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Stats Attack - Pakistan's greatest batsman ever in Test?

AnasK

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The title says it all. When it comes to choosing one Pakistani batsman in Tests, it always is a tough thing to do. There have been a lot of good batmen till date from Pakistan but none of them can be put equal to the Greats produced by other Cricketing Nations. Although we have produced good batsmen but at maximum they usually are tier two or three greats.

Picking the best bowler from Pakistan is quite easy because we've produced really exceptional bowlers over the years. But picking best batsman is not that easy. I cannot judge someone's batting technique, batting style, limitations nor I have watched former players. The stats are the way to do it. Therefore, I am going to do a method of my own and from which I believe can tell us which Pakistani batsman has been the best in Tests or atleast has high probability of telling us correctly.

First of all, one thing which I believe and on which this whole thing is based on is that the all top players have great home records, their main challenge is always overseas tours and their worth is known in those tours. So my work is 90% based on the overseas records against Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand and West Indies.

Now, let me explain a few things I am going to make tables for different stats that I think can help us decide the best and then I will be awarding them points depending on how they fare and it would be RELATIVE POINTS on how every player on table fares. In case of less amount of data available in order to award points, the relative points will given by dividing the table in suitable parts. There are some other terms that would be explained later.

So, starting off I needed top batsmen who have performed well overseas; simple result which arguably shows the Top Pakistani Test batsmen ever even without the stats. But here is the first table:

GOAT_ (1).jpg

So there we have 6 big names from Pakistan in terms of batting. I hope there are no other batsmen people are thinking of. We'll be going ahead with these 6 names.

The main reason for selecting batsmen because of their away records is to find out which player played better in tough conditions. This sort of shows which batsman had a good technique, temperament, skill to score against good fast bowlers in their backyard in tough conditions. Even if they were technically flawed, they knew how to play fast bowling in those conditions.

Similar table which only focuses of runs made in 1st & 2nd match innings. Showing how they fared on fresh pitch with grass on. This also tests their temperament and focus being batting in first innings.

GOAT_ (2).jpg

Now it is narrowed down to only 1st innings; either its a good track to bat or its a bowling paradise and you have been forced to bat.

GOAT_ (3).jpg

Now lets consider, the track is a green one. Lots of grass. Or maybe it is overcast conditions out there. Or maybe both. And the opposing captain has sent you in...

GOAT_ (4).jpg

Now we should move towards these players' winning contributions. Which of these batsmen have set it up for the team in 1st innings and contributed towards the victory...

GOAT_ (5).jpg

Now lets consider the same green pitch scenario. But this time we want to see which players have contributed towards victory despite all odds. Here I would like to mention that the sample size was very less in this case and so here I did my best not to give anyone advantage or big disadvantage.

GOAT_ (6).jpg

Chasing a target in the 4th innings or playing for a draw in always tough away from home...

GOAT_ (7).jpg

Now lets look deeper into their performance against pace bowlers and spin bowlers. The pace bowlers have always been very tough from overseas countries and therefore it is important to play them better than you have done at home. For this there is a weighted average which is 70% of pace bowlers and 30% of spin bowlers.

GOAT_ (8).jpg

Now lets see their milestone reaching rate. That in after how many innings they score a 50, 100. And then how many of those 50s are converted to 100s. Here I am using Inverse Conversion Rate, the reason for using inverse is that the simple conversion rate needs to be high to be said good while other two rates need to be low to be said as good. So this brings all three to same page. If you don't understand no worries, just trust me I am an Engineering student :bm
Here weighted rate has 33% of all three rates here.

GOAT_ (10).jpg

Now the last table. I think we should now come back to Pakistan. Shows the winning contributions of the batsmen in home and neutral Test matches.

GOAT_ (9).jpg

So now after all these aspects seen, we are going to the result by just calculating points in each table and according to my statistics we get him as Pakistan's greatest batsman in Tests.

GOAT_ (11).jpg

Hopefully, everyone will appreciate my hard work and effort and give their thoughts. Constructive criticism is always welcomed. Do discuss it. Who according to you is the greatest Pakistani batsman?
 
Great work man.
Imo it is:
Javed
YK
Moyo
Inzi
Abbas
Malik
Hanif
Anwar
Azhar
Misbah

that's the Top 10.
 
Javes>Inzy>moyo=Younis
People really underrate Inzy on this forum, seeing the type of attack and pitches he played. Even in 2005 he was injured on flat track and didn't played , only played on Perth.
 
I watch javad,inzamam,yousef I will never say younis is batter then them he's a great batsman but after them not before
 
unfair to take out SL & Ind. not easy places to visit.
or they are taking out because Miandad doesn't have any 100 in both of these countries?
by excluding these 2 countries, you are taking away 6 100s from Younis khan.
where miandad unable to score 1 century in 16 matches(both in SL & Ind). and have avg of 15 in SL
 
The title says it all. When it comes to choosing one Pakistani batsman in Tests, it always is a tough thing to do. There have been a lot of good batmen till date from Pakistan but none of them can be put equal to the Greats produced by other Cricketing Nations. Although we have produced good batsmen but at maximum they usually are tier two or three greats.

Picking the best bowler from Pakistan is quite easy because we've produced really exceptional bowlers over the years. But picking best batsman is not that easy. I cannot judge someone's batting technique, batting style, limitations nor I have watched former players. The stats are the way to do it. Therefore, I am going to do a method of my own and from which I believe can tell us which Pakistani batsman has been the best in Tests or atleast has high probability of telling us correctly.

First of all, one thing which I believe and on which this whole thing is based on is that the all top players have great home records, their main challenge is always overseas tours and their worth is known in those tours. So my work is 90% based on the overseas records against Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand and West Indies.

Now, let me explain a few things I am going to make tables for different stats that I think can help us decide the best and then I will be awarding them points depending on how they fare and it would be RELATIVE POINTS on how every player on table fares. In case of less amount of data available in order to award points, the relative points will given by dividing the table in suitable parts. There are some other terms that would be explained later.

So, starting off I needed top batsmen who have performed well overseas; simple result which arguably shows the Top Pakistani Test batsmen ever even without the stats. But here is the first table:

View attachment 71902

So there we have 6 big names from Pakistan in terms of batting. I hope there are no other batsmen people are thinking of. We'll be going ahead with these 6 names.

The main reason for selecting batsmen because of their away records is to find out which player played better in tough conditions. This sort of shows which batsman had a good technique, temperament, skill to score against good fast bowlers in their backyard in tough conditions. Even if they were technically flawed, they knew how to play fast bowling in those conditions.

Similar table which only focuses of runs made in 1st & 2nd match innings. Showing how they fared on fresh pitch with grass on. This also tests their temperament and focus being batting in first innings.

View attachment 71903

Now it is narrowed down to only 1st innings; either its a good track to bat or its a bowling paradise and you have been forced to bat.

View attachment 71904

Now lets consider, the track is a green one. Lots of grass. Or maybe it is overcast conditions out there. Or maybe both. And the opposing captain has sent you in...

View attachment 71905

Now we should move towards these players' winning contributions. Which of these batsmen have set it up for the team in 1st innings and contributed towards the victory...

View attachment 71906

Now lets consider the same green pitch scenario. But this time we want to see which players have contributed towards victory despite all odds. Here I would like to mention that the sample size was very less in this case and so here I did my best not to give anyone advantage or big disadvantage.

View attachment 71908

Chasing a target in the 4th innings or playing for a draw in always tough away from home...

View attachment 71909

Now lets look deeper into their performance against pace bowlers and spin bowlers. The pace bowlers have always been very tough from overseas countries and therefore it is important to play them better than you have done at home. For this there is a weighted average which is 70% of pace bowlers and 30% of spin bowlers.

View attachment 71910

Now lets see their milestone reaching rate. That in after how many innings they score a 50, 100. And then how many of those 50s are converted to 100s. Here I am using Inverse Conversion Rate, the reason for using inverse is that the simple conversion rate needs to be high to be said good while other two rates need to be low to be said as good. So this brings all three to same page. If you don't understand no worries, just trust me I am an Engineering student :bm
Here weighted rate has 33% of all three rates here.

View attachment 71911

Now the last table. I think we should now come back to Pakistan. Shows the winning contributions of the batsmen in home and neutral Test matches.

View attachment 71912

So now after all these aspects seen, we are going to the result by just calculating points in each table and according to my statistics we get him as Pakistan's greatest batsman in Tests.

View attachment 71913

Hopefully, everyone will appreciate my hard work and effort and give their thoughts. Constructive criticism is always welcomed. Do discuss it. Who according to you is the greatest Pakistani batsman?
Good work but I would add Saeed Anwar to the equation too. Any reason why he has been left out?
 
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Very detailed effort by OP here. To be honest, if you go outside of PP and ask neutrals, majority will simply go with Miandad as the best batsman and also as an ATG batsman.
 
Top post man,YK has a lot of say in the wins that occur for Pakistan though but yes Javed defn is better and YK second.
 
Top thread man.

Another filter you might add is their performance against the best team of their era, home and away. I always like to guage the quality and mental toughness of batsmen using it.
 
Good work.

Although one would like to know more about how those relative points are calculated. Nonetheless, the results are fairly satisfactory.
 
Well researched.Javed is undoubtedly Pakistan's greatest test batsman.

Great work man.
Imo it is:
Javed
YK
Moyo
Inzi
Abbas
Malik
Hanif
Anwar
Azhar
Misbah

that's the Top 10.

Really good work and seems you put a lot of hard work in to it.

Very detailed effort by OP here. To be honest, if you go outside of PP and ask neutrals, majority will simply go with Miandad as the best batsman and also as an ATG batsman.

This is the type of stats I want to see. Good work.

Top post man,YK has a lot of say in the wins that occur for Pakistan though but yes Javed defn is better and YK second.

Top thread man.

Another filter you might add is their performance against the best team of their era, home and away. I always like to guage the quality and mental toughness of batsmen using it.

Thanks everyone for the appreciation.
 
Not interested in stats. Younis is a decent batsman at best, who is excellent on flat wickets and rubbish on green wickets, who has never been good enough against lateral movement, be it swing or seam.
 
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unfair to take out SL & Ind. not easy places to visit.
or they are taking out because Miandad doesn't have any 100 in both of these countries?
by excluding these 2 countries, you are taking away 6 100s from Younis khan.
where miandad unable to score 1 century in 16 matches(both in SL & Ind). and have avg of 15 in SL

Yeah you're right but I wanted to go for the overseas tour where it is tough to play fast bowlers, plus Pakistani batsmen are decent players are decent players of spin bowling. It's against the top fast bowling especially in away matches we've failed most. So I took that into account.
 
This is straight up POTW worthy.

Incredible effort. :14:

The list turned out to be a reasonable one and Javed Miandad deserves that top spot.
 
Yeah you're right but I wanted to go for the overseas tour where it is tough to play fast bowlers, plus Pakistani batsmen are decent players are decent players of spin bowling. It's against the top fast bowling especially in away matches we've failed most. So I took that into account.

last i checked, Ind & SL are NOT part of Pakistan.
when title says "Pakistan's greatest " then when weare touring SL & India, our palyers are representing Pakistan there too.
even though our players are good at playing spin, but Miandad scored to fail on hundred in India ( Pakistan's arch rival) & SL (who were minnows at that time)
when you exclude these 2 countries, you are taking out 2 best knocks of YK (267 vs India & 171* against SL recently) away from him which were both winning one.
 
Good work.

Although one would like to know more about how those relative points are calculated. Nonetheless, the results are fairly satisfactory.

I have calculated them on how everyone on the table fared. It's a deviation from the mean. In other words, every single player's performance is judged by taking other players' performances into account as well. So points are relative to all other players on the table.
 
last i checked, Ind & SL are NOT part of Pakistan.
when title says "Pakistan's greatest " then when weare touring SL & India, our palyers are representing Pakistan there too.
even though our players are good at playing spin, but Miandad scored to fail on hundred in India ( Pakistan's arch rival) & SL (who were minnows at that time)
when you exclude these 2 countries, you are taking out 2 best knocks of YK (267 vs India & 171* against SL recently) away from him which were both winning one.

I again tell you that for me, this was the best way to tell who is the better batsman. These stats tell you Miandad was better player of pace in those conditions. And it is what I wanted because for me player who has performed in those conditions is far better than others because these batters have pretty decent record at home or in Asia.

But for you I went into stats again, this time including Sri Lanka and India. I can tell you Miandad still averages more than Younis despite adding 6 more centuries to his tally.
 
Not interested in stats. Younis is a decent batsman at best, who is excellent on flat wickets and rubbish on green wickets, who has never been good enough against lateral movement, be it swing or seem.

Yeah you're right, but still you have stats to prove this as well and tables have established that. And it shows Younis despite being #2 above, averages poorly against pace bowlers in AUS/ENG/SA/WI/NZL. Miandad, Yousuf and Inzamam are far superior to Younis when playing against pace bowlers.
 
I again tell you that for me, this was the best way to tell who is the better batsman. These stats tell you Miandad was better player of pace in those conditions. And it is what I wanted because for me player who has performed in those conditions is far better than others because these batters have pretty decent record at home or in Asia.

But for you I went into stats again, this time including Sri Lanka and India. I can tell you Miandad still averages more than Younis despite adding 6 more centuries to his tally.

That's fair enough then
Otherwise ALL Pakistani batsmen had their weakness one way or another, just like Miandad's poor avg in WI n Aus ( when compared to his over all career avg)
 
I very interesting analysis. It has to be between Miandad and Younis no doubt. But believing that performance in away matches in Asia do not matter smells too much like residual colonial inferiority complex to me. Playing away in India is the biggest stage possible for a Pakistani player. And this stage Younis bestrode like few others. He was a virtual Hammer of God in 2005 and 2006. Averages 88 in India vs Miandad's 67.
 
Not interested in stats. Younis is a decent batsman at best, who is excellent on flat wickets and rubbish on green wickets, who has never been good enough against lateral movement, be it swing or seem.

You mean you are not interested in facts. Written down on paper. Can't really argue on that basis unfortunately.
 
That's fair enough then
Otherwise ALL Pakistani batsmen had their weakness one way or another, just like Miandad's poor avg in WI n Aus ( when compared to his over all career avg)

It's the Pakistan's Best Test Batsman Playing Outside of Asia contest,

Also known as the Colonial Inferiority Complex standard
 
You mean you are not interested in facts. Written down on paper. Can't really argue on that basis unfortunately.

Think these 'facts' are in agreement with me. Younis is poor overseas against pace bowling, which becomes more evident when the conditions are tough.
 
[MENTION=137475]AnasK[/MENTION]

Superb work MashaAllah. Hardwork put into it.


Does this include Overseas wins at non neutral venues aswell ?
 

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[MENTION=137475]AnasK[/MENTION] why have you left Saeed Anwar out?
 
[MENTION=137475]AnasK[/MENTION] why have you left Saeed Anwar out?

I believe it's because he averaged only a moderate 45 in test cricket. ODIs were his stronger suit.
 
Good work but I would add Saeed Anwar to the equation too. Any reason why he has been left out?

[MENTION=137475]AnasK[/MENTION] why have you left Saeed Anwar out?

I believe it's because he averaged only a moderate 45 in test cricket. ODIs were his stronger suit.

He was a top batter but the criterion through I put everyone else, his name didn't came up. Major thing he had less number of innings played outside Asia which justifies his less numbers of scored.
 
Thanks man.

No. It only includes home and neutral wins.


So if we consider another criteria of these players overall batting average in Tests won by Pakistan than who tops that chart ?

Those points should be added to your final chart.
 
So if we consider another criteria of these players overall batting average in Tests won by Pakistan than who tops that chart ?

Those points should be added to your final chart.

Inzamam ul Haq.

Great post brother ... 100% agree with your list ... Can you make same list for India

Sure. But I think Sachin Tendulkar will easily top the chart.
 
I believe it's because he averaged only a moderate 45 in test cricket. ODIs were his stronger suit.

That's not true at all. He was better in Tests by far, with a great record everywhere. It's just that he didn't play enough matches and is remembered mostly for bashing ODI hundreds against Indian and Sri Lankan bowlers and of course, the iconic 194. In Australia, South Africa and New Zealand, he was a walking wicket in ODIs. Top player in World Cups though.
 
That's not true at all. He was better in Tests by far, with a great record everywhere. It's just that he didn't play enough matches and is remembered mostly for bashing ODI hundreds against Indian and Sri Lankan bowlers and of course, the iconic 194. In Australia, South Africa and New Zealand, he was a walking wicket in ODIs. Top player in World Cups though.

Agreed. Very underrated Test batsman.
 
To me Jawed>Inzi>YK>MY in tests for Pakistan MY had one outstanding year and was a treat to watch him bat but he was not as good as the other 3. Saleem Malik, Saeed Anwar and a few others follow after these 4.
 
Its hard to put someone ahead of javed.

talent wise and range of shots it has to be Inzamam. But Miandad had the grit and determination , he simply hated to loose.
 
IMO anyone would say it's Javed Miandad. Except the die hard YK fans (not sure how they exist!).

It is:

1. Javed
2. Inzamam
3. Moyo
4. YK (excellent FTB, poor whenever there's pace, bounce, swing/seam).
 
The title says it all. When it comes to choosing one Pakistani batsman in Tests, it always is a tough thing to do. There have been a lot of good batmen till date from Pakistan but none of them can be put equal to the Greats produced by other Cricketing Nations. Although we have produced good batsmen but at maximum they usually are tier two or three greats.

Picking the best bowler from Pakistan is quite easy because we've produced really exceptional bowlers over the years. But picking best batsman is not that easy. I cannot judge someone's batting technique, batting style, limitations nor I have watched former players. The stats are the way to do it. Therefore, I am going to do a method of my own and from which I believe can tell us which Pakistani batsman has been the best in Tests or atleast has high probability of telling us correctly.

First of all, one thing which I believe and on which this whole thing is based on is that the all top players have great home records, their main challenge is always overseas tours and their worth is known in those tours. So my work is 90% based on the overseas records against Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand and West Indies.

Now, let me explain a few things I am going to make tables for different stats that I think can help us decide the best and then I will be awarding them points depending on how they fare and it would be RELATIVE POINTS on how every player on table fares. In case of less amount of data available in order to award points, the relative points will given by dividing the table in suitable parts. There are some other terms that would be explained later.

So, starting off I needed top batsmen who have performed well overseas; simple result which arguably shows the Top Pakistani Test batsmen ever even without the stats. But here is the first table:

View attachment 71902

So there we have 6 big names from Pakistan in terms of batting. I hope there are no other batsmen people are thinking of. We'll be going ahead with these 6 names.

The main reason for selecting batsmen because of their away records is to find out which player played better in tough conditions. This sort of shows which batsman had a good technique, temperament, skill to score against good fast bowlers in their backyard in tough conditions. Even if they were technically flawed, they knew how to play fast bowling in those conditions.

Similar table which only focuses of runs made in 1st & 2nd match innings. Showing how they fared on fresh pitch with grass on. This also tests their temperament and focus being batting in first innings.

View attachment 71903

Now it is narrowed down to only 1st innings; either its a good track to bat or its a bowling paradise and you have been forced to bat.

View attachment 71904

Now lets consider, the track is a green one. Lots of grass. Or maybe it is overcast conditions out there. Or maybe both. And the opposing captain has sent you in...

View attachment 71905

Now we should move towards these players' winning contributions. Which of these batsmen have set it up for the team in 1st innings and contributed towards the victory...

View attachment 71906

Now lets consider the same green pitch scenario. But this time we want to see which players have contributed towards victory despite all odds. Here I would like to mention that the sample size was very less in this case and so here I did my best not to give anyone advantage or big disadvantage.

View attachment 71908

Chasing a target in the 4th innings or playing for a draw in always tough away from home...

View attachment 71909

Now lets look deeper into their performance against pace bowlers and spin bowlers. The pace bowlers have always been very tough from overseas countries and therefore it is important to play them better than you have done at home. For this there is a weighted average which is 70% of pace bowlers and 30% of spin bowlers.

View attachment 71910

Now lets see their milestone reaching rate. That in after how many innings they score a 50, 100. And then how many of those 50s are converted to 100s. Here I am using Inverse Conversion Rate, the reason for using inverse is that the simple conversion rate needs to be high to be said good while other two rates need to be low to be said as good. So this brings all three to same page. If you don't understand no worries, just trust me I am an Engineering student :bm
Here weighted rate has 33% of all three rates here.

View attachment 71911

Now the last table. I think we should now come back to Pakistan. Shows the winning contributions of the batsmen in home and neutral Test matches.

View attachment 71912

So now after all these aspects seen, we are going to the result by just calculating points in each table and according to my statistics we get him as Pakistan's greatest batsman in Tests.

View attachment 71913

Hopefully, everyone will appreciate my hard work and effort and give their thoughts. Constructive criticism is always welcomed. Do discuss it. Who according to you is the greatest Pakistani batsman?


I would like you to add points to your final score sheet so that we can finish this argument. Than I ll be nominating this work for POTW.

Only this thing was missing
 

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[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION]

I think this is enough now. I will not be able to make any further changes now. Despite having unbelievable record in victories, Younis still falls short. If he had better ability to play pace bowlers outside Asia, he would have been on top comfortably with some handsome lead.

Javed Miandad is truly the greatest Test batman from Pakistan. Plus he got those runs playing against the great bowlers of 70s and 80s.

Both of the batsmen deserve to be on top.

10a.jpg

11.jpg
 
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