The concept of national pride

[AssassinatedDevil]

My inspiration to make this thread came from reading how some posters defend their country no matter what. If that involves dragging other posters through the dirt and throwing around accusations, then so be it. In a way it's admirable, as they go to great lengths to save protect their motherland. But when do these attempts to save their country seem to be nothing more than desperation?

Most of us don't need dozens of reasons to love our country since we were born there to begin with. That in itself is something to be proud of.But does that mean defending it no matter what is justified? If we criticize our country and consider some other country to be much superior, does that mean it is a case of inferiority complex? What does this whole spectrum of National spectrum look like? What do you all think?

 

[DeadBall]

I personally think it's hogwash. A country (especially ours) is just some random lines people drew in the sand before. I also don't get how people are proud when talking about their countrys history, they were not there at the time and whatever someone in their general radius (sometimes involving thousands of kms) should not be a source of patting themselves on the back and feeling better. Same goes for current events involving people who have actually achieved something in life and most people just justify their existence by associating with these people. However we are a tribal species and it is ingrained in our DNA.

I also think that this false "national pride" just divides and separates us even more as human beings. Especially people who don't even live in said borders but just do so because they suffer from identity crisis and think it's their sacred duty to do so. Hopefully we can get over nations, religions, language and all other petty things and speed towards becoming a type 1 civilization.

 

[PakLFC]

One has to be honest when discussing such things. I have no problem in Pakistan being criticised by fully developed western countries. We are not even close to where they stand today, period. However, when countries equal or even worse then us like India or Afghanistan attack Pak then I am here to show the them the mirror. It is natural to love your country of ethnicity, there is nothing wrong in that as long as one doesn't overlook it's faults.

 

[DeadBall]

One has to be honest when discussing such things. I have no problem in Pakistan being criticised by fully developed western countries. We are not even close to where they stand today, period. However, when countries equal or even worse then us like India or Afghanistan attack Pak then I am here to show the them the mirror. It is natural to love your country of ethnicity, there is nothing wrong in that as long as one doesn't overlook it's faults.

India and Afg are not the start and end of it all, try to see a broader picture.

 

[boomboomcheema]

I personally think it's hogwash. A country (especially ours) is just some random lines people drew in the sand before. I also don't get how people are proud when talking about their countrys history, they were not there at the time and whatever someone in their general radius (sometimes involving thousands of kms) should not be a source of patting themselves on the back and feeling better. Same goes for current events involving people who have actually achieved something in life and most people just justify their existence by associating with these people. However we are a tribal species and it is ingrained in our DNA.

I also think that this false "national pride" just divides and separates us even more as human beings. Especially people who don't even live in said borders but just do so because they suffer from identity crisis and think it's their sacred duty to do so. Hopefully we can get over nations, religions, language and all other petty things and speed towards becoming a type 1 civilization.

I think Patriotism is nothing but propaganda used by the elites to encourage the foot soldiers for doing State's dirty work.

The Government is like a Mafia that has the right to rule over a certain piece of Land and people liviing within it, then some Goons ( Paid mercenaries) are hired to maintain it's legitimacy and sometimes go on war with Goons protecting the piece of land across the other side of the border to serve their interests as some sort of sacrifice for the people.

 

[PakLFC]

India and Afg are not the start and end of it all, try to see a broader picture.

I am seeing the broader picture if you can read. That's why I am saying that criticism from developed countries is fully justified.

 

[DeadBall]

I am seeing the broader picture if you can read. That's why I am saying that criticism from developed countries is fully justified.

Yet you complete a full circle and come back to "showing the mirror to India and Afg", who may or may not be equal to us.

 

[DeadBall]

I think Patriotism is nothing but propaganda used by the elites to encourage the foot soldiers for doing State's dirty work.

The Government is like a Mafia that has the right to rule over a certain piece of Land and people liviing within it, then some Goons ( Paid mercenaries) are hired to maintain it's legitimacy and sometimes go on war with Goons protecting the piece of land across the other side of the border to serve their interests as some sort of sacrifice for the people.

True, however it's just not as simple as paid mercenaries. Most of the jawaans fight for something they believe in. I am not saying anything against those who lay their life on the line day in and day out but I just think we should just move on from this pettiness already and not have them sacrifice their lives for such trivial reasons.

 

[Syed1]

"If you aren't a little ashamed of your country history, you don't know your country's history"

 

[Pakistanian]

It's part of human nature, tribalism is ingrained in us. If you take it out then people will still find another thing to rally around like a favorite sports team, college, hometown, political party, movement,popular subcultures, clan/tribe etc

 

[PakLFC]

Yet you complete a full circle and come back to "showing the mirror to India and Afg", who may or may not be equal to us.

Of course we should also point out the hypocrisy of those who wrongly think of them being better then us.

 

[JaDed]

Better than concept of religious pride.

 

[TM Riddle]

Better than concept of religious pride.

Why so?

 

[akki]

I'm pretty sure your Bumbay gdp is also higher than all of icelands but it does make it better

No...it depends actually. For rich people india and subcontinent is best place i guess. They can buy laws,exploits poors and all and all. But in some countries everybody is equal. So it depends.

 

[BlackShadow]

I'm pretty sure your Bumbay gdp is also higher than all of icelands but it does make it better

It would have if Iceland had 200+ million people struggling to get fed.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

I personally think it's hogwash. A country (especially ours) is just some random lines people drew in the sand before. I also don't get how people are proud when talking about their countrys history, they were not there at the time and whatever someone in their general radius (sometimes involving thousands of kms) should not be a source of patting themselves on the back and feeling better. Same goes for current events involving people who have actually achieved something in life and most people just justify their existence by associating with these people. However we are a tribal species and it is ingrained in our DNA.

I also think that this false "national pride" just divides and separates us even more as human beings. Especially people who don't even live in said borders but just do so because they suffer from identity crisis and think it's their sacred duty to do so. Hopefully we can get over nations, religions, language and all other petty things and speed towards becoming a type 1 civilization.

I understand your points but i disagree with some bits. Countries (technically) are lines drawn in the sand but the stories behind each of the lines is the source national pride in many cases. These lines represent the vision our founding fathers had and the struggles they faced. From Gandhi to Jinnah to George Washington, all these figures have historical significance since they fought for a better tomorrow; that tomorrow being the present that we currently live in. Patriotism is often a way to give tribute to such historical figures and their struggles. I do think that most people associate themselves with more successful figures to experience feelings of happiness and triumph. We are all guilty of this. On a granular level, ours lives won't be changed one bit if Pakistan does well in cricket or some other sport, but associating ourselves with public figures that act as ambassadors of the country on the global platform ensures we feel proud to be part of the nation that these players represent.


I agree that this concept of national pride causes alot of conflict in the real world and especially on this forum. National pride often makes us forget the most important thing we all have in common, which is being human. All these tags of nations, religions, left-wing vs right-wing ideologies has fractured society as a whole in many ways.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

"If you aren't a little ashamed of your country history, you don't know your country's history"

Truer words have never been spoken. Wise man whoever said this.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

One has to be honest when discussing such things. I have no problem in Pakistan being criticised by fully developed western countries. We are not even close to where they stand today, period.

I wholeheartedly agree. What is scary is the amount of people who live in denial of such things. To them , Pakistan isn't inferior to the west in any way and if a Pakistani has something to say against Pakistan, then it is a case of inferiority complex. If we don't recognize our problems ourselves, then we will never make progress as a society.

 

[DW44]

Pride in an accident of birth, the best kind of pride because we all know our country is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Sidilicious]

Pride in an accident of birth, the best kind of pride because we all know our country is the best thing since sliced bread.

Add religion to that and then

/Thread

 

[Ocelot]

Suppose if Pakistan ends today, how are you gonna identify yourself to rest of the world? A Muslim? Punjabi? Sindhi? Balochi? Pathan..? Vague answers like "I'm a human", "I'm a world citizen" don't work. What are you?

 

[TQ89]

I think Patriotism is nothing but propaganda used by the elites to encourage the foot soldiers for doing State's dirty work.

The Government is like a Mafia that has the right to rule over a certain piece of Land and people liviing within it, then some Goons ( Paid mercenaries) are hired to maintain it's legitimacy and sometimes go on war with Goons protecting the piece of land across the other side of the border to serve their interests as some sort of sacrifice for the people.

I too share the same opinion as the post above.

 

[TQ89]

Suppose if Pakistan ends today, how are you gonna identify yourself to rest of the world? A Muslim? Punjabi? Sindhi? Balochi? Pathan..? Vague answers like "I'm a human", "I'm a world citizen" don't work. What are you?

Simple. A subcontinental muslim whose ancestors were once indian muslims.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Suppose if Pakistan ends today, how are you gonna identify yourself to rest of the world? A Muslim? Punjabi? Sindhi? Balochi? Pathan..? Vague answers like "I'm a human", "I'm a world citizen" don't work. What are you?

British Indian. I would have no problem with it, one third world country is much the same as the next.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Jingoism is the other side of the coin as self hatred. I think it's fine to have pride in your country as long as you aren't blind to it's shortcomings either. The majority of people are quite realistic about it in reality, you can't really take social media as a barometer of public opinion.

 

[Ocelot]

Simple. A subcontinental muslim whose ancestors were once indian muslims.

In other words, an orphan.

People take national pride because it's an enhancement of their identity, that's what proud nations do. To work for their nation and earn respect in the world.

 

[JaDed]

Why so?

Because country has borders and policies that exist and I rather trust the court than a casteist pandit.

 

[TQ89]

In other words, an orphan.

People take national pride because it's an enhancement of their identity, that's what proud nations do. To work for their nation and earn respect in the world.

That is what the powers to be tell us to keep us behaving like good schoolboys. Pride for such matters is nothing except a short dopamine high for something a perspn or society didn't even work hard to achieve. Being Pakistani,Indian or any xyz is no achievement.

What Proud nations really do is work for their people and let results speak for themselves rather than instilling jingoism & tribalism again & again.

 

[Ocelot]

That is what the powers to be tell us to keep us behaving like good schoolboys. Pride for such matters is nothing except a short dopamine high for something a perspn or society didn't even work hard to achieve. Being Pakistani,Indian or any xyz is no achievement.

What Proud nations really do is work for their people and let results speak for themselves rather than instilling jingoism & tribalism again & again.

So I guess the world should simply drop the idea of borders and nation states, no?

Agreed with the statement in the bold, that's why Americans worked hard to make their country the most powerful in the world and rub it in everyone's face, no one can do anything do about it. Oh wait, that's 'national pride'.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

That is what the powers to be tell us to keep us behaving like good schoolboys. Pride for such matters is nothing except a short dopamine high for something a perspn or society didn't even work hard to achieve. Being Pakistani,Indian or any xyz is no achievement.

What Proud nations really do is work for their people and let results speak for themselves rather than instilling jingoism & tribalism again & again.

Proud nations also require proud people who will put the work in and hold the country to a higher standard. As Ocelot said, look at the Americans as an example.

 

[James]

It seems to be derided as an anti-intellectual position nowadays, but I personally see nothing wrong with patriotism if all it involves is feeling positively connected to the country you were born in and the people around you. Feeling pride in the same is a slightly sillier concept because pride for me is not a given, it is earned through hard work and then reflected upon when we look at back at what we have personally achieved.

What I would not confuse patriotism with is jingoism, and also certainly not nationalism, the latter of which in particular is a different thing and is usually when the bleeding starts.

 

[Mamoon]

Nothing wrong with national pride. However, the line between patriotism and jingoism/xenophobia is very fine, and often blurred.

It is also important to understand that a patriotic person can point faults in his/her country and indulge in criticism. A concept that is difficult to understand for many.

 

[AssassinatedDevil]

Guys, reminder that please don't get personal on this thread. We can have civil discussions and challenge each other people's ideologies as well.

 

[Robert]

I’m proud of the people of my nation who did good things. King Henry II. Henry V’s boys at Agincourt. Elizabeth I. Shakespeare. Austen. Dickens. Wilberforce. Gladstone. Amy Seacole. Lloyd George. My father’s generation who fought off totalitarianism. Any number of philosophers and scientists.

Not proud of the slavers and the Empire-builders.

 

[TM Riddle]

I’m proud of the people of my nation who did good things. King Henry II. Henry V’s boys at Agincourt. Elizabeth I. Shakespeare. Austen. Dickens. Wilberforce. Gladstone. Amy Seacole. Lloyd George. My father’s generation who fought off totalitarianism. Any number of philosophers and scientists.

Not proud of the slavers and the Empire-builders.

What about Tolkein and Rowling?

 

[Robert]

What about Tolkein and Rowling?

Tolkien is the father of the modern heroic fantasy story. Wrote a myth-cycle for the English. The Welsh have their Mabinogion, the Irish their Finn Mac Chuil, the Germans their Ring, but we had nowt until old JRR wrote us LOTR.

Not keen on Rowling’s work, language too prosaic for me, but she got a generation of British kids reading again, so good on her.

 

[MenInG]

Have deleted some garbage posts - if you cannot argue in a civil manner, then dont bother writing posts.