The Asian white-ball hierarchy

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Lol how many times has india qualified. Hahah
They are still at their 5th semi final .

Pakistan is better team than india historically in t20is let alone Afghanistan.

Extra funny thing
Pakistan had been winning Asian games cricket golds, but as soon as Asian games got recognition of official T20 status,
Pakistan failed to get even bronze in either men or women's cricket
Afghans got the silver and Bangla bhais got the bronze
In Asia Cups, in the last 5 tournaments: SL has 2 wins Pakistan has none

 

[followed]

4 times including 1 Final in the last 5 T20 World Cups, while 2 Finals and 2 semis in the last 4 World Cups.
Before you harp about choking.. The thread is about comparing Asian nations' performance.

History ka danda baithe bajaate raho till even UAE leaves you behind

Lol you can't just pick and choose the stats.
Now I will choose the stats since 2010 T20 world cup Pakistan has made semi finals 4 times and finals one time.

2022 wasn't ancient history. Pakistan was the finalist in the edition and semi finalist in 2021 edition.

 

[pakistani pride]

indians on this thread hyped up Afg to be second best Asian team based on cwc and t20 wc. thats incredibly low sample data to reach the conclusion. Afg finished below Pak in cwc. despite lacklustre performances by Pak , still finished above Afg due to better RR and equal points. they could have played better in final match against Eng if it was nt dead rubber since NRR equation was out of question. If Umpire had given LBW against shamsi , Pak almost won against SA too which eventually cost us semi spot. When push came to shove , Pakistan was on course to chase 400 runs against NZ a team against which afg folded for 139. Afg so far has only won one odi game against Pakistan in Chennai. before that pak beat them 3-0 in Lanka . Afg is no way near competitive in test cricket. even ireland beat them in UAE. Today’s semi final proved that they are minnows and conditions helped them get couple of fluke wins over NZ and AUS to qualify for semis. Pak never played such bad semi final or final in t20 ever. all the knockouts ever played by Pakistan in t20s have been competitive . getting bundled out for 56 in semi final in no excuse when you chose to bat first.

Well said bro!

 

[mominsaigol]

You are making alot of excuses when the reality is that Afghanistan has only beaten a full-strength Pakistan once in any format. If I need 50 excuses/modifiers to justify one point then it probably means that point isn't as strong as I think it is.

You're right. No one believed Pakistan was No.1, and honestly they weren't. There were alot of B/C teams that Pakistan beat. But they were still a better and higher ranked team than Afghanistan going into the WC that had been winning matches more consistently than they had in years.

Also, the idea that England were awful because they had a bad WC is quite laughable. Again, the quality of players that England has are players that Afghanistan can only dream of having. In limited-overs cricket, confidence and momentum are a big thing. England in 2019 gave Afghanistan the thrashing of a lifetime when Morgan smashed Rashid alone for 10 sixes. The England squad from 2023 had many of the same players that won the WC 4 years prior. But England were overconfident and undercooked. But their performance in that WC was not a true reflection of how good they are. Side note: England were absolutely thrashed by Sri Lanka too in the same WC. Are we going to now pretend that Sri Lanka are better than England too?

Any team can win one match. And consistently bottling and not bottling is what differentiates the best from the rest. If you can't handle pressure in this sport, you will lose most matches. Which is exactly why Afghanistan, despite their raw talent and incredible rise have constantly gotten reality checks from bigger teams. Be it Pakistan, Australia or India.

You are making alot of excuses when the reality is that Afghanistan has only beaten a full-strength Pakistan once in any format. If I need 50 excuses/modifiers to justify one point then it probably means that point isn't as strong as I think it is.

Theirs a difference between an excuse and arguing as to why a particular event happened. Afghanistan beating Pakistan is a recent event, the recent events include Pakistan losing to Afghanistan the last time they played and now getting out performed by them in this wc. Past events where you're going back to 2014 era isn't relevant.

You're right. No one believed Pakistan was No.1, and honestly they weren't. There were alot of B/C teams that Pakistan beat. But they were still a better and higher ranked team than Afghanistan going into the WC that had been winning matches more consistently than they had in years.

Again whats the relevance? Why is the past relevant? Isn't this am excuse? Afghanistan beat a full strength asia and A full strength pakistan, they beat 2023 England and nearly beat 2023 Australia while Pakistan have been getting butchered by all these teams left and right. So why does going in no 1 ranked pre WC have any relevance to 2024?

Need I remind you the original premise of you're argument Is Pakistan is STILL KEY WORD STILL THE 2ND BEST TEAM IN ASIA. So why are you arguing about the past? Aren't these coming up with 50+ narratives?

Also, the idea that England were awful because they had a bad WC is quite laughable. Again, the quality of players that England has are players that Afghanistan can only dream of having. In limited-overs cricket, confidence and momentum are a big thing. England in 2019 gave Afghanistan the thrashing of a lifetime when Morgan smashed Rashid alone for 10 sixes. The England squad from 2023 had many of the same players that won the WC 4 years prior. But England were overconfident and undercooked. But their performance in that WC was not a true reflection of how good they are. Side note: England were absolutely thrashed by Sri Lanka too in the same WC. Are we going to now pretend that Sri Lanka are better than England too?

Again going by player names and reputation is completely irrelevant. 2023 wc England was twrrible based of my previous reasoning. And yes 2023 wc sri lanka > England by miles. 2023 sri lanka even beat Pakistan. Pakistan came close to sri lanka in Asia cup and beat Sri Lanka in world cup because rizwan and Abdullah kicked off in both games, Rizwan who surprisingly clicked both times and Abdullah was a brand newbie who scored 52 in asia cup and 111 against them in wc. Without these 2 Sri lanka would have washed Pakistan left and right. The rest of the baggage was dead.

The only difference between Pakistan vs Sri lanka and England vs Sri lanka is that the only good inform batter they had which was Malan he didn't kick off in that game while Pakistan's 2 batters kicked off with rizwan playing a very very outlier innings, since he usually never gets such an absurdly high score in Odi's.

Any team can win one match. And consistently bottling and not bottling is what differentiates the best from the rest. If you can't handle pressure in this sport, you will lose most matches. Which is exactly why Afghanistan, despite their raw talent and incredible rise have constantly gotten reality checks from bigger teams. Be it Pakistan, Australia or India.

It aint one match, it's consistent losses to C team Nz, one loss to Afghanistan, utter thrashing by England, one loss to USA, one loss to India, Barely scraping by Canada and if you wish to go back to 2023, its losses to literally every team besides Nedtherlands amd Bangladesh, sri lanka required out of skin batting and Abdullah shafiq aka a newbie came through while NZ once again required a once in a generational innings from fakhar to get through.

Neither of Abdullah, Rizwan or Fakhar are kicking off qith the likes of mujeeb, Noor, Rashid, Farooqi bowling to them, Fakhar can bully sodhi and rizwan is surprisingly good against Sri Lanka but it won't happen against other opposition

 

[mominsaigol]

Afghans are lucky that they don't have to face the Azam and IFFI storm.

Right cause zimbabwe and USA was trembling in their boots when Iffi walked forward in that super over.

 

[mominsaigol]

You are making alot of excuses when the reality is that Afghanistan has only beaten a full-strength Pakistan once in any format. If I need 50 excuses/modifiers to justify one point then it probably means that point isn't as strong as I think it is.

Theirs a difference between an excuse and arguing as to why a particular event happened. Afghanistan beating Pakistan is a recent event, the recent events include Pakistan losing to Afghanistan the last time they played and now getting out performed by them in this wc. Past events where you're going back to 2014 era isn't relevant.

You're right. No one believed Pakistan was No.1, and honestly they weren't. There were alot of B/C teams that Pakistan beat. But they were still a better and higher ranked team than Afghanistan going into the WC that had been winning matches more consistently than they had in years.

Again whats the relevance? Why is the past relevant? Isn't this am excuse? Afghanistan beat a full strength asia and A full strength pakistan, they beat 2023 England and nearly beat 2023 Australia while Pakistan have been getting butchered by all these teams left and right. So why does going in no 1 ranked pre WC have any relevance to 2024?

Need I remind you the original premise of you're argument Is Pakistan is STILL KEY WORD STILL THE 2ND BEST TEAM IN ASIA. So why are you arguing about the past? Aren't these coming up with 50+ narratives?

Also, the idea that England were awful because they had a bad WC is quite laughable. Again, the quality of players that England has are players that Afghanistan can only dream of having. In limited-overs cricket, confidence and momentum are a big thing. England in 2019 gave Afghanistan the thrashing of a lifetime when Morgan smashed Rashid alone for 10 sixes. The England squad from 2023 had many of the same players that won the WC 4 years prior. But England were overconfident and undercooked. But their performance in that WC was not a true reflection of how good they are. Side note: England were absolutely thrashed by Sri Lanka too in the same WC. Are we going to now pretend that Sri Lanka are better than England too?

Again going by player names and reputation is completely irrelevant. 2023 wc England was twrrible based of my previous reasoning. And yes 2023 wc sri lanka > England by miles. 2023 sri lanka even beat Pakistan. Pakistan came close to sri lanka in Asia cup and beat Sri Lanka in world cup because rizwan and Abdullah kicked off in both games, Rizwan who surprisingly clicked both times and Abdullah was a brand newbie who scored 52 in asia cup and 111 against them in wc. Without these 2 Sri lanka would have washed Pakistan left and right. The rest of the baggage was dead.

The only difference between Pakistan vs Sri lanka and England vs Sri lanka is that the only good inform batter they had which was Malan he didn't kick off in that game while Pakistan's 2 batters kicked off with rizwan playing a very very outlier innings, since he usually never gets such an absurdly high score in Odi's.

Any team can win one match. And consistently bottling and not bottling is what differentiates the best from the rest. If you can't handle pressure in this sport, you will lose most matches. Which is exactly why Afghanistan, despite their raw talent and incredible rise have constantly gotten reality checks from bigger teams. Be it Pakistan, Australia or India.

It aint one match, it's consistent losses to C team Nz, one loss to Afghanistan, utter thrashing by England, one loss to USA, one loss to India, Barely scraping by Canada and if you wish to go back to 2023, its losses to literally every team besides Nedtherlands amd Bangladesh, sri lanka required out of skin batting and Abdullah shafiq aka a newbie came through while NZ once again required a once in a generational innings from fakhar to get through.

Neither of Abdullah, Rizwan or Fakhar are kicking off qith the likes of mujeeb, Noor, Rashid, Farooqi bowling to them, Fakhar can bully sodhi and rizwan is surprisingly good against Sri Lanka but it won't happen against other opposition

@RedwoodOriginal Theirs a typo > where I said Afghanistan beat a full strength Asia.

I meant full strength Australia

 

[jnaveen1980]

Afghanistan is a better side than this. Nepal, USA both batted far better than against SA than this. This is stage fright and lcak of mental preparation that led to this abysmal collapse. Add a spicy track you can rip this side apart. Theyw ill come back strong.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

you can also say Pakistan managed to qualify twice in last three Pak vs Bd is no comparison. Since their last win over Pak in Asia cup 2018 , Pakistan has not lost a game against bd across formats. scoreline reads 13-0 they are yet to register a win against Pakistan in test cricket. and Bd has better win ratio against India in odi cricket. Pakistan had one bad series in 2015 with relatively new team after wc. India lost two odi series against bd with full strength. once in 2015 and again in 2023. Pakistan cricket won champions trophy in 2017. Afg on the rise and Afg being actually better than Pak are entirely two different things. Pak cricket can also go on upward trajectory in no time. they have the resources to do so and would nt need years to pull that off

Dikkat yahaan hai sir, the last statement. Pakistan has stagnated in sports in this century completely. Yahi soch kar "Qudrat ne bahut talent baksha hai"
Pakistan has not played an U19 World final in the last 10 years while Bangladesh managed a win in 2020. Recent trends ko dekho and do a reality check. The pipeline is dry. World cricket needs a strong Pakistan, I might take schadenfreude in this fall, but overall the game of cricket suffers with the absence of Pakistan. but again world moves on, someone else will take its place.
Hockey is still a sport popular and growing in other parts of the world, while its forgotten in Pakistan.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Lol you can't just pick and choose the stats.
Now I will choose the stats since 2010 T20 world cup Pakistan has made semi finals 4 times and finals one time.

2022 wasn't ancient history. Pakistan was the finalist in the edition and semi finalist in 2021 edition.

10 years is generally a decent sample size, badaa lo timeline mera kya jaata hai. Facts won't change. I hope PCB admins also has same IQ as you have. It will be lovely to see these threads in the future.

 

[Mesozoic]

Still remember the 2021-22 period where people were giving out statements like "Pakistan and Sri Lanka are better T20 sides than India" just because they beat us in Dubai.

No. Afghanistan is not a better white ball side than Pakistan.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Dikkat yahaan hai sir, the last statement. Pakistan has stagnated in sports in this century completely. Yahi soch kar "Qudrat ne bahut talent baksha hai"
Pakistan has not played an U19 World final in the last 10 years while Bangladesh managed a win in 2020. Recent trends ko dekho and do a reality check. The pipeline is dry. World cricket needs a strong Pakistan, I might take schadenfreude in this fall, but overall the game of cricket suffers with the absence of Pakistan. but again world moves on, someone else will take its place.
Hockey is still a sport popular and growing in other parts of the world, while its forgotten in Pakistan.

Similar thing was said when Pak played dismal cricket in 2015 wc followed by awful 2016 t20 wc.. they were number 8 in odi cricket at the time and still managed to win an icc trophy. icing on the cake was beating best team in the world in final. Pakistan did nt perform bad in 2019 wc. they finished on equal points as NZ the eventual finalist and actual winner in my opinion despite a washout against lanka that deprived us of semi spot. but interestingly in that tournament we beat both finalists in group stage.. and both finalists beat India ( best team ) .. India is far ahead against Pakistan in terms of overall performance across formats in last 10 years and it might take Pakistan a decade to catch up with india but we will see once Rohit and kohli retire how things stack up. we are talking about asian teams and i dnt see afg better than Pakistan for now. they are very good in t20. lets see if they can win something in test cricket. so if Pakistan can rise out ashes post 2015.. what makes you think Pak cant do that again? u19 performances are irrelevant. hardly players from u19 in asian teams come to the fore

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Still remember the 2021-22 period where people were giving out statements like "Pakistan and Sri Lanka are better T20 sides than India" just because they beat us in Dubai.

No. Afghanistan is not a better white ball side than Pakistan.

true

 

[giri26]

Man for man, Pakistan are clearly better than Afghanistan, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. However, they're disorganised, confused in their thinking and demotivated currently. In sport, that can count for a lot.

Where that places the 4 teams in some subcontinent heriarchy, I do not know but it feels like any game between these teams would be a toss-up. That is a travesty given Pakistan's cricket history, (cricket) financial status, talent pool and public following.

How is Pakistan man for man better than Afghanistan? Batting maybe, just because of Babar, pace bowling-a big maybe as AFG pacers aren't bad at all but Pakistan take this for now, Spin? You can't seriously say Pakistan has any spinner equal to Rashid, Noor and Nabi in their ranks. Pakistan would struggle against Afghanistan on subcontinent pitches because of the spin resources they have. On the other hand Pakistan spinners would struggle to trouble a half decent batting line up in any condition.

 

[Mesozoic]

But one thing is for sure though.

The gap between India and the rest of the Asian sides right now is huge and only growing in all the formats..

A couple of years back Pakistan were pretty close to us in T20 cricket but they top are garbage right now in their best format. The less we talk about ODIs and Tests the better.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Similar thing was said when Pak played dismal cricket in 2015 wc followed by awful 2016 t20 wc.. they were number 8 in odi cricket at the time and still managed to win an icc trophy. icing on the cake was beating best team in the world in final. Pakistan did nt perform bad in 2019 wc. they finished on equal points as NZ the eventual finalist and actual winner in my opinion despite a washout against lanka that deprived us of semi spot. but interestingly in that tournament we beat both finalists in group stage.. and both finalists beat India ( best team ) .. India is far ahead against Pakistan in terms of overall performance across formats in last 10 years and it might take Pakistan a decade to catch up with india but we will see once Rohit and kohli retire how things stack up. we are talking about asian teams and i dnt see afg better than Pakistan for now. they are very good in t20. lets see if they can win something in test cricket. so if Pakistan can rise out ashes post 2015.. what makes you think Pak cant do that again? u19 performances are irrelevant. hardly players from u19 in asian teams come to the fore

Thanks for acknowledging that, India has more than enough capable replacements for Rohit and Kohli in Gill, Jaiswal, Rinku etc. the only replacement that worries us is for Bumrah.
Tons of senior players are from U-19 set up bhai, you should check up on that. Jaiswal, Gill, Kohli, Ravindra Jadeja, Arshdeep Singh are all all from U-19 set up just to count a few .. others will be too.

Pakistan has not risen out of any Ashes since 2015, its decline there are a couple of spikes but overall trend is growing down bhai.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

You are making alot of excuses when the reality is that Afghanistan has only beaten a full-strength Pakistan once in any format. If I need 50 excuses/modifiers to justify one point then it probably means that point isn't as strong as I think it is.

Theirs a difference between an excuse and arguing as to why a particular event happened. Afghanistan beating Pakistan is a recent event, the recent events include Pakistan losing to Afghanistan the last time they played and now getting out performed by them in this wc. Past events where you're going back to 2014 era isn't relevant.

You're right. No one believed Pakistan was No.1, and honestly they weren't. There were alot of B/C teams that Pakistan beat. But they were still a better and higher ranked team than Afghanistan going into the WC that had been winning matches more consistently than they had in years.

Again whats the relevance? Why is the past relevant? Isn't this am excuse? Afghanistan beat a full strength asia and A full strength pakistan, they beat 2023 England and nearly beat 2023 Australia while Pakistan have been getting butchered by all these teams left and right. So why does going in no 1 ranked pre WC have any relevance to 2024?

Need I remind you the original premise of you're argument Is Pakistan is STILL KEY WORD STILL THE 2ND BEST TEAM IN ASIA. So why are you arguing about the past? Aren't these coming up with 50+ narratives?

Also, the idea that England were awful because they had a bad WC is quite laughable. Again, the quality of players that England has are players that Afghanistan can only dream of having. In limited-overs cricket, confidence and momentum are a big thing. England in 2019 gave Afghanistan the thrashing of a lifetime when Morgan smashed Rashid alone for 10 sixes. The England squad from 2023 had many of the same players that won the WC 4 years prior. But England were overconfident and undercooked. But their performance in that WC was not a true reflection of how good they are. Side note: England were absolutely thrashed by Sri Lanka too in the same WC. Are we going to now pretend that Sri Lanka are better than England too?

Again going by player names and reputation is completely irrelevant. 2023 wc England was twrrible based of my previous reasoning. And yes 2023 wc sri lanka > England by miles. 2023 sri lanka even beat Pakistan. Pakistan came close to sri lanka in Asia cup and beat Sri Lanka in world cup because rizwan and Abdullah kicked off in both games, Rizwan who surprisingly clicked both times and Abdullah was a brand newbie who scored 52 in asia cup and 111 against them in wc. Without these 2 Sri lanka would have washed Pakistan left and right. The rest of the baggage was dead.

The only difference between Pakistan vs Sri lanka and England vs Sri lanka is that the only good inform batter they had which was Malan he didn't kick off in that game while Pakistan's 2 batters kicked off with rizwan playing a very very outlier innings, since he usually never gets such an absurdly high score in Odi's.

Any team can win one match. And consistently bottling and not bottling is what differentiates the best from the rest. If you can't handle pressure in this sport, you will lose most matches. Which is exactly why Afghanistan, despite their raw talent and incredible rise have constantly gotten reality checks from bigger teams. Be it Pakistan, Australia or India.

It aint one match, it's consistent losses to C team Nz, one loss to Afghanistan, utter thrashing by England, one loss to USA, one loss to India, Barely scraping by Canada and if you wish to go back to 2023, its losses to literally every team besides Nedtherlands amd Bangladesh, sri lanka required out of skin batting and Abdullah shafiq aka a newbie came through while NZ once again required a once in a generational innings from fakhar to get through.

Neither of Abdullah, Rizwan or Fakhar are kicking off qith the likes of mujeeb, Noor, Rashid, Farooqi bowling to them, Fakhar can bully sodhi and rizwan is surprisingly good against Sri Lanka but it won't happen against other opposition

This argument is about being the second best team in Asia right? Then what does Pakistan losing matches to other teams have to do with that? We are not arguing how good or bad Pakistan is. We are arguing how good or bad Pakistan is in comparison to other Asian teams, particularly Afghanistan.

How would you judge one team in comparison to the other, if not for all their recent meetings against each other? Your argument is basically that because Afghanistan managed to win one match against Pakistan and a few other big teams, and get to the SF, while Pakistan had some embarrassing upsets, therefore Afghanistan is better? lol. I can't even phrase your argument in a coherent manner That's how many if ands and buts it has. It makes zero sense. Pakistan has beat Afghanistan in the past, they have beaten Afghanistan in the present and they will beat Afghanistan in the future too.

Because like I said, for all their talent and despite their incredible rise, Afghanistan are serial bottlers who simply have not developed complete players in their team. It's not their fault. They don't have the system or infrastructure to do so. But I don't see what there is to gain by overrating them especially when there are far too many big matches where they have completely blown it. One win is just that, one win. Any team can have a good day. But Pakistan would beat Afghanistan most times in any format, just like they have almost every time these two have met.

 

[Usman Chadda]

This argument is about being the second best team in Asia right? Then what does Pakistan losing matches to other teams have to do with that? We are not arguing how good or bad Pakistan is. We are arguing how good or bad Pakistan is in comparison to other Asian teams, particularly Afghanistan.

How would you judge one team in comparison to the other, if not for all their recent meetings against each other? Your argument is basically that because Afghanistan managed to win one match against Pakistan and a few other big teams, and get to the SF, while Pakistan had some embarrassing upsets, therefore Afghanistan is better? lol. I can't even phrase your argument in a coherent manner That's how many if ands and buts it has. It makes zero sense. Pakistan has beat Afghanistan in the past, they have beaten Afghanistan in the present and they will beat Afghanistan in the future too.

Because like I said, for all their talent and despite their incredible rise, Afghanistan are serial bottlers who simply have not developed complete players in their team. It's not their fault. They don't have the system or infrastructure to do so. But I don't see what there is to gain by overrating them especially when there are far too many big matches where they have completely blown it. One win is just that, one win. Any team can have a good day. But Pakistan would beat Afghanistan most times in any format, just like they have almost every time these two have met.

We have already had these same arguments made back in 2014-2017, when Bangladesh was doing well with most of their players at the peak of the powers.

They had actually demolished Pakistan in an ODI series at home and held their own in the Test series aswell.

Beat Pakistan in two consecutive Asia Cup games by convincing margins, and were ranked above us for a period of time aswell.

None of which Afghanistan has achieved yet.

We all know how that comparison ended up a few years later, unfortunately for Bangladesh.

Notwithstanding the fact that everybody forgets Afghanistan got white-washed by this mediocre Pakistan team in helpful conditions, just before the Asia Cup 2023.

Afghanistan couldn’t whitewash a bunch of PSL noobs in their favorite format back in 2023.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Thanks for acknowledging that, India has more than enough capable replacements for Rohit and Kohli in Gill, Jaiswal, Rinku etc. the only replacement that worries us is for Bumrah.
Tons of senior players are from U-19 set up bhai, you should check up on that. Jaiswal, Gill, Kohli, Ravindra Jadeja, Arshdeep Singh are all all from U-19 set up just to count a few .. others will be too.

Pakistan has not risen out of any Ashes since 2015, its decline there are a couple of spikes but overall trend is growing down bhai.

to replace kohli and Rohit is not an easy task. Bumrah too. not sure if he can maintain his form until 2027 wc when he will be 35 plus. Fast bowlers dnt tend go beyond 35 in cricket careers. Rohit and Kohli are generational talent.. India has more than enough back up.. but im not sure if they can replace these two in terms of success. Pakistan had equal win ratio against India in odi cricket until 2013. once these two rose up.. it became difficult for Pakistan to win against india in odi cricket. so Pakistan’s last odi win was back in 2017 ct final. since then Pakistan has played 5 odis against India loosing all 5 and Rohit was x factor in all those wins. he scores were prolific. kohli rescued India in melbourne and Bumrah in New York. i think pak will start winning odis again once these three go

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

We have already had these same arguments made back in 2014-2017, when Bangladesh was doing well with most of their players at the peak of the powers.

They had actually demolished Pakistan in an ODI series at home and held their own in the Test series aswell.

Beat Pakistan in two consecutive Asia Cup games by convincing margins, and were ranked above us for a period of time aswell.

None of which Afghanistan has achieved yet.

We all know how that comparison ended up a few years later, unfortunately for Bangladesh.

Notwithstanding the fact that everybody forgets Afghanistan got white-washed by this mediocre Pakistan team in helpful conditions, just before the Asia Cup 2023.

Afghanistan couldn’t whitewash a bunch of PSL noobs in their favorite format back in 2023.

all games were in Sharjah .. if matches happened in dubai.. even psl noobs would have won the series. 2nd t20 was decided in final 2 overs.. and 3rd one was completely one sided after they got hold of conditions and assessed afg bowlers

 

[Red-Indian]

How is Pakistan man for man better than Afghanistan? Batting maybe, just because of Babar, pace bowling-a big maybe as AFG pacers aren't bad at all but Pakistan take this for now, Spin? You can't seriously say Pakistan has any spinner equal to Rashid, Noor and Nabi in their ranks. Pakistan would struggle against Afghanistan on subcontinent pitches because of the spin resources they have. On the other hand Pakistan spinners would struggle to trouble a half decent batting line up in any condition.

If you take the top 5 batters across both teams, I'd say Pakistan have 3 and Afghanistan 2
Top 5 quicks - same ratio
You're right about the spinners. It's a major advantage having Rashid, Nabi and now Noor

Even so, over the last 3 years, Pakistan has been better in T20Is

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	NR	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
Pakistan	2021-2024	75	38	31	1	5	1.225	25.11	8.13	70	232	115
Bangladesh	2021-2024	77	36	39	0	2	0.923	20.51	7.24	76	207	73
Afghanistan	2021-2024	54	26	26	1	1	1.000	21.47	7.46	54	212	56
Sri Lanka	2021-2024	58	26	30	2	0	0.866	21.74	7.72	58	206	77

The head to heads make it a little more fuzzy but the margins and fine and the only thing clear is that Bangladesh is the weakest of the bunch.

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	NR	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
Sri Lanka	2021-2024	15	10	5	0	0	2.000	24.12	8.29	15	206	105
Pakistan	2021-2023	15	9	6	0	0	1.500	21.01	7.07	15	182	115
Afghanistan	2021-2024	19	9	10	0	0	0.900	20.93	7.10	19	209	94
Bangladesh	2021-2024	19	6	13	0	0	0.461	20.04	7.43	19	203	105

The teams are all very close and I still think Pakistan is the better team by a shade.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

to replace kohli and Rohit is not an easy task. Bumrah too. not sure if he can maintain his form until 2027 wc when he will be 35 plus. Fast bowlers dnt tend go beyond 35 in cricket careers. Rohit and Kohli are generational talent.. India has more than enough back up.. but im not sure if they can replace these two in terms of success. Pakistan had equal win ratio against India in odi cricket until 2013. once these two rose up.. it became difficult for Pakistan to win against india in odi cricket. so Pakistan’s last odi win was back in 2017 ct final. since then Pakistan has played 5 odis against India loosing all 5 and Rohit was x factor in all those wins. he scores were prolific. kohli rescued India in melbourne and Bumrah in New York. i think pak will start winning odis again once these three go

You rightly said "generational talent"
We thought Sachin Sehwag Ganguly could not be replaced .. we got the next generation of Kohli, Rohit and Shikhar Dhawan, now the next generation of Jaiswal, Gill, Rinku have already started to deliver. We are pretty secure in that man. India always had a big pipeline of batsman and its stronger than ever. Jaiswal is already in top rankings in both Tests and T20I higher than both Kohli and Rohit. Pakistan has been spared from Jaiswal so far ask England.

 

[jnaveen1980]

You rightly said "generational talent"
We thought Sachin Sehwag Ganguly could not be replaced .. we got the next generation of Kohli, Rohit and Shikhar Dhawan, now the next generation of Jaiswal, Gill, Rinku have already started to deliver. We are pretty secure in that man. India always had a big pipeline of batsman and its stronger than ever. Jaiswal is already in top rankings in both Tests and T20I higher than both Kohli and Rohit. Pakistan has been spared from Jaiswal so far ask England.

I wanted rohit and Kohli gone even in 2021. Sure these guys can play a blinder once in a while from muscle memory. That doesn't mean we don't have better resources. Only last year Ruturaj made 123 in 57 balls against Australia in the T20 match. He is not even 2nd back up.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

But one thing is for sure though.

The gap between India and the rest of the Asian sides right now is huge and only growing in all the formats..

A couple of years back Pakistan were pretty close to us in T20 cricket but they top are garbage right now in their best format. The less we talk about ODIs and Tests the better.

Pakistan can still get rid of certain players because atleast there is a viable talent pool. Even right now there are numerous players outside the team that could replace those that have failed miserably in recent times. Not sure that the same can be said about Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Afghanistan.

Sri Lanka is the most shocking and its kind of unbelievable how they haven't been able to find a single batter that is in any way reliable. Mahela and Sanga left 9 years ago. And the Sri Lankan team right now really isn't any different than it was in 2016 when it was supposed to be in a rebuilding phase.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

We have already had these same arguments made back in 2014-2017, when Bangladesh was doing well with most of their players at the peak of the powers.

They had actually demolished Pakistan in an ODI series at home and held their own in the Test series aswell.

Beat Pakistan in two consecutive Asia Cup games by convincing margins, and were ranked above us for a period of time aswell.

None of which Afghanistan has achieved yet.

We all know how that comparison ended up a few years later, unfortunately for Bangladesh.

Notwithstanding the fact that everybody forgets Afghanistan got white-washed by this mediocre Pakistan team in helpful conditions, just before the Asia Cup 2023.

Afghanistan couldn’t whitewash a bunch of PSL noobs in their favorite format back in 2023.

LOL I remember those days vividly. And keep in mind that Bangladesh has a far better system and infrastructure than Afghanistan. Thing about Afghanistan is that their growth as a team has been ret@rded. And I mean this in the basic sense of the word, not in a derogatory way. Its not their fault. But you can't create a top-level international cricket team without a viable system and infrastructure in place. During the early days, they were playing their cricket in Pakistan and making use of Pakistan's facilities, which weren't that great to begin with...especially back then. Now they play their home matches in India, with training camps often taking place in India or UAE. And those are just the players that get selected to play for Afghanistan. The rest are training in Afghanistan. On top of that their domestic system is newly created and the quality of cricket is likely very low. The only way for their players to hone their skills is T20 leagues. And only a handful are getting picked in leagues throughout the world. Even fewer are getting IPL contracts.

Afghanistan got hammered by Pakistan C in the last match of that series by 60+ runs or something. As good as Afghanistan can be on their day, they can look like absolute minnows when it isn't their day.

I don't think anyone here is saying that Pakistan are a great side. We are a mediocre side and if momentum is going our way in ICC tournaments then we can be brilliant. But Afghanistan isn't nearly the team that most people here are making it out to be.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

How is Pakistan man for man better than Afghanistan? Batting maybe, just because of Babar, pace bowling-a big maybe as AFG pacers aren't bad at all but Pakistan take this for now, Spin? You can't seriously say Pakistan has any spinner equal to Rashid, Noor and Nabi in their ranks. Pakistan would struggle against Afghanistan on subcontinent pitches because of the spin resources they have. On the other hand Pakistan spinners would struggle to trouble a half decent batting line up in any condition.

Pakistan hammered Afghanistan 3-0 in spin-friendly Sri Lanka months prior to the WC.

And c'mon man. Are you seriously going to compare Farooqi and Naveen to Naseem, Shaheen and Rauf? They are trundlers that can only do well on slow pitches. Naveen is literally a poor man's Bumrah. Don't get me wrong, they are really good T20 bowlers. But how many test wickets are they capable of taking? Farooqi has been taken apart by Naseem Shah twice. He had zero answers to freaking Naseem Shah who smacked him around like government mule.

 

[Usman Chadda]

all games were in Sharjah .. if matches happened in dubai.. even psl noobs would have won the series. 2nd t20 was decided in final 2 overs.. and 3rd one was completely one sided after they got hold of conditions and assessed afg bowlers

With all due respect to Bangladesh 2014-2017, I do like this bunch of Afghan cricketers more so. Bangladesh were clinical and professional, Afghans have a bit more flair about them so makes for fun watching.

Yeah agreed, the second T20 was quite close and lost by Naseem Shah, while they got decimated in the third game.

Got white-washed less than a year ago against the same opponents, in conditions tailor-made for their spinners.

They are good and fun to watch, but when they become flat then saari hawa bauhat tezi se nikal jaati hai

 

[Red-Indian]

Pakistan can still get rid of certain players because atleast there is a viable talent pool. Even right now there are numerous players outside the team that could replace those that have failed miserably in recent times. Not sure that the same can be said about Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Afghanistan.

Sri Lanka is the most shocking and its kind of unbelievable how they haven't been able to find a single batter that is in any way reliable. Mahela and Sanga left 9 years ago. And the Sri Lankan team right now really isn't any different than it was in 2016 when it was supposed to be in a rebuilding phase.

It's when you bring India into the head-to-heads that you realise how lopsided the subcontinent has become. India have won 3+ games for every one we've lost. And this is just T20s. Easily India's worst format. If we look at Tests and ODI's, it's a lot worse.

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	NR	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	2021-2023	18	13	4	0	1	3.250	42.79	6.24	18	409	186
Pakistan	2023-2023	11	6	4	0	1	1.500	34.31	5.45	10	345	128
Bangladesh	2022-2024	21	11	10	0	0	1.100	30.23	5.12	21	334	164
Sri Lanka	2021-2024	28	12	15	0	1	0.800	30.35	5.64	28	381	50
Afghanistan	2022-2024	24	7	16	0	1	0.437	28.83	5.26	24	339	59

It's really weird how much cricket quality has fallen in the sub-continent outside India.

 

[big_gamer007]

welll that didn’t age well.

 

[Red-Indian]

It's when you bring India into the head-to-heads that you realise how lopsided the subcontinent has become. India have won 3+ games for every one we've lost. And this is just T20s. Easily India's worst format. If we look at Tests and ODI's, it's a lot worse.

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	NR	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	2021-2023	18	13	4	0	1	3.250	42.79	6.24	18	409	186
Pakistan	2023-2023	11	6	4	0	1	1.500	34.31	5.45	10	345	128
Bangladesh	2022-2024	21	11	10	0	0	1.100	30.23	5.12	21	334	164
Sri Lanka	2021-2024	28	12	15	0	1	0.800	30.35	5.64	28	381	50
Afghanistan	2022-2024	24	7	16	0	1	0.437	28.83	5.26	24	339	59

It's really weird how much cricket quality has fallen in the sub-continent outside India.

Sorry that was ODIs. I was playing around with the tool and lost track. Here's the T20 data. Not hugely better but improved Afghanistan's standing and worsened Bangladesh's

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	NR	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	2021-2024	25	17	6	1	1	2.833	32.62	8.88	24	228	119
Sri Lanka	2021-2024	25	14	11	0	0	1.272	23.61	8.11	25	206	105
Pakistan	2021-2024	20	11	9	0	0	1.222	22.00	7.24	20	182	115
Afghanistan	2021-2024	26	9	15	1	1	0.600	20.78	7.22	26	212	94
Bangladesh	2021-2024	22	6	16	0	0	0.375	19.56	7.36	22	203	105

 

[AMSS]

Nobody who actually bets actual money would put their money on Afghanistan/Bangers over Pakistan in a 5 match series. Pakistan have a level of depth that these two upstart would struggle to cope with.

And this is the whole problem with the whole shtick that began on this forum and elsewhere too where nothing else is considered except performance in world tournaments. This basically started to put Sachin down but it's not taken a life where credible arguments are being made where Joginder Sharma is a better bowler than Shaheen or Naseem. Poetic but not logical.

 

[Vikram1989]

Pakistan had equal win ratio against India in odi cricket until 2013.

Post 2000, pak lost 3 odi series and india lost 2 odi series before 2013 and gap kept on increasing .Why do u think it's rohit/kohli for indian ascendancy.Jaiswal scored double the amount of runs(710) against eng in test series than rohit(300 odd).Gill had 3 match winning knocks.Sai sudarshan scored good runs and won the match against south Africa first eleven on a pacy pitch in sa .You should check for other indian poster's requesting the removal of seniors

 

[mominsaigol]

Nobody who actually bets actual money would put their money on Afghanistan/Bangers over Pakistan in a 5 match series. Pakistan have a level of depth that these two upstart would struggle to cope with.

And this is the whole problem with the whole shtick that began on this forum and elsewhere too where nothing else is considered except performance in world tournaments. This basically started to put Sachin down but it's not taken a life where credible arguments are being made where Joginder Sharma is a better bowler than Shaheen or Naseem. Poetic but not logical.

Depends in the team.

If the team is

1) Babar
2) Rizwan
3) Usman
4) Fakhar
5) Shadab
6) Chacha
7) Imad/Azam
8) Shaheen
9) Naseem
10) Rauf
11) Amir

Then I'm placing my bets in Afghanistan 100%

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Post 2000, pak lost 3 odi series and india lost 2 odi series before 2013 and gap kept on increasing .Why do u think it's rohit/kohli for indian ascendancy.Jaiswal scored double the amount of runs(710) against eng in test series than rohit(300 odd).Gill had 3 match winning knocks.Sai sudarshan scored good runs and won the match against south Africa first eleven on a pacy pitch in sa .You should check for other indian poster's requesting the removal of seniors

2 series India lost at home ground. out of 3 that india won , 2004 was a close one. so thats not huge difference. if you count number of matches post 2000-2014 head to head.. its pretty much even. May be couple more for india. thats not dominance the way indians think they started dominating Pakistan post 2004 series. real domination is recent that started post 2014 asia cup. Pakistan and india have only met in odi world cups and asia cups. since 2015 pak and india only played 9 odis with india winning 7 pakistan 1 and one was washed out. thats very low number to span over 10 years to give any kind of insights. out of these seven wins , both rohit and kohli have been star performers in every game. we will have to watch if india can continue that kind of win ratio against Pak after kohli and rohit retirement

 

[Vikram1989]

2 series India lost at home ground. out of 3 that india won ,

2006 was 1-4 loss for pak at home.2007 was quite one sided(last odi was with experimental side) .post 2014,pak is complete garbage in odi and kohli,rohit are too good to miss out against them(Even dhawan scored heavily).we will know by next year asia cup and ct, with new lot,but gap won't be reduced for sure

 

[TeymurBlake]

The historical issue Pakistan have had over the years is inconsistencies, however they've always been able to put up good sides & get a few decent results.

However currently the one area Pakistan lack is wicket taking spinner like Rashid Khan. Pakistan have Abrar as the closest option to Rashid. Players get into form or out of it but Pakistan still do have good players and potentially very talented players.

In conclusion, Afghanistan are in a golden period of their history, however they're still not ahead of Pakistan.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

2006 was 1-4 loss for pak at home.2007 was quite one sided(last odi was with experimental side) .post 2014,pak is complete garbage in odi and kohli,rohit are too good to miss out against them(Even dhawan scored heavily).we will know by next year asia cup and ct, with new lot,but gap won't be reduced for sure

England was complete trash in odis during 2000-2010 yet they came back strongly in next decade. that assurance of gap is misplaced. Pakistan’s problems are more to do with management and politics than skill. this can be fixed

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Sorry that was ODIs. I was playing around with the tool and lost track. Here's the T20 data. Not hugely better but improved Afghanistan's standing and worsened Bangladesh's

Team	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	NR	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
India	2021-2024	25	17	6	1	1	2.833	32.62	8.88	24	228	119
Sri Lanka	2021-2024	25	14	11	0	0	1.272	23.61	8.11	25	206	105
Pakistan	2021-2024	20	11	9	0	0	1.222	22.00	7.24	20	182	115
Afghanistan	2021-2024	26	9	15	1	1	0.600	20.78	7.22	26	212	94
Bangladesh	2021-2024	22	6	16	0	0	0.375	19.56	7.36	22	203	105

Yeah that doesn't surprise me. Its been like this for a very long now.

 

[giri26]

England was complete trash in odis during 2000-2010 yet they came back strongly in next decade. that assurance of gap is misplaced. Pakistan’s problems are more to do with management and politics than skill. this can be fixed

The biggest reason for England to turn around their white ball fortune was because they realised that they were really poor. Not the fans, not the media but the management did. They took harsh calls, dropped dead-weights and picked a team under Eoin Morgan and prepared for 2019 WC. The approach and mentality was the problem for England, they did not have other issues like fitness. Pakistan's problem is more than just approach. I don't expect such retrospection from Pakistan management either. The players themselves lack self evaluation from what I can see from outside. Neither Babar or Rizwan look like players who look at themselves and say, yes we aren't good enough, which England was happy to do.

The first step to a change is to accept there is a problem, have Pakistan done that ever?

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Pakistan are currently the champions trophy holders, and were runners up to England in the last t20 world cup. So all in all its not all doom and gloom. Infact, currently they are the only Asian team who holds a icc Trophy. LOL

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Pakistan are currently the champions trophy holders, and were runners up to England in the last t20 world cup. So all in all its not all doom and gloom. Infact, currently they are the only Asian team who holds a icc Trophy. LOL

that is likely to change this saturday

 

[BouncerGuy]

Pakistan are currently the champions trophy holders, and were runners up to England in the last t20 world cup. So all in all its not all doom and gloom. Infact, currently they are the only Asian team who holds a icc Trophy. LOL

They won't be able to defend their title in the upcoming tournament. This team is not winning anything until major ins and outs are done.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The biggest reason for England to turn around their white ball fortune was because they realised that they were really poor. Not the fans, not the media but the management did. They took harsh calls, dropped dead-weights and picked a team under Eoin Morgan and prepared for 2019 WC. The approach and mentality was the problem for England, they did not have other issues like fitness. Pakistan's problem is more than just approach. I don't expect such retrospection from Pakistan management either. The players themselves lack self evaluation from what I can see from outside. Neither Babar or Rizwan look like players who look at themselves and say, yes we aren't good enough, which England was happy to do.

The first step to a change is to accept there is a problem, have Pakistan done that ever?

Which format are you talking about though? T20Is sure. But ODIs? Babar averages 56 in ODIs at a SR of nearly 90. He has been a great ODI player for a number of years now. Rizwan took some time to find his feet but last year even he averaged 64 at a SR of 94 and was our best batter at the WC where he helped Pakistan gunned down the highest ever total in a WC runchase. Overall his numbers in ODIs are 40 avg. and a SR of 90. These are fairly good numbers for someone who bats 1-4 in ODIs.

If Pakistan can find a decent spinner and someone from 5-7, they can be a very good ODI side. They have the fast-bowlers and the top order.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Which format are you talking about though? T20Is sure. But ODIs? Babar averages 56 in ODIs at a SR of nearly 90. He has been a great ODI player for a number of years now. Rizwan took some time to find his feet but last year even he averaged 64 at a SR of 94 and was our best batter at the WC where he helped Pakistan gunned down the highest ever total in a WC runchase. Overall his numbers in ODIs are 40 avg. and a SR of 90. These are fairly good numbers for someone who bats 1-4 in ODIs.

If Pakistan can find a decent spinner and someone from 5-7, they can be a very good ODI side. They have the fast-bowlers and the top order.

Babar, is the GOAT of statpadding no one comes close. The amount of impact less runs is insane.
Babar has amazing average of 52 with SR oh almost 90 against the SENA+India but ...
Pakistan has 30% win rate against SENA+India during his illustrious career.
The real reflection of statpad is the comparing players with similar averages and number of man of the matches won.
Babar Azam would have the lowest man of the match award rate to any similar player.

 

[maha3us]

We cannot say Afghanistan could be placed second among the Asian teams playing white ball cricket just based on their performance in the recent World cup T20. I will always say the ICC ranking system provides the position of each team in a reasonably fair manner and if I am to define Asian white ball hierarchy, I will do that based on the ICC ranking system. It is true India occupies the top position among the Asian teams because of the consistency with which they have been winning matches. As shown the ICC ranking system, Pakistan comes the second because of the mercurial way they play the games and in some cases their performance is great while in other cases they play dismally. As far Sri Lanka unfortunately they have gone down in their performance though till 2014 they had been one of the top teams in white ball cricket. Bangladesh have never been consistently winning matches. Afghanistan is definitely an improving side. Still they could not be placed second before they consistently play white ball bilateral series with other Asian teams and also consistently win.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Babar, is the GOAT of statpadding no one comes close. The amount of impact less runs is insane.
Babar has amazing average of 52 with SR oh almost 90 against the SENA+India but ...
Pakistan has 30% win rate against SENA+India during his illustrious career.
The real reflection of statpad is the comparing players with similar averages and number of man of the matches won.
Babar Azam would have the lowest man of the match award rate to any similar player.

Attributing Pakistan's lack of wins against these teams to Babar is as dumb as attributing India's lack of trophies to Kohli.

Neither of these factors take away from the fact that both are great players. Statpadding would be if all his runs were scored against minnows.

 

[Bhaijaan]

With Bharat and Afghans securing top 2 positions, it’s been the other nations to fill up the rest of the positions.


My take :-

3. Sri Lanka
4. Pakistan
5. Bangladesh