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The Caste System: Disgusting bigotry or uncomfortable truth?

Cpt. Rishwat

Cpt. Rishwat

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It's called the caste system in India, but you could call it the class society in modern western terms. Some of the terminology used for undesirables in our midst has made me think about this subject for some time now so would like to hear some thoughts, then I will share my own.

Here are some pointers for direction:

low wage jobs
manual labour
termites
dark skin
immigrants
white chavs
Eastern Europeans
 
None of my Hindu friends ever talk about this - dont think the newer gen cares that much.
 
the caste system is the worst it's a part of Hindu culture and religion and this has nothing to do with Islam yet this is in graved in a Muslim country like Pakistan
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
It's called the caste system in India, but you could call it the class society in modern western terms. Some of the terminology used for undesirables in our midst has made me think about this subject for some time now so would like to hear some thoughts, then I will share my own.

Here are some pointers for direction:

low wage jobs
manual labour
termites
dark skin
immigrants
white chavs
Eastern Europeans
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Its disgusting Cap, which is one of the reason why I support getting rid of article 370, I heard the lower cast people from Mainland India are brought to Kashmir to do the cleaning jobs and never allowed to have any other jobs other than the low end bottom barrel jobs like cleaning the streets, roads, toilets etc due to their caste in Kashmir (Apparently this was a Kashmiri law ?).... Now they will be allowed to have jobs other than the dirty work in Indian Kashmir. I hope rest of India follows suit...
 
It's just a rotten discrimatory mindset which is still prevalent in our society. Will take atleast 4-5 decades to get rid of this rotten mindset.
 
MenInG said:
None of my Hindu friends ever talk about this - dont think the newer gen cares that much.
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Not talking about it doesn't mean they don't care about it though. Could be definitions have changed with the times. Also worth considering that what Indians call a caste system might not be that different outside of India with a slightly different terminology.
 
MenInG said:
None of my Hindu friends ever talk about this - dont think the newer gen cares that much.
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Your Hindu friends live in India or UK? In India it's very relevant and is embedded in mindset of majority of the population. However, the trend is definitely on a downward spiral especially amongst the kids from metropolitan cities. Will take atleast half a century for a massive mindset change.
 

Who understands all this I for one don't get it anymore, its discriminatory which ofcourse you know as well Cap.
 
It depends from place to place. In some states, caste system is very prominent while in some other states, it has no presence.

Secondly, people are starting to realize the benefits of the caste system. Hence, more tribes are now asking for going lower in the hierarchy as it means they will have higher reservation when it comes to jobs, education, promotion etc.

Being a lower caste isn't a curse anymore (except in villages where people will treat you different in different places in India) but in other places, it's actually a blessing.
 
JaDed said:

Who understands all this I for one don't get it anymore, its discriminatory which ofcourse you know as well Cap.
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Watched it yesterday.

What an awesome movie! Anubhav Sinha has done a fabulous job. He made 'Mulk' before this movie. And that was an awesome watch as well.

But Article 15 is something else. Great performances from entire crew, led by Ayushman Khurana who is such a tremendous actor.
 
Also, this movie shows how backward our villages are in terms of growth and an acceptable standard of living. We've got so many problems to solve in our own backyard.

Which is precisely why we must not waste our time in meaningless issues.
 
It is part of Indian and Hindu culture in particular.
 
Caste system is rotten to the core and we should get rid of it. However it will not happen overnight given the vast distributed landscape and population. It's a slow process , hopefully in another 20-30 years we see its impact getting very limited.

In NE, Bengal, Assam, Kerala, Goa the system is effectively defunct. It does exists as an identity but the level of exploitation and discrimination in these states are already minimal. The real problem is in UP, Haryana, Andhra/Telangana, Tamil Nadu, Rajasthan, MP etc.
 
PakLFC said:
It is part of Indian and Hindu culture in particular.
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Well, that was the reason for this thread actually. We assume that caste is only part of Indian culture, but in reality you will find discrimination in every society, and truth be told, we all follow a class system of sorts.

In India you will find that wealthier and more priveleged folk will look down on menial castes, but in another thread, cricketjoshila was bragging about the wealth earnings of Indian immigrants, but that got me thinking. If you have an Indian doctor in the UK and an English one, the English one will automatically be held in higher regard. Same with an English builder and a Polish one.Or in the US, a white American actor and a Mexican one.

Now granted, this isn't caste system per se, but it probably doesn't feel that different. Something to ponder.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Well, that was the reason for this thread actually. We assume that caste is only part of Indian culture, but in reality you will find discrimination in every society, and truth be told, we all follow a class system of sorts.

In India you will find that wealthier and more priveleged folk will look down on menial castes, but in another thread, cricketjoshila was bragging about the wealth earnings of Indian immigrants, but that got me thinking. If you have an Indian doctor in the UK and an English one, the English one will automatically be held in higher regard. Same with an English builder and a Polish one.Or in the US, a white American actor and a Mexican one.

Now granted, this isn't caste system per se, but it probably doesn't feel that different. Something to ponder.
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In other parts of the world where there is discrimination we don't have zillions of people called "untouchables" like in India. There is discrimination in the developed west as well, this is a different kind to what we see in India. The problem is clearly the Brahmin attitude of seeing even their co coreligionists as being nothing more then their servants. There are many forms of discrimination like hatred of homosexuals and so forth even in the west however what we have in India is something very different. It is deeply ingrained in India society because of Brahmanism.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Well, that was the reason for this thread actually. We assume that caste is only part of Indian culture, but in reality you will find discrimination in every society, and truth be told, we all follow a class system of sorts.

In India you will find that wealthier and more priveleged folk will look down on menial castes, but in another thread, cricketjoshila was bragging about the wealth earnings of Indian immigrants, but that got me thinking. If you have an Indian doctor in the UK and an English one, the English one will automatically be held in higher regard. Same with an English builder and a Polish one.Or in the US, a white American actor and a Mexican one.

Now granted, this isn't caste system per se, but it probably doesn't feel that different. Something to ponder.
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If you read about history of caste system and early beginnings it was a system used to identify with profession. The well educated priests who were brahmins, shop keepers were baniyas, fighters were kshatriyas, and those who did menial work like cleaning were considered Shudras.

For that time period caste system worked perfectly as it identified people with profession. However, with time it kept getting rotten to a point where things like untouchability came into the forefront. From profession based it became racism/exploitation/social division based system.

It's the same as with everything else that humans twist for their own greed (including religion). Nowadays caste system is a huge deal especially in politics so it's very difficult to get rid of it. The government's use it to gain votes and keep people divided and let's the entire system at forefront of everyone's mindset.

Having said the above BJP's last couple of years have shifted the focus away from caste system, and brought out religion as a whole in the forefront.
 
PakLFC said:
In other parts of the world where there is discrimination we don't have zillions of people called "untouchables" like in India. There is discrimination in the developed west as well, this is a different kind to what we see in India. The problem is clearly the Brahmin attitude of seeing even their co coreligionists as being nothing more then their servants. There are many forms of discrimination like hatred of homosexuals and so forth even in the west however what we have in India is something very different. It is deeply ingrained in India society because of Brahmanism.
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The main difference I feel between caste and other forms of discrimination is that in the caste system, you have lesser means of escaping your destiny, as you are born into the caste and the stigma will be passed on to future generations. But that could also be considered true for races. There are clinics in Asia where women are having cosmetic surgery to make their eyes look more western. Do you see such clinics where Western women are having surgery to make their eyes smaller and more slit-like?
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
The main difference I feel between caste and other forms of discrimination is that in the caste system, you have lesser means of escaping your destiny, as you are born into the caste and the stigma will be passed on to future generations. But that could also be considered true for races. There are clinics in Asia where women are having cosmetic surgery to make their eyes look more western. Do you see such clinics where Western women are having surgery to make their eyes smaller and more slit-like?
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By scripture, caste is attributed to the work a person does and not by birth. Which means, in ancient times, it was just a division depending upon the type of labor you do. Though in modern times, people took it as by birth according to general conception which is actually doesn't follow the original concept.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
It's called the caste system in India, but you could call it the class society in modern western terms. Some of the terminology used for undesirables in our midst has made me think about this subject for some time now so would like to hear some thoughts, then I will share my own.

Here are some pointers for direction:

low wage jobs
manual labour
termites
dark skin
immigrants
white chavs
Eastern Europeans
Click to expand...

Caste system is the way Indian society worked for centuries. Certain group of people took up religious mantle (Brahmins). Some trade(Vyshyas). Some Agriculture and Land Lords(Shudras) and some rulers of the land.

Then there are outcastes who are the original people of the Indian subcontinent. They were not part of Hindu society and hence were never allowed to mix with caste Hindus. These days they are called as Dalits (Thanks to Ambedkar). They are considered unclean and hence lived outside in separate communities. For livelihood, they had to enter the cities and towns of caste Hindus. They do menial jobs which no other caste Hindu does. It has been like that for centuries.

It is not an uncomfortable truth. It is uncomfortable for Hindus who live in the West as they get asked about this discrimination. For Hindus in rural areas, it is a non-issue. Its been like that for thousands of years. Dalits among themselves have hierarchy. They discriminate other Dalits and do not marry into them. I read a recent news that some Dalit family killed another Dalit guy who was in love with their daughter. Hierarchy is strictly followed.

No where caste is mentioned in Vedas. We can see the first mentions of it in Mahabharata. That will be like more than 3,500 years ago. It was fluid back then. People could move from one caste to the other based on their tendencies.

With the advent of Manu Smriti about 2000 years ago, the movement of people from one caste to another was banned. You are what you are born into. You can see the fruits of it in the modern day India. Though in cities, most do not care about caste unless it comes to marriage, in rural areas, it is strictly enforced.

Good thing is youth are not caring much about caste these days. Many Brahmin Boys and Girls are marrying non-brahmins. In Andhra, I personally know many Brahmin girls who married Reddys and Kapu caste boys and vice versa. I only know 2 cases of Brahmin girls marrying Dalits. It is still kind of rare.
 
Hindu's do have a caste issue even in the UK. I don't know if or not they consider marrying outside their caste as a problem or not? Even the younger generation are really in to this caste thing as seen in the above programme.
 
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nextover666666 said:
the caste system is the worst it's a part of Hindu culture and religion and this has nothing to do with Islam yet this is in graved in a Muslim country like Pakistan
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It is no way near as important amongst Muslim's as it is in Hindu society. Horoscopes also play an important role in Hindu marriages as well. Amongst Muslim's it is mostly the Sunni-Shia division that matters.
 
Technics 1210 said:
Given the presenters opening gambit is *Most Hindus are proud of their caste*, I'd say there is a Caste problem prevalent in Hinduism.
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I watched about half of it yesterday, and must say I was quite surprised that it is so prevalent. Quite a few of those interviewed look like they were brought up here but still were very proud of their castes, although for obvious reasons there wasn't as many voices for the low castes. I wonder why Indians don't discuss this openly in the west?

As a side issue, I know that we tend to look down on choora caste in Pakistan, how do they rank with Dalits? I asked a Pakistani relative and they didn't know what a Dalit was. I take it we don't have them in Pakistan?
 
I think it has more to do with genes now and less to do with caste.

Its pretty obvious genes play a huge part in what we become and what we inherit from our parents. Which even includes knowledge.
 
there is a bit of a difference from my experience, Pakistanis treat caste as a identity thing, and usually promote marriages within castes, but from my own experience there is not much emphasis placed on a hierarchy, that is ive seen different castes interact as if there is no difference, other than the marriage thing.

people who place too much weight on it are stupid, however from a personal pov i think its not something bad per se, helps you understand someones background, etc, from a simple question, its akin to me asking someone where they grew up, and if they say east London, ill know there will be certain things we have in common.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
I watched about half of it yesterday, and must say I was quite surprised that it is so prevalent. Quite a few of those interviewed look like they were brought up here but still were very proud of their castes, although for obvious reasons there wasn't as many voices for the low castes. I wonder why Indians don't discuss this openly in the west?

As a side issue, I know that we tend to look down on choora caste in Pakistan, how do they rank with Dalits? I asked a Pakistani relative and they didn't know what a Dalit was. I take it we don't have them in Pakistan?
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Caste system is declining with time. Mostly NRI people in West are educated so they dnt believe in this crap.

Mostly indian youth of today generation also dnt believe in caste system.
Caste system was built on the the work people used to do but later on with passage of time, it got corrupted due to greed of people and caste became by birth. Indian Constitution has no place of caste system.
 
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Akki malhotra said:
Caste system is declining with time. Mostly NRI people in West are educated so they dnt believe in this crap.

Mostly indian youth of today generation also dnt believe in caste system.
Caste system was built on the the work people used to do but later on with passage of time, it got corrupted due to greed of people and caste became by birth. Indian Constitution has no place of caste system.
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I have heard this alternative view offered by Hindu members on this site, but if you watch the programme you will not see it being supported by Hindus themselves. I wonder if this is not an apologist rewriting of history to deflect the criticism we see in the west of caste system?

In the documentary it is expressly said that you are born into your caste and die with it. This also fits the spiritual teachings we know of reincarnation which Hinduism has taught for centuries.
 
Sir-fraz said:
I think it has more to do with genes now and less to do with caste.

Its pretty obvious genes play a huge part in what we become and what we inherit from our parents. Which even includes knowledge.
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That is not true. Are you a scientist? If yes, then I would like you to educate me on researches done which proves that.


I can understand genes playing an important role in physical development, however, I think genes don't play as important role in intellectual development as upbringing does.

Knowledge is not related to genes, it's related to upbringing and what is taught.

I am surprised to read the word "genes" on this particular thread and am curious why you think this way?
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
I have heard this alternative view offered by Hindu members on this site, but if you watch the programme you will not see it being supported by Hindus themselves. I wonder if this is not an apologist rewriting of history to deflect the criticism we see in the west of caste system?

In the documentary it is expressly said that you are born into your caste and die with it. This also fits the spiritual teachings we know of reincarnation which Hinduism has taught for centuries.
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There is nothing to be apologetic about. I don't think there's any proper documentation from thousands of years ago, which tells you why the caste system was present.
The alternate view which you talk about depends on a person and what he was taught. Not everyone has the same view, many still believe caste system is the right thing. Many feel superior to others because of caste.

It's a rotten mindset, whatever the reason might have had been for starting the caste system, the truth is it's a rotten system for today's hindu's and should be completely eradicated.
 
big_gamer007 said:
That is not true. Are you a scientist? If yes, then I would like you to educate me on researches done which proves that.


I can understand genes playing an important role in physical development, however, I think genes don't play as important role in intellectual development as upbringing does.

Knowledge is not related to genes, it's related to upbringing and what is taught.

I am surprised to read the word "genes" on this particular thread and am curious why you think this way?
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Genes definilty playba role, your dna records everything and that gets passed on to the next generation i.e. your kid.

They both go hand in hand, if you are born in an edcuated household the higher the chances that you youself will be educated. Regardless of economic situation.

Nature vs nurture. However personally i do believe nurture trumps nature.

But nature i.e genes definilty play a huge role in a humans development.
 
Sir-fraz said:
Genes definilty playba role, your dna records everything and that gets passed on to the next generation i.e. your kid.

They both go hand in hand, if you are born in an edcuated household the higher the chances that you youself will be educated. Regardless of economic situation.

Nature vs nurture. However personally i do believe nurture trumps nature.

But nature i.e genes definilty play a huge role in a humans development.
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Hmm are there a y researches done which proves this hypothesis?

I can understand in physical aspect. Africans are generally better at sports than sub continent folks, so I believe genetics play a role in that.

However, how important is the role of genetics learning? You are saying a child of a poor illiterate person, if raised in a wealthy household from birth, with proper teaching and nurturing (assume he got adopted the day he was born) will be behind let's say the real child of those same rich parents?
 
big_gamer007 said:
There is nothing to be apologetic about. I don't think there's any proper documentation from thousands of years ago, which tells you why the caste system was present.
The alternate view which you talk about depends on a person and what he was taught. Not everyone has the same view, many still believe caste system is the right thing. Many feel superior to others because of caste.

It's a rotten mindset, whatever the reason might have had been for starting the caste system, the truth is it's a rotten system for today's hindu's and should be completely eradicated.
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You have pretty much hit the nail on the head. Regardless of it's original format and intentions, however Noble it might be, it is a system today to exploit and discriminate people and keep power and entitlements limited to a section in whatever way one looks at it. This is equally true with reservations as well where a second or third generation beneficiary of the reservation system won't give a damn to somebody who have never received the benefits of reservation.

Bottom line it is a tool to exploit people today and we must get rid of this bigotry.
 
Those at the top of the chain will be in favour, those poor souls at the bottom will hate it.

Something rather uncomfortable about it.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
It's called the caste system in India, but you could call it the class society in modern western terms. Some of the terminology used for undesirables in our midst has made me think about this subject for some time now so would like to hear some thoughts, then I will share my own.

Here are some pointers for direction:

low wage jobs
manual labour
termites
dark skin
immigrants
white chavs
Eastern Europeans
Click to expand...

It's starting to creep out here in the UK, as more Hindus reconcile with their heritage and the desire to impose their superiority on the low class Hindu.

One major difference between Hindu caste system and the modern western caste system as I understand it is that you can't change your caste in Hinduism. So a Dalit/Untouchable (don't think you're supposed to call them that now but I think OBC's also include some upper castes) cannot escape to a higher caste and conversely a higher caste cannot be demoted.

You are forever stuck with that caste which obviously is problematic for the Dalits and lower castes as they can never improve their social standing in terms of caste. I'm not sure what the situation is when people from different castes marry. I'm assuming the caste stays the same and children would probably take the father caste although I might be wrong here.

With the Indian government having extremists in power, its only natural that higher castes will start targeting Dalits and other lower castes once they're bored with targeting Muslims. We already see this type of violence flare up from time to time in the media. But of course we won't get to hear about the majority of caste based crimes that are probably taking place every day across the country.

In terms of the title of the thread, the bigotry is a repercussion of an uncomfortable truth because the caste system has been in place for thousands of years. The lowest classes and Dalits as Dalits aren't even a class are condemned to the bottom of the hierarchy forever.
 
Kroll said:
It's starting to creep out here in the UK, as more Hindus reconcile with their heritage and the desire to impose their superiority on the low class Hindu.

One major difference between Hindu caste system and the modern western caste system as I understand it is that you can't change your caste in Hinduism. So a Dalit/Untouchable (don't think you're supposed to call them that now but I think OBC's also include some upper castes) cannot escape to a higher caste and conversely a higher caste cannot be demoted.

You are forever stuck with that caste which obviously is problematic for the Dalits and lower castes as they can never improve their social standing in terms of caste. I'm not sure what the situation is when people from different castes marry. I'm assuming the caste stays the same and children would probably take the father caste although I might be wrong here.

With the Indian government having extremists in power, its only natural that higher castes will start targeting Dalits and other lower castes once they're bored with targeting Muslims. We already see this type of violence flare up from time to time in the media. But of course we won't get to hear about the majority of caste based crimes that are probably taking place every day across the country.

In terms of the title of the thread, the bigotry is a repercussion of an uncomfortable truth because the caste system has been in place for thousands of years. The lowest classes and Dalits as Dalits aren't even a class are condemned to the bottom of the hierarchy forever.
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I think the caste system as something which is passed down generations can only survive in an enclosed environment like India. Once you go abroad the lower castes won't have the same restrictions, so you will get some of the more talented ones achieving higer rank than they ever could at home. That in itself will weaken the hold of caste at home over time when people see that there is a false ceiling imposed on them.

But as I said, the caste system in India isn't really that much different to racism in western countries on a silent level. The main difference being that in western countries even if there is racism, you have laws to protect you from it, and the bigotry has to be kept in check to a lower level with dog whistle politics.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
I think the caste system as something which is passed down generations can only survive in an enclosed environment like India. Once you go abroad the lower castes won't have the same restrictions, so you will get some of the more talented ones achieving higer rank than they ever could at home. That in itself will weaken the hold of caste at home over time when people see that there is a false ceiling imposed on them.

But as I said, the caste system in India isn't really that much different to racism in western countries on a silent level. The main difference being that in western countries even if there is racism, you have laws to protect you from it, and the bigotry has to be kept in check to a lower level with dog whistle politics.
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Absolutely, the lower castes can go abroad and attain a high standing in whatever field they choose to participate. The problem is they can't achieve a higher ranking within the caste system as this is imprinted on you from cradle to the grave, in previous incarnations and future reincarnations to come.

But there is evidence to suggest there has been discrimination even in the UK against lower class Hindus especially in areas of London and Leicester where there is sizeable Hindu communities. I note that even personalities like Dr Ambedkar a Dalit achieved high status in politics going on to write the Indian constitution and eventually converting to Buddhism. This shows that even in India, Dalits and the lowest classes could still attain high levels of achievement but they will always be labelled as low class.

I can only conclude that areas with large demographics of the Hindu community outwith India itself, this problem of caste discrimination is rearing its ugly head. Some low class Hindus are having to conceal or perhaps even lie about their caste classification in order to protect themselves from losing their jobs or getting bullied. Sad state of affairs when you consider some have purposefully gone abroad to escape this sort of toxic persecution.

The fact that you can never change your caste according to Hindu Varna could be psychologically very damaging to Dalits and other low castes because of this. Especially if they have fled India only to face similar discrimination elsewhere. Abroad, caste system could easily be used as a tool for the higher classes to exert their power and influence over the lower classes as a means of keeping control.
 
It is bigotry and blatant discrimination.

I have posted above why Dalits are treated as Out-castes. The situation may have been different 2000 years ago as Dalits did not accept Sanatana Dharma. But in this day and age, nobody should be discriminated based on some myth or delusions of people in prehistoric times.
 
troodon said:
It is bigotry and blatant discrimination.

I have posted above why Dalits are treated as Out-castes. The situation may have been different 2000 years ago as Dalits did not accept Sanatana Dharma. But in this day and age, nobody should be discriminated based on some myth or delusions of people in prehistoric times.
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Many people at present will be very happy with the hierarchy, ie the Brahmins and Kshatriyas. The caste system will also be a very useful tool for politicians to exploit in a vote grabbing exercise.
 
Kroll said:
Many people at present will be very happy with the hierarchy, ie the Brahmins and Kshatriyas. The caste system will also be a very useful tool for politicians to exploit in a vote grabbing exercise.
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Politicians pander to the Dalits and Backward Castes. They form the bulk of the people. Upper Caste is only 10% of the overall population.

Of course, once politicians get the votes, they rarely do anything for the dirt poor strata of the society. Even the Dalits who get elected do nothing for their fellow Dalits. Everyone is happy to fill their pockets.
 
Caste system can end in a couple of generations. All it needs is for upper caste Hindus to be willing to marry lower caste Hindus.
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
Caste system can end in a couple of generations. All it needs is for upper caste Hindus to be willing to marry lower caste Hindus.
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Or upper caste Hindus to marry lower caste non-Hindus as prescribed by leading Indian celebrities such as Preity Zinta, Priyanka and perhaps some leading Bollywood male heroes who have not become famous yet.
 
The backward caste and scheduled caste makes up nearly half of India’s population.

The upper caste is only 15%, roughly same percentage as Muslims..

It’s amazing how a mere 15% of Hindus, with help from caste system believing Muslims have subjugated half the country this long!
 
I don't think the caste system can be rid of so easily. The Manusmriti regarded to be the most important and authoritative book on Hindu law and dating back to at least 3,000 years "acknowledges and justifies the caste system as the basis of order and regularity of society".

Yes, people will say its 3000 years old but its part of Hindu law.
 
Kroll said:
I don't think the caste system can be rid of so easily. The Manusmriti regarded to be the most important and authoritative book on Hindu law and dating back to at least 3,000 years "acknowledges and justifies the caste system as the basis of order and regularity of society".

Yes, people will say its 3000 years old but its part of Hindu law.
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Its nothing to do with the caste system from ancient Hindu guidelines except in a few rural areas.

The caste system has many privileged in modern India be it in education and job sector and hence, the different tribes who are regarded as "general" are also applying for SC and the SC are applying for ST.

Lower caste isn't a stigma anymore. It is a very handy tool if you know how to use it.
 
Itachi said:
Its nothing to do with the caste system from ancient Hindu guidelines except in a few rural areas.

The caste system has many privileged in modern India be it in education and job sector and hence, the different tribes who are regarded as "general" are also applying for SC and the SC are applying for ST.

Lower caste isn't a stigma anymore. It is a very handy tool if you know how to use it.
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Caste system is the original form of meritocratic society. Turned bad when it turned hereditary during the gupta period. Take that away, and it how a society can function most efficiently.
 
Itachi said:
Its nothing to do with the caste system from ancient Hindu guidelines except in a few rural areas.

The caste system has many privileged in modern India be it in education and job sector and hence, the different tribes who are regarded as "general" are also applying for SC and the SC are applying for ST.

Lower caste isn't a stigma anymore. It is a very handy tool if you know how to use it.
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What percentage of higher castes are willing to marry lower castes?

Are you willing to marry someone of the lower caste, assuming they have the other attributes you are looking for?
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
What percentage of higher castes are willing to marry lower castes?

Are you willing to marry someone of the lower caste, assuming they have the other attributes you are looking for?
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I think if they had those attributes in general, then the caste discrimination would die it's own death. The question is, how likely is it that a lower caste would have those attributes?
 
The caste system was borne out of profession and class delineation in the first place.. if you cleaned houses for a living, you are a “Choora” or fixed shoes a “Mochi” and if you owned land and grew crops, you became a higher class businessman and became a “Chaudhry”

So that was the origin of the class system.. it’s not as if there was a religious divide in the castes of India. To this day, the elite have tried to maintain that status quo and if you are a religious scholar, government or office worker, or business class, you are an elite, if you do menial jobs, you are low class.

Islam taught us that we are all the same, however, the Muslims of the subcontinent inherited the same bias of caste system and thus we see this even amongst Muslims of the subcontinent to this day. If you are a gujjur, you sell milk, if you are Rajput it whatever you are an educated warrior/government servant class, etc.

All man made divisions with roots in prejudice of classism.. that’s all castes are.
 
Stewie said:
The caste system was borne out of profession and class delineation in the first place.. if you cleaned houses for a living, you are a “Choora” or fixed shoes a “Mochi” and if you owned land and grew crops, you became a higher class businessman and became a “Chaudhry”

So that was the origin of the class system.. it’s not as if there was a religious divide in the castes of India. To this day, the elite have tried to maintain that status quo and if you are a religious scholar, government or office worker, or business class, you are an elite, if you do menial jobs, you are low class.

Islam taught us that we are all the same, however, the Muslims of the subcontinent inherited the same bias of caste system and thus we see this even amongst Muslims of the subcontinent to this day. If you are a gujjur, you sell milk, if you are Rajput it whatever you are an educated warrior/government servant class, etc.

All man made divisions with roots in prejudice of classism.. that’s all castes are.
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My understanding is that the castes originate from Lord Brahma. The Brahmins come from Brahma's head, the Kshatriyas come from his arms, the Vaishyas from the thighs and so forth which gives rise to the pyramid hierarchy model.

The exception being the Dalits who are technically outside the caste system. So there could be some religious angle to this?
 
Kroll said:
My understanding is that the castes originate from Lord Brahma. The Brahmins come from Brahma's head, the Kshatriyas come from his arms, the Vaishyas from the thighs and so forth which gives rise to the pyramid hierarchy model.

The exception being the Dalits who are technically outside the caste system. So there could be some religious angle to this?
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Only a Knowledgeable hindu can verify this for us but what you wrote definitely sounds interesting. If it has any basis in the hindu mythology, that would sort of cast the whole belief system in a bad light, in my opinion.
 
Stewie said:
Only a Knowledgeable hindu can verify this for us but what you wrote definitely sounds interesting.
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Definitely, we all need to be enlightened regarding this aspect as it is a bit hazy.
 
The caste system is in Pakistan as well ofcourse not as prominent in India but still a lot of ethnic groups don't marry with other ethnic groups.
 
minamino said:
The caste system is in Pakistan as well ofcourse not as prominent in India but still a lot of ethnic groups don't marry with other ethnic groups.
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We have just combined a lot of different things together in a bad way to call it our caste system.
Technically our caste system is actual tribe system, where we combine the castes based on age old historical professions associated with people and tribal identity into one. But either way it’s a bad bad idea..
 
Stewie said:
Only a Knowledgeable hindu can verify this for us but what you wrote definitely sounds interesting. If it has any basis in the hindu mythology, that would sort of cast the whole belief system in a bad light, in my opinion.
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From what I've seen most Hindus on this site are more knowledgable about Islam, [MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] will quite often post lots of proofs from Islamic texts to show his deep knowledge of the religion alhamdulillah.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
From what I've seen most Hindus on this site are more knowledgable about Islam, [MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] will quite often post lots of proofs from Islamic texts to show his deep knowledge of the religion alhamdulillah.
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It seems they only want to debate Islam and not their own faith.. I wonder why? What could possibly hurt them if the spot light is on Hinduism?

I have yet to hear a single response on the subject from a hindu, and Its not a trick question. We just want to know. Whether they know Islam more than their own faith is irrelevant, I think some of it is borne out of fear somehow that Islam is out to get them.
 
Itachi said:
Its nothing to do with the caste system from ancient Hindu guidelines except in a few rural areas.

The caste system has many privileged in modern India be it in education and job sector and hence, the different tribes who are regarded as "general" are also applying for SC and the SC are applying for ST.

Lower caste isn't a stigma anymore. It is a very handy tool if you know how to use it.
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You must be an upper caste guy to say things like this. Dude, casteism is a problem even in states like Kerala. People still look down on them. They still get lynched brutally if they dare to marry anyone from higher caste.
 
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...based-on-indian-employees-caste-idUSKBN2423YE

California accuses Cisco of job discrimination based on Indian employee's caste

OAKLAND, Calif. (Reuters) - California regulators sued Cisco Systems Inc (CSCO.O) on Tuesday, accusing it of discriminating against an Indian-American employee and allowing him to be harassed by two managers because he was from a lower Indian caste than them.

U.S. employment law does not specifically bar caste-based discrimination, but California’s Department of Fair Employment and Housing contends in the lawsuit that the Hindu faith’s lingering caste system is based on protected classes such as religion.

The lawsuit, filed in federal court in San Jose, does not name the alleged victim. It states he has been a principal engineer at Cisco’s San Jose headquarters since October 2015 and that he was born at the bottom of caste hierarchy as a Dalit, once called “untouchables.”

Like other large Silicon Valley employers, Cisco’s workforce includes thousands of Indian immigrants, most of whom were born Brahmins or other high castes.

Former Cisco engineering managers Sundar Iyer and Ramana Kompella also are defendants in the lawsuit, which accuses them of harassment for internally enforcing the caste hierarchy.

Cisco spokeswoman Robyn Blum said the network gear maker followed its process to investigate employee concerns in this case and would “vigorously defend itself” against the lawsuit.

“Cisco is committed to an inclusive workplace for all,” she said. “We were fully in compliance with all laws as well as our own policies.”

Iyer and Kompella did not immediately respond to requests for comment. It was not immediately known if the two have retained attorneys.

The civil rights group Equality Labs in a 2018 report cited in the lawsuit found that 67% of Dalits surveyed felt treated unfairly at their U.S. workplaces.

At Cisco, the unnamed employee reported Iyer to human resources in November 2016 for outing him as a Dalit to colleagues. Iyer allegedly retaliated, but Cisco determined caste discrimination was not illegal and issues continued through 2018, the lawsuit states.

Cisco reassigned and isolated the employee, rejected a raise and opportunities that would have led to one and denied two promotions, according to the lawsuit.

Hindus traditionally grouped people into four major castes based on ancestry, and Dalits in India still struggle with access to education and jobs 65 years after India banned caste-based discrimination.
 
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I have to say this is the big issue in southern India even among the educated ones, during my time in Chennai Caste was discussed not in a discriminating way but more like ack in the workplace, whereas I ve never had this talk with colleagues from Maha,Bengal or North of India.(who otherwise are pretty casteist w.r.t politics within India), my assumption is this because of the conservative nature in South and marriages strictly between same castes.
 
It isn't just a Hindu issue. Why are there ravadissia sikn?, If anything, sikhism perpetuates it as it's intrinsic to jatt/"warrior race"
 
Why the mention of chavs?...quite a big difference between chavs and people of a low caste
 
CricketCartoons said:
The great "sir" syed ahmed khan was a casteist bigot, but he was also a reformist if you ignore that.
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I read the above article as well, my point is on Sikhism not on the current followers of the religion who defn are not reformist in any sense with sex ratio of 896 and Literacy rate of 75.(fortunately improving)
 
shaykh said:
Why the mention of chavs?...quite a big difference between chavs and people of a low caste
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Been a while since I made this thread so will have to guess at my thinking process at that time, but white chavs are the low class citizens of Britain, the ones who live in council estates, generally in a state of poverty and ignorance, and as such well to do middle and upper classes avoid contact with them as much as possible.
 
SpiritOf1903 said:
Ultimately though ... It is. It's entrenched in the "warrior race" foundations
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Well it's not, I understand your pov about Jatts though and I can finally see Bollywood makers atleast coming out against it after having glorified Jatts due to Dharmendra.

Thing is Jatts are affluent community across religion who think they are warriors, there is a reason Jatt Maula is huge movie in Pakistan but that doesn't mean cast is part of Islam.
 
JaDed said:
I have to say this is the big issue in southern India even among the educated ones, during my time in Chennai Caste was discussed not in a discriminating way but more like ack in the workplace, whereas I ve never had this talk with colleagues from Maha,Bengal or North of India.(who otherwise are pretty casteist w.r.t politics within India), my assumption is this because of the conservative nature in South and marriages strictly between same castes.
Click to expand...

Did you have that experience over here in Bangalore as well?
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Did you have that experience over here in Bangalore as well?
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Nope, mostly Chennai but tbf I didn't work in B'lore but in college never had an issue/discussion with Caste. I think I need to change the statement to say TN coz I just realized many of my colleagues were from Tamil Nadu.
 
[MENTION=113824]Nikhil_cric[/MENTION] I do see Kanadigas discuss caste in States though.. not as much but its there..and all were above age 35..
 
JaDed said:
[MENTION=113824]Nikhil_cric[/MENTION] I do see Kanadigas discuss caste in States though.. not as much but its there..and all were above age 35..
Click to expand...

Certain pockets in Bangalore and Karnataka in general are highly conservative but the younger generation is moving away i guess.Actually tbf, Bangalore's population was always the most cosmopolitan of the southern states and definitely more so than Chennai's so it might be a bit unfair to compare Chennai to Bangalore in the first place i suppose.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Certain pockets in Bangalore and Karnataka in general are highly conservative but the younger generation is moving away i guess.Actually tbf, Bangalore's population was always the most cosmopolitan of the southern states and definitely more so than Chennai's so it might be a bit unfair to compare Chennai to Bangalore in the first place i suppose.
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True Bangalore is more cosmopolitan than all cities up North as well (barring Mumbai which is kinda west) only if they could fix the traffic :P
 
JaDed said:
True Bangalore is more cosmopolitan than all cities up North as well (barring Mumbai which is kinda west) only if they could fix the traffic :P
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but muslims still face issues when looking to rent a place in bangalore. too many first hand stories.
 
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