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The magic of Duckworth Lewis

KP From India

Tape Ball Regular
Joined
Jun 30, 2017
Runs
464
Team A- 158/4 in 17 overs
Team B- 169-7 in 17 overs
Net result- Team A is the winner
Great method!!!!!
 
Australian innings was paced for 20 overs whereas indian innings was paced for 17 overs wickets effective per over differs thats why runs effective per over differs. Otherside of coin limit india to 4 wickets as only 4 aus wickets have fallen that would be serious stupidness
 
I understand this but the game is already 20 overs, how much more cut in the game we want?
Either play full 20 overs or call of the game.
This method always looks stupid in rain affected game irrespective which team wins/loses.
 
Team A- 158/4 in 17 overs
Team B- 169-7 in 17 overs
Net result- Team A is the winner
Great method!!!!!

Among all methods used, DWL is the most accurate one hence it has lasted for so long.

Today, IND’s total was actually easier because DWL don’t consider the bowling chart (which bowlers are left with overs). AUS was 158/4 in 16’1 over - which had Kuldeep’s 4 overs, my hunch is in last 23 balls, they would have scored at least 35 - that’s target of 194 in 20 overs; which is much tougher than 173 in 17.
 
Dl method is good for 50 overs it can end up with some odd data for T-20 it’s still the best method so stick to it till there bud something better
 
D/L works better for odi.

But not an excuse though. We should have had won. We knew the target beforehand and middle order failed (not surprising) again.
 
Among all methods used, DWL is the most accurate one hence it has lasted for so long.

Today, IND’s total was actually easier because DWL don’t consider the bowling chart (which bowlers are left with overs). AUS was 158/4 in 16’1 over - which had Kuldeep’s 4 overs, my hunch is in last 23 balls, they would have scored at least 35 - that’s target of 194 in 20 overs; which is much tougher than 173 in 17.

How is less than 10 an over easier than 10 an over?
 
Australian innings was paced for 20 overs whereas indian innings was paced for 17 overs wickets effective per over differs thats why runs effective per over differs.

Indian bowling spells were paced for 20 overs, so is that taken into account? I mean Krunal Pandya wouldn't bowled 4 costly overs upfront.
 
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D/L works better for odi.

But not an excuse though. We should have had won. We knew the target beforehand and middle order failed (not surprising) again.

Actually it's the top order which failed today. Middle order is what brought back into the game. When Kohli got out it we needed 80 off 7 overs. The only reason we came close was because Dhawan & the middle order scored runs.
 
Indian bowling spells were paced for 20 overs, so is that taken into account? I mean Krunal Pandya wouldn't bowled 4 costly overs upfront.

That's a very good point. Bumrah and Bhuvi only got to bowl 3 overs each.

In a 17 over game, at least one of those 2 would have bowled 4 overs. Krunal would definitely not have bowled more than 3.
 
How is less than 10 an over easier than 10 an over?

Basic cricket - you have to chase 20 extra as well. Otherwise straight line method will always favour the chasing side.
 
[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] what do you think about this point though?

It would have been a factor if bowling side (2nd innings), were allowed to off set their bowling weak link - that’s say 4 bowlers bowling 16 overs & 5th one just one to complete 17.

For AUS’s innings - no one knew when rain is going to stop the game hence Kohli finished his weak link ASAP. In some ODI, where rain is threatening, I have seen captains not bowling their weak link & complete main bowlers’ overs; T20 is too short for that.
 
Kohli won the toss not Finch.Also the momentum was with Aussies . Bhuvaneswar or Bumrah would not matter much.
Knowing the target plays a big role.Conditional probability
 
Wickets left in hand have value- especially when only 4 down and innings suddenly cut short before the big kick off.

A chaser knows the new equation from the start.

Is this really hard for you to understand?
 
Bhai, thread about flaws in the stupid method, not about the end result. We have beaten them enough times in T20 outside India.
Such a bakwaas method thrown SA out of WC 1992 since then I am following this method. Nz were once made to chase 145 in 22 overs when SL had 250 odd in 50 overs.In 2009, when NZ toured Ind it was 38 over game and they scored 12-14 more runs than Ind, still they lost by 15 odd runs. All these calculations are beyond my comprehension.
In T20, in first place, we have only 20 overs. Whats the point of reducing 3 or 5 overs irrespective of match outcome? It would be unfair one way the other.
 
Nah, but didnt understand D/L terminalogy even after putting in all my mathematics and statistic knowledge till date.
 
That's a very good point. Bumrah and Bhuvi only got to bowl 3 overs each.

In a 17 over game, at least one of those 2 would have bowled 4 overs. Krunal would definitely not have bowled more than 3.


Spot on.

Aus got to face two less overs from India's top two bowlers.
India got to face the full quota from Aus's top two bowlers.

That's a big advantage to have in the shortest format of the game.
 
Bhai, thread about flaws in the stupid method, not about the end result. We have beaten them enough times in T20 outside India.
Such a bakwaas method thrown SA out of WC 1992 since then I am following this method. Nz were once made to chase 145 in 22 overs when SL had 250 odd in 50 overs.In 2009, when NZ toured Ind it was 38 over game and they scored 12-14 more runs than Ind, still they lost by 15 odd runs. All these calculations are beyond my comprehension.
In T20, in first place, we have only 20 overs. Whats the point of reducing 3 or 5 overs irrespective of match outcome? It would be unfair one way the other.

I don't think d/l was used in RSA 1992. That was even horrible than d/l.
 
Bhai, thread about flaws in the stupid method, not about the end result. We have beaten them enough times in T20 outside India.
Such a bakwaas method thrown SA out of WC 1992 since then I am following this method. Nz were once made to chase 145 in 22 overs when SL had 250 odd in 50 overs.In 2009, when NZ toured Ind it was 38 over game and they scored 12-14 more runs than Ind, still they lost by 15 odd runs. All these calculations are beyond my comprehension.
In T20, in first place, we have only 20 overs. Whats the point of reducing 3 or 5 overs irrespective of match outcome? It would be unfair one way the other.


Seems like a perfectly reasonable example to me. 250 in a 50 over game is a bit under par in most places, just like 145 would be in a 22 over game. The 1992 world cup didn't have Duckworth-Lewis.
 
:))) DL being used agaisnt SA in 1992???? I have heard enuff
 
Such cry babies! You lost fair and square to a C grade Australian side which got it's *** whopped by Pakistan and South Africa in the last few months. Take it on the chin and just move on.
 
It is what it is. We can't complain when it goes against us but turn a blind eye when it favours us.
 
My bad, but whatever calculations, they were rubbish, 22 off 13 and then 21 off 1?

:)))

Lets clear some things here mate

That 1992 south Africa game, DL wasnt used. Infact DL method did not even existed back then. It was after that match they had to create the DL method.

As for todays game.

No one knew before hand that Australia wont be able to bat for the complete overs. Hence, when ever rain happens and overs are shorten to an extent that innings have to be ended abruptly, scores are added to the total. This is done because there could be sitaution where a team batted slowly till the 17th over and wanted to attack later in the innings. Thus, scores are adjusted.

When India came to bat, they knew that they would bat for 17 overs. There were no abrupt ends.
 
:)))

Lets clear some things here mate

That 1992 south Africa game, DL wasnt used. Infact DL method did not even existed back then. It was after that match they had to create the DL method.

As for todays game.

No one knew before hand that Australia wont be able to bat for the complete overs. Hence, when ever rain happens and overs are shorten to an extent that innings have to be ended abruptly, scores are added to the total. This is done because there could be sitaution where a team batted slowly till the 17th over and wanted to attack later in the innings. Thus, scores are adjusted.

When India came to bat, they knew that they would bat for 17 overs. There were no abrupt ends.

I agree. We are chasing. We knew the overs, and we knew the target.

Unless rain abrupted again, which does make things complicated, there should be no excuse.

We had 17 overs and we had to score 174. Simple calculation from team India's pov.
 
When did I turned a blind eye when it favours us?
IMO when NZ came Ind, 2009 they scored more runs than us inn38 overs, so statistically they should have won the game.
It would have been 4-1 instead of 5-0 to them.
I am on this forum since 6 months but following this method since ages.
 
The DL method is one of the best statistical methods that exists in sports.

Before criticizing it, atleast do bother to understand its concept first.

Its not some lalooo method. Been made after proper research.
 
All that is okay, but what is the point of shortening 3 or 5 overs in already a 20 over game? Irrespective of any side winning by 100 runs or loses by 100 runs?
 
The DL method is one of the best statistical methods that exists in sports.

Before criticizing it, atleast do bother to understand its concept first.

Its not some lalooo method. Been made after proper research.

DLS actually gets a lot of criticism from all corners. A lot!

But it's the best we have so I'm okay with it.
 
Can you suggest an alternate method? For example, in todays match what would you have suggested after the rain break?
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">India scoring more than Australia yet losing. Australia ke score par laga GST bhaari pad gaya. But a good thrilling game to start the series.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AUSvIND?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AUSvIND</a></p>— Virender Sehwag (@virendersehwag) <a href="https://twitter.com/virendersehwag/status/1065213023156137984?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 21, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Here what we are assuming is the team knows the target from the start, hence they have all the advantage. Is it always the case?
 
Maybe but I am not sold on the popular opinion that chasing team always has an advantage in a rain curtailed game since they know the target. If say your side has to chase 330 in 50 overs are you in with any extra advantage?
 
Here what we are assuming is the team knows the target from the start, hence they have all the advantage. Is it always the case?

??? how is it advantage????
I'm saving my wicekt till the 17th over, but in the last 3 overs, who knows i could attack for 15+

THe runs compensated are just mere 10-15 runs.

Please do some thinking regarding this plz
 
It is alright. India deserved to lose this match because of their shoddy fielding. A win here would have covered up all the deficiencies that India displayed in this match.
 
India was lucky that it rained TBH. Maxwell and Stoinis were set to score 200+ easily if it hadn't rained. Indians underperformed and Aussies played out of their skins. Kohli looks under pressure. Will be a great series
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">India scoring more than Australia yet losing. Australia ke score par laga GST bhaari pad gaya. But a good thrilling game to start the series.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AUSvIND?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AUSvIND</a></p>— Virender Sehwag (@virendersehwag) <a href="https://twitter.com/virendersehwag/status/1065213023156137984?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 21, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Clearly not the brightest cricketer we've seen of recent times. I loved watching his batting but unfortunately these days he needs to grasp the concept of think before you speak.
 
That's a very good point. Bumrah and Bhuvi only got to bowl 3 overs each.

In a 17 over game, at least one of those 2 would have bowled 4 overs. Krunal would definitely not have bowled more than 3.

Khaleel ahmad was going at 14 and billy stanlake at 9 both bowled only 3 overs each. Technology has its owns pros and cons.
 
It is advantageous if the wicket remains almost same throughout? What if wicket is slowing down every over and batting first is relatively easy. Will it help chasing side to only know the target where Dravid can become Kumble with the ball?
 
Khaleel ahmad was going at 14 and billy stanlake at 9 both bowled only 3 overs each. Technology has its owns pros and cons.

That was due to a human error because Finch miscalculated the number of overs his bowlers had bowled. It had nothing to do with Duckworth Lewis.

Anyway, I'm not against DL/S. It's the best system we currently have even though it has its faults.
 
What about those chasing targets where wicket will become worse after every over and team batting first has relatively better conditions to bat?
Will knowing the target help the chasing team if they know that Dravid can look Murali with ball in 2 nd innings?
 
It is advantageous if the wicket remains almost same throughout? What if wicket is slowing down every over and batting first is relatively easy. Will it help chasing side to only know the target where Dravid can become Kumble with the ball?

There is no alternative for a complete game, therefore DWL (or any other method) is just to complete the game, otherwise we'll have to abandoned an ODI game even if it's washed out after 99'5 overs, with less than 7 runs at stake.

IICRC, there had been 4 methods used so far - in olden days, in ENG, they used to carry the game (in case of weather interruptions) to 2nd day, which isn't possible in modern days of packed schedules of broadcasters. Also, it's not fair for the spectators and organization costs increases massively.

First mathematical method used was straight line method - chasing team's target is set at the rate 1st team scored for the number of overs they are to bat. This is the worst of the methods - in a remotely even contest, side batting 2nd will win 100% times. This rule was exposed in 1988 WSC 3rd Final at SCG. On a dry wicket, AUS batted first and were like 240-3 in 40 overs, then rain came for 4 hours ...... WIN's target was set 121 in 20 overs and they blasted it. Richi Benaud went crazy with the rule and I completely agree with him - AUS could have scored 319 that day, and WIN would have been chasing at 6.4 for 50 overs on a dry surface against 3 spinners .... instead they were given an asking rate of 6.0, for 20 overs, on a wet out field and soaked ball.

Then, ICC changed the rule which was used in 1992 WC - thanks God that, it was exposed soon and replaced immediately after WC. That rule was too skewed to side batting first - they used to curtail the least scoring overs (& runs) for a rain curtailed game. For example, take that SAF-ENG game - SAF bowled 2 maidens (0 runs), so, when the game restarted with 2 overs lost to rain, SAF lost 2 overs but target wasn't reduced. Same equation cost IND the Gabba game - they lost by 1 run (to AUS), when 3 overs were curtailed, but target reduced by 2 (AUS's least scoring overs were 0, 1 & 1). In fact, had the game between PAK-ENG (Adelaide, PAK all-out for 74) went for 20 overs for a result, ENG could have been screwed - their target for 20 overs would have been still something like 74 (bowled 10-12 maidens and PAK was all-out inside 35 over)!!!!

Then, they came with a statistical model which considers wickets at hand (or lost), and trends (of contemporary game); and they project a possible 1st innings total for a given situation, then pro-rate the revised target, which is subject to wickets again for the chasing side (if it's interrupted again in between). Also, DWL method allows possible maximum overs - today IND batted 17 overs in response to 16'1 overs; in any other method, their target would have set for 16 overs (only 1 over in case of T20, but in ODI it's a factor).

It's not perfect, but by far the best method. You can check it yourself - take few close games (from past, result know) and run DWL calculation (it's available in net) for different points of time (say after 10, 25 & 35 overs of both innings) - you'll see their projections are remarkably close for most games.
 
Chasing or defending in a rain curtailed game has its own benifits and drawbacks.
Its like bishop and knight having different advantages and disadvantages depending on their positioning on the board with both can be poor in redundunt position.
If wicket will remain almost simillar throughout, then team chasing has an advantage but if wicket is slowing down or holding in the 2 nd half may not be advantegeous even if you know the target.
 
D/L has never worked well for T20s.

The logarithms have to be rejigged for this format.
 
All that is okay, but what is the point of shortening 3 or 5 overs in already a 20 over game? Irrespective of any side winning by 100 runs or loses by 100 runs?

Because the alternative is cancelling the game and getting no cricket?
 
Lovely stuff from the DLS method.

So basically, yesterday had the game been reduced to 20 overs with the score that was already scored. The target would had been 180 off 20 overs.

Right now, 50 overs completed. The two same batters playing didnt get out and got a score of 356. Now DLS showing if this game is reduced to 20 overs, target will be 187.

Massive credit to the system, that is very accurate. Stats never lie
 
The International Cricket Council (ICC) has expressed its sorrow at the death of Frank Duckworth, co-creator of the Duckworth-Lewis-Stern (DLS) method that is used for regulating targets in weather-affected limited overs games.

Duckworth, 84, who was a consultant statistician with the ICC until 2014, passed on Friday.

ICC General Manager – Cricket Operations, Wasim Khan, condoled Duckworth’s death and acknowledged his contribution to the game.

Wasim Khan: “Frank was a top statistician who was respected by peers as well as the wider cricket fraternity.

The DLS method that he co-created has stood the test of time and we have continued to use it in international cricket more than two decades after its inception.

“Frank’s contribution to the game has been immense and the world of cricket is poorer with his death. We send our condolences to his family and friends.”

Duckworth was appointed Member of the Order of the British Empire (MBE) in 2010.
 
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