 3 innings. West Indies had just mandatory overs left to score all the runs on day 5. About 25 or 30 overs. That's it. Look what happens when you show intent.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63335.html

 

[jnaveen1980]

Few more examples. This match . India could have chased the total in 50th over patiently. THey did in 32 overs. Why? That was to avoid Pakistan and face England in the semi final. Gavaskar running a fever of 103 degrees made 103 runs. It is another story both India and Pakistan got kicked out in the semis Another match where batsmen did nothing but change their attitude.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/65114.html


Another match is India vs Srilanka.

India made 299/4 in 40 overs. Look at the response by SL. One of the breathtaking match. I almost felt sorry for Mahanama when he was run out. Again attitude is all you need.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/64300.html

 

[shaz619]

It comes down to the same argument as Bradman..

If a player faced easier conditions, so did everyone else around him.. how come no one comes close to that player ?

I don't see anyone else doing things Kohli is currently doing

That's an interesting point because Kohli isn't that far ahead, Bradman averaged 99.

 

[Chrish]

That's an interesting point because Kohli isn't that far ahead, Bradman averaged 99.

it's an analogy rather than comparison..

 

[Chrish]

No one that I can think of has consistently scored the runs Kohli has even under "easier" conditions while chasing which is said to be the most difficult task in ODI format.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

Lol he was made to look like a proper bunny by none other than trundling Junaid of all people..... Looses the plot the minute the ball starts to laterally deviate even by an inch.

A okish batsman at best. Would have struggled in the 90s for sure !!

 

[Pollack]

That's an interesting point because Kohli isn't that far ahead, Bradman averaged 99.

You cannot average 99 in Odis also In Bradman time test matches were played longer so batsman has more time for 99 average.

 

[Pollack]

Lol he was made to look like a proper bunny by none other than trundling Junaid of all people..... Looses the plot the minute the ball starts to laterally deviate even by an inch.

A okish batsman at best.

Was this meant to be a bait.

 

[street cricketer]

Kohli and AB are definitely special players and undoubtedly the two top players of this era in LOIs. But they are also a product of the modern ODI era of small boundaries and flat tracks.

It's the only reason I rate Viv, Sachin, etc. ahead. They batted against better bowlers in a far less batting friendly era. Even though both AB and Kohli are a league above the other batsman at present in ODI cricket, I still hesitate to rate them at the very top unless they pitch in with some stellar performances in the world cup or against the few top bowlers of this era. Both haven't done anything of note in world cups to match their otherwise stellar career. Kohli failed to win the ODI series in Australia with the bat and similarly AB failed to do so in Australia against the likes of Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins. They need to have a great 2019 world cup to put them in conversation with Viv and Sachin. Ftr, I do think both are peerless in bilaterals in history but I would like them to translate it into world tournaments before crowning them the ultimate king.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

Was this meant to be a bait.

It's the truth brother, something Kohli fans conveniently ignore ALL THE TIME !!

 

[QalandarFan]

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) Haha is this suppose to be me? Lahore QalandarFan! )

Although if you ask for my opinion on this thread the answer is simple for me how come he's the only one dominating like he his at the moment. Just because he play's on flat pitches you can not downplay his outstanding performance!

He's probably the greatest chaser in the format he's got 17 2nd innings hundreds in around 96 innings, and 3 of them have come in 350 plus chases.

Every time India has chased 350 which is a total 3 times Virat Kohli has scored a hundred. Now that's an impressive feat flat pitches or not.

He is an extremely hardworking cricketer who goes above and beyond to try and become better, we can't compare him to batsman of the past but he is definitely doing much better than everyone else. Even if the pitches are flat it is still not easy to score the way he, otherwise why isn't everyone else as good as him?

So all I'm saying is it shouldn't be held against him because that is something he can not control, although I still rank Tendulkar higher as a better overall batsman but my word if I had to choose a batsman to chase a big total for me in ODI's I'd chose Virat!

 

[jnaveen1980]

Kohli and AB are definitely special players and undoubtedly the two top players of this era in LOIs. But they are also a product of the modern ODI era of small boundaries and flat tracks.

It's the only reason I rate Viv, Sachin, etc. ahead. They batted against better bowlers in a far less batting friendly era. Even though both AB and Kohli are a league above the other batsman at present in ODI cricket, I still hesitate to rate them at the very top unless they pitch in with some stellar performances in the world cup or against the few top bowlers of this era. Both haven't done anything of note in world cups to match their otherwise stellar career. Kohli failed to win the ODI series in Australia with the bat and similarly AB failed to do so in Australia against the likes of Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins. They need to have a great 2019 world cup to put them in conversation with Viv and Sachin. Ftr, I do think both are peerless in bilaterals in history but I would like them to translate it into world tournaments before crowning them the ultimate king.

eh? Tenduklar did not score a 100 in Australia for a very long time in Australia in the one dayers before he finally did in 2007. Kohli payed brilliantly in Australia. Sadly bowlers were crappy. These arbitrary conditions should no way diminish the quality of batsmen. Kohli has played some crucial knocks in T20 so far. It is not beyond his abilities to repeat the same in 50 over format. He is the ultimate pressure cooker player especially while chasing. World cup matches.. Tendulkar did well in preliminary matches. But faltered in all important finals not once but twice. That shouldn't diminish him as a batsman. If you use that yardstick Gilly is a better batsman than Tendulkar.

 

[Sachin136]

Kohli and AB are definitely special players and undoubtedly the two top players of this era in LOIs. But they are also a product of the modern ODI era of small boundaries and flat tracks.

It's the only reason I rate Viv, Sachin, etc. ahead. They batted against better bowlers in a far less batting friendly era. Even though both AB and Kohli are a league above the other batsman at present in ODI cricket, I still hesitate to rate them at the very top unless they pitch in with some stellar performances in the world cup or against the few top bowlers of this era. Both haven't done anything of note in world cups to match their otherwise stellar career. Kohli failed to win the ODI series in Australia with the bat and similarly AB failed to do so in Australia against the likes of Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins. They need to have a great 2019 world cup to put them in conversation with Viv and Sachin. Ftr, I do think both are peerless in bilaterals in history but I would like them to translate it into world tournaments before crowning them the ultimate king.

Kohli scored 2 centuries, a 90 and a 50 in the ODI series in Australia. If those performances (along with Rohit's centuries) can't win India the series, it isn't their fault.

 

[Speedster777]

Don't rate Kohli very high he's lucky to be playing in era of flat wickets and mediocre bowling. I reckon had Asif been around he would have exploited Kohli's weaknesses just like Junaid did. But apart from that, Kohli is a very hard woking player. I like his focus and determination which our players Like umar akmal lack. But I would rate Tendulkar, Dravid, Ganguly, Gavaskar much higher than Kohli anyday.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Don't rate Kohli very high he's lucky to be playing in era of flat wickets and mediocre bowling. I reckon had Asif been around he would have exploited Kohli's weaknesses just like Junaid did. But apart from that, Kohli is a very hard woking player. I like his focus and determination which our players Like umar akmal lack. But I would rate Tendulkar, Dravid, Ganguly, Gavaskar much higher than Kohli anyday.

Bit like saying Hansi cronje troubled sachin.. so he is not a good player. lol

 

[Cricfan4eva]

lol this is such an absurd claim that bowlers of this era are inferior.

 

[160KPH]

No it certainly shouldn't. But some people are reaching and saying he's far greater than he is. If he can continue the performances like this for another few years outside of Asia he can be top 5 all time potentially.

In my eyes, AB is still better right now. He averaged above 50 for 7 seasons in a row. He's far more explosive and far more innovative.

 

[ahsan17]

Most ODI pitches these days are flat. The ones in England, South Africa, Australia, NZ (the Pakistan series appears to be an exception so far) are not too different from the ones in India or UAE. He was never a great in tests but given the state of ODI pitches across the globe it can't be held against him.

 

[160KPH]

One thing I do have to say is though, since Virat started focusing on fitness he became a beast. He's far more explosive with his batting and can take fast singles and double almost as good as anyone.

As a Pakistani, I admire his work ethic and certainly wouldn't choose anyone else for a chase. However, during a home season where someone is going through a purple patch it's easy to forget the failures. Last World Cup vs the Aussies comes to mind and ultimately a fail in most knockout matches in ODI. Smith on the other hand has a dominant World Cup and brought home the cup to his country. He also has a Test average of 60.

 

[Zak_Fan]

Should the fact that Wasim and Waqar played in an era where tampering was blatant and batting was difficult held against them? Most of you would say no.

So why so much hate on Kohli? He is head and shoulders above any other batsman in ODIs, and even in Tests he averages 50+ despite playing on Indian rank turners.

 

[Abhilash93]

Sure he is mighty talented. An average joe can train harder than Kohli but he won't go beyond his state team, but I don't think ability wise he is a Tendulkar, Lara or even de Villiers.

A player like Rohit Sharma could have surpassed Kohli if he had the same commitment and drive to succeed.

Absolutely agree.

Yuvraj himself admitted in 2012 - "His work ethic is brilliant, his focus is immense. Since the time he has joined the Indian team, I saw his work ethic and wished and wondered why I didn't have that work ethic when I was his age."

 

[R0H1T]

eh? Tenduklar did not score a 100 in Australia for a very long time in Australia in the one dayers before he finally did in 2007. Kohli payed brilliantly in Australia. Sadly bowlers were crappy. These arbitrary conditions should no way diminish the quality of batsmen. Kohli has played some crucial knocks in T20 so far. It is not beyond his abilities to repeat the same in 50 over format. He is the ultimate pressure cooker player especially while chasing. World cup matches.. Tendulkar did well in preliminary matches. But faltered in all important finals not once but twice. That shouldn't diminish him as a batsman. If you use that yardstick Gilly is a better batsman than Tendulkar.

SRT scored in 4 of the 7 WC knockout games he played in, I'll let you figure out those games. Kohli just 1 in 4 i.e. if you don't take his 2011 WC final knock as a failure.

Ponting/Richards et al, take any other player & see their output in finals. Ricky excelled in 1 out of 4, Viv in 1 out of 3 & really apart from Glichrist no other batter has consistently done well in the WC finals. The biggest stage in cricket globally is named as such for this very reason.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Should the fact that Wasim and Waqar played in an era where tampering was blatant and batting was difficult held against them? Most of you would say no.

So why so much hate on Kohli? He is head and shoulders above any other batsman in ODIs, and even in Tests he averages 50+ despite playing on Indian rank turners.

If India were 68/4 chasing 350.. who would you rather have. I would have Kohli every time. He has some areas where he exceeds Tendulkar much like how Sehwag exceeded Tendulkar in some areas, Dravid exceeded Tendulkar in some areas, Laxman exceedd Tendulkar in some areas. Statistically Tendulkar is far ahead of anyone. Kohli is just 28 already 27 centuries !!!

 

[jnaveen1980]

SRT scored in 4 of the 7 WC knockout games he played in, I'll let you figure out those games. Kohli just 1 in 4 i.e. if you don't take his 2011 WC final knock as a failure.

Ponting/Richards et al, take any other player & see their output in finals. Ricky excelled in 1 out of 4, Viv in 1 out of 3 & really apart from Glichrist no other batter has consistently done well in the WC finals. The biggest stage in cricket globally is named as such for this very reason.

Gilly would trump everyone else because he excelled in the most important stage of world cup. First of all reaching final itself is a rare event. Unless you have substantial number of samples it is hard to hold against anyone. Kohli figured in just one final. It took Tendulkar 7 years after his debut to have a successful world cup. kohli proved in World T20 final with solid contribution.

 

[sarthak]

It's a pretty endless debate about the quality of current batsmen / pitches. But people should consider all aspects instead of picking and choosing what suits them.

So pitches are flatter but several other aspects of the game have changed too. Players are exposed to way more media - print, electronic and especially social media which can be crucifying for them. They play 3 different formats (with all the associated travel/training) and the game is way more professional than ever before. There is an argument the mental and physical demands of the game are higher than ever more.

Also, it's pretty simplistic to assume that all those 'great batsmen' of the 90s would succeed in today's LOI game just because of flat pitches. Today, a successful batsmen requires a power game as much as a ''classical cricket'' orientation. Could all those past great batsmen have done this? Don't think so. We have discussed before how the likes of Azhar Ali/Rahane would have been gun ODI players 10 years ago but tend to struggle with the requirements of the modern game.

Also, by the same logic that its easier for the batsmen today, shouldn't today's bowlers be regarded as ATGs since they are bowling on graveyards with short boundaries and huge bats? So Rabada/Starc are better than McGrath/Wasim and Ashwin must be better than Warne/Murali, no?

Finally, taking statistics alone won't help us compare batsmen since the batsmen being compared to are from different generations. Kohli will have the best stats anyway but what will probably be less in doubt is the match-winning ability this guy has. Assuming he keeps going like this, you can literally count the numerous matches he would have won (or supported to win) for India and that number should comfortably place him in any ATG list for LOIs. Ultimately, that is the impact that a player leaves on a team and a generation of batsmen rather than just stats padding.

The opinion of contemporary good players can't be discounted too. Joe Root just named him in his ALL time great XI - personally think it''s early to do that but shows you the respect he has among current world class players.

 

[jeetu]

Not only Kohli , same is true for other players like Amla , ABD Smith. Unlike 90's , there are not many sub 25 avg bowlers.

 

[Statsman]

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Nope. Its shouldn't. He's hardworking and skilful. Of course its not that easy to assume but I feel would have adapted his game well against Akrams, McGraths and Donalds of the world. Could've given some a few hidings.

 

[RamLakhan]

If you give too much to the current batting friendly conditions, rules, weak-bowlers, etc, I can say that yesteryear batsmen really did not face this much pressure from media and fans. Also cricket was not played so much round the year. How can we say that some of the yesteryear greats would have maintained the same records if they underwent the demands of T20 cricket today!

So the idea is simple, give the due to both eras (there are pros and cons in everything). If somebody achieved something in the past appreciate it and do the same who are doing it now. Somewhere down the line everything gets uniform and balanced/neutralized.

In the same way do want to call someone averaging below 25 or 20 with ball as way-way better bowlers than the past because they are bowling on worst bowling conditions/flat pitches?

 

[Stallion__]

It's less about the pitches and bowlers, more about the player.

Other batsman these days play in same conditions and face same bowlers. But no one wins as many matches for his country as Virat.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

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It can't be held against him but it does make comparing with older era harder.

I am sure most wouldn't question Kohli's ability to win the games for his side.

Even if past players played on these flat tracks, they most likely wouldn't have been as impactful as him.

 

[AuxiliA]

Poor argument!! By the same logic there were not many 45+ batting ave. in the 90's. Shouldn't it be held against Wasim, Waqar?

Coming to the topic, it's nauseating to see people here berate the today's bowlers(& batsmen alike), blatantly calling them sub-standard, without producing any convingcing argument.

Ironically, they don't criticize the bowling 'legends' of past, who supposedly would've inflated their stats in the 'bowler-friendly-pitches' era, when ball-tampering was rampant.

 

[Asim2Good]

the way we analyse players from every aspect of game, then there would hardly any great batsman left.

we dont give credit for home runs
against weak bowling attack
non pressure games
didn't perform in WC/didn't perform in knockouts
failed in Aus or Eng or SA
dont have match winning hundreds
list goes on and on

 

[street cricketer]

eh? Tenduklar did not score a 100 in Australia for a very long time in Australia in the one dayers before he finally did in 2007. Kohli payed brilliantly in Australia. Sadly bowlers were crappy. These arbitrary conditions should no way diminish the quality of batsmen. Kohli has played some crucial knocks in T20 so far. It is not beyond his abilities to repeat the same in 50 over format. He is the ultimate pressure cooker player especially while chasing. World cup matches.. Tendulkar did well in preliminary matches. But faltered in all important finals not once but twice. That shouldn't diminish him as a batsman. If you use that yardstick Gilly is a better batsman than Tendulkar.

Never said performing in Australia is the be all end all of everything. Kohli just needs a great world cup to seal his legacy. He has already achieved greatness even without world cups, ditto with AB. But he needs atleast one great world cup to be considered better than Viv or Sachin.

And no, performing in the final isn't everything. Otherwise Dhoni and Gilchrist would be the GOATs. If you're truly head and shoulders above everyone, you should be expected to boss a world cup like Martin Crowe did in 92, Sachin did in 2003, Klusener did in 99. Tendulkar was the leading run scorer in the 96 world cup at just 23 years of age, was again the top scorer at the 2003 world cup and ended the 2011 world cup as the 2nd leading run scorer at 38 years of age. Ponting similarly dominated in a world cup. Both AB and Kohli haven't even been in the top 2 run scorers in a world cup, let alone being a leading run scorer or winning a man of the series award in a world cup. It is a very fair demand to ask a potential ODI GOAT player to dominate a world cup. He doesn't necessarily have to perform in the final. But should atleast take the team to a final.

Tbh the question of a GOAT in ODI format is a moot one as the format has undergone change more than any other format in the world. It's more relevant in the test format as the format is relatively stable and has been constant over the years, so it's easier to compare across eras. But ODIs have undergone drastic change and what was the requirement for a great ODI player in the 80s may not necessarily hold true now and what is now may not hold true 20-30 years after. It's a bit like football, there have been different legends in different eras like Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo, Zidane, Messi, Ronaldo etc., who are all special in their own unique way and it's difficult to compare them. But all said and done, a strong world cup performance is definitely an important factor while judging them.

 

[street cricketer]

What I do find unique about Kohli is his spatial awareness. Lara was the expert in piercing gaps and placement of boundaries between the fielder. Kohli is probably even better and it's mainly due to his very strong steely wrists through which he can play a same ball through mid wicket or through point for a boundary.

Secondly guy's match awareness stands head and shoulders above everyone. He is the master in playing percentage cricket which is why he has been able to remain consistent for so long. Sachin used to play similarly good innings in chases but used to take more risks than what Kohli does and ended up losing his wicket a lot in the process. Not with Kohli, he will make sure that he's there at the end barring some special ball. There's a reason why Kohli rarely plays the upper cut (that Sachin and Sehwag used to play a lot), ramp shots (like AB or Dilshan), hook shot, etc.

On both these counts, he's superior to Sachin and many other top ODI players. As a result of these two factors, he's able to consistently pitch in with impactful performances over a long period of time.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

What I do find unique about Kohli is his spatial awareness. Lara was the expert in piercing gaps and placement of boundaries between the fielder. Kohli is probably even better and it's mainly due to his very strong steely wrists through which he can play a same ball through mid wicket or through point for a boundary.

Secondly guy's match awareness stands head and shoulders above everyone. He is the master in playing percentage cricket which is why he has been able to remain consistent for so long. Sachin used to play similarly good innings in chases but used to take more risks than what Kohli does and ended up losing his wicket a lot in the process. Not with Kohli, he will make sure that he's there at the end barring some special ball. There's a reason why Kohli rarely plays the upper cut (that Sachin and Sehwag used to play a lot), ramp shots (like AB or Dilshan), hook shot, etc.

On both these counts, he's superior to Sachin and many other top ODI players. As a result of these two factors, he's able to consistently pitch in with impactful performances over a long period of time.

The Best Way to find out whether Kohli is the best or not is to face the only bowler who made him his bunny

 

[street cricketer]

The Best Way to find out whether Kohli is the best or not is to face the only bowler who made him his bunny

Didn't they already face in the Champions trophy in England where all the hype before the match was how Junaid was going to own Kohli again.

That didn't work out well.

 

[LastManstanding]

The Best Way to find out whether Kohli is the best or not is to face the only bowler who made him his bunny

You will have your wish in champions trophy and in the next world cup if you guys manage to qualify

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

Didn't they already face in the Champions trophy in England where all the hype before the match was how Junaid was going to own Kohli again.

That didn't work out well.

Our Boy was carrying an injury and various niggles back then, the real contest will be when both blokes are fit and firing just like how it was at the Ane Do Series

You will have your wish in champions trophy and in the next world cup if you guys manage to qualify

Our hopes of qualifying has surely increased brother after winning a game in Australia, Something India failed to do the previous time they toured down under

Champions Trophy it is then !!

 

[Arham_PakFan]

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This era of flat pitches has a lot of batsmen playing but Kohli has outdone all of them.He is one of the fittest players in the world and is also very talented.He is also the best chaser of this generation(probably all time in ODI's).

A special player and I don't think playing in this era has any effect on his greatness.

 

[street cricketer]

Our Boy was carrying an injury and various niggles back then, the real contest will be when both blokes are fit and firing just like how it was at the Ane Do Series



Our hopes of qualifying has surely increased brother after winning a game in Australia, Something India failed to do the previous time they toured down under

Champions Trophy it is then !!

More than a useless jamodi match or just another tournament group match, I would love to have Pakistan visit India towards the end of this year brother like it's slated in the FTP programme.

Imagine a batting of Vijay, Rahul, Pujara, Kohli, Rahane, Nair against an attack of Amir, Wahab, Yasir, Sohail, etc. Or imagine Azhar, Asad, Babar, Sarfaraz against Ashwin, Jadeja, Jayant or Kuldeep. Would be mouthwatering mashallah

 

[1992CorneredTiger]

As quite a few posters have said, you can only play on the pitch that is in front of you - and he has been phenomenal. Fair enough Tendulkar etc were a different era, but who's to say Kohli couldn't perform in that era? His dedication and hard work is what makes him succeed.

Tendulkar was the Lionel Messi of cricket - genius with natural talent.
Kohli is the Cristiano Ronaldo of cricket - pure hard work and dedication.

 

[Bilal7]

Yes and no. Look, there is no denying that the ODI game has been in constant change over the years. Whether that be cosmetic changes like colored jerseys, changes in playing regulations like powerplays and two new balls or changes in the quantity of matches taking place; the game today is very different to what it was in the 80s. Regardless of what one may feel regarding the difficulty levels that players of different generations encountered, no one will disagree that the game has changed.

Once that is established, it becomes clear that cross-generation comparisons involve quite a bit of speculation and bias. One may feel that Viv would be yet another player if he was one among the many maestros who hit more sixes individually, than teams used to hit collectively in the 80s and 90s. Others may feel that the likes of Kohli and de Villiers would not be able to rack up the numbers they lay claim to if they had to bat on pitches from eras gone by, especially if it was without a helmet!

Everyone has their own opinions and everyone's opinions must be respected but at the end of the day, stats don't lie. If we compare Viv Richards to his contemporaries, we see that he was far and away, the best batsman in the ODI format. No one came close. A similar case can be made for Tendulker during his illustriously long career, even though a few choice names like Ponting, Anwar and Inzamam gave him some good competition.

If we compare Kohli to his contemporaries - and this may be a bitter pill to swallow for some of you - he is not far and away the best batsman in the ODI format. Sure, there have been times when he has been the best ODI batsman in the world, which is true right now because he averages a ridiculous 90+ over the last year or so, but there have also been times where he hasn't been the best in the world and those times are of a greater length than the former.

AB de Villiers, Hashim Amla and MS Dhoni are all fellow batsmen who average 50+ at a SR of around 90 or above. Similar to Kohli's own numbers. They each have their own strengths as well, where they outclass Kohli, just like Kohli outclasses them in his own area of expertise.

Even leaving aside the competition, Kohli has some holes in his resume that he will want to fill in before he hangs up his boots (in a decade for fans of India, tomorrow for everyone else), such as mediocre, if not outright poor, numbers in Australia, England and South Africa, against the home bowling attacks as well as two quiet World Cups.

So in conclusion, leaving aside the speculation of how Kohli would fare on a green, English track against Wasim, Waqar and Imran, India's #1 batsman should concern himself with becoming the best he can possibly be and wiping away any and all of the blotches on his own ODI record. Then, when he retires and actually has the time to read through fan discussions, he'll get to read some pretty persuasive arguments for why he is the best (ODI) batsman of all time.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Deja vu. Same arguments were posted here when comparisons between sachin and viv were made few years ago. Now suddenly sachin faced better bowlers in his era when at that time people were saying these same things. This is why it's better to compare players from the same generation like sachin-ponting-lara or kohli-smith-root-williamson.

 

[Black Zero]

We should not hold this against him, however we should take this in account in our analysis.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

But, again it's a double standard by you - for that, I can bring your recent posts regarding Indian attack & PAK attack. In that regard, you are doing exactly what you are accusing others.

I don't think, in India, it's easier to face Indian attack than SAF, NZ, ENG, AUS attack; hence what AB, Ken, Root faced recently or what Smith will face in short time, doesn't justify your logic.

Indian bowling in ODI's is pretty poor. They concede 300 3 times out of 5 these days and put pressure on our batting lineup.

 

[jnaveen1980]

As far as One dayers go this is not the only era of flat pitches. Almost all sharjah matches were played on pattas. When Afridi hit 37 ball 100 it was quiet unbelievable to watch. Same with Jayasuriya/Kalu making 42 runs in first 3 overs of the innings in 1996 world cup. Those things were a rarity. Nowadays it is a regularity thanks to T20 approach. Playing sedate cricket for 40 overs and exploding in the last 10 was not something overly difficult. Let us not forget even Tendulkar played in this era and adapted as you could see in his 200 against SA. Tendulkar played mediocre bowling of England/Zimbabwe/NZ/Srilanka in the 90s yet could not make 200 when he was in peak form but made 200 against Steyn and co in this era. In my view flat pitches always existed. Just the mindset has changed.

 

[MMHS]

Indian bowling in ODI's is pretty poor. They concede 300 3 times out of 5 these days and put pressure on our batting lineup.

I think you are talking about AUS tour - it was almost same for Aussies as well. Take the same WACA match 2 years back - IND scored 300+ for 2 or 3 down; just happened to be that Aussies were chasing so they won it with 4 ball left & 5 wickets down.

More or less, these days ODIs are slog feast, which inflates stats massively; but more importantly, it has taken out the bowling advantage. 20 years back, unless you are careful, you can be shot out for 190 in 48 overs - and that's against most attack. Now, it's a case of 352/3 or 302/6 ........

In general, I don't think IND attack is poor, never was in ODI. What it lacked, still lacks is couple of bowlers who can turn a match out of blue; but as a bowling unit it's far better than what it's credited for. But, gradually the ODI match is turning in a way that couple of wickets doesn't change the match - conditions are so much skewed to batting that the gap between top batsmen & average batsmen has reduced significantly. Hence, in 80s or 90s, you have seen almost every clutch innings played by top players - now that range has spread over the batting line-up from 1 to 8, may be even 9.

I still believe it's his pressure handling ability (& fitness, that keeps him cool after 75 overs of a heated contest) that makes him unique - on more bowling friendly conditions, his stats will dent significantly, for his relatively inferior technique & judgement outside off.

 

[jnaveen1980]

I still believe it's his pressure handling ability (& fitness, that keeps him cool after 75 overs of a heated contest) that makes him unique - on more bowling friendly conditions, his stats will dent significantly, for his relatively inferior technique & judgement outside off.

If Virat Kohli has inferior technique. most batsmen would qualify for that From steve waugh to Graeme smith. Copy book cricketers like Sanjay Manjrekar faded into oblivion. Even Viv Richards never had solid defense. Virat has a pretty sound technique. His limited over game and test game can overlap at times. Watch his video with Nasser Hussain about how he has made adjustments to his technique. He kept playing for inswingers as he confessed. Nowadays he is countering with adjustment.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

And what Tendulkar never played on flat pitches?

Tendulkar was more talented, had better technique, but Kohli is mentally tougher.

 

[Cricket World]

No doubt Virat is great irrespective of pitch conditions and quality of bowlers he is facing but we can not ignore the fact that new guy Jadhav's innings proved about inferior quality of bowling and easy batting conditions on offer.