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So the Doosra is illegal but...

octavian

octavian

T20I Debutant
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Jan 29, 2005
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So it has been made clear to the world that anyone who dares bowl a Doosra would have to go get tested in ICC 'approved' testing facilities and ultimately be banned from bowling.

But the carrom ball - for some reason - is kosher. If you are a finger spinner and you want to add some variety to your bowling, you should go learn the carrom ball.

What do you think makes the Doosra so evil? I cant come up with an explanation, but then there are smarter people than me around.
 
Hmm...Let us see...

Doosra has bending of the arm more than 15 degrees..

Carrom ball does the variation with in legal limits..

not hard to decipher why carom ball is kosher ..is it?
 
octavian said:
Proof of the claims? Has the carrom ball been tested?
Click to expand...
Once again, it's in the fingers, straightening will have little influence when the turn actually comes from the flick out of your hands...


 
Realistically, only a South Asian player can bowl Doosra due to their physical gifts. Kinda like how we have much more flexible wrist than on European and African descents. Find a bowler who can has a good run up and fast shoulder rotation and chances are that he could bowl the doosra if he really tried.
 
It is not a very effective delivery once it has lost its novelty factor. Saqi's doosra was easily spotted and played by most batsmen from around 99 onwards.
 
octavian said:
So it has been made clear to the world that anyone who dares bowl a Doosra would have to go get tested in ICC 'approved' testing facilities and ultimately be banned from bowling.

But the carrom ball - for some reason - is kosher. If you are a finger spinner and you want to add some variety to your bowling, you should go learn the carrom ball.

What do you think makes the Doosra so evil? I cant come up with an explanation, but then there are smarter people than me around.
Click to expand...

What rubbish. Under the rules, bending the arm >15 degrees is illegal. Has nothing to do with doosra, teesra, or carrom.
 
Carrom ball is actually quickish leg spin, i dont think it has any chance of being illegal may be off-spin of some bowlers can be illegal but carrom ball wont be an issue
 
Carrom ball is flicked off the fingers. It does not need any bending of the elbow.

It was first bowled by this Australian in the 1950s.

5182B9Z65TL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 
Doosra isn't banned, chucking is.

As long you don't straighten beyond 15 degrees, feel free to bowl the doosra, teesra, chotha, panjwaa, chatta and so on.
 
Translation: So Ajmal is banned, but Ashwin isn't. Why?
 
doosra isn't banned. If you can bowl it within the limits then go right ahead
 
Thivagar said:
[MENTION=133459]slice[/MENTION] 's stockball is the carromball :narine
Click to expand...

No,it is not really the Carom Ball.It has elements of leg-cutter, carom and flipper.
Carom ball has a component of top spin-my delivery has components of backspin.
If you want to give it a fancy name,call it Reverse Off Spin.Or in Urdu "manfee pehla" (negative first)
It is possible to bowl Reverse Doosra but it comes with the same chucking dilemma.Although Reverse Teesra is possible and I somtimes bowl it. [MENTION=137677]Thivagar[/MENTION] ,you said that some one copied my stock ball ? Is there a video ?(apart from youtube)
 
slice said:
No,it is not really the Carom Ball.It has elements of leg-cutter, carom and flipper.
Carom ball has a component of top spin-my delivery has components of backspin.
If you want to give it a fancy name,call it Reverse Off Spin.Or in Urdu "manfee pehla" (negative first)
It is possible to bowl Reverse Doosra but it comes with the same chucking dilemma.Although Reverse Teesra is possible and I somtimes bowl it. [MENTION=137677]Thivagar[/MENTION] ,you said that some one copied my stock ball ? Is there a video ?(apart from youtube)
Click to expand...

I can't remember i forgot, does your "reverse doosra" go straight with a new ball and turn away with slightly older ball ? Does it go flat ? are you using your thumb a bit more than your fingers?
 
Thivagar said:
I can't remember i forgot, does your "reverse doosra" go straight with a new ball and turn away with slightly older ball ? Does it go flat ? are you using your thumb a bit more than your fingers?
Click to expand...

Reverse Pehla turns away from RH,Reverse Doosra turns slightly into the RH with new and old ball but some can keep straight as well.
Although Reverse Teesra is essentailly a flipper.
 
Most of the guys have missed the point. Anyone who bowls a doosra has to go get tested. Case in point, Moeen Ali. He publicly stated that he wont bowl the doosra, for the fears of being banned from bowling.

Please do not make it an Ashwin bashing thread. Herath and Mendis also bowl the Carrom ball. Maybe a couple of other bowlers that I may have missed.

How the carrom ball is bowled is not the question. The question is, how we can assume that it can be assumed that it can be bowled with less than 15 degrees of flex?
 
Aman said:
Once again, it's in the fingers, straightening will have little influence when the turn actually comes from the flick out of your hands...


Click to expand...

These videos are meaningless. I can post Saqi explaining the doosra. It says its all in the wrist.
 
slice said:
Reverse Pehla turns away from RH,Reverse Doosra turns slightly into the RH with new and old ball but some can keep straight as well.
Although Reverse Teesra is essentailly a flipper.
Click to expand...

I know what you are doing. now.
 
octavian said:
No need for such insecurity or sensitivity. Herath bowls a Carrom ball, so does Mendis.
Click to expand...

Only Mendis and Ashwin bowl Carromball. Herath now bowls what Shakib, Jadeja, and Yuvi bowl. He changed it because Carrom ball's flight can't be controlled.
 
Yuvi doesnt bowl anything. just floats them up there. Havent watched Shakib at all so cant comment. I have seen Herath bowl a Carrom ball many times.
 
If you missed the point of the Op, that's not my problem. Simply put its not an Ashwin issue.

Just read this post again until you get it. OP might be too many words for you.
 
octavian said:
Most of the guys have missed the point. Anyone who bowls a doosra has to go get tested. Case in point, Moeen Ali. He publicly stated that he wont bowl the doosra, for the fears of being banned from bowling.

Please do not make it an Ashwin bashing thread. Herath and Mendis also bowl the Carrom ball. Maybe a couple of other bowlers that I may have missed.

How the carrom ball is bowled is not the question. The question is, how we can assume that it can be assumed that it can be bowled with less than 15 degrees of flex?
Click to expand...
I think you've missed reality. If the caroom ball was dodgy, it would have been picked up and tested by now. It may happen in the future with another Ajmal or Sena chucking down everything, but for now, there is no such case.
 
The reality that only exists inside your head.

In the real rational world, people would tell you that mere perceptions aren't facts. I feel to understand the defensiveness of a kiwi fan towards Ashwin. I will state for the record here that I think ajmal chucked his doosra when he got called. Maybe this will calm the indian inside you down a little bit.

The issue is not ajmal vs ashwin. The governing body of a sport shouldn't be deciding to test any bowler who Bowles a particular delivery. Reverse swing would have met with the same fate if the big three existed 15 years ago. The game is too batsman friendly now
 
octavian said:
Yuvi doesnt bowl anything. just floats them up there. Havent watched Shakib at all so cant comment. I have seen Herath bowl a Carrom ball many times.
Click to expand...

Herath doesn't bowl carrom ball anymore, he might toss one of them for sake of it and Yuvraj had a delivery that turns into a right handed batsmen.
 
The umpires call out bowlers with suspect actions only, regardless of which delivery the bowl.

So far, all the chuckers that have been suspended, were even bowling their orthodox offies illegally, so what does it have to do with the doosra? Although its a different matter that no one is able to bowl the doosra without straightening beyond 15 degrees.

Which bowler bowling the carrom ball has a dodgy action that you want tested?

Your point is that the umpires shouldn't assume that they are not chucking. Yes they shouldn't and they are not, but they haven't picked up the chucking with their naked eyes, so they haven't called them out. What's the problem here?

This is essentially the same 'test all bowlers' argument, only repackaged in a different manner.
 
The Carrom ball is generally gentle and unthreatening outside Asia.

Off-spin is back in its rightful place: a defensive art, where if you are lucky in the First three innings of a Test you might take innings figures of:

45-10-120-1

And if you are lucky enough to bowl last, on Day 5, you might take:

30-10-70-3
 
octavian said:
Most of the guys have missed the point. Anyone who bowls a doosra has to go get tested. Case in point, Moeen Ali. He publicly stated that he wont bowl the doosra, for the fears of being banned from bowling.

Please do not make it an Ashwin bashing thread. Herath and Mendis also bowl the Carrom ball. Maybe a couple of other bowlers that I may have missed.

How the carrom ball is bowled is not the question. The question is, how we can assume that it can be assumed that it can be bowled with less than 15 degrees of flex?
Click to expand...

Wrong. Anyone who to the naked eye looks to be throwing has to go get tested. The fact that so many of them have been called while bowling the doosra only just shows that it is difficult to bowl the doosra without chucking.
 
Its started as a part of the monthly Ajmal/Hafeez/doosra/Ashwin/conspiracy whinge, but the OP's reservations have been answered successfully, and I trust he will be satisfied with the comprehensive answers provided by various people.

Nothing to look forward to in this thread anymore.
 
vivek said:
Wrong. Anyone who to the naked eye looks to be throwing has to go get tested. The fact that so many of them have been called while bowling the doosra only just shows that it is difficult to bowl the doosra without chucking.
Click to expand...

No, wrong.

The Big Three is England and Australia as well as India. And England and Australia wanted a crusade against the doosra, which both consider to be cheating.

And the BCCI by all accounts gave them the green light (I'm guessing because the doosra was a potential threat to their batsmen in this new era in which India has already been spun to defeat by England at home and probably will be by New Zealand too.)

Anyone who is stupid enough to bowl a doosra will get himself banned.

(I've been clobbered on this thread before for relating my Saqlain story, because Pakistanis like to believe that he is the only clean doosra bowler. I watched him in the nets at the Gabba in 99-00, when Mushtaq Ahmed was preferred for that match. You could tell which was Saqlain's doosra because it looked to the naked eye like he was chucking it. Many years later I heard Mark Waugh being asked about the doosra. His answer was that when he did well against Saqlain in the mid-90s it was because he initially ignored the ball and just watched for a chuck - if it was a chuck, it was the doosra. But his (Waugh's) hand-eye coordination wasn't so good at the end of his career so he couldn't adapt his stroke after the ball was delivered and he'd been watching the elbow.)
 
Junaids said:
The Carrom ball is generally gentle and unthreatening outside Asia.

Off-spin is back in its rightful place: a defensive art, where if you are lucky in the First three innings of a Test you might take innings figures of:

45-10-120-1

And if you are lucky enough to bowl last, on Day 5, you might take:

30-10-70-3
Click to expand...

:swann thinks differently.
 
Mamoon said:
Its started as a part of the monthly Ajmal/Hafeez/doosra/Ashwin/conspiracy whinge, but the OP's reservations have been answered successfully, and I trust he will be satisfied with the comprehensive answers provided by various people.

Nothing to look forward to in this thread anymore.
Click to expand...

You are assuming stuff as per usual Mamoon. I understand that you have a compulsive need for attention but please try to keep the comments on topic.

The "comprehensive" answers are just sensitive Idians ( real or closet ones) trying to turn this debate into Ajmal vs. Ashwin, no matter how hard i tried to keep this tread from going that route. I even stated I think Ajmal was chucking when he got banned. But question a ball that an Indian bowler is bowling and some people and their cheerleader cant even bear to have a debate.
 
Junaids said:
The Carrom ball is generally gentle and unthreatening outside Asia.

Off-spin is back in its rightful place: a defensive art, where if you are lucky in the First three innings of a Test you might take innings figures of:

45-10-120-1

And if you are lucky enough to bowl last, on Day 5, you might take:

30-10-70-3
Click to expand...

That's the point. The question shouldn't be how gentle or unthreatening a ball is. My issue is with the governing body blatantly telling umpires to call anyone who bowls a doosra. Anyone who thinks that umpires just happened to think all the bowlers who bowled the doosra were chucking it, is stupid.

Moeen Ali's doosra looked just fine. He publicly stated he wont bowl it anymore because he feared he will be called.
 
octavian said:
You are assuming stuff as per usual Mamoon. I understand that you have a compulsive need for attention but please try to keep the comments on topic.

The "comprehensive" answers are just sensitive Idians ( real or closet ones) trying to turn this debate into Ajmal vs. Ashwin, no matter how hard i tried to keep this tread from going that route. I even stated I think Ajmal was chucking when he got banned. But question a ball that an Indian bowler is bowling and some people and their cheerleader cant even bear to have a debate.
Click to expand...

Umm no, swing and a miss again.

Bowlers that have been suspended for chucking - Ajmal, Hafeez, Senanayake to name a few - have had their regular off spinners deemed illegal as well, not just the doosra.

Did Hafeez bowl the doosra? No he didn't.

The umpires are only calling out bowlers with suspicious actions, but most of them happen to be bowling the doosra as well because its a delivery you cannot bowl without chucking it.

I'll ask again, which bowler bowling the carrom bowl you find dubious? Or do you think the umpires should test them for the sake of it even if they don't think their actions are illegal?

Doosra has nothing to do with suspending the bowlers, nor is the doosra banned. Anyone is allowed to bowl any delivery he likes provided he's within the limits.
 
Why are all the bowlers called for chucking are off spinners? Except for Al-Amin from Bangla desh. Hafeez did bowl a straighter one not exactly a doosra but close. One thing.

Secondly, why do you think Moeen Ali had to state publicly that he won't a bowl a doosra?

I found Ajmal's action to dubious. But my naked eye didnt see anything wrong with Hafeez's action or Moeen Ali or even Sunil Narine. All of them got called for chucking. So If we are checking everyone and anyone who bowls a doosra then why not check anyone who bowls a carrom ball or even a googly for that matter and see what we find?
 
Moeen said so because no one after Saqlain has been able to bowl the doosra with a legal action, so its natural that he feels apprehensive about it.

A leg spinner cannot chuck, so that leaves off spinners/orthodox bowlers and those with dubious actions have been called out by the umpires. An arm ball/slider is not the same as the doosra, and all delivers of Hafeez have been found out to be illegal, just like Ajmal, Senanayake and Narine.

Of course Ajmal and Senanayake's chucking was massive ~40, and Hafeez wasn't that bad and his results showed that - most of his deliveries are in the ~25-30 range, considerably lower than Senanayake and Ajmal.

Your naked eye didn't, but the umpires found Hafeez and Narine's action questionable, and therefore called them out.

They did not do so because of the doosra.

All bowlers who are being checked are not under the scanner because they bowl the doosra but rather, all doosra bowlers are under the scanner ONLY because they don't bowl the doosra legally.

If a spinner can bowl the doosra without extending beyond 15 degrees, he won't be questioned but still, he won't fail the Test.

There are no carrom ball spinners around today with dubious actions. In fact, even Narine bowls the carrom ball, so there you go.

Its not about the doosra or the carrom ball, or any other particular delivery - its about straightening beyond 15 degrees and it just so happens that majority of these spinners happen to bowl the doosra as well.
 
Theres the difference in opinion. The last line of your post. Anyone who bowls a doosra will be questioned and tested. That seems to be the protocol. Whether they chuck or not that will be determined by the testing centers.

thats my issue. Check the Carrom ball as well and see what we find. If they dont chuck the test will prove it. Doosra bowlers are being targeted and thats not healthy for the game.
 
Moeen feels apprehensive because of the targeting by the ICC. Which is unfair.

As a cricket fan I want to see innovation on the cricket field. Reverse swing, Doosras, googlies all make the game very interesting to watch. It has become a joke lately with batsmen holding all the aces. We might as replace bowlers with bowling machines.

I wonder which country stands to benefit form a super batsman friendly game.
 
octavian said:
Moeen feels apprehensive because of the targeting by the ICC. Which is unfair.

As a cricket fan I want to see innovation on the cricket field. Reverse swing, Doosras, googlies all make the game very interesting to watch. It has become a joke lately with batsmen holding all the aces. We might as replace bowlers with bowling machines.

I wonder which country stands to benefit form a super batsman friendly game.
Click to expand...

1.If you don't intentionally damage the ball, rehearse swing can be bowled legally.
2.If you don't extend your elbow beyond 15 degrees, you can bowl Doosra legally.

Bowlers not following 1 and 2 mentioned above are the reasons they got punished and will continue to get punished. Its simple as that.
 
Was it a blessing in disguise for Pakistan that the doosra got banned?

The bowling tests technology was changed by ICC and this meant that Saeed Ajmal whose doosra was deemed legitimate previously was now illegal.
If you think about it since we got rid of Ajmal our cricket overall has improved. In Ajmal days, the team heavily relied on Ajmal.
If the ball aint swinging, no worries let’s get Ajmal in the attack.
If the seamers are struggling to bowl Yorkers in the depth overs, no problemo, we got Ajmal.
If batsmen struggle to pose scores of 300 in an ODI, that’s absolutely fine, we just need to score 230 and Ajmal will do the trick.
With Ajmal still playing for Pakistan, we wouldn’t have had the emergence of Yasir Shah (and may be even Shadab Khan). There may have been more Ajmal like bowlers chucking in domestic circuit who may have been in the pipeline to play for Pakistan.

I have tremendous respect for Ajmal but if you think about it, was it not the betterment of Pakistan cricket that Ajmal got banned.
 
Banning Ajmal gave a chance to Yasir Shah who was tremendous for Pak in Tests.

Ajmal was a fading force anyway. He would not have lasted long considering his age and that would have made a dent into Yasir's career.
 
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