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South Africa vs Australia: Which is the better four-man pace attack?

Madplayer

Madplayer

Senior Test Player
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South Africa :

Steyn , Philander, Rabada and Morkel

Australia :

Starc, Hazelwood, Cummins, Pattinson (when fit)

Which is better?
 
Australia will never play with their 4 man pace attack. Pattinson will most probably never play either.

So the answer is South Africa obviously.
 
Ab Fan said:
Australia will never play with their 4 man pace attack. Pattinson will most probably never play either.

So the answer is South Africa obviously.
Click to expand...

If Pattinson is fit, they will surely play him in helpful conditions.
 
Aus has variety - Starc (Left arm fast) , Hazlewood (Mini McGrath), Pattionson (very good 3rd seamer), Cummins (Good pace and can bowl good line and length)

South Africa - Philander (Great in little helpful condition), Steyn & Rabada (quite similar maybe rabada has more bounce), Morkel (very hard to play on bouncy pitches)

I would want African attack but if i don't get i will happily get Aus attack.
 
South Africa easily

You have three bowlers averaging under 23, when did you see that last time?
 
shah_1 said:
South Africa easily

You have three bowlers averaging under 23, when did you see that last time?
Click to expand...

South African pitches mostly are better than Aus Roads so just avg can't be considered.
 
Sam99 said:
South African pitches mostly are better than Aus Roads so just avg can't be considered.
Click to expand...

It's not easily to average so low despite the pitches

Actually Rabbda averaged 22 and Philander 23 in last test series they played in Australia.
 
This SA attack is looking in much better form even though less than 20 overs bowled this series.

Unless India get a some real roads in the next two tests, they will be cannon fodder for these pacers.

SA-AUS

Pak in all conditions.
 
South Africa by a mile. Australian quartet have to first be fit enough to play a test match together and have yet to gain the kind of experience that the Proteas' pace bowlers have.
 
Aus attack easily. If aussies get these c9nditions , they will destroy every batting line up
 
I seriously think people are underestimating Aussie quatret here.

When the chips are down and there are key pressure moments in the tests, the aussie quatret could prove to be ruthless and unfazed by the situation.

The skills of Starc and Hazelwood especially should not be undermined.
 
Madplayer said:
The kiwi in you has spoken :yk dont just oppose anything aussie. Give us reasons :)
Click to expand...
Nah, it's not even close IMO. That SA attack is an ATG attack.

You have one of the GOATs, a young gun who may become a GOAT, a devesating seam bowler and then Morkel who on his day can run through any side in the world.
 
Madplayer said:
I seriously think people are underestimating Aussie quatret here.

When the chips are down and there are key pressure moments in the tests, the aussie quatret could prove to be ruthless and unfazed by the situation.

The skills of Starc and Hazelwood especially should not be undermined.
Click to expand...
I've seen most of Starc and Hazlewood, they're not even close to Steyn and Philander. Most Aussies will tell you the same thing.
 
Aman said:
I've seen most of Starc and Hazlewood, they're not even close to Steyn and Philander. Most Aussies will tell you the same thing.
Click to expand...

Comparing anyone with a peak steyn will be injustice to be honest. But i guess the current steyn is not the same like 5 years back. So given similar conditions, the Aussies can match him and philander.

How long can steyn even last? He is already on his last legs, still bowling like an ATG, not denying it but he will be on a decline in 2 years time. Philander isnt young either, same for Morkel.

Whereas The Aussie attack is young and already deadly. They will only improve from here on.
 
Sam99 said:
Aus has variety - Starc (Left arm fast) , Hazlewood (Mini McGrath), Pattionson (very good 3rd seamer), Cummins (Good pace and can bowl good line and length)

South Africa - Philander (Great in little helpful condition), Steyn & Rabada (quite similar maybe rabada has more bounce), Morkel (very hard to play on bouncy pitches)

I would want African attack but if i don't get i will happily get Aus attack.
Click to expand...

There's nothing similar between Steyn and Rabada.
 
South Africa

Australia will never play with Four man pace attack,,, bcaz of team balance they will prefer M marsh as fourth seamer
 
subbu said:
South Africa

Australia will never play with Four man pace attack,,, bcaz of team balance they will prefer M marsh as fourth seamer
Click to expand...

They will drop lyon if the pitch is green and play a 4th seamer especially if THESE 4 are available.
 
Madplayer said:
They will drop lyon if the pitch is green and play a 4th seamer especially if THESE 4 are available.
Click to expand...

I think Lyon has become pretty much undroppable now.

Plus, it doesn't look like Pattinson will be playing Test cricket in the near future.
 
Aman said:
I've seen most of Starc and Hazlewood, they're not even close to Steyn and Philander. Most Aussies will tell you the same thing.
Click to expand...

Hazlewood> Philander
When on song, Cummins is arguably the best pacer in the world at the moment. It is not as one sided.

And Morkel is a very good bowler but cant run through an attack single handedly. Just 7 fifers in his career.

Rabada is destined to be ATG no doubt.
 
Ab Fan said:
Hazlewood> Philander
Click to expand...

Hazlewood while a consistent line & length bowler that can hold up an end and allow others like Starc to attack doesn't really have the tools to consistently run through sides which Philander has done more often in the past.

Philander - 47 tests, 2 10-fers, 11 5-fers
Hazlewood - 35 tests - 6 5-fers
 
jaf348 said:
Hazlewood while a consistent line & length bowler that can hold up an end and allow others like Starc to attack doesn't really have the tools to consistently run through sides which Philander has done more often in the past.

Philander - 47 tests, 2 10-fers, 11 5-fers
Hazlewood - 35 tests - 6 5-fers
Click to expand...

Philander's 5-fers outside SA?
 
Ohhh its a very difficult question to answer as both pace attacks are pretty impressive. I would have to go with South Africa.
 
Abdullah719 said:
I think Lyon has become pretty much undroppable now.

Plus, it doesn't look like Pattinson will be playing Test cricket in the near future.
Click to expand...

If not lyon, michelle marsh could be sacrificed. If SA can do it, so can Aus in these conditions.

Pattinson might not play soon, but reading all the reports on him,i see him making a comeback this year because CA arent giving up on him.
 
I don't rate Starc as a Test bowler TBH.
Would have been nice to have Abbott there and have Morkel as backup. But still this is a formidable bowling attack.
 
soso_killer said:
I don't rate Starc as a Test bowler TBH.
Would have been nice to have Abbott there and have Morkel as backup. But still this is a formidable bowling attack.
Click to expand...

167 w in 39 matches.
24 w in 3 matches vs sl in asia.
I think its high time you should stop heroin
 
Madplayer said:
Philander's 5-fers outside SA?
Click to expand...

Admittedly he hasn't been as destructive outside of SA even then he has always been miserly (economy rate well under 3 wherever he's been) whereas Hazlewood has been expensive at times eg in the 2015 Ashes and against McCullum in 2016 on a very green top.
 
Smudger said:
167 w in 39 matches.
24 w in 3 matches vs sl in asia.
I think its high time you should stop heroin
Click to expand...

Funny that you failed to mention his average. He wouldn't make our attack. We have someone like Abbott averaging under 25 playing in the County championship.

Problem with Starc is that he bowls ODI lines and can be expensive.
 
Ab Fan said:
Hazlewood> Philander
When on song, Cummins is arguably the best pacer in the world at the moment. It is not as one sided.

And Morkel is a very good bowler but cant run through an attack single handedly. Just 7 fifers in his career.

Rabada is destined to be ATG no doubt.
Click to expand...

On what basis may I ask? Where is the evidence that supports that narrative?
Here are their away records.

Bangladesh: Hazelwood 42, Philander 32.
England: 25 vs 22, Hazelwood going at 3.6 vs Vern 2.57.
India: 32 vs 20
NZ: 34 vs 22
Lanka: 32 vs 76

Hazelwood hasn't played in UAE where Vern averages 23. Likewise Vern hasn't played in the Windies where Josh has an average of 8.

Hazelwood has been comprehensively outbowled away from home. There's no evidence whatsoever that suggests he is currently better than Philander.

Yes Hazelwood is younger, has potential and is yet to peak and what not. But potential is not actual performance. Currently Vern is better. When Hazelwood fulfills that potential (which is no guarantee either), only then will he be better. Potential doesn't make anyone better.
 
Madplayer said:
And why is that?

And who do you think is the best out of the 7 bowlers? ignoring steyn here because he is obviously the best.
Click to expand...

Morkel is the weak link on SA. Australia don't have one. All 6'3+, capable of 145+. Australia's metronome is also better, taller and faster.

Rabada is the best, including Steyn.
 
Madplayer said:
Comparing anyone with a peak steyn will be injustice to be honest. But i guess the current steyn is not the same like 5 years back. So given similar conditions, the Aussies can match him and philander.

How long can steyn even last? He is already on his last legs, still bowling like an ATG, not denying it but he will be on a decline in 2 years time. Philander isnt young either, same for Morkel.

Whereas The Aussie attack is young and already deadly. They will only improve from here on.
Click to expand...

Correct, about this thread isn't addressing the future. On current performance and tangible results suggest that the SA attack is far superior. I didn't even run Steyn's numbers.
Philander has out bowled both Hazelwood and Starc in many countries away from home. I'm not even sure Starc is better than Rabada.

There's no comparison between these attacks at present.
 
South africa comfortably.
Performance wise south africa wins it easily. But there is another aspect to it
3 out of 4 aussie bowlers are made of glass, they get injured very frequently and probably we wont see this aussie lineup much.
Posters inserting names of pakistani bowlers between conversations are deluded. Days of pakistani bowling dominance in TEST MATCHES are long gone.
 
South Africa by some distance. For starters, they are a proven commodity. They also out bowled their Australian counterparts in Australia. Without Steyn.
 
soso_killer said:
On what basis may I ask? Where is the evidence that supports that narrative?
Here are their away records.

Bangladesh: Hazelwood 42, Philander 32.
England: 25 vs 22, Hazelwood going at 3.6 vs Vern 2.57.
India: 32 vs 20
NZ: 34 vs 22
Lanka: 32 vs 76

Hazelwood hasn't played in UAE where Vern averages 23. Likewise Vern hasn't played in the Windies where Josh has an average of 8.

Hazelwood has been comprehensively outbowled away from home. There's no evidence whatsoever that suggests he is currently better than Philander.

Yes Hazelwood is younger, has potential and is yet to peak and what not. But potential is not actual performance. Currently Vern is better. <B>When Hazelwood fulfills that potential (which is no guarantee either), only then will he be better. </B>Potential doesn't make anyone better.
Click to expand...

I think its only a matter of time before he fulfills his potential. He is destined to be an ATG. I think if anyone can outperform Hazlewood in longer run in this era, then its Rabada who is also a certified future ATG. I wasn't comparing their performance till now one on one but mostly talking of how things would go given their form. The comparison is between four man pace attack in coming 1-2 years times.

Steyn, Philander and Morkel won't be there too long while the trio of Australian attack are all young with good number of years left in them. Only Rabada will be there and time can be over for Steyn anytime as he is on his last leg while Philander won't be too long either. Morkel is the weakest of the seven if we leave out Pattinson who won't be playing anytime soon.
 
Last edited:
Madplayer said:
And why is that?

And who do you think is the best out of the 7 bowlers? ignoring steyn here because he is obviously the best.
Click to expand...

2. Philander
3. Hazelwood/Rabada
4. Rabada
5. Starc
....the rest

Abbott has virtually retired but he'd be at three. This is mainly one of the reasons why SA will never be a great side. We simply don't have the economy to pay our fringe players to stay put.
Whereas Australia had a guy like Hussy for decades before he saw international cricket, but I digress.
 
soso_killer said:
2. Philander
3. Hazelwood/Rabada
4. Rabada
5. Starc
....the rest

Abbott has virtually retired but he'd be at three. This is mainly one of the reasons why SA will never be a great side. We simply don't have the economy to pay our fringe players to stay put.
Whereas Australia had a guy like Hussy for decades before he saw international cricket, but I digress.
Click to expand...

You think Abott is better than Hazelwood and Rabada? And you dont rate cummins? Many would say on potential he is the best Aussie fast bowler.
 
Ab Fan said:
I think its only a matter of time before he fulfills his potential. He is destined to be an ATG. I think if anyone can outperform Hazlewood in longer run in this era, then its Rabada who is also a certified future ATG. I wasn't comparing their performance till now one on one but mostly talking of how things would go given their form. The comparison is between four man pace attack in coming 1-2 years times.

Steyn, Philander and Morkel won't be there too long while the trio of Australian attack are all young with good number of years left in them. Only Rabada will be there and time can be over for Steyn anytime as he is on his last leg while Philander won't be too long either. Morkel is the weakest of the seven if we leave out Pattinson who won't be playing anytime soon.
Click to expand...

I get that, Hazelwood could be the next McGrath. But he's not yet there, as a result Philander is the superior bowler until Hazelwood betters that.

This is the thread title: South Africa vs Australia: Which is the better four-man pace attack?
Not anywhere does it talk about the future or potential. As such we're taking a dangerous path by trying to be fortune tellers. Amir, Asif, Bond etc. were all tipped to be ATG for various reasons they never fulfilled that. The future has zero guarantees, history suggests that.
 
soso_killer said:
I get that, Hazelwood could be the next McGrath. But he's not yet there, as a result Philander is the superior bowler until Hazelwood betters that.

This is the thread title: South Africa vs Australia: Which is the better four-man pace attack?
Not anywhere does it talk about the future or potential. As such we're taking a dangerous path by trying to be fortune tellers. Amir, Asif, Bond etc. were all tipped to be ATG for various reasons they never fulfilled that. The future has zero guarantees, history suggests that.
Click to expand...

Bond couldn't fulfilled because of injury issue. It won't be the issue with Hazlewood. It can be with Cummins though.

I dont think any other factor would really come into play to dealt his greatness.
 
Madplayer said:
You think Abott is better than Hazelwood and Rabada? And you dont rate cummins? Many would say on potential he is the best Aussie fast bowler.
Click to expand...

Potential is dangerous territory I don't want to diverge into.
Jimmy Anderson looked rubbish to me, Morkel had the better potential. He had the pace and bounce to thrive in any conditions.
All he had to do was take care of his erratic deliveries. To this very day he is still erratic.
Jimmy goes back to the basics, adds the inswinger into his armour (which is not easy) and becomes a very very good bowler. Jimmy had a higher scope for improvement and he more than fulfilled that. All Morkel had to do was to take care of his lines and lengths and he would have been a faster version of McGrath/Pollock. I really thought he was going to be the next Michael Holding. He didn't come anywhere near to that, not even close. He only needed to be as half as good as those guys in terms of control and failed miserably.

Take Steve Smith for example as well, we all thought he was rubbish and so did the Australians to be fair. Got dropped and went into domestic cricket, his upturn has been nothing short of remarkable. I couldn't have envisaged him batting in the top 4/5, not in a million years.

So who am I to gauge potential? I don't want to be dragged into that TBH, with all due respect.
 
Ab Fan said:
Bond couldn't fulfilled because of injury issue. It won't be the issue with Hazlewood. It can be with Cummins though.

I dont think any other factor would really come into play to dealt his greatness.
Click to expand...

Why would it not be an issue to both Rabada and Hazelwood in this era of jam packed schedules. Even SA Tests will have four Tests against the big three going forward. Anything can happen, nasty blow to the head, slip on a delivery stride etc.
 
Full SA attack is much better than Aus one . Sa attack is capable of taking wicket at all type of pitches while Australian attack would not be able to do well on subcontinent pitches . One attack is of sub 25 average , othering is of above 25.
 
soso_killer said:
Potential is dangerous territory I don't want to diverge into.
Jimmy Anderson looked rubbish to me, Morkel had the better potential. He had the pace and bounce to thrive in any conditions.
All he had to do was take care of his erratic deliveries. To this very day he is still erratic.
Jimmy goes back to the basics, adds the inswinger into his armour (which is not easy) and becomes a very very good bowler. Jimmy had a higher scope for improvement and he more than fulfilled that. All Morkel had to do was to take care of his lines and lengths and he would have been a faster version of McGrath/Pollock. I really thought he was going to be the next Michael Holding. He didn't come anywhere near to that, not even close. He only needed to be as half as good as those guys in terms of control and failed miserably.

Take Steve Smith for example as well, we all thought he was rubbish and so did the Australians to be fair. Got dropped and went into domestic cricket, his upturn has been nothing short of remarkable. I couldn't have envisaged him batting in the top 4/5, not in a million years.

So who am I to gauge potential? I don't want to be dragged into that TBH, with all due respect.
Click to expand...

So as of now cummins is inferior?

And what about the other question? Abott superior to Rababa and Hazelwood?
 
Ab Fan said:
Australia will never play with their 4 man pace attack. Pattinson will most probably never play either.

So the answer is South Africa obviously.
Click to expand...

South Africa, regardless of whether the full Australian attack plays. Player for player, the South African's are better, and more varied. Made this point a long time ago when people were raving about the Aus fab four.
 
Horses for courses. It depends on conditions, on flat wickets in Australia and the subcontinent I'd go for the sheer pace of the Australian attack. In conditions conducive for seam and swing such as SA and England, I'd pick the South African quartet.
 
Starc/Hazlewood/Cummins/Pattinson/Bird vs Steyn/philander/rabada/morkel/ngidi

The title says it all. Which one is most destructive.

Australia clearly has the better spinner in lyon
 
SA's fifth option in Ngidi is much better than Aus's fifth option in Bird. And we don't know if Pattinson will play tests again

If i had to pick a four man attack using players from both teams:

Rabada
Hazlewood
Cummins
Steyn

Philander as backup for Hazlewood and Starc as backup for Cummins or Steyn.
 
Ngidi certainly tips it in SA's favor.

Having someone of that quality coming off the bench is incredible.
 
SA hands down,Even if one or two bowlers down sa still has got the ferocious aura

Aus attack has got the quality and versatility but those lads are made up of glasses,no one can predict how long they will play together
 
Australian attack. Lungi is an excellent prospect. Having said that, I believe India's rubbish batting made him look better than what he actually is. We'll see how good he really is when he'll bowl against the Australian batters later this year.
 
Don't want to jump on the Ngidi train, but he has way better control than Morkel. He can sustain pressure. Baring injuries, he should average 26/27 at the very least.
I'd be tempted to drop Morne for Steyn against Australia. Ngidi has the pace and bounce of Morkel with better control too.
 
It's a slow wicket, speed through the air matters a lot. The Australian fast bowlers will always be more successful in such conditions.
 
As said, Aus has better attack and not only that, they also have better batting lineup.

Smith and Warner are at peak while Amla has past it.
 
South Africa's bowling attack will compete if only they replace Morkel with either Steyn or Ngidi.
 
Mercurial said:
South Africa's bowling attack will compete if only they replace Morkel with either Steyn or Ngidi.
Click to expand...

Doubt it. Morkel is retiring and Saffers are softies generally. I will be surprised if they drop him.
 
Averages for the series (approx):

SA:
Rabada - 19.2
Morkel - 19.6
Philander - 16.8
Ngidi - 15
Maharaj - 33.6

Australia:
Cummins - 21.4
Starc - 34.4
Hazlewood - 39.2
Marsh - 42.2
Lyon - 42.6

Answer seems pretty clear now even if we account for quality of batsmen they were bowling to.
 
Princejain191 said:
Averages for the series (approx):

SA:
Rabada - 19.2
Morkel - 19.6
Philander - 16.8
Ngidi - 15
Maharaj - 33.6

Australia:
Cummins - 21.4
Starc - 34.4
Hazlewood - 39.2
Marsh - 42.2
Lyon - 42.6

Answer seems pretty clear now even if we account for quality of batsmen they were bowling to.
Click to expand...

Lyon out bowled by Maharaj :)))
 
Princejain191 said:
Averages for the series (approx):

SA:
Rabada - 19.2
Morkel - 19.6
Philander - 16.8
Ngidi - 15
Maharaj - 33.6

Australia:
Cummins - 21.4
Starc - 34.4
Hazlewood - 39.2
Marsh - 42.2
Lyon - 42.6

Answer seems pretty clear now even if we account for quality of batsmen they were bowling to.
Click to expand...

What's surprising is that Australia's best isn't even able to be in the top 4 of South Africa. There's domination and then there's next level domination and then there's this.
 
Settled.
Not a single Aussie makes our attack. All our pacers averaged under 20.
Then we have a trundler like Steyn on the bench, Australia on the other hand have an ATG like Sayers. :facepalm:
 
soso_killer said:
Settled.
Not a single Aussie makes our attack. All our pacers averaged under 20.
Then we have a trundler like Steyn on the bench, Australia on the other hand have an ATG like Sayers. :facepalm:
Click to expand...

I agree that SA has a better attack. But there is no way i will take Morkel over Cummins regardless of average. Remember Morkel was bowling to a weaker batting line up

Rabada
Philander
Cummins
Maharaj

if Steyn is fit, then Cummins is out.
 
hk031992 said:
I agree that SA has a better attack. But there is no way i will take Morkel over Cummins regardless of average. Remember Morkel was bowling to a weaker batting line up

Rabada
Philander
Cummins
Maharaj

if Steyn is fit, then Cummins is out.
Click to expand...

Morkel destroyed Smith and co. in Cape Town.
And then we have the impressive Ngidi.
Anything Cummins can do, Rabada can do it better. It's about variety in attack. He doesn't make the side unfortunately.
 
soso_killer said:
Morkel destroyed Smith and co. in Cape Town.
And then we have the impressive Ngidi.
Anything Cummins can do, Rabada can do it better. It's about variety in attack. He doesn't make the side unfortunately.
Click to expand...
I'd take Cummins over Morkel. Morkel would have been way better if he was just a bit more aggressive.

And he had a constant problem of getting wickets off no-balls, which has relieved the pressure off our opponents many times over the years.

Also hasn't taken a 10-fer. One could argue that he had to compete with Steyn and Philander, but he was playing long before Philander, and yet Philander has done it.

He's been a good servant, and I understand the emotion of him leaving the game might cloud a few judgements, but I think he could have been a lot more given his pace and bounce.
 
Jo_Don said:
I'd take Cummins over Morkel. Morkel would have been way better if he was just a bit more aggressive.

And he had a constant problem of getting wickets off no-balls, which has relieved the pressure off our opponents many times over the years.

Also hasn't taken a 10-fer. One could argue that he had to compete with Steyn and Philander, but he was playing long before Philander, and yet Philander has done it.

He's been a good servant, and I understand the emotion of him leaving the game might cloud a few judgements, but I think he could have been a lot more given his pace and bounce.
Click to expand...

Lol, yeah I know. Was having a laugh, comprehensively out bowled the Aussies I'm milking the moment.

Good to see you mate, been a while.
 
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