The exaggerated myth of Mohammad Asif

[Nikhil_cric]

Cummins these days is 135-137. McGrath was around the same pace for most of his peak

Are you talking about Cummins when he burst onto the scene in that series in South Africa, when he was 18 or 19 years old?

Cummins until 2019. Clocked upto 155 kph in 2015, was the fastest bowler in average in CT '17.

And until 2020, he was averaging 140 + kphin Test cricket .

 

[TheSultan]

Cummins these days is 135-137. McGrath was around the same pace for most of his peak

Are you talking about Cummins when he burst onto the scene in that series in South Africa, when he was 18 or 19 years old?

McGrath very rarely hit the high 130s. He usually operated in the 130-133 bracket with the effort ball going higher.

The funny thing is before speedguns became the norm, people were placing McGrath and Donald of the time (1999) as speedsters. The 1999 World Cup (where speedguns were introduced in a world tournament for the first time (due to Shoaib), people realised that McGrath was nowhere near a speedster and Donald by that time, was max 88mph.

Naturally Donald was quicker in his early years.

McGrath looked quicker because he was quick off the pitch (Asif was the same), McGrath also got more steep bounce making him appear quicker.

 

[pratiktc]

Myth of Asif is indeed exaggerated.

He was a very skilful bowler with enough pace to push batter back and he had a very short pre-injury good run in 2005-2006. When he came back later he was still skilful but didn't have the yard extra to push batters back. He would bowl dry and to plans but couldn't rise above a flat wicket.

If he hadn't been banned for fixing, with his other bad habits and frail physicality he wouldn't have maintained effectiveness past 2014-15 anyway.

At best he would have ended up 180-190 wkts in 50-55 games at 26-28 avg.

He has a nice highlights reel but in stature he is nowhere near a Shoaib Akhtar whose highlights were compiled on some pretty dead wickets and against some high quality Aus and Ind sides.

 

[BlackstoneRock]

Myth of Asif is indeed exaggerated.

He was a very skilful bowler with enough pace to push batter back and he had a very short pre-injury good run in 2005-2006. When he came back later he was still skilful but didn't have the yard extra to push batters back. He would bowl dry and to plans but couldn't rise above a flat wicket.

If he hadn't been banned for fixing, with his other bad habits and frail physicality he wouldn't have maintained effectiveness past 2014-15 anyway.

At best he would have ended up 180-190 wkts in 50-55 games at 26-28 avg.

He has a nice highlights reel but in stature he is nowhere near a Shoaib Akhtar whose highlights were compiled on some pretty dead wickets and against some high quality Aus and Ind sides.

If and buts means nothing…it’s better to move on and only talk about people who achieved success with skill , determination, talent, hard work and were role models for other to follow and left legacy for other to follow …which is why a sportsperson has much bigger responsibilities beyond just playing the sport.

 

[sweep_shot]

Asif underachieved just like Shane Bond.

Asif was one of the best bowlers during those days (even if stats don't show that).

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Nah man, Cummins has hit 140+ fairly regularly over the last few years

I'm talking about his average pace right now

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Talents like him should be helping the new breed learn bowling wizardry.

 

[AZulfi]

Asif underachieved just like Shane Bond.

Asif was one of the best bowlers during those days (even if stats don't show that).

Actually, stats-wise, both Shane Bond and Asif's numbers match the very best in tests, 87 wickets in 18 games @ 22.09 and 106 wickets in 23 games @ 24.36 respectively. A bowling average < 25 is great (cf. batting average > 50)

However, one could certainly say that they could not leave a legacy behind due to not having played enough games. One had disciplinary issues, the other had recurring fitness problems

 

[sweep_shot]

Actually, stats-wise, both Shane Bond and Asif's numbers match the very best in tests, 87 wickets in 18 games @ 22.09 and 106 wickets in 23 games @ 24.36 respectively. A bowling average < 25 is great (cf. batting average > 50)

However, one could certainly say that they could not leave a legacy behind due to not having played enough games. One had disciplinary issues, the other had recurring fitness problems

Agree.

What I meant was they didn't take many wickets due to not playing enough games. Both had less than 110 Test wickets.

Asif was a 400-500 wickets bowler. So was Shane Bond.

 

[AZulfi]

Agree.

What I meant was they didn't take many wickets due to not playing enough games. Both had less than 110 Test wickets.

Asif was a 400-500 wickets bowler. So was Shane Bond.

Agree and esp in an era where there were more test matches played (T20 wasn't as popular back then) and many bowlers took 300+ wickets

 

[ads101]

Talents like him should be helping the new breed learn bowling wizardry.

I think he should. He was very skilful and I think others would benefit. I’m totally against fixers playing any internationals games again. Once you’ve fixed, that’s it. But I don’t think we should close the door in terms of coaching careers. He can help someone else do well in the limelight instead of himself. And it gives him both a shot at redemption and a second chance. I’m pretty sure Asif would be open to it, and he generally has displayed more decorum in the media than Butt or Amir.

Instead we’re so desperate to bring these fixers back as players as get a few games out of them. It’s never worth it, they’re always worse than they were before after ban. And other cricketers are less discouraged to fix seeing the favourable treatment of fixers and we get more fixing again and again. With all of them then once banned expecting the same type of comeback that the others got.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think he should. He was very skilful and I think others would benefit. I’m totally against fixers playing any internationals games again. Once you’ve fixed, that’s it. But I don’t think we should close the door in terms of coaching careers. He can help someone else do well in the limelight instead of himself. And it gives him both a shot at redemption and a second chance. I’m pretty sure Asif would be open to it, and he generally has displayed more decorum in the media than Butt or Amir.

Instead we’re so desperate to bring these fixers back as players as get a few games out of them. It’s never worth it, they’re always worse than they were before after ban. And other cricketers are less discouraged to fix seeing the favourable treatment of fixers and we get more fixing again and again. With all of them then once banned expecting the same type of comeback that the others got.

The problem is getting them working in official capacity will always be a risk of him corrupting the juniors considering his history. I don't know if there's an official rule but usually cricket boards have stayed away from hiring tainted guys in official capacity.
But yes Asif should be helping the upcoming bowlers. These guys can also give the upcomers hints of how the batters are thinking and how to set them up.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Asif underachieved just like Shane Bond.

Asif was one of the best bowlers during those days (even if stats don't show that).

Asif has not played much... He ruined his career himself, but he was a beast of a bowler...

 

[ads101]

The problem is getting them working in official capacity will always be a risk of him corrupting the juniors considering his history. I don't know if there's an official rule but usually cricket boards have stayed away from hiring tainted guys in official capacity.
But yes Asif should be helping the upcoming bowlers. These guys can also give the upcomers hints of how the batters are thinking and how to set them up.

They won’t fix or corrupt anyone again. Though it’s natural boards will act like this to them and I can’t blame them. But once you’ve fixed you won’t fix again or be involved. It’s too risky now you’re caught, a second offence and you will be vilified. You’re just grateful for the second chance. Plus I bet no one will want to use you if you’re already outed as a fixer. It’s too dangerous to work with those, these illegal bookies want guys with a clean record.

I’d go so far I’d believe that someone who’s fixed before is probably less likely to fix or corrupt now than players that haven’t been proven yet.

I’m against fixers playing again not because I’m scared of them fixing again. Not even that I want them punished. The issue is if they are welcomed back, these illegal bookmakers will persuade others to fix and then point out even if you get caught you’ll resume your international career. It lowers the risk of fixing. And especially for the right money you can persuade a person to risk a few years of his career. Don’t think it’s a coincidence we still seem to have the most fixing cases even after the trio.

I probably wouldn’t make them head coach. But bowling or batting coach is probably fine. Or even something less like temporary batting/bowling consultant is alright. Asif and even Amir could impart a lot of knowledge to our bowling attack. Their skill and bowling guile is on another level to the others we’ve had since them. Even guys like Shaheen, who will arguably have a better career than them, I think is more reliant on physical attributes more than guile or cunning. Someone like Asif or Amir could probably help someone like that up his game even further.

 

[Sachin fan]

They won’t fix or corrupt anyone again.

When Asif was caught first with Nandro and was banned, this is the exact same logic which was used. First time offender, made a mistake. Fans wanted him pardoned and PCB cancelled the ban.

Then he was involved in an altercation where he played victim, escaped with easy punishment and Akhtar got lengthy ban. PCB forgave him for a second time and cancelled his little punishment

Then he was caught using Nandro again in IPL. But his fans claimed, hey its Indian conspiracy, he shouldnt be banned, etc. PCB gave no punishment

Then he was caught with illegal drugs in Dubai airport and was jailed and PCB rushed to help him.

Then finally he influence Amir to fix, with Asif as a senior bowler, there is no way Amir alone would have agreed to fix matches.

So Asif was pardoned not once, not twice, but FOUR different times before fixing was his FIFTH offence.

All the pardons you gave Asif because he was "talented" is what led you to lose Amir too. If PCB had set examples of discipline with Asif right from the beginning, they would have a couple of decades of completely unprofessional and ill disciplined team and Pak cricket team, would have achieved way more.

 

[Sachin fan]

What I find really funny is some of the same people who claim Bumrah didnt play enough matches or his 215 wickets is not enough for him to be considered a great bowler, are giving a bowler legendary status who has barely 100 wickets in tests. Hilarious.

 

[ads101]

When Asif was caught first with Nandro and was banned, this is the exact same logic which was used. First time offender, made a mistake. Fans wanted him pardoned and PCB cancelled the ban.

Then he was involved in an altercation where he played victim, escaped with easy punishment and Akhtar got lengthy ban. PCB forgave him for a second time and cancelled his little punishment

Then he was caught using Nandro again in IPL. But his fans claimed, hey its Indian conspiracy, he shouldnt be banned, etc. PCB gave no punishment

Then he was caught with illegal drugs in Dubai airport and was jailed and PCB rushed to help him.

Then finally he influence Amir to fix, with Asif as a senior bowler, there is no way Amir alone would have agreed to fix matches.

So Asif was pardoned not once, not twice, but FOUR different times before fixing was his FIFTH offence.

All the pardons you gave Asif because he was "talented" is what led you to lose Amir too. If PCB had set examples of discipline with Asif right from the beginning, they would have a couple of decades of completely unprofessional and ill disciplined team and Pak cricket team, would have achieved way more.

Maybe there were you're right. Don’t blame him for the akhtar one, akhtar was to blame for hitting someone.

Drug abuse is a different crime. I agree there it’s likely to reoffend. People get addicted to illegal drugs and use drugs to maintain/enhance a sports level.

Fixing is not the same. Harsher penalties and backlash. And once caught illegal bookmakers won’t want to work with you anyway. Second offence is much less likely.

Perhaps you could argue drug use also encourages reoffenders due to the lower penalties associated with it in most sports.

I remember at the time I wasn’t too excited Asif coming back. Didn’t seem worth it. If they had moved on for him then I’d be on board.

I just genuinely believe in second chances. Helping others shine instead of yourself sounds like a better second chance to me, not as selfish and a chance for redemption. Not getting another chance to resume your playing career.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

What I find really funny is some of the same people who claim Bumrah didnt play enough matches or his 215 wickets is not enough for him to be considered a great bowler, are giving a bowler legendary status who has barely 100 wickets in tests. Hilarious.

he is not a legendary bowler by any means, its just nostalgia, a sense of sadness for what we lost and respect for his artistry. He won't make the top 50 bowlers to ever play the game with his record but he has a special place in the hearts of our fans for what could have been.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Myth of Asif is indeed exaggerated.

He was a very skilful bowler with enough pace to push batter back and he had a very short pre-injury good run in 2005-2006. When he came back later he was still skilful but didn't have the yard extra to push batters back. He would bowl dry and to plans but couldn't rise above a flat wicket.

If he hadn't been banned for fixing, with his other bad habits and frail physicality he wouldn't have maintained effectiveness past 2014-15 anyway.

At best he would have ended up 180-190 wkts in 50-55 games at 26-28 avg.

He has a nice highlights reel but in stature he is nowhere near a Shoaib Akhtar whose highlights were compiled on some pretty dead wickets and against some high quality Aus and Ind sides.

Every bowler has a decline, where they get worked out, it is on them to bounce back. Many don't and their careers fade away. Recent generation of Pakistani bowlers have never been able to recover post decline. Asif may have followed the same fate.

Nobody has a time machine, but after seeing, Asif and Amir perform in England, and the way Pakistanis got a decent following during a neutral series V australia played in England, then it is entirely possible England could have became Pakistan's second home rather than UAE. In this hypothetical timeline, Asif would have been an exceptional bowler.

 

[Sachin fan]

Maybe there were you're right. Don’t blame him for the akhtar one, akhtar was to blame for hitting someone.

Drug abuse is a different crime. I agree there it’s likely to reoffend. People get addicted to illegal drugs and use drugs to maintain/enhance a sports level.

Fixing is not the same. Harsher penalties and backlash. And once caught illegal bookmakers won’t want to work with you anyway. Second offence is much less likely.

Perhaps you could argue drug use also encourages reoffenders due to the lower penalties associated with it in most sports.

I remember at the time I wasn’t too excited Asif coming back. Didn’t seem worth it. If they had moved on for him then I’d be on board.

I just genuinely believe in second chances. Helping others shine instead of yourself sounds like a better second chance to me, not as selfish and a chance for redemption. Not getting another chance to resume your playing career.

Has Asif ever shown inclination for helping youngsters? It's a thankless job and most expensive players don't prefer it unless it's a high profile job like national coaching

 

[Golu-m]

he is not a legendary bowler by any means, its just nostalgia, a sense of sadness for what we lost and respect for his artistry. He won't make the top 50 bowlers to ever play the game with his record but he has a special place in the hearts of our fans for what could have been.

You are a quality poster

 

[Golu-m]

Agree.

What I meant was they didn't take many wickets due to not playing enough games. Both had less than 110 Test wickets.

Asif was a 400-500 wickets bowler. So was Shane Bond.

You can’t compare diamond to a stone asif wasn’t even fit to tie shoelaces of shane bond.shane bond was the most talented fast bowler i have ever seen destroying multiple times atg lineups of India and Australia for fun and them asif trundlerwho got whacked umpteen time fixer average bowler, umar gul was better than that overhyped, gloryfied fixer

 

[BunnyRabbit]

They won’t fix or corrupt anyone again. Though it’s natural boards will act like this to them and I can’t blame them. But once you’ve fixed you won’t fix again or be involved. It’s too risky now you’re caught, a second offence and you will be vilified. You’re just grateful for the second chance. Plus I bet no one will want to use you if you’re already outed as a fixer. It’s too dangerous to work with those, these illegal bookies want guys with a clean record.

I’d go so far I’d believe that someone who’s fixed before is probably less likely to fix or corrupt now than players that haven’t been proven yet.

I’m against fixers playing again not because I’m scared of them fixing again. Not even that I want them punished. The issue is if they are welcomed back, these illegal bookmakers will persuade others to fix and then point out even if you get caught you’ll resume your international career. It lowers the risk of fixing. And especially for the right money you can persuade a person to risk a few years of his career. Don’t think it’s a coincidence we still seem to have the most fixing cases even after the trio.

I probably wouldn’t make them head coach. But bowling or batting coach is probably fine. Or even something less like temporary batting/bowling consultant is alright. Asif and even Amir could impart a lot of knowledge to our bowling attack. Their skill and bowling guile is on another level to the others we’ve had since them. Even guys like Shaheen, who will arguably have a better career than them, I think is more reliant on physical attributes more than guile or cunning. Someone like Asif or Amir could probably help someone like that up his game even further.

Don't know man but Asif has been a repeat offender. It's just too risky for any board to employ him I think.