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The importance of Culture?

miandadrules

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I constantly read and hear people making vigorous defences of "their culture" and how they are trying to maintain it.

But societies and cultures are not static entities. How many of you hold the exact same views as your parents?

All cultures have good and bad aspects, some far more than others, so I'm not talking about moral equivalence.

What are your views on the importance of culture and maintaining its "purity"?

For me it's a redundant way of thinking and hinders development both on a micro and macro level.
 
I think people should respect their culture and try to preserve it for the posterity as it gives them a sense of identity and pride which is vital for us as a social species.
But that doesn't mean we start endorsing every single thing related to our culture as there are some vile practices too that are part of every society and one must strive to eradicate them so as to fit with the changing times.The only good culture is the one which modifies itself with the needs of time and is accommodating and flexible enough.
And one that doesn't , dies a slow painful death.
 
I never really got the culture of my parents, it felt alien to me. Growing up among whites where the Asians were very much in the minority I was (and am) heavily influenced by Anglo culture. My parents influence was probably more influential in values, like strong family ethic, hard work, clean living, some of which I didn't really live up to but which I admired nonetheless.
 
I think people should respect their culture and try to preserve it for the posterity as it gives them a sense of identity and pride which is vital for us as a social species.
But that doesn't mean we start endorsing every single thing related to our culture as there are some vile practices too that are part of every society and one must strive to eradicate them so as to fit with the changing times.The only good culture is the one which modifies itself with the needs of time and is accommodating and flexible enough.
And one that doesn't , dies a slow painful death.

So in essence to beat our tribalistic drums?
 
So in essence to beat our tribalistic drums?

I did mention removing of harmful practices , didn't I?
Yar life would be incredibly boring if we just followed every single effin thing with a rational approach.Sometimes you just gotta let loose.
For instance I might not be a practicing Hindu but I like celebrating the festivals which are all part of my culture with family and friends.
I'm proud of my heritage and the land from where I come from.But that doesn't mean I start overlooking the social ills and walk around with a superior attitude of "mine is the best one".
Varies with people I guess.
 
Culture confines you, It chokes your freedom and creativity.

I feel so free spirited in Dubai and New York due to diversity of people there. Nobody has time or energy to judge you.

In Dubai, I never bother to correct any local when they think I am an Arab. I return As-Salaam-Alaikum with smile. I am an Indian, Punjabi, Jatt, a Sikh.
 
It shouldn't be imposed,but people should be educated about their culture including the practices that are now not a part of it.

Its important because it also creates an identity,humans like to belong somewhere.
 
I did mention removing of harmful practices , didn't I?
Yar life would be incredibly boring if we just followed every single effin thing with a rational approach.Sometimes you just gotta let loose.
For instance I might not be a practicing Hindu but I like celebrating the festivals which are all part of my culture with family and friends.
I'm proud of my heritage and the land from where I come from.But that doesn't mean I start overlooking the social ills and walk around with a superior attitude of "mine is the best one".
Varies with people I guess.

I think you've misunderstood me.

I'm not asking that we all follow a monotone way of life, far from it. I believe in experiencing and learning from others, as you have stated.

It's the issue of preserving and taking pride in it which I feel is a remnant of our tribalistic past. You may feel taking pride is innocuous but it can lead to more extreme forms, where people feel they have to maintain certain aspects at all costs and lead to xenophobia and discrimination.

Also, culture isn't static and it's great for us to maintain the good aspects but often when we put so much emphasis on preserving we inevitably maintain the bad too.

In 2017 to still maintain our tribal customs and not see cultures as shared and evolving seems counter productive.

I'd rather see us as a human race rather than "us" and "them".

But I wasn't attacking your stance just trying to dig a little deeper in to the rationale.
 
I think you've misunderstood me.

I'm not asking that we all follow a monotone way of life, far from it. I believe in experiencing and learning from others, as you have stated.

It's the issue of preserving and taking pride in it which I feel is a remnant of our tribalistic past. You may feel taking pride is innocuous but it can lead to more extreme forms, where people feel they have to maintain certain aspects at all costs and lead to xenophobia and discrimination.

Also, culture isn't static and it's great for us to maintain the good aspects but often when we put so much emphasis on preserving we inevitably maintain the bad too.

In 2017 to still maintain our tribal customs and not see cultures as shared and evolving seems counter productive.

I'd rather see us as a human race rather than "us" and "them".

But I wasn't attacking your stance just trying to dig a little deeper in to the rationale.

This is unfortunately true.Take caste system for instance.It's hard to draw a line in such cases.
 
It's cool.

Please allow any personal comments directed at me to stand. I'd rather we discuss them openly and in a civil manner.

Nothing civil about name-calling. I'd rather everyone paid heed to the warning to keep the thread clean.
 
I never really got the culture of my parents, it felt alien to me. Growing up among whites where the Asians were very much in the minority I was (and am) heavily influenced by Anglo culture. My parents influence was probably more influential in values, like strong family ethic, hard work, clean living, some of which I didn't really live up to but which I admired nonetheless.

So your cultural perspective evolved but you certainly maintained the great aspects of the culture of your parents. Even though you say you didn't live up to them you appreciate them and will more than likely introduce your children too.

But your parents didn't impose them on you either. However, many in this world from every corner will unwaveringly hold on to a value system simply because it is their culture and hence must be preserved at all costs.

Ever listened to a white nationalist on immigration or caste discrimination in the subcontinent?
 
This is unfortunately true.Take caste system for instance.It's hard to draw a line in such cases.

You beat me to it. I just posted the same.

Unfortunately, the man in your avatar fell in to this trap in his later years.
 
You beat me to it. I just posted the same.

Unfortunately, the man in your avatar fell in to this trap in his later years.
You talking about the islamophobic rants and Iraq invasion which he supported?
Yeah I guess regular cigarettes and alcohol does that to you :))
 
You talking about the islamophobic rants and Iraq invasion which he supported?
Yeah I guess regular cigarettes and alcohol does that to you :))

An intellectual heavyweight and incredibly articulate who decended in to demogoary in later life.

Seems to have given in to his fears in the last decade of his life.
 
An intellectual heavyweight and incredibly articulate who decended in to demogoary in later life.

Seems to have given in to his fears in the last decade of his life.
Yeah that was sad to see.Though I still enjoyed God is not great which came a few years before he died.
 
Let's try again.

Why do you feel I am ashamed of my roots?

Let's not as it would break the forum rules.


If you can expand and explain this..

"
For me it's a redundant way of thinking and hinders development both on a micro and macro level."

I might offer something in return.
 
Let's not as it would break the forum rules.


If you can expand and explain this..

"
For me it's a redundant way of thinking and hinders development both on a micro and macro level."

I might offer something in return.

More like you can't substantiate a single statement and justify your ad hominem attacks.


Simple.

To hold on to antiquated ways of thinking and behaviours under the guise of maintaining ones culture regardless of their effects.
 
More like you can't substantiate a single statement and justify your ad hominem attacks.


Simple.

To hold on to antiquated ways of thinking and behaviours under the guise of maintaining ones culture regardless of their effects.

Ironic. You seem to be struggling yourself to substantiate what you write. You have failed to explain how holding on to ones culture 'hinders development'.

Do you have any examples or should I just take your word for it?
 
Most of the times your culture is defined by your religion.

So culture is important to most folks in this world. That is what they are brought up in and that is where they feel the most comfortable. Your language, your diet, your clothes are all dictated by your culture.
 
There are most certainly many elements of the sub-continental culture that India and Pakistan need to collectively get rid off. The biggest of them being the concept of dowry which leads to the death and torture of millions of girls, if not more.
 
Ironic. You seem to be struggling yourself to substantiate what you write. You have failed to explain how holding on to ones culture 'hinders development'.

Do you have any examples or should I just take your word for it?

Even taking in to account your obtuse nature it's alarming that you fail to comprehend the most basic of concepts.

A few examples have already been given in this thread, such as the attitudes in the west against Muslim migration, the cultural attitudes in the East towards women, cultural practices such as caste discrimination, and discrimination based on sexual orientation, to name but a few.

Or to a less extreme extent the practice of marrying in to ones own ethnicity because of wanting to maintain "cultural purity". It seems redundant to list every single permutation but if you are still struggling to grasp the context then maybe we can break it down for you further.

As to how it hinders development. For people and societies to develop and grow you need a constant flow and exchange of ideas. Unless, you're stating that your culture is perfect and requires no further refinement.
 
So your cultural perspective evolved but you certainly maintained the great aspects of the culture of your parents. Even though you say you didn't live up to them you appreciate them and will more than likely introduce your children too.

But your parents didn't impose them on you either. However, many in this world from every corner will unwaveringly hold on to a value system simply because it is their culture and hence must be preserved at all costs.

Ever listened to a white nationalist on immigration or caste discrimination in the subcontinent?

This is true, my parents were pretty much grounded in their own principles, but they were the type who adapted pretty well to their surroundings so there wasn't much conflict. One thing which always puzzles me about immigrants in general is why they move to a place with a totally different culture if they want to recreate what they left behind. But then I'm of the opinion it's only a problem if you want to make it one. In most situations you can take the good parts from any culture if you live in a multicultural society.
 
This is true, my parents were pretty much grounded in their own principles, but they were the type who adapted pretty well to their surroundings so there wasn't much conflict. One thing which always puzzles me about immigrants in general is why they move to a place with a totally different culture if they want to recreate what they left behind. But then I'm of the opinion it's only a problem if you want to make it one. In most situations you can take the good parts from any culture if you live in a multicultural society.

I think you're are being harsh on migrants. Most, especially in Europe are economic migrants with very little collateral moving to a society that is completely different. They don't have the finances nor the resources to relocate to any area and will initially move to lower socioeconomic areas out of necessity, which will invariably have others in the same situation. In such conditions it is natural for groups of people to gravitate to those who share cultural traits.

Problems occur when these societies become insular and thus are cut off from others. This is compounded when future generations are then contained within this insular environment.

This isn't exclusive to migrants, in particular in Europe, where the natives are also ghettoised as result of white flight.

All of which leads to intolerance all around.
 
Maintaining cultural purity is absolute BS in that it's simply an excuse for holding on to antiquated religious and cultural practices that can't be justified otherwise so the cultural purity card is played to bring people's emotions into play. The most glaring example of this is the religious right in Pakistan shutting down any discussion on honor killings, domestic violence and child marriage by claiming that these things have been part of our culture for thousands of years and we can't change them to, and I quote, appease the west. There is no rational justification for any of these practices but as soon as you play the culture/religion (the two are inseparable in Pakistan) card, all discussion is shut down immediately as the handful of progressive voices are drowned out by the outrage of the unwashed masses.
 
I think languages, dialects, arts should be preserved. Other than that, don't see anything in culture which needs to be maintained, especially if it does not subscribe to present day moralities.
 
Most of the times your culture is defined by your religion.

So culture is important to most folks in this world. That is what they are brought up in and that is where they feel the most comfortable. Your language, your diet, your clothes are all dictated by your culture.

That most people fail to grasp that their religious beliefs are geographically specific is indicative of their parochial view.
 
Even taking in to account your obtuse nature it's alarming that you fail to comprehend the most basic of concepts.

A few examples have already been given in this thread, such as the attitudes in the west against Muslim migration, the cultural attitudes in the East towards women, cultural practices such as caste discrimination, and discrimination based on sexual orientation, to name but a few.

Or to a less extreme extent the practice of marrying in to ones own ethnicity because of wanting to maintain "cultural purity". It seems redundant to list every single permutation but if you are still struggling to grasp the context then maybe we can break it down for you further.

As to how it hinders development. For people and societies to develop and grow you need a constant flow and exchange of ideas. Unless, you're stating that your culture is perfect and requires no further refinement.

You struggle with the basic concept of taking the good and leaving the bad. I suppose people like you only look at the negatives because it helps you consolidate your reasoning for being embarrased bought up in such a culture. :)
 
You struggle with the basic concept of taking the good and leaving the bad. I suppose people like you only look at the negatives because it helps you consolidate your reasoning for being embarrased bought up in such a culture. :)

Once again why don't you substantiate where I have said that you shouldn't pick the good?

In fact this very specific point was made in this thread. So, why have you failed to comprehend it?
 
You struggle with the basic concept of taking the good and leaving the bad. I suppose people like you only look at the negatives because it helps you consolidate your reasoning for being embarrased bought up in such a culture. :)

Also, why don't you once again present a single statement that would suggest I am embarrassed by anything?

You're quick to throw accusations in the hope to obfuscate but why don't you have the courage of your convictions and back it up?
 
Once again why don't you substantiate where I have said that you shouldn't pick the good?

In fact this very specific point was made in this thread. So, why have you failed to comprehend it?

You have only pointed out the negatives but not mentioned anything positive which can be taken from culture.

Why don't you tell me what good you have taken and what bad you have rejected? Let's see if I can comprehend this. :)
 
You have only pointed out the negatives but not mentioned anything positive which can be taken from culture.

Why don't you tell me what good you have taken and what bad you have rejected? Let's see if I can comprehend this. :)

Read the thread.
 
Also, why don't you once again present a single statement that would suggest I am embarrassed by anything?

You're quick to throw accusations in the hope to obfuscate but why don't you have the courage of your convictions and back it up?


It's my opinion based on reading your views. I've met plenty of people like yourself who feel they have been illuminated by discovering something which nobody else could ever discover regarding their culture and who adapt some sort of superiority complex within. To me such people are just self deluded with their own importance and posses a type of arrogance and self hatred. Their is a common term for such people which I wont mention again.
 
It's my opinion based on reading your views. I've met plenty of people like yourself who feel they have been illuminated by discovering something which nobody else could ever discover regarding their culture and who adapt some sort of superiority complex within. To me such people are just self deluded with their own importance and posses a type of arrogance and self hatred. Their is a common term for such people which I wont mention again.

So basically you can't provide a single thing?

Where have I even hinted that I am superior to "my culture"?

Please show how I have exhibited "self-hatred".

You're nonsense isn't going to wash with me. So, for once be a man and back up your words.

"I think", "I know", ad hominem attack, mock a person persecuted and a smilie, which is basically every one of your posts isn't proof of anything other than your ignorance.
 
Maintaining cultural purity is absolute BS in that it's simply an excuse for holding on to antiquated religious and cultural practices that can't be justified otherwise so the cultural purity card is played to bring people's emotions into play. The most glaring example of this is the religious right in Pakistan shutting down any discussion on honor killings, domestic violence and child marriage by claiming that these things have been part of our culture for thousands of years and we can't change them to, and I quote, appease the west. There is no rational justification for any of these practices but as soon as you play the culture/religion (the two are inseparable in Pakistan) card, all discussion is shut down immediately as the handful of progressive voices are drowned out by the outrage of the unwashed masses.

I can imagine if you are in Pakistan you are probably closed off to other cultures and end up suffering pains of Islamic rituals only. Over here in Britain though our experience of culture also seems to include Indian leftovers. So you still get some shameless folk sending sweets round on the birth of a baby boy. I have no idea where this stemmed from, but it doesn't take much to see that female infanticide which has a rich history in India is linked to the same culture. Absolutely sickening that people still want to hold onto this rubbish after two generations in the UK.
 
I can imagine if you are in Pakistan you are probably closed off to other cultures and end up suffering pains of Islamic rituals only. Over here in Britain though our experience of culture also seems to include Indian leftovers. So you still get some shameless folk sending sweets round on the birth of a baby boy. I have no idea where this stemmed from, but it doesn't take much to see that female infanticide which has a rich history in India is linked to the same culture. Absolutely sickening that people still want to hold onto this rubbish after two generations in the UK.

Having lived in Britain for a few years, I'm acutely aware of the phenomenon of immigrants and their descendants holding on to antiquated cultural practices and I concur wholeheartedly that it needs to be curtailed, be it distributing sweets at the birth of a boy or marrying cousins. What I don't see is the need to quote my post since what you said has nothing to do with what I said.
 
Having lived in Britain for a few years, I'm acutely aware of the phenomenon of immigrants and their descendants holding on to antiquated cultural practices and I concur wholeheartedly that it needs to be curtailed, be it distributing sweets at the birth of a boy or marrying cousins. What I don't see is the need to quote my post since what you said has nothing to do with what I said.

Your posts are usually exclusively Pakistan and more explicitly Islamocentric, and I can understand that which I made clear in my reply. I was just contrasting it with my experience where our community still seems to have quite a lot of baggage shared with Indians. I was aware you spent a couple of years in Britain but assumed your experience was limited to university life. So just sharing some wider experiences of culture to compliment your own.
 
Your posts are usually exclusively Pakistan and more explicitly Islamocentric, and I can understand that which I made clear in my reply. I was just contrasting it with my experience where our community still seems to have quite a lot of baggage shared with Indians. I was aware you spent a couple of years in Britain but assumed your experience was limited to university life. So just sharing some wider experiences of culture to compliment your own.
I would have liked it had you used south asian or subcontinental instead of Indian as these supposed 'problems' are common to the entire subcontinent and not exclusively to India.
But chalo at least this time you didn't bring up the Wembley temple thing.
 
It is good to respect other cultures whilst retaining your own. Those who try to be someone they are not are constantly mocked as suffering from an inferiority complex. This is why the Arabism of Pakistan and it's culture greatly offends and concerns me.
 
I would have liked it had you used south asian or subcontinental instead of Indian as these supposed 'problems' are common to the entire subcontinent and not exclusively to India.
But chalo at least this time you didn't bring up the Wembley temple thing.

Although the Wembley temple thing would be quite pertinent to the topic now you mention it.
 
It's my opinion based on reading your views. I've met plenty of people like yourself who feel they have been illuminated by discovering something which nobody else could ever discover regarding their culture and who adapt some sort of superiority complex within. To me such people are just self deluded with their own importance and posses a type of arrogance and self hatred. Their is a common term for such people which I wont mention again.

MR KingKhan
I dont know what are you going on about. If you read the OP, i dont understand where are you coming up with these accusations.
 
If there are dangers in imputing a too greater emphasis and importance on culture, I would also suggest that South Asian history has tended to point to the reverse as well: the dangers inherent in a state denying the importance of, and demonstrating a discomfort with, particular cultures. There is tension between the particular and the universal, and often in the name of the latter, states in South Asia have attempted to efface the former.

To illustrate the point in more detail, let’s start with ‘Allama’ Iqbal. For Iqbal it was clear that the kohl in his eyelids was that of the dust of Mecca and Najf:

Khara na kar saka mujhe jalwa danis-i-farang
Soorma hai meri ankhon ka khak-i-Madina wa Najf

In the 1930s, Iqbal sought increasingly to find an autonomous cultural space for the Muslims of India, proclaiming the right of a “communal entity” to “retain its private individuality.” Iqbal has at times being criticised for sentimentality and a Muslim chauvinism. On the one hand this chimes with what miandadrules warns against, of a defence of culture sliding into a crude isolationism. Yet on the other hand, it could certainly be argued that his clarion call for a particular Muslim space was at least partly engendered by the threat of what he saw as homogenising claims of Indian nationalism, which left little space for a Muslim cultural identity.

Indian nationalism was partly inflected by a Hindu cultural symbolism. But there was another strand, influenced by European enlightenment which emphasised universal values. This certainly downplayed Hindu cultural identity, yet it also denied the problems of cultural difference altogether. Nehru had famously declared that he looked through a telescope to spot Hindu-Muslim differences but was unable to see any. A Muslim cultural identity existed only as a surrogate for the narrow class interests of reactionary Muslim leadership. This represented a failure to take seriously issues of cultural identity. Cultural difference and distinctiveness could not be merely wished away. As historians have argued, from the 1920s Indian nationalism altered from an idea of coexistence of community and national identities to the primacy of the latter over the former. Nationalism became impatient with cultural difference, but this only encouraged the sentiments such as those Iqbal expressed. Rabindranath Tagore, seemed closer to the mark than Nehru, when he wrote:



"When there is genuine difference, it is only by expressing and restraining the difference in its proper place that it is possible to fashion unity. Unity cannot be achieved by issuing legal fiats that everybody is one.”

With the coming of independence we have seen both the states of India and Pakistan demonstrating an impatience with cultural identity based on the region. Contrary to the Lahore Resolution of 1940, the early state managers in Pakistan were deeply suspicious of ‘provincialism’. Here Jinnah speak in 1948:

“We are now all Pakistanis–not Baluchis, Pathans, Sindhis, Bengalis, Punjabis and so on–and as Pakistanis we must feet behave and act, and we should be proud to be known as Pakistanis and nothing else.”

This was not an idea of coexistence of the national with the regional but a denial of the latter. There was also to be one language - Urdu. Far from placating regional sentiment, this only fired demands for autonomy from in particular East Pakistan. To be fair to the early state managers we should not lose sight of the troubled beginning and insecure foundations of the new state. Few states have emerged with the problems that Pakistan did. There was the enormous refugee population that needed to be rehabilitated. There was the parlous state of the economy with little industrial inheritance and no integration. Government machinery had to be constructed anew. Conflict with India emerged soon after independence. Nationalism was only nascent - in Muslim majority areas the Pakistan idea emerged late in the colonial day. There was also the curious fact of a nation split into two wings separated by hostile territory. It is not therefore surprising that the leaders emphasised unity as they were conscious how fragile Pakistan’s foundations were. But in the long run, denial of regionally based cultural identities only contributed to the secession of East Pakistan. The centripetal stance of the state at the centre was matched by a centrifugal response in the region.

In the case of India there too was an early reluctance to accept ‘narrow’ identities. As Judith Brown, Nehru’s perceptive biographer, notes:

“Increasingly he [Nehru] deplored what he saw as the persistence of narrow loyalties of caste, region and community, even among younger people, and criticised this has evidence of India’s backwardness. Yet the enduring legitimacy of the new nation state would depend on the state’s ability to recognise and manage such loyalties and identities…and to use its resources to convince people that the new India was worth belonging to. Nehru seems not to have recognised the significance of political management in the ongoing work of building the nation, or the importance of political skills associated with ensuring state responsiveness to sectional demands.”

If there are problems with taking cultural defence too far, and certainly ideas of cultural purity are misplaced and deeply problematic, there is also the contrary danger of wishing away cultural difference and insisting on a universal that leaves little space for individuals particular identities.
 
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