The new income tax regime is made to kill Pakistan's middle class

[SportsWarrior]

Coming back to the thread topic, how do common Pakistanis see these tax hikes? do you have any support groups which sensitizes citizen on importance of paying taxes? I volunteered for a small NGO in India where we would go to areas where there are large tax non-compliance and hold street meetings. we would try to interact with localities to understand why there is a resistance to paying taxes? any experiences worth sharing? Funny part with these proposed taxes is that the Pakistani government already agrees it will do nothing to improve the fiscal deficit. I don't understand how you can impose so much higher taxes and still not improve your fiscal deficit by one bit

 

[SportsWarrior]

After reading some of the excellent debates from [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION], his views are very much similar to lot of educated folks in India. I am talking about lot of engineers/doctors who went abroad spent considerable time their but returned back to India due to either personal or career goals. They are very critical of people who leave the country but find solace in criticizing the people who decides to stay back and work and pay taxes in India. And i agree 100% with them. Although i understand the concern and nostalgia that the non residents express finally the country is made or broken by those individuals who decides to stay and work for their country. I have been fortunate enough to be associated with few ideals driven individuals who gave up their personal growth opportunities and higher quality of life abroad and opted for government jobs. They are doing wonderful for themselves and for the state.

Those who are patriotic and want genuine improvement in the country should consider at least few decades of their working life in their country. Just HNI living and paying taxes will result in a huge contribution to the country

 

[the Great Khan]

After reading some of the excellent debates from [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION], his views are very much similar to lot of educated folks in India. I am talking about lot of engineers/doctors who went abroad spent considerable time their but returned back to India due to either personal or career goals. They are very critical of people who leave the country but find solace in criticizing the people who decides to stay back and work and pay taxes in India. And i agree 100% with them. Although i understand the concern and nostalgia that the non residents express finally the country is made or broken by those individuals who decides to stay and work for their country. I have been fortunate enough to be associated with few ideals driven individuals who gave up their personal growth opportunities and higher quality of life abroad and opted for government jobs. They are doing wonderful for themselves and for the state.

Those who are patriotic and want genuine improvement in the country should consider at least few decades of their working life in their country. Just HNI living and paying taxes will result in a huge contribution to the country

And yet spends all of his time on this forum which was setup by expats..and also sits in the US, while fellow medical students who don't have his deep pockets fight their way through the Pakistani education system and stay within the country..just because some on this forum have never lived in Pakistan or perhaps have never really contributed to that country doesn't mean they do not have the right to comment on its economic policy. Just shutting down the debate by saying " oh you don't live here so shut up" is a cowards way out..this is a discussion forum..time for your friend Mamoon jee to present his alternative plan for the uplift of Pakistan since in his opinion IK is useless..

 

[slipcatch]

You only offer half-baked critique. All you do is hide behind what others say.

I believe half-baked critique is better than criticizing for the sake of criticism and without any real solution.

Hide behind? agreeing with sane people, who aren't criticizing for the sake of criticism and are in tune with reality doesn't make me hide behind what other say.

You want to appear as if you are the genius one and 99.9% of times end up criticizing for the sake of criticism and to appear different.

You have not presented a 'single valid' solution to any of the Pakistan's issue other than moaning and deflecting when you are cornered.

Carry on..

 

[marlonbrowndo]

According to expat Pakistanis, the standard of living in Pakistan is better than the West, you have to less taxes and the life security is not worse either.

However, when you ask them why don’t they pack their bags and come back to Pakistan if everything is so great, they have no answer, and all you get from them is “aye bayen shayen”.

You can’t even laugh at them anymore. You have to pity them.

True

 

[Technics 1210]

A patriot whether expat, or indigenous, will love their country rain, sleet, or shine. Our wannabe patriot who himself admits hates being a Pakistani spends his entire time spewing vitirol towards Pakistan, but will happily retain his life in Pakistan (because it's paid by his daddy and brown envelopes) instead of immigrating to the West. Most likely border force rejected his visa because they saw straight through his lies.

Don't feed the troll folks. Pretty words typed in MS word, for spelling and grammar check, might fool many, but not the few.

 

[Syed1]

A patriot whether expat, or indigenous, will love their country rain, sleet, or shine. Our wannabe patriot who himself admits hates being a Pakistani spends his entire time spewing vitirol towards Pakistan, but will happily retain his life in Pakistan (because it's paid by his daddy and brown envelopes) instead of immigrating to the West. Most likely border force rejected his visa because they saw straight through his lies.

Don't feed the troll folks. Pretty words typed in MS word, for spelling and grammar check, might fool many, but not the few.

Mr. Patriot here made a thread while he was out in the west studying due to daddy's benevolence about how he is a social outcast and hasn't made a friend in 3 years.



Loves Pakistan so much that he chills on his government job and spends all the time on the phone while patients are dying. With patriots like these who need enemies.

 

[SportsWarrior]

And yet spends all of his time on this forum which was setup by expats..and also sits in the US, while fellow medical students who don't have his deep pockets fight their way through the Pakistani education system and stay within the country..just because some on this forum have never lived in Pakistan or perhaps have never really contributed to that country doesn't mean they do not have the right to comment on its economic policy. Just shutting down the debate by saying " oh you don't live here so shut up" is a cowards way out..this is a discussion forum..time for your friend Mamoon jee to present his alternative plan for the uplift of Pakistan since in his opinion IK is useless..

he is not my friend sir. and i have also stayed out of my country multiple times. No problems with expats. but the best way they can help is going back to their countries and support by working locally and paying taxes. There are other ways expats can support like being part of NGO, supporting right charities, working in their host country to improve home country image, etc. Just sending money to their family (which is good and done to improve close family life) will not do.

 

[Technics 1210]

Mr. Patriot here made a thread while he was out in the west studying due to daddy's benevolence about how he is a social outcast and hasn't made a friend in 3 years.



Loves Pakistan so much that he chills on his government job and spends all the time on the phone while patients are dying. With patriots like these who need enemies.

This doesn't surprise me. He wants to move to Scandinavia because the Nordics topped the happiness league according to the UN (a failed institution as it is) but doesn't realise that happiness is from within and has no price. He won't migrate from the country he hates because he is on a free ride. His happiness is derived from materialism, and persistent hatred. No wonder he couldn't make friends in 3 years; it's what society would call - a reject.

I rather be born an indian than a Mamoon. (No offence to indians).

 

[the Great Khan]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] I'm waiting for you to grow a pair and come back on here to answer the charge that you provide no real alternative narrative to the folks above. Why are you scared? Stop hiding behind your phone and tell us what alternative view you have and what IK can do that he has not done.

 

[Savak]

Those complaining about Indirect taxation lol, it is the same in Canada and in the UK, if you buy taxable items or eat at a resteraunt you have to pay sales tax on it, and it is 13% on what you purchased and it is a much minor amount, you are not being taxed 13% on your income, it doesn't mean that you should not be taxed on your income seperately as part of your personal tax liability. You are duty bound to pay both your personal tax liability for the year and sales taxes on every taxable item you purchase.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

PTI simply reversed the tax exemptions that PML N did right before the election. And that too not completely. If anything the tax is still too low.

 

[Jin Chacha]

Those complaining about Indirect taxation lol, it is the same in Canada and in the UK, if you buy taxable items or eat at a resteraunt you have to pay sales tax on it, and it is 13% on what you purchased and it is a much minor amount, you are not being taxed 13% on your income, it doesn't mean that you should not be taxed on your income seperately as part of your personal tax liability. You are duty bound to pay both your personal tax liability for the year and sales taxes on every taxable item you purchase.

You are completely missing the point. Every country has indirect taxes. The issue here is our over reliance on indirect taxes because we are unable/unwilling to tax the non salaried classes. Indirect taxes in Canada constitute barely 15% of the total tax revenue, in Pakistan it is over 60%. The salaried classes are not refusing to pay taxes (they practically can't because it is deducted at source if direct and at POS if indirect) and are infact the only ones paying taxes. The current change in tax brackets will do nothing to tax the rich because the rich don't derive the majority of there income from salaries.

And while in my opinion it is completely wrong to compare Pakistan with US/UK/Canada if you really want to use Canada as a benchmark, here is a breakdown of Canadian and Pakistani tax revenues.





Edit:The first picture is Canada if you cant guess.

 

[amvbfm]

You are completely missing the point. Every country has indirect taxes. The issue here is our over reliance on indirect taxes because we are unable/unwilling to tax the non salaried classes. Indirect taxes in Canada constitute barely 15% of the total tax revenue, in Pakistan it is over 60%. The salaried classes are not refusing to pay taxes (they practically can't because it is deducted at source if direct and at POS if indirect) and are infact the only ones paying taxes. The current change in tax brackets will do nothing to tax the rich because the rich don't derive the majority of there income from salaries.

And while in my opinion it is completely wrong to compare Pakistan with US/UK/Canada if you really want to use Canada as a benchmark, here is a breakdown of Canadian and Pakistani tax revenues.

View attachment 92469

View attachment 92470

Edit:The first picture is Canada if you cant guess.

Very good post. As I pointed out in my previous posts with the example of IK and which my friends conveniently chose to ignore, the rate at which the non-salaried class (that is if they even pay any) is taxed is much much lower than what the salaried class pays and that is when that class has a much higher level of income compared to the salaried class.

 

[Jin Chacha]

Very good post. As I pointed out in my previous posts with the example of IK and which my friends conveniently chose to ignore, the rate at which the non-salaried class (that is if they even pay any) is taxed is much much lower than what the salaried class pays and that is when that class has a much higher level of income compared to the salaried class.

To be honest this thread has gone completely offtopic and no one is interested in discussing the merits or demerits of the budget. It is now more about people trying to prove that living in the West is somehow more difficult than living in Pakistan and all the problems are the fault of the previous govts (which is true but also wrongly absolves the current govt of any responsibility for the current budget).

 

[Mamoon]

Those complaining about Indirect taxation lol, it is the same in Canada and in the UK, if you buy taxable items or eat at a resteraunt you have to pay sales tax on it, and it is 13% on what you purchased and it is a much minor amount, you are not being taxed 13% on your income, it doesn't mean that you should not be taxed on your income seperately as part of your personal tax liability. You are duty bound to pay both your personal tax liability for the year and sales taxes on every taxable item you purchase.

So why don’t you come back to Pakistan, and why did your parents leave in the first place?

I don’t understand expats. Apparently, everything is better in Pakistan, but for some reason they are unwilling to come back.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] I'm waiting for you to grow a pair and come back on here to answer the charge that you provide no real alternative narrative to the folks above. Why are you scared? Stop hiding behind your phone and tell us what alternative view you have and what IK can do that he has not done.

I am traveling. It is difficult for me to write a lengthy post at the moment. Have patience, you will hear from me soon.

 

[Mamoon]

A patriot whether expat, or indigenous, will love their country rain, sleet, or shine. Our wannabe patriot who himself admits hates being a Pakistani spends his entire time spewing vitirol towards Pakistan, but will happily retain his life in Pakistan (because it's paid by his daddy and brown envelopes) instead of immigrating to the West. Most likely border force rejected his visa because they saw straight through his lies.

Don't feed the troll folks. Pretty words typed in MS word, for spelling and grammar check, might fool many, but not the few.

Empty words mean nothing. No one gives two hoots if you love the country - it is easy to love the country when you are sitting in the West.

If everything in Pakistan is better compared to the UK, why don’t you pack your bags, throw your maroon passport in the fire and come back?

As usual, you will come up with a list of excuses, justifications and logical fallacies to defend yourself because you know that you were talking crap when you were attempting to prove that living in Pakistan is better than living in the UK. I will get back to that once I reach home.

 

[Mamoon]

Mr. Patriot here made a thread while he was out in the west studying due to daddy's benevolence about how he is a social outcast and hasn't made a friend in 3 years.



Loves Pakistan so much that he chills on his government job and spends all the time on the phone while patients are dying. With patriots like these who need enemies.

This doesn't surprise me. He wants to move to Scandinavia because the Nordics topped the happiness league according to the UN (a failed institution as it is) but doesn't realise that happiness is from within and has no price. He won't migrate from the country he hates because he is on a free ride. His happiness is derived from materialism, and persistent hatred. No wonder he couldn't make friends in 3 years; it's what society would call - a reject.

I rather be born an indian than a Mamoon. (No offence to indians).

To be honest, I didn’t enjoy the environment in the U.S. I prefer the European lifestyle, and I would prefer to live in the UK over the U.S. if I had to choose between the two. I eventually did make some excellent friends though, most of them Indian.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

You are not going anywhere with this debate, its useless.

Let Khan destroy this country.

You are right. The cult following of PTI is a virus.

 

[LongHorn]

To be honest this thread has gone completely offtopic and no one is interested in discussing the merits or demerits of the budget. It is now more about people trying to prove that living in the West is somehow more difficult than living in Pakistan and all the problems are the fault of the previous govts (which is true but also wrongly absolves the current govt of any responsibility for the current budget).

The ones doing the comparison are not comparing like with like

Life as a upper class Pakistani is definitely better than a middle class person in the UK. But a lower-middle class British Pakistani is far better off than a lower middle class Pakistani


The claim, don't remember who made it, that education in Pakistan is superior because kids are made to memorize sine and cos values was hilarious though. Being forced to not use a calculator does not make someone a better student, just as being forced to hand write an essay does not make one a better writer than someone typing it....

 

[Mamoon]

The ones doing the comparison are not comparing like with like

Life as a upper class Pakistani is definitely better than a middle class person in the UK. But a lower-middle class British Pakistani is far better off than a lower middle class Pakistani


The claim, don't remember who made it, that education in Pakistan is superior because kids are made to memorize sine and cos values was hilarious though. Being forced to not use a calculator does not make someone a better student, just as being forced to hand write an essay does not make one a better writer than someone typing it....

It is our friend [MENTION=149166]Technics 1210[/MENTION].

He has no clue about life in Pakistan, yet he claims that standard of living in Pakistan is better than the UK, and yet, he refuses to pack his bags and come back to Pakistan for good.

I never thought I would get to see a live circus show on PP.

 

[Mr.Q]

To be honest this thread has gone completely offtopic and no one is interested in discussing the merits or demerits of the budget.

Will mention a couple of things I have noticed.

You can’t just compare tax % in different countries and say one is better than the other. A depreciating currency/inflation makes life very difficult for people. Increasing tax rates is a way to bring inflation down and increase revenue. But increasing income tax of individuals for it is a very controversial method. It’s an effective method but a very unpopular one.
I’ll mention another demerit I came to know about through a friend. I checked the data later on and Federal Excise Duty will now be imposed on all cars irrespective of displacement which is understandable but the duty on high displacement/more expensive cars has been brought down! Unless there is a specific reason for this, I don’t understand why the government would impose duty on smaller cars and then reduce the duty on more expensive cars.

There are several merits but it does have its demerits as well.

 

[Jin Chacha]

Will mention a couple of things I have noticed.

You can’t just compare tax % in different countries and say one is better than the other. A depreciating currency/inflation makes life very difficult for people. Increasing tax rates is a way to bring inflation down and increase revenue. But increasing income tax of individuals for it is a very controversial method. It’s an effective method but a very unpopular one.
I’ll mention another demerit I came to know about through a friend. I checked the data later on and Federal Excise Duty will now be imposed on all cars irrespective of displacement which is understandable but the duty on high displacement/more expensive cars has been brought down! Unless there is a specific reason for this, I don’t understand why the government would impose duty on smaller cars and then reduce the duty on more expensive cars.

There are several merits but it does have its demerits as well.

It certainly does have some good measures too. The imposition of capital gain tax on the sale of plots held for less than a certain time period being one. The price of land in cities like Karachi is ridiculously high because of speculative buying and selling. People purchase land to park black money or to make a quick profit with zero productive economic activity and this has been going on for decades. Similarly, this is the first govt that has tried to reduce the parking of black money in prize bonds by making their registration necessary.

To be fair even the tax brackets for salaried persons are too unreasonable. The criticism is more about lack of measures to tax the rich and reduce the burden on lower income groups.

 

[Mr.Q]

It certainly does have some good measures too. The imposition of capital gain tax on the sale of plots held for less than a certain time period being one. The price of land in cities like Karachi is ridiculously high because of speculative buying and selling. People purchase land to park black money or to make a quick profit with zero productive economic activity and this has been going on for decades. Similarly, this is the first govt that has tried to reduce the parking of black money in prize bonds by making their registration necessary.

To be fair even the tax brackets for salaried persons are too unreasonable. The criticism is more about lack of measures to tax the rich and reduce the burden on lower income groups.

Huge move that.

Yep mostly positive. Have done what they in the current scenario except for a few confusing steps here and there, which obviously can be corrected later on.

 

[amvbfm]

It certainly does have some good measures too. The imposition of capital gain tax on the sale of plots held for less than a certain time period being one. The price of land in cities like Karachi is ridiculously high because of speculative buying and selling. People purchase land to park black money or to make a quick profit with zero productive economic activity and this has been going on for decades. Similarly, this is the first govt that has tried to reduce the parking of black money in prize bonds by making their registration necessary.

To be fair even the tax brackets for salaried persons are too unreasonable. The criticism is more about lack of measures to tax the rich and reduce the burden on lower income groups.

The new income tax brackets are quite reasonable as unlike the previous ones they have created 11 slabs with the upper ones pretty high. For comparison during the NS regime the highest slab was for income exceeding 7,000,000. Now that income level falls in the middle brackets with the top most slab set for income exceeding 75,000,000. Although, I suspect that we might see a mini budget somewhere around the start of next year where these might be jacked up a bit more.

 

[Jin Chacha]

The new income tax brackets are quite reasonable as unlike the previous ones they have created 11 slabs with the upper ones pretty high. For comparison during the NS regime the highest slab was for income exceeding 7,000,000. Now that income level falls in the middle brackets with the top most slab set for income exceeding 75,000,000. Although, I suspect that we might see a mini budget somewhere around the start of next year where these might be jacked up a bit more.

Yes that was a typo. I meant the tax brackets are not too unreasonable.

 

[Mamoon]

Adopting a condescending tone and going off on a tangent will not change the fact that you are repeatedly deflecting very straightforward questions and are not coming to the point.

It is expected though - you are arguing that Pakistan has a better standard of living than the UK and people in Pakistan and that Pakistan is a more liveable country. That is as terrible an argument as arguing that the earth is flat and the sun rises from the West.

This is semantics and another shot at the point from your perspective. You have once again undermined your argument all by yourself. You never started off this topic by claiming nothing is guaranteed, or by talking percentages, or services must be paid for, because you thought that services such as the NHS are free in the UK and now that you got schooled, you are just changing the tune.

If you really want to talk percentages, Pakistan has a population over 3 times the size of the UK. Pakistan’s GDP to debt ratio is smaller than the UK. The standard of living in the UK is borrowed from the future, i.e, credit/debt.

You are simply stating a tautological point that rich people can afford a higher standard of living. What an eye opener!

I work in the Telecoms industry and I can tell you that the only places in the UK which have acceptable internet access and performance are main cities, because the further you are from the telephone exchange, the greater the resistance, and the lower the synch bandwidth. Distance is proportional to latency, and latency is inversely proportional to performance. ADSL is still common in the UK, and requires a PSTN line. Think about this for a moment. This is how backward internet connectivity is in the UK. FTTP – Fibre to the premises – is a luxury in the UK and mostly available in major cities.

You must live out in the sticks of Pakistan. I have just had fibre installed in my home in Karachi, 30M synchronous and works like a charm. I play online games with my family in Pakistan and rarely have issues unless on the weekends when contention ratio is higher (this means more people shared the same bandwidth).

Rambling on and on will not give your weak argument any credibility. You are right about the fact that Pakistan is overpopulated, and this is the major reason why the standard of living is poor. Speaking of Internet connection, I use Nayatel and I have a 30 Mbps connection that costs me around 7,000 rupees per month.

Fibre internet is only available in the major cities in Pakistan. In other areas, people are still using DSL internet, so there goes your statement that fibre is only available in the major cities in the UK.

Again, it is about affordability and the percentage of population that can afford high-end service. What is the percentage of population in Pakistan that can afford to pay 7,000 per month just for internet? Now compare it to the percentage of people in the UK who can afford fast internet? The purchasing power in the UK is much higher than Pakistan.

Another tautological point. Not only this, you have again undermined your argument above by claiming you can get quality internet access in Pakistan if you are ready to spend the money. Well guess what champ, the same applies to the UK. Of course if you have money you can buy an internet with a higher bandwidth. Though your premise is that every property in the UK has a decent Internet connection. You are woefully wrong.

You seem to have picked up a new word. "Tautological" sounds nice in an argument, but don't overuse it. Again, as I said, it is not about what money can buy you in Pakistan; it is about the fact that the a very small percentage of the population can afford. If you are rich, you can get pretty much anything anywhere, but looking at the rich is not how you measure the standard of living in a certain country. The middle-class, lower-middle class and the poor suffer more in Pakistan compared to the UK because of overpopulation. That is why our system is dysfunctional.

Again, you are mistaken. You are confusing quality with availability. I can guarantee you that fibre to the premises in Pakistan will reach more people before the UK does. You know why? In the UK to lay the fibre the company must dig up the roads. It is not happening in rural areas in the UK, but in Pakistan, fibre is extended underground, or overhead.

Please provide me with a list of remote villages and rural areas in Pakistan that have access to fibre. Nayatel, one of the premium ISPs in Pakistan, provides services in a select few cities only. You can check their website for details. Same goes for other major ISPs as well. Rural areas have no access to fibre connection. It is a privilege enjoyed by people in major cities only.

More tautology. Public schooling is pants in the UK, private schooling is also pants, but expensive in the UK. Do you know what the main difference is between Public and Private schooling in the UK? The number of students per teacher. They learn from the same syllabus. The difference? A teacher has more time for a student, but you must pay for the privilege in the UK, just as you would elsewhere.

Let me tell you something else. In Pakistan, if a student fails a year, they do not progress, in the UK, students progress no matter what. There is no incentive to better yourself in schools. Not only this, the method of teaching in Pakistan is superior to that of the UK. For example, in Pakistan, they teach your grammar in English lessons unlike in the UK where you are forced to read pointless novels.

In Pakistan they teach you mathematics without the need of a calculator. All the formulas are memorised, all relationships such as Sine, Cosine and Tangents are memorised. As for university, in the UK you got to pay each year, and once your degree is complete, you are saddled with a £30000 debt.

This is not all, the UK grades in pre university schooling are a joke. 70% of an exam, is considered an A. You read that right, 70%. In Pakistan 70% is one step above a fail. This is how the UK education standards bolster the pass rate each year, by lowering the threshold.

There is so much wrong with this point that I have no idea where to begin. Anyway, I will try. You have absolutely no idea how bad public schooling is in Pakistan. The textbooks are poorly written, the teachers have no idea how to encourage learning, the number of students per class is too high, the infrastructure is terrible. In fact, they are actual schools in Pakistan, especially in KP (thanks to Imran Khan) where schools don't even have buildings.

Furthermore, these schools lack basic facilities as well, such as clean drinking water, electricity and even toilets. As I said, public schooling in the UK may not be perfect, but it is still far, far better than what we have in Pakistan. The fact that you are even arguing this point shows that you are clueless about Pakistan. You have absolutely no idea.

Do you know how many hospitals are closing in the UK each year? Just google the conditions of UK hospitals to get an idea of the state of health services. The hospitals you refer to are the top dog hospitals in the main cities, in particular London. Outside London, completely different story.

If you think public hospitals are bad in the UK, I dare you to come to Pakistan and a pay a visit to the public hospitals in Pakistan. Again, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about because you have absolutely no clue about the standards of public hospitals in Pakistan. Forget basic hygiene and necessities; you have infected cats sitting on beds and rats running between your legs. If you are healthy, the chances are very high that you will walk about of a hospital with an infection.

Again, the major issue is the overpopulation. The amount of traffic in public hospitals in Pakistan is incomparable. You cannot imagine how many patients have to be dealt with on daily basis.

I might be delusional, but not a fraud. You are not a doctor. Also at no point did I compare the healthcare between UK and Pakistan, what I did mention is that in both countries you have to pay for private health care. Why don’t you compare Public and Private healthcare in the UK? It is a world of difference.

Private healthcare will be better everywhere, but the gap between public and private healthcare in Pakistan is significantly higher than the gap in developed countries.

What? My point was there is no guarantee you will live in a safe area in the UK, you are saying the same for Pakistan. Proving my point.

I am not proving your point. I am proving that you have no idea what you are talking about. There is no guarantee that you will live in a safe area in the UK, but the chances of living in safe area in the UK are much higher than the chances of living in a safe area in Pakistan.

I will not take your word for the value of human life in Pakistan. If you have a problem, you can migrate next door to India to realise what human life really means, where animals have more rights than humans.

Oh that's fine. You do not have to rely on me to drag you out of the pits of ignorance that you find yourself in. You are free to believe that human life is more valued in Pakistan compared to the UK. After all, there are people in the world who think that the Earth is flat. India is far ahead of Pakistan in most metrics, but both countries suffer from some common problems, largely because they are both overpopulated.

What do you mean keep ignoring? This is a new point you decided to muster up because you had your backside handed to you on a plate. Any how this point has been answered above.

It is not a new point. In fact, it is the point of this whole argument. However, you keep ignoring (and still are) because it exposes your nonsense assessment that the standard of living in Pakistan is better than the UK. Using run of the mill, teenage insults like "backside handed on a plate" is not going to stick here. Save yourself the energy.

You are such a melt. The economic system is precisely what determines the standard of living. You already incorrectly assumed that NHS etc are free services in the UK, but were correctly educated when you learned that an efficient tax system within an economy allows for services.

Incorrectly assumed? Please point out the post where I have stated that NHS is free? My point from the start has been simple - in the West, you get better value for your tax money than Pakistan. If the government is not going to use your tax to fund the NHS, where is it going to source the money from?

As for a credit market, stop right there. The UK has a higher debt to GDP ratio compared to Pakistan. The UK is insolvent, its tax receipts fall short of outgoings, the interest on the national debt being one, hence the deficit – net borrowing each month – is just more debt on existing debt. UK has more national debt than Pakistan. The UK is a services industry, hardly anything is manufactured in the UK.

You really are a bell end though. The UK was poor after WW2. The only reason it could borrow money from markets over the years is Bretton Woods, GMT time zone., and low Bond Yields. Arbitrage trading? Heard of it? The reason why London is a financial hub is because it sits bang in the middle of the Eastern and Western markets with respect to timezones. Moreover, after the 2008 crash, the yields on UK bonds were suppressed through Quantative Easing. Money created out of thin air which not only surpasses bond yields, but also devalued the GBP.

Pakistan has far greater resources than the UK, far greater market based on population, and sits isn't a strategic position through the emerging corridor. Nothing to do with Pakistan being poor you daft tool .

Firstly, calling me or someone else a daft tool will not help your argument. This is what got you banned previously and if you don't mend your ways, you will be on your way again. Your problem is that you cannot debate without resorting to low grade insults and jibes, and that is because your arguments tend to have zero substance.

Compared to Pakistan, the UK has a higher GDP per capita, lower unemployment, less poverty, lower crime rate, lower infant mortality rate. The UK also ranks much higher than Pakistan on the Human Development Index. Furthermore, the Pakistani rupee is now worth less than the Bangaldeshi taka. That is why the UK has a higher standard of living than Pakistan.

I have been on this forum for many years, but I never thought there would come a day where I will actually have to debate with a poster that the standard of living in the UK is better than the standard of living in Pakistan.

Once again undermining your argument. You have the money therefore power cuts are less for you! You have the money, can by generators.

I have the money, but majority of the people don't.

I have the nerve because I lived in both countries, unlike you who thinks he can speak for the UK based on a trip to Madam Tussaud.

You may have lived in Pakistan when you were in your nappies, because you clearly have no clue about life in Pakistan. Madame Tussauds? Yes I went there once, back in 1996-1997 I think. I have a lot of family in the UK, and I travel there very frequently.

There that melt again. Quality of life is always conformable for the rich no matter which country you live in. You can trumpet all about quality of lifestyle, but quality is subjective.

And that is not the point at all. We are not talking about the lifestyle of the rich but about the lifestyle of the majority. Pakistan is hell for people who are less privileged, and this is why like other third world, underdeveloped countries, it cannot be compared to the first world.

You proper mong. The middle class in Pakistan can afford a cook, driver, clearner etc. These are luxuries for the middle class in the UK. Also Isle of Man? No wonder you got low standards.

A gardener might be a middle-class person in the UK, but in Pakistan, it is a profession of the people who are below the poverty line. Thank you for explaining the difference between the standard of living in the UK and the standard of living in Pakistan. A gardener in Pakistan cannot afford an SUV even if he works for a century.

Isle of Man is a pretty nice place to live. It is a bit out of the way, but it is beautiful, scarcely populated and is like a giant village. Also, the Manx culture and history is quite interesting. I know you don't have the intelligence to appreciate art and history, so I can understand why you think Isle of Man is a dire place to live.

How do you know I am not?

Here’s the thing. Your measurement of quality is based on materialism. Cars, House, Money in the bank, and that laughable aspect of life you call, art.

None of this matters, because the difference between you and I is that I measure the quality of life by the quality of my sleep every night. Person who sleeps at ease at night is the winner of this world, whereas you measure quality based on your internet connection.

You are not because no one can live in two places at once. You always have one base, and your base is clearly the UK because that is where you pay your taxes and that is where you work. It doesn't matter how frequently you come to Pakistan; the fact is that your home is the UK.

My measure of standard of living is based on tangible factors that you repeatedly deny because they contradict your nonsensical assertion that the standard of living in the UK is inferior compared to Pakistan.

Let's go over these factors again quickly:

Which country has the higher rate of poverty? Pakistan
Which country has higher rate of unemployment? Pakistan
Which country has the higher infant mortality rate? Pakistan
Which country ranks lower on the Human Development Index? Pakistan

I can go on and on and on and completely nuke your assertion, but I think this is more than enough for now.

Your justification of supporting your outlandish claim?

"the rich in Pakistan live a great life"

A factual statement, but that is not how you measure and define the standard of living in any particular country. Speaking of sleeping with ease at night? More people sleep with unease at night in Pakistan than there are people in the entire UK.

You are many things, but you are not a patriot, so stop acting like one. You attack, belittle, abuse, insult Pakistan at every juncture and opportunity. Whether it is from Politics, to Cricket, or just using the opportunity to criticize Imran Khan when saying Eid Mubarek!

You are the biggest fraud I have ever come across. On one hand you state you are unfortunate to be Pakistani, then on the other hand would not give up your Pakistani lifestyle (clearly funded by corruption) for any lifestyle in the world. Go immigrate to India if you hate Pakistan so much.

Blindly defending your country in every aspect does not make you a patriot; it makes you delusional. I do not intend to leave Pakistan I have my family and my roots here. I am also very fortunate that I belong to a very low percentage of population that is not struggling to make ends meet in Pakistan. I can afford a high standard of living, but that does not mean that I have to live in a bubble - I am not oblivious to the plight of the vast majority of the people in this country.

You consider being a Pakistani as a misfortune and regret every minute of it, well, I consider myself fortunate that I was not born as someone like you and am proud to be of Pakistan origin! Whether Expats Pakistanis, or indigenous, they are more patriotic than the scam artist you are.

This is the value you bring to the forums, you make me realise that life could be much worse if I were in your shoes; chronic depression, persistent insecurities, and not a shred of happiness or optimism - I thank Allah I was not born in your shoes. Simply put, you serve as a reminder that life could be worse, you could be Mamoon.

Now get back to your meds.

You could be worse than Mamoon. You could be a British Pakistani, who is proud of his Pakistani origins, who thinks the standard of living in Pakistan is better than the UK, who moans about the taxes that he pays in the UK,

who thinks that Pakistan has more resources, who thinks that the middle and the lower class live better lives in Pakistan, who thinks that that public education and healthcare is also better in Pakistan,

who thinks the the internet connectivity is better in Pakistan, but yet somehow, is not willing to pack things up in the UK and come back to Pakistan for good.

Oh wait I am sorry, that is you. Pity.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION]

Firstly, I am not in the U.S. anymore. I was there from 2016 to 2018, but I am back now for good. If you don't trust me, you can ask the mods to check my IP.

Before you I propose my solution, allow me to first clarify what my problem with Imran Khan is.

Imran Khan is a power hungry narcissist and a con-man who has taken millions of gullible fools for a ride. He suffers from very high grade Messiah complex - had he lived a thousand years ago, he would have started his own religion.

He is no revolutionist. A true revolutionist does not compromise his beliefs, his virtues and the manifesto of his political struggle to come into power. That is exactly what Imran Khan has done in the last 6 years.

If you go back to around 2010-2011 (when his movement really took off) and compare to what he said then to what he is doing now, he has taken a complete U-turn on almost everything. The 2013 election started his decline, and his U-turn on electables cost him many supporters because it was a slap in the face for them.

By allowing every lota to join his party from PMLQ, PPP and PMLN as long as they brought their vote bank with them to help him become the PM, he completely flushed PTI's manifesto down the toilet. He promised to get rid of these individuals who did nothing for the country in the past, but all he did was join them once he realised that he cannot become the PM without them.

He also somehow convinced his brainwashed cult followers that if the leader is honest, the people who are below him work with honesty as well. That is utter rubbish and it has been disproved already.

Secondly, he decided to become the Military's puppet to win the election. Today, he is playing the same role as Nawaz back in the 90's. This is the same Imran who called Pakistan military "a bull in China shop" and guilty of extra-judicially killings.

Do you think he has the guts to say that today?

Imran claims that he fights for democracy, but he has sided with the most undemocratic institution in the country - an institution that has dictated Pakistan's foreign policy as well as internal politics to serve its own interests.

Up until 2013, Imran fought for the people. After 2013, he has fought for himself and his quest to become the PM no matter what. In the last few years, his entire politics has been built on insulting and making accusations against Nawaz and Zardari.

He has been preoccupied with what they have done rather what he will do if or when he comes into power. That is why the he failed in KP and now he is failing at a federal level. He is under-prepared because he doesn't focus on his objectives. His government has been a circus so far because he has no idea what he is doing, and he has no idea because he didn't have any long-term strategy or plan.

For years, he championed Asad Umar as a solution to our economic woes, but then he sacked him within 8 months, much to the humiliation of his cult members who were defending his performance. To make matters worse, he has replaced him with a former PPP Finance Minister, the same PPP whose performance he criticises day and night.

Apparently, his solution for driving Pakistan's economy is to give charge to a man who contributed to its downfall. I am in awe of his wisdom.

In addition, he gave the Ministry of Science and Technology to a duffer who thinks that the Hubble telescope was sent into space by Pakistan. According to his unparalleled wisdom, he will drive this ministry forward, which is an extremely important one for an underdeveloped country.

Yesterday, he appointed Ali Jahangir Siddiqui as Ambassador for Foreign Investment, when his party criticised his appointment as U.S. Ambassador. The official statement was that his appointment was a "murder of national interest". So what now? Is this not a murder of national interest? Or is everything halal for Khalifa Niazi is his newly established Madinah welfare state?

Speaking of his performance in KP, if one can look beyond the propaganda of PTI's social media, the ground reality is quite different. Their education reforms flopped, their health reforms flopped, their anti-corruption drive failed because their own CM was guilty of embezzlement. They also completely botched the BRT after making tall claims that that they will show other governments how to make metro bus at minimal cost.

On a side note, the current Health Minister in KP is a fake dentist, who recently beat up a doctor. As a result of that incident, the PTI propaganda of improving healthcare in KP was brutally exposed.

It is indeed true that the PTI government inherited a troublesome economy. That is beyond any doubt. However, we cannot look behind forever, and neither can PTI hide behind the mistakes and failures of other parties forever. At some point, they will have to show their performance and take accountability of their own poor decision-making.

I don't see that happening, because Imran is not focused on building competencies. Countries are driving by building competencies, skills and expertise and not by eliminating corruption. Even if you don't do a rupee of corruption, you are good for nothing as long as you don't have the competency for a role.

What will a man who believes that Pakistan sent Hubble into space bring to the Ministry of Science and Technology? Absolutely nothing, even if he does zero corruption.

India's example is in front of us. A heavily corrupt country, but their economy is far more developed than ours because they focused on competencies. Their main exports are IT, Pharma, Auto etc. They also have companies like TATA and Reliance who are bigger than all Pakistani companies put together, as well as other companies such as Infosys, HCL etc., they have companies who are industry leaders. They also have companies like TATA and Reliance who are bigger than all Pakistani companies put together.

What do we have? Nothing expect for our "imaan". That is why India's economy is growing at a rapid rate while ours is stagnant.

If corruption was the biggest stumbling block, India would not have flourished compared to Pakistan. We can talk about corruption forever and keep jailing people like Nawaz and Zardari, but as long as we don't focus on building skills and competencies, we will not develop.

As far as the solution is concerned, as I said in the cricket forum, the solution to Pakistan's woes does not lie in putting faith in an Imran Khan; the solution lies in changing our rotten mentality.

We are a very delusional, naive nation that lives in perpetual denial. According to us, we are angels who have been victimised by the conspiracies of India and the West, who cannot see this "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" flourish, and that is why the scheme against us to put us down. Let's get real - the only reason why are in the dumps today is because of our own failings and our own attitude.

We need to stop blaming others and look back at the last 72 years and see what we need to change in order to ensure that the next 72 years are better. It is absolutely critical to get our military out of our politics and our economy. Their role should be reduced to the borders which is the case in every true democracy.

We need to put them in their place and remind that them that it is not their place to interfere in political and economic decisions. They are servants of the state and they are responsible to protect our borders. It is of course much easier said than done, but this is where public perception matters. Unfortunately, our public has been victimised by military propaganda to such an extent that they are now oblivious to the villainous role that they have played.

Secondly, we need to take ownership of our problems. It is easy to blame India for funding PTM and Balochi separatists, but we failed to realise that if you keep your own house in order, no foreign power can fund or influence separatists. Had we managed to keep the people of Balochistan and FATA happy, and if we hadn't alienated them with our pathetic policies, India or any other super villain would not have been able to take advantage of anything.

Even if they are being funded and supported by foreigners today, it is entirely our own fault.

We need to get out of the victim mentality and the perception that the whole world is out there to get us. We are not only delusional, but we are also a very paranoid nation. We don't realise that the only thing that is holding us back is our attitude and mentality. Pakistan as a country has tremendous human capital potential.

If we get our military out of our economy, stop alienating our own people and stop blaming other, more successful countries for own problems, we will improve without the help of a political saviour like Imran Khan.

As far as the notion that expats are hypocrites for not coming back to Pakistan, look, it is important to clarify my position. As I said have previously, if you are underprivileged, Pakistan is not for you. Hence, I have nothing but respect for the people who were struggling to make ends meet in Pakistan and migrated to the West to improve their lives and that of their future generations. I think such people deserve a lot of respect for their courage and dedication.

These people still love Pakistan, but they make no bones about the fact their lives are better in the West and they are now doing better.

However, there is also another group of expats who are disingenuous hypocrites. They will argue over the Internet that live in Pakistan is wonderful and the standard of living is better than the West, but for some reason, when you ask them to pack their bags and come to Pakistan, they start to deflect and change the topic. If everything is better in Pakistan, why did they or their parents or their grandparents leave, and why don't they come back now?

 

[Savak]

You are completely missing the point. Every country has indirect taxes. The issue here is our over reliance on indirect taxes because we are unable/unwilling to tax the non salaried classes. Indirect taxes in Canada constitute barely 15% of the total tax revenue, in Pakistan it is over 60%. The salaried classes are not refusing to pay taxes (they practically can't because it is deducted at source if direct and at POS if indirect) and are infact the only ones paying taxes. The current change in tax brackets will do nothing to tax the rich because the rich don't derive the majority of there income from salaries.

And while in my opinion it is completely wrong to compare Pakistan with US/UK/Canada if you really want to use Canada as a benchmark, here is a breakdown of Canadian and Pakistani tax revenues.

View attachment 92469

View attachment 92470

Edit:The first picture is Canada if you cant guess.

This is what i am saying. People in Pakistan cannot avoid the Indirect taxes because they cannot avoid having to pay sales tax on items they purchase. The chat above confirms the tax avoidance and tax evasion problem in Pakistan. In Canada you can see the vast majority of tax revenue is from personal taxation which is comprised of salaried individuals, business owners/sole proprietors and in comparison in Pakistan this is shockingly lower, i suspect the major reason has to do with the undocumented economy, sole properitors, business owners, shop owners, landlords, agricultural sectors which the govt needs to ruthlessly go after.

 

[Savak]

So why don’t you come back to Pakistan, and why did your parents leave in the first place?

I don’t understand expats. Apparently, everything is better in Pakistan, but for some reason they are unwilling to come back.

Not sure what that has to do with my post but il try my best to answer anyways. My parents who are both doctors after marrying in 1980 moved to the UK where they lived for 3 years because my dad got a residency in a prestigious institution, my mom gave birth to my elder brother a few years later but she started to feel homesick after a while and didn't like living in the West and inspite of my dad's pleas with her to wait it out for another 6 months after which they would have been elligible to apply for UK citizenship she didn't listen and wanted to live in a Muslim country. My parents then both luckily got offered very lucrative positions in Saudia Arabia where they were both earning in USD and didn't think twice about moving to Saudi Arabia in the 83.

They were very happy in Saudia Arabia where they earned handsomely and had a very decent social life and i was born there in 1985 but for some reason they still felt outcast, they didn't like the way Arabs treated non Arab Muslims and felt some discrimination. Also my parents at the time also started feeling homesick, they felt they should go back to Pakistan and contribute to their home country with their medical backgrounds and education but there were also some family circumstances as well as my dad being the eldest brother in his family and with 6 younger siblings, my granddad medically incapacitated and his mother not being able to work anymore because of my grand dad's condition decided in 1986 to come back home as he felt he had to help my grand mom and the rest of siblings out as well by being closer.

So my parents came back to Pakistan in 1986 and it was not easy for them. My dad had put the bulk of his savings in british pounds and USD dollars into the construction of our house in Defence Karachi and for the first 2-3 months we had to live at his elder cousins place in Karachi. We managed to get an appartment in Karachi where the monthly rent was Rs 6,000. My dad had to reestablish himself in his home country and the first few years were very tough financially because of the massive difference in pay scales between the West, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and he got into the top most medical hospital in Karachi at the time but he had to accept a massive pay cut at Rs 15,000 a month out of which Rs 6,000 went to the rent and the rest went to utilities and paying for our fees in schools e.t.c. My dad admits he had to rely heavily on his savings and investments for his first couple of years in Karachi. My mother at the time was not officially a doctor yet and she had to give her exams in Pakistan and had to accept an unpaid residency in a govt hospital.

But my parents worked very hard and my dad rose to the top in the private hospital in peadiatrics and diversified later into research and was very passionate about maternal and child health in Pakistan, South East Asia and his work required him to travel abroad for 2 and sometimes 3 weeks a month every year. My mom on the other hand worked in a govt hospital and rose to the top there as a gynecologist where she worked from morning till the afternoon and then later established her own private clinics in different private hospitals where she would work in the evenings. We had a very comfortable, easy and privilleged lifestyle in Karachi.

My parents have always been a big fan of getting as much education as possible and their attitude was that a basic Bachelors, MBA from a Pakistani University no matter how prestigious was not good enough in the long run and that you have to aim higher. They always pushed me into pursuing accounting. It was in the early to mid 2000's where my mom started pushing my dad that we need to have a second option given the security, political and economic situation in Pakistan right now, my mom applied for US immigration in 2002 and for Canadian Immigration in 2007, the Canadian immigration got accepted in 2011 beyond her expectations and the US immigration got accepted in 2015.

My dad also got offered a highly prestigious position in a hospital in Canada which allowed him to further advance his cause for global peadiatric research and promote Pakistan's maternal and infant mortality problems. I don't know but he managed to negotiate with both the Pakistani hospital he was working for and the Canadian Hospital where they allowed him to work for both insititutions and to divide his time equally between both and he was able to travel back and forth between the US, Canada and Pakistan and for other international assignments.

I at the same time moved to Canada in 2012 and had to start from scratch here because all my Pakistani education, work experience was zero in the new country and therefore i tried to pursue the top most accounting qualification in Canada and it hasn't been an easy journey and i faced a lot of ups and downs in this journey, me being in Canada gave my dad the piece of mind that someone was there to look after our house in Canada. In these 7 years i have had to balance my studies, working part time on the side doing odd jobs, getting into my professional accounting field and being the caretaker of the house.

My mother initially in 2012 chose to remain back in Pakistan because she didn't want to leave my baby sister alone by herself as she was in medical school. But sadly i have seen the toll a split family has on a family. It was during this time period where the 18th amendmend got passed where the govt hospitals got taken over by the provincial govts and these provincial govts absolutely destroyed all the institutions and my mom had to deal with so much unbelievable stress dealing with corrupt bureaucrats and politicians and she was finally relieved when she managed to retire.

It breaks my heart now to see the toll the split family and the stress of working under the provincial govt took on her and now that my sister is a doctor and is getting married, my mother has developed full fledged Parkinsons which has progressed rapidly and my mother who worked very hard rising to the very top in her medical career, playing the role of both mother/father while my dad was travelling most of the time is now unable to enjoy her retirement.

Anyways, sorry i have digressed but my parents from way back kept reinforcing in my mind that life and working in Pakistan is just not the same anymore, salaries have just not kept up with the rate of inflation, there is just too much corruption and nepotism in all private and govt organizations, that even for a peons job you need political backing and that you are better of focusing your energies establishing yourself in the west. To be honest i did try and look at my options in Pakistan in 2017 when we went for Hajj, i at the time also had a severe back problem which i needed to have checked out, the waiting list in Canada was very long and i was unemployed as well so i saw no harm in staying back in Pakistan for 2-3 months to atleast look at my options back home but my parents kept discouraging, demotivating me that there was no future back home, the salaries back home were just not sufficient enough and my dad even mocked me and said that even a monthly salary of Rs 500,000 will not be sufficient anymore. I tried working for a friend of mine in real estate and property management in Pakistan for 2 months because it was one of the few fields in Pakistan where i saw you really could make very quick, fast money but my parents oppossed the idea because of the social stigma attached to the field in Pakistan and my dad even took me to task and shouted at me "After getting an MBA, then being so close to obtaining a CPA in Canada, you now want to work in a field meant for bloody Chooraa's, paan and ghutka people?".

They both pleaded with me to go back to Canada and not to abandon the CPA designation and to keep at it. Plus i also had to make a realistic decision because my sister had just finished medical school and my mother had no more reason to stay in Pakistan anymore as she took had retired and my dad was living, working in Canada and i knew that if my mom, sister were in Canada then i as the elder son needed to be with them as in the West especially you dont have servants and a male has to be around for day to day tasks.

So now my parents are debating their futures and they would ideally like to divide their time equally between Canada, US and Pakistan. I will stay with my parents as i do not want to leave my dad burdened with the responsibility to look after my mom in this state and lets see what the future holds, if they decide to live back in Pakistan full time then maybe i will move with them no matter how much they oppose the decision.

Anyways during this time period and till now my dad is paying taxes in Canada, US, UK and Pakistan , my mother is still paying taxes in Pakistan on her pension income in Pakistan . I hope this clarifies things

 

[Mamoon]

Not sure what that has to do with my post but il try my best to answer anyways. My parents who are both doctors after marrying in 1980 moved to the UK where they lived for 3 years because my dad got a residency in a prestigious institution, my mom gave birth to my elder brother a few years later but she started to feel homesick after a while and didn't like living in the West and inspite of my dad's pleas with her to wait it out for another 6 months after which they would have been elligible to apply for UK citizenship she didn't listen and wanted to live in a Muslim country. My parents then both luckily got offered very lucrative positions in Saudia Arabia where they were both earning in USD and didn't think twice about moving to Saudi Arabia in the 83.

They were very happy in Saudia Arabia where they earned handsomely and had a very decent social life and i was born there in 1985 but for some reason they still felt outcast, they didn't like the way Arabs treated non Arab Muslims and felt some discrimination. Also my parents at the time also started feeling homesick, they felt they should go back to Pakistan and contribute to their home country with their medical backgrounds and education but there were also some family circumstances as well as my dad being the eldest brother in his family and with 6 younger siblings, my granddad medically incapacitated and his mother not being able to work anymore because of my grand dad's condition decided in 1986 to come back home as he felt he had to help my grand mom and the rest of siblings out as well by being closer.

So my parents came back to Pakistan in 1986 and it was not easy for them. My dad had put the bulk of his savings in british pounds and USD dollars into the construction of our house in Defence Karachi and for the first 2-3 months we had to live at his elder cousins place in Karachi. We managed to get an appartment in Karachi where the monthly rent was Rs 6,000. My dad had to reestablish himself in his home country and the first few years were very tough financially because of the massive difference in pay scales between the West, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and he got into the top most medical hospital in Karachi at the time but he had to accept a massive pay cut at Rs 15,000 a month out of which Rs 6,000 went to the rent and the rest went to utilities and paying for our fees in schools e.t.c. My dad admits he had to rely heavily on his savings and investments for his first couple of years in Karachi. My mother at the time was not officially a doctor yet and she had to give her exams in Pakistan and had to accept an unpaid residency in a govt hospital.

But my parents worked very hard and my dad rose to the top in the private hospital in peadiatrics and diversified later into research and was very passionate about maternal and child health in Pakistan, South East Asia and his work required him to travel abroad for 2 and sometimes 3 weeks a month every year. My mom on the other hand worked in a govt hospital and rose to the top there as a gynecologist where she worked from morning till the afternoon and then later established her own private clinics in different private hospitals where she would work in the evenings. We had a very comfortable, easy and privilleged lifestyle in Karachi.

My parents have always been a big fan of getting as much education as possible and their attitude was that a basic Bachelors, MBA from a Pakistani University no matter how prestigious was not good enough in the long run and that you have to aim higher. They always pushed me into pursuing accounting. It was in the early to mid 2000's where my mom started pushing my dad that we need to have a second option given the security, political and economic situation in Pakistan right now, my mom applied for US immigration in 2002 and for Canadian Immigration in 2007, the Canadian immigration got accepted in 2011 beyond her expectations and the US immigration got accepted in 2015.

My dad also got offered a highly prestigious position in a hospital in Canada which allowed him to further advance his cause for global peadiatric research and promote Pakistan's maternal and infant mortality problems. I don't know but he managed to negotiate with both the Pakistani hospital he was working for and the Canadian Hospital where they allowed him to work for both insititutions and to divide his time equally between both and he was able to travel back and forth between the US, Canada and Pakistan and for other international assignments.

I at the same time moved to Canada in 2012 and had to start from scratch here because all my Pakistani education, work experience was zero in the new country and therefore i tried to pursue the top most accounting qualification in Canada and it hasn't been an easy journey and i faced a lot of ups and downs in this journey, me being in Canada gave my dad the piece of mind that someone was there to look after our house in Canada. In these 7 years i have had to balance my studies, working part time on the side doing odd jobs, getting into my professional accounting field and being the caretaker of the house.

My mother initially in 2012 chose to remain back in Pakistan because she didn't want to leave my baby sister alone by herself as she was in medical school. But sadly i have seen the toll a split family has on a family. It was during this time period where the 18th amendmend got passed where the govt hospitals got taken over by the provincial govts and these provincial govts absolutely destroyed all the institutions and my mom had to deal with so much unbelievable stress dealing with corrupt bureaucrats and politicians and she was finally relieved when she managed to retire.

It breaks my heart now to see the toll the split family and the stress of working under the provincial govt took on her and now that my sister is a doctor and is getting married, my mother has developed full fledged Parkinsons which has progressed rapidly and my mother who worked very hard rising to the very top in her medical career, playing the role of both mother/father while my dad was travelling most of the time is now unable to enjoy her retirement.

Anyways, sorry i have digressed but my parents from way back kept reinforcing in my mind that life and working in Pakistan is just not the same anymore, salaries have just not kept up with the rate of inflation, there is just too much corruption and nepotism in all private and govt organizations, that even for a peons job you need political backing and that you are better of focusing your energies establishing yourself in the west. To be honest i did try and look at my options in Pakistan in 2017 when we went for Hajj, i at the time also had a severe back problem which i needed to have checked out, the waiting list in Canada was very long and i was unemployed as well so i saw no harm in staying back in Pakistan for 2-3 months to atleast look at my options back home but my parents kept discouraging, demotivating me that there was no future back home, the salaries back home were just not sufficient enough and my dad even mocked me and said that even a monthly salary of Rs 500,000 will not be sufficient anymore. I tried working for a friend of mine in real estate and property management in Pakistan for 2 months because it was one of the few fields in Pakistan where i saw you really could make very quick, fast money but my parents oppossed the idea because of the social stigma attached to the field in Pakistan and my dad even took me to task and shouted at me "After getting an MBA, then being so close to obtaining a CPA in Canada, you now want to work in a field meant for bloody Chooraa's, paan and ghutka people?".

They both pleaded with me to go back to Canada and not to abandon the CPA designation and to keep at it. Plus i also had to make a realistic decision because my sister had just finished medical school and my mother had no more reason to stay in Pakistan anymore as she took had retired and my dad was living, working in Canada and i knew that if my mom, sister were in Canada then i as the elder son needed to be with them as in the West especially you dont have servants and a male has to be around for day to day tasks.

So now my parents are debating their futures and they would ideally like to divide their time equally between Canada, US and Pakistan. I will stay with my parents as i do not want to leave my dad burdened with the responsibility to look after my mom in this state and lets see what the future holds, if they decide to live back in Pakistan full time then maybe i will move with them no matter how much they oppose the decision.

Anyways during this time period and till now my dad is paying taxes in Canada, US, UK and Pakistan , my mother is still paying taxes in Pakistan on her pension income in Pakistan . I hope this clarifies things

First of all, thank you for the detailed explanation. Your parents have sacrificed a lot for you and your sister, and I very sorry to hear about your mother. However, the biggest takeaway from your story (with respect to this thread) is that your parents applied for U.S./Canadian immigration in spite of living a comfortable lifestyle in Pakistan. Their motivation was to give you, your sister and your future children a brighter future.

And then there are expats on this forum who run their mouths and argue that the standard of living in the West is inferior compared to Pakistan, and if their parents thought the same way, they would still be stuck in this hopeless country.

 

[Savak]

First of all, thank you for the detailed explanation. Your parents have sacrificed a lot for you and your sister, and I very sorry to hear about your mother. However, the biggest takeaway from your story (with respect to this thread) is that your parents applied for U.S./Canadian immigration in spite of living a comfortable lifestyle in Pakistan. Their motivation was to give you, your sister and your future children a brighter future.

And then there are expats on this forum who run their mouths and argue that the standard of living in the West is inferior compared to Pakistan, and if their parents thought the same way, they would still be stuck in this hopeless country.

Well there are pros and cons, having servants in Pakistan i.e. a cook, driver, maid, cleaner, gardener, security guard and some other helpers on and off for small things in the house are a huge luxury which only millionaires in the west can hope to replicate but in Pakistan someone who is middle class or upper middle class can afford more easily.

The biggest benefit of the west is the law and order, security situation and they were of the mindset it is better to move out and go through the struggle of settling in a new country in your 20's and early 30's as oppossed to later on when you have kids and responsibilities.

It also depends, someone born in the UK, US, Canada will never ever accept living in Pakistan whereas someone who has lived in Pakistan for a good 20-30 years will be more open to it. I believe my social life in Pakistan was a lot better because on a daily basis there was always someone to meet or hangout with, close proximity but here in the west there is a lot more social isolation, people because they have to do the vast majority of things themselves without help from servants there is not as much time to socialize on the weekdays and the weekends can get used up doing household chores like groceries, pending house work, getting kids activities done. The other issue is that most of my friends here live in different cities and hence not as easy to arrange meet ups in comparison to back home. Plus fitting in with the locals also depends on whether you are willing to consume a few drinks and attend parties. Some Pakistani's eventually return home for these reasons.

I can bet if by a miracle Pakistan's economy really picks up and if the law and order situation and political situation becomes drastically better in 4-5 years in a row, you will see a lot of foreign Pakistani's coming to Pakistan. Even now you hear stories on and off of US, Canadian and UK Pakistani's like Wasim Khan, Raza Baqir and others who are coming to Pakistan to offer their services to their country of origin.

 

[Mamoon]

Well there are pros and cons, having servants in Pakistan i.e. a cook, driver, maid, cleaner, gardener, security guard and some other helpers on and off for small things in the house are a huge luxury which only millionaires in the west can hope to replicate but in Pakistan someone who is middle class or upper middle class can afford more easily.

The biggest benefit of the west is the law and order, security situation and they were of the mindset it is better to move out and go through the struggle of settling in a new country in your 20's and early 30's as oppossed to later on when you have kids and responsibilities.

It also depends, someone born in the UK, US, Canada will never ever accept living in Pakistan whereas someone who has lived in Pakistan for a good 20-30 years will be more open to it. I believe my social life in Pakistan was a lot better because on a daily basis there was always someone to meet or hangout with, close proximity but here in the west there is a lot more social isolation, people because they have to do the vast majority of things themselves without help from servants there is not as much time to socialize on the weekdays and the weekends can get used up doing household chores like groceries, pending house work, getting kids activities done. The other issue is that most of my friends here live in different cities and hence not as easy to arrange meet ups in comparison to back home. Plus fitting in with the locals also depends on whether you are willing to consume a few drinks and attend parties. Some Pakistani's eventually return home for these reasons.

I can bet if by a miracle Pakistan's economy really picks up and if the law and order situation and political situation becomes drastically better in 4-5 years in a row, you will see a lot of foreign Pakistani's coming to Pakistan. Even now you hear stories on and off of US, Canadian and UK Pakistani's like Wasim Khan, Raza Baqir and others who are coming to Pakistan to offer their services to their country of origin.

Pakistan is a good place to live for the privileged, although your life would still be at a greater risk because of terrorism and other crimes. However, it is absolutely hell-hole for the less privileged, and that is why it’s standard of living is not comparable to the Western countries.

That is why people who have struggled to make ends meet in Pakistan have done well well for themselves in the West, but a person who is struggling in the West will not be able to make things better for himself if he comes to Pakistan.

Even if things get better in the next few years, I don’t see expats coming back in hordes. Ultimately, Pakistan is still an underdeveloped country (no need of calling it developing because it will never develop), and the standard of living is incomparable to the first world. It is not just about you as an individual but also your future generations.

For example, if I knew that there is a possibility that my children would financially struggle in Pakistan after I am dead, I would have never returned from the U.S. my troubles in adjusting to live in the U.S. and my life of comfort here mean nothing to me when it comes to the future of my children.

The examples of Raza Baqir and Wasim Khan are extremes. Raza Baqir is Governor State Bank and Wasim Khan is earning 40 lakhs per month with free accommodation and official level security.

A regular man - a doctor, accountant, engineer, banker etc. would rarely contemplate returning to Pakistan because it is simply not worth it. Not only are they going to compromise their earnings, they are more importantly also derailing the future of their children.

Look around this forum. There are dozens of expat Pakistanis who are hardcore PTI supporters and think that Imran Khan will make things better in the future. However, I can guarantee you that no one of them will pack their bags and return to Pakistan for good in a few years.

 

[Technics 1210]

So there we have it, a patriot who despises everything Pakistan, and hates PTI/IK despite voting for PTI, is the self proclaimed beacon of truth and integrity.

You couldn't make it up.

 

[cricket_cfa]

Why not give cnic only to filer
Govt should get everyone to pay taxes and not only salaried person.... Everyone in Pakistan should be filer.... And becoming filer should be automatic and easy...

 

[Markhor]

[MENTION=253]the Great Khan[/MENTION]

Firstly, I am not in the U.S. anymore. I was there from 2016 to 2018, but I am back now for good. If you don't trust me, you can ask the mods to check my IP.

Before you I propose my solution, allow me to first clarify what my problem with Imran Khan is.

Imran Khan is a power hungry narcissist and a con-man who has taken millions of gullible fools for a ride. He suffers from very high grade Messiah complex - had he lived a thousand years ago, he would have started his own religion.

He is no revolutionist. A true revolutionist does not compromise his beliefs, his virtues and the manifesto of his political struggle to come into power. That is exactly what Imran Khan has done in the last 6 years.

If you go back to around 2010-2011 (when his movement really took off) and compare to what he said then to what he is doing now, he has taken a complete U-turn on almost everything. The 2013 election started his decline, and his U-turn on electables cost him many supporters because it was a slap in the face for them.

By allowing every lota to join his party from PMLQ, PPP and PMLN as long as they brought their vote bank with them to help him become the PM, he completely flushed PTI's manifesto down the toilet. He promised to get rid of these individuals who did nothing for the country in the past, but all he did was join them once he realised that he cannot become the PM without them.

He also somehow convinced his brainwashed cult followers that if the leader is honest, the people who are below him work with honesty as well. That is utter rubbish and it has been disproved already.

Secondly, he decided to become the Military's puppet to win the election. Today, he is playing the same role as Nawaz back in the 90's. This is the same Imran who called Pakistan military "a bull in China shop" and guilty of extra-judicially killings.

Do you think he has the guts to say that today?

Imran claims that he fights for democracy, but he has sided with the most undemocratic institution in the country - an institution that has dictated Pakistan's foreign policy as well as internal politics to serve its own interests.

Up until 2013, Imran fought for the people. After 2013, he has fought for himself and his quest to become the PM no matter what. In the last few years, his entire politics has been built on insulting and making accusations against Nawaz and Zardari.

He has been preoccupied with what they have done rather what he will do if or when he comes into power. That is why the he failed in KP and now he is failing at a federal level. He is under-prepared because he doesn't focus on his objectives. His government has been a circus so far because he has no idea what he is doing, and he has no idea because he didn't have any long-term strategy or plan.

For years, he championed Asad Umar as a solution to our economic woes, but then he sacked him within 8 months, much to the humiliation of his cult members who were defending his performance. To make matters worse, he has replaced him with a former PPP Finance Minister, the same PPP whose performance he criticises day and night.

Apparently, his solution for driving Pakistan's economy is to give charge to a man who contributed to its downfall. I am in awe of his wisdom.

In addition, he gave the Ministry of Science and Technology to a duffer who thinks that the Hubble telescope was sent into space by Pakistan. According to his unparalleled wisdom, he will drive this ministry forward, which is an extremely important one for an underdeveloped country.

Yesterday, he appointed Ali Jahangir Siddiqui as Ambassador for Foreign Investment, when his party criticised his appointment as U.S. Ambassador. The official statement was that his appointment was a "murder of national interest". So what now? Is this not a murder of national interest? Or is everything halal for Khalifa Niazi is his newly established Madinah welfare state?

Speaking of his performance in KP, if one can look beyond the propaganda of PTI's social media, the ground reality is quite different. Their education reforms flopped, their health reforms flopped, their anti-corruption drive failed because their own CM was guilty of embezzlement. They also completely botched the BRT after making tall claims that that they will show other governments how to make metro bus at minimal cost.

On a side note, the current Health Minister in KP is a fake dentist, who recently beat up a doctor. As a result of that incident, the PTI propaganda of improving healthcare in KP was brutally exposed.

It is indeed true that the PTI government inherited a troublesome economy. That is beyond any doubt. However, we cannot look behind forever, and neither can PTI hide behind the mistakes and failures of other parties forever. At some point, they will have to show their performance and take accountability of their own poor decision-making.

I don't see that happening, because Imran is not focused on building competencies. Countries are driving by building competencies, skills and expertise and not by eliminating corruption. Even if you don't do a rupee of corruption, you are good for nothing as long as you don't have the competency for a role.

What will a man who believes that Pakistan sent Hubble into space bring to the Ministry of Science and Technology? Absolutely nothing, even if he does zero corruption.

India's example is in front of us. A heavily corrupt country, but their economy is far more developed than ours because they focused on competencies. Their main exports are IT, Pharma, Auto etc. They also have companies like TATA and Reliance who are bigger than all Pakistani companies put together, as well as other companies such as Infosys, HCL etc., they have companies who are industry leaders. They also have companies like TATA and Reliance who are bigger than all Pakistani companies put together.

What do we have? Nothing expect for our "imaan". That is why India's economy is growing at a rapid rate while ours is stagnant.

If corruption was the biggest stumbling block, India would not have flourished compared to Pakistan. We can talk about corruption forever and keep jailing people like Nawaz and Zardari, but as long as we don't focus on building skills and competencies, we will not develop.

As far as the solution is concerned, as I said in the cricket forum, the solution to Pakistan's woes does not lie in putting faith in an Imran Khan; the solution lies in changing our rotten mentality.

We are a very delusional, naive nation that lives in perpetual denial. According to us, we are angels who have been victimised by the conspiracies of India and the West, who cannot see this "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" flourish, and that is why the scheme against us to put us down. Let's get real - the only reason why are in the dumps today is because of our own failings and our own attitude.

We need to stop blaming others and look back at the last 72 years and see what we need to change in order to ensure that the next 72 years are better. It is absolutely critical to get our military out of our politics and our economy. Their role should be reduced to the borders which is the case in every true democracy.

We need to put them in their place and remind that them that it is not their place to interfere in political and economic decisions. They are servants of the state and they are responsible to protect our borders. It is of course much easier said than done, but this is where public perception matters. Unfortunately, our public has been victimised by military propaganda to such an extent that they are now oblivious to the villainous role that they have played.

Secondly, we need to take ownership of our problems. It is easy to blame India for funding PTM and Balochi separatists, but we failed to realise that if you keep your own house in order, no foreign power can fund or influence separatists. Had we managed to keep the people of Balochistan and FATA happy, and if we hadn't alienated them with our pathetic policies, India or any other super villain would not have been able to take advantage of anything.

Even if they are being funded and supported by foreigners today, it is entirely our own fault.

We need to get out of the victim mentality and the perception that the whole world is out there to get us. We are not only delusional, but we are also a very paranoid nation. We don't realise that the only thing that is holding us back is our attitude and mentality. Pakistan as a country has tremendous human capital potential.

If we get our military out of our economy, stop alienating our own people and stop blaming other, more successful countries for own problems, we will improve without the help of a political saviour like Imran Khan.

As far as the notion that expats are hypocrites for not coming back to Pakistan, look, it is important to clarify my position. As I said have previously, if you are underprivileged, Pakistan is not for you. Hence, I have nothing but respect for the people who were struggling to make ends meet in Pakistan and migrated to the West to improve their lives and that of their future generations. I think such people deserve a lot of respect for their courage and dedication.

These people still love Pakistan, but they make no bones about the fact their lives are better in the West and they are now doing better.

However, there is also another group of expats who are disingenuous hypocrites. They will argue over the Internet that live in Pakistan is wonderful and the standard of living is better than the West, but for some reason, when you ask them to pack their bags and come to Pakistan, they start to deflect and change the topic. If everything is better in Pakistan, why did they or their parents or their grandparents leave, and why don't they come back now?

Some of those things are true, but this laundry list of grievances would have more credibility if you didn't vote for this same party amd leader last summer.

 

[HussainRx8]

On the contrary, I touched a sensitive topic. Looking forward to a response full of deflections. You have already shown him the way though.

How exactly has your bureaucrat father helped Pakistan? Please be specific.

 

[Couch Cricketer]

Well this is interesting someone forwarded it to me on whatsapp. Lets see if they actually go after people for tax evasion. Like someone mentioned more people went for umrah in ramazan than tax filers. btw tax filers are necessarily tax payers as we can see from the wealth declarations of politicians and their families.

A

new website of NADRA/FBR is launched containing details of Assets and foreign Travelling info of all the citizens. Every citizen will be able to see his/her Financial profile.
Its live https://taxnet.nadra.gov.pk/itax/ is live now to see details on assets, expenses and lifestyles.
You can see your profile here. Networth, earnings, travels, cellphone billing details, credit cards you own.

There was another post of a few thousand ntn numbers that were randomly selected for year 2017 tax audit. But I am not sure if it a new thing or something already done earlier.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

[MENTION=149166]Technics 1210[/MENTION] I suggest you stop posting about things you don’t know about. You are only digging a hole for yourself. Your lack of knowledge about Pakistan is being exposed and every post you make is simply solidifying [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]’s argument about expats

 

[Technics 1210]

[MENTION=149166]Technics 1210[/MENTION] I suggest you stop posting about things you don’t know about. You are only digging a hole for yourself. Your lack of knowledge about Pakistan is being exposed and every post you make is simply solidifying [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]’s argument about expats

Says the guy whose lack of knowledge was exposed in the gaming thread.

n00b!

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Says the guy whose lack of knowledge was exposed in the gaming thread.

n00b!

Wow. You really got me there

 

[aukhan]

Instead of recovering money from mafias and corrupt generals/politicians they are busy creating difficulties for the middle class.

This country is going down the gutter due to incompetency of Imran and his lotas. Dollar is 160 now and guess who is getting effected by all this? Look at Arif Alvi buying expensive parrots on tax payers money..PTI are bunch of hypocrites.

May Allah help the Pakistani middle class and salaried class.

 

[the Great Khan]

Instead of recovering money from mafias and corrupt generals/politicians they are busy creating difficulties for the middle class.

This country is going down the gutter due to incompetency of Imran and his lotas. Dollar is 160 now and guess who is getting effected by all this? Look at Arif Alvi buying expensive parrots on tax payers money..PTI are bunch of hypocrites.

May Allah help the Pakistani middle class and salaried class.

Your right heres what I propose we do to stop IK.

1) Disband the army. no need to spend money on them as they are all frauds and a mafia. We can sell the planes and tanks to pay off some of our debts.

2) arrest IK and put him in jail. He has sent the country down hill and we need a new young progressive politician. Turn Bani Gala into a museum.

3) appoint bilawal as the new PM with mariam as the deputy PM. Bilawals manifesto where he promised to subsidise 800 odd new public sector jobs through more borrowing will help the salaried class.

4) Appoint Ishaq dar as the new finance minister as he kept the Dollar low and the rupees value artificially high. this will make us look great in the papers and will give the population some much needed morale boosts.

5)borrow more money to pay for ...everything, gas, electric, everything. Also borrow even more money to send back to London.

6) appoint Hamza shahbaz as the interior minister and ensure he is given a new special role called commander and chief of the national police. This will ensure that no traitors like IK are ever allowed to destroy pakistan again.

7) make manzoor pashteen the KP cm. because well he has a nice topi and the pesky army has been disbanded so he can speak for the pashtuns.

8) abolish taxes in the country and tax collection. The rupee is strong so we dont need to worry about anything else.

7) sell PIA to zardari as he is a great businessman and will revive it

8) sell pakistan steel to hasan nawaz

9) sell wapda to shahbaaz sharif

10) make shabaaz sharif CM for life so he can turn every city in punjab into Paris.

11) Rename Sindh bhuttoSharif.

12) Sell gwadar to the USA

 

[aukhan]

Your right heres what I propose we do to stop IK.

1) Disband the army. no need to spend money on them as they are all frauds and a mafia. We can sell the planes and tanks to pay off some of our debts.

2) arrest IK and put him in jail. He has sent the country down hill and we need a new young progressive politician. Turn Bani Gala into a museum.

3) appoint bilawal as the new PM with mariam as the deputy PM. Bilawals manifesto where he promised to subsidise 800 odd new public sector jobs through more borrowing will help the salaried class.

4) Appoint Ishaq dar as the new finance minister as he kept the Dollar low and the rupees value artificially high. this will make us look great in the papers and will give the population some much needed morale boosts.

5)borrow more money to pay for ...everything, gas, electric, everything. Also borrow even more money to send back to London.

6) appoint Hamza shahbaz as the interior minister and ensure he is given a new special role called commander and chief of the national police. This will ensure that no traitors like IK are ever allowed to destroy pakistan again.

7) make manzoor pashteen the KP cm. because well he has a nice topi and the pesky army has been disbanded so he can speak for the pashtuns.

8) abolish taxes in the country and tax collection. The rupee is strong so we dont need to worry about anything else.

7) sell PIA to zardari as he is a great businessman and will revive it

8) sell pakistan steel to hasan nawaz

9) sell wapda to shahbaaz sharif

10) make shabaaz sharif CM for life so he can turn every city in punjab into Paris.

11) Rename Sindh bhuttoSharif.

12) Sell gwadar to the USA

What a stupid reply. What else can we expect from ignorant Imran worshiping expats who know nothing about the life of a middle class Pakistani. How long are you gonna blame previous governments for Imran's failures?

 

[Asim_khan]

Your right heres what I propose we do to stop IK.

1) Disband the army. no need to spend money on them as they are all frauds and a mafia. We can sell the planes and tanks to pay off some of our debts.

2) arrest IK and put him in jail. He has sent the country down hill and we need a new young progressive politician. Turn Bani Gala into a museum.

3) appoint bilawal as the new PM with mariam as the deputy PM. Bilawals manifesto where he promised to subsidise 800 odd new public sector jobs through more borrowing will help the salaried class.

4) Appoint Ishaq dar as the new finance minister as he kept the Dollar low and the rupees value artificially high. this will make us look great in the papers and will give the population some much needed morale boosts.

5)borrow more money to pay for ...everything, gas, electric, everything. Also borrow even more money to send back to London.

6) appoint Hamza shahbaz as the interior minister and ensure he is given a new special role called commander and chief of the national police. This will ensure that no traitors like IK are ever allowed to destroy pakistan again.

7) make manzoor pashteen the KP cm. because well he has a nice topi and the pesky army has been disbanded so he can speak for the pashtuns.

8) abolish taxes in the country and tax collection. The rupee is strong so we dont need to worry about anything else.

7) sell PIA to zardari as he is a great businessman and will revive it

8) sell pakistan steel to hasan nawaz

9) sell wapda to shahbaaz sharif

10) make shabaaz sharif CM for life so he can turn every city in punjab into Paris.

11) Rename Sindh bhuttoSharif.

12) Sell gwadar to the USA

I see you've read Hussain Haqqani's "Steps to get Pakistan on the road to recovery" too.

Great post!

 

[the Great Khan]

What a stupid reply. What else can we expect from ignorant Imran worshiping expats who know nothing about the life of a middle class Pakistani. How long are you gonna blame previous governments for Imran's failures?

yup. Your right, I'm a stupid expat so what do I know right? I mean lets just keep borrowing and kicking the can down the road. Is that what middle class pakistanis want?

In other words middle class pakistanis are happy with their PM if he loots, steals and takes the money out of the country as long as they dont have to face too many hardships..ok understood..

As for how long i'm gonna blame past governments, well they were in power for 30 years and failed to give you even a basic health care system, but I guess thats fine. They failed to collect tax, but thats fine I guess. they failed to save your children from dying of polio but thats fine..so forget Imran lets bring them back..

Your post is indicative of a fool who has been fooled for so long that he cant even tell what is foolish anymore..

 

[Hamza_]

Imran Khan is going to fail Pakistan

 

[the Great Khan]

Imran Khan is going to fail Pakistan

Pakistan has been failed by pakistanis..they will continue to fail it..

you can vote him out in the next election..bhutto is waiting to save you

 

[Syed1]

Pakistan has been failed by pakistanis..they will continue to fail it..

you can vote him out in the next election..bhutto is waiting to save you

For some of these folks jamhooriat is only acceptable when their guy is the victor.

 

[Hamza_]

Prices have sky rocketed.

It is almost impossible to live here. Cant even construct a home now such is the situation

 

[the Great Khan]

Prices have sky rocketed.

It is almost impossible to live here. Cant even construct a home now such is the situation

All I can say is be patient and give him a chance..if in your opinion he hasn't done anything for you in five years then vote him out. austerity is a nightmare solution but its the only solution at the moment. The country is in heavy debt yet must pay its bills at the same time. I feel for the ordinary people.

 

[the Great Khan]

For some of these folks jamhooriat is only acceptable when their guy is the victor.

I hate to comment too much on people who live there but I have spoken to a few people some PMLN fans who hate him no matter what and others who hate nawaz. He cant win. its a no win scenario that they left on purpose to watch him fail. they would then sweep in again like Mandela's and rule for 30 years while putting him in jail.

that is not happening ever!! they can forget about it. they should be lucky they are still alive. People don't realise the security breaches they caused and the danger the country was put in by them.

 

[aukhan]

Prices have sky rocketed.

It is almost impossible to live here. Cant even construct a home now such is the situation

These expats who earn in dollars, euro, dirhams and pounds should keep their mouth shut. The money they are making is getting double every month and us the middle and salaried class who are directly infected by all this inflation can forget about buying property/home.

 

[Savak]

These expats who earn in dollars, euro, dirhams and pounds should keep their mouth shut. The money they are making is getting double every month and us the middle and salaried class who are directly infected by all this inflation can forget about buying property/home.

Expat expenses are in dollars, euros, dirhams too my friend. Buying property in the west is no easy task either. Buying a decent home for a family will cost a minimum of $1 million in Toronto and in order to obtain a mortgage you need to put down 20%, provide some collateral and have a strong credit history.

 

[Technics 1210]

Expat expenses are in dollars, euros, dirhams too my friend. Buying property in the west is no easy task either. Buying a decent home for a family will cost a minimum of $1 million in Toronto and in order to obtain a mortgage you need to put down 20%, provide some collateral and have a strong credit history.

Indeed. These people think life in the West is easy, when it's far from it.

Getting on the property ladder is one thing, in the UK, if you inherit a property from your parents (or anyone else), then the government demands a 40% *death tax*.

 

[WebGuru]

These expats who earn in dollars, euro, dirhams and pounds should keep their mouth shut. The money they are making is getting double every month and us the middle and salaried class who are directly infected by all this inflation can forget about buying property/home.

Many expats with investments in real estate are also going to suffer because of dollars price. Imagine getting a property for 10 million rupees ($100,000 at that time) 2-3 years ago and thn selling it for 12 million rupees ($75,000) today.

 

[Syed1]

These expats who earn in dollars, euro, dirhams and pounds should keep their mouth shut. The money they are making is getting double every month and us the middle and salaried class who are directly infected by all this inflation can forget about buying property/home.

The expats are earning in dollars and spending in dollars, ruppee fluctuation has nothing to do with it. Unless they have business and property in Pakistan. Even then they are losing money in dollar terms because property prices aren't rising at the same rate as ruppee devaluation. Don't run mouth without knowledge.

 

[aukhan]

The expats are earning in dollars and spending in dollars, ruppee fluctuation has nothing to do with it. Unless they have business and property in Pakistan. Even then they are losing money in dollar terms because property prices aren't rising at the same rate as ruppee devaluation. Don't run mouth without knowledge.

I will continue to run my mouth, i have my stakes here and i'm effected by the policies everyday..its you idiotic lot who needs to stop running their mouth when it comes to Pakistan. This is not about your survival neither it is effecting you so keep your mouth shut.

 

[Syed1]

I will continue to run my mouth, i have my stakes here and i'm effected by the policies everyday..its you idiotic lot who needs to stop running their mouth when it comes to Pakistan. This is not about your survival neither it is effecting you so keep your mouth shut.

Haha showing your Noora mentality. Shutting down criticism.


Here is a fun fact for you kid, I voted in the elections and helped send Arif Alvi to the assembly. I was also first hand responsible for PTI winning 15 seats from Karachi. I have as much say as you or anyone else. And if PTI policies cause hardships for Nawaz supporters then that is an added benefit. Long may they continue

 

[aukhan]

Haha showing your Noora mentality. Shutting down criticism.


Here is a fun fact for you kid, I voted in the elections and helped send Arif Alvi to the assembly. I was also first hand responsible for PTI winning 15 seats from Karachi. I have as much say as you or anyone else. And if PTI policies cause hardships for Nawaz supporters then that is an added benefit. Long may they continue

Well this just exposes your ignorant elitist mentality if you think PTI policies are causing hardships for his opponents only. You rich Defence/Clifton expats really know nothing about the difficult situation of middle class.

 

[slipcatch]

COAS Gen Bajwa points to 'fiscal mismanagement' as reason behind Pakistan's economic woes


Army Chief Gen Qamar Javed Bajwa on Friday blamed “fiscal mismanagement” for the country's economic woes, days after he was appointed to a newly formed committee responsible for steering the economy.

The comments come days before the board of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) is due to decide whether to approve a $6 billion bailout for the country, which is trying to avoid a balance of payments crisis. Prime Minister Imran Khan has blamed previous governments for the country's economic problems.

The country's economic outlook has sharply deteriorated over the past year. Growth is expected to come in at 3.3 per cent this fiscal year, ending at the end of this month, compared with 5.2pc the previous year. It is forecast to ease to 2.4pc in the next financial year.

Inflation, at 9pc in May, is likely to rise to 11-13pc during fiscal year 2019-20, according to official forecasts. In its annual budget statement, the government said that it expected a fiscal deficit of 7.1pc this year, down from 7.2pc the previous year. The rupee has lost more than 50pc of its value since December 2017.

“We're going through a difficult economic situation due to fiscal mismanagement,” Gen Bajwa told a seminar at Islamabad's National Defence University, according to a statement issued by the Inter-Services Public Relations.

“We understand that the government has gone for difficult but quintessential decisions for long-term benefits and what we're doing is playing our part,” he said.

Gen Bajwa told the seminar that the military was doing its bit to confront the economic challenges by cutting costs. The defence budget was increased by 20pc last year but the military decided to forgo a big increase in FY 2019-20.

Last week, the government made Gen Bajwa a member of the National Development Council, which is headed by the premier and has been given the responsibility of making major economic decisions.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1490923/c...ment-as-reason-behind-pakistans-economic-woes

Pakistan is not changing, Pakistan has changed, and corrupt family dynastic politician aren't coming back.

 

[Savak]

Indeed. These people think life in the West is easy, when it's far from it.

Getting on the property ladder is one thing, in the UK, if you inherit a property from your parents (or anyone else), then the government demands a 40% *death tax*.

A lot of these people are demanding things from the govt and expect the govt to bleed, suffer for the nations economic problems, mismanagement without playing their due role. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Syed1]

[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] [MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] [MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION]

Did you guys read the news today that Ishaq Dar is shutting down his school in the UAE because of financial issues? So dollar Dar was running a school in the UAE called the Ontario School or something like that which taught Canadian school curriculum from KG to Grade 10. The fees charged was Dh 28,000 - Dh 56,000 per year. To give you a perspective Dh 56,000 translates to roughly C$ 20,000 which is close to the annual international student fees for universities in Canada. Who are these amazingly rich parents who are dishing out so much money for primary/secondary education and still dollar Dar is running a loss? A person who cannot even run a school was entrusted with running the economy of the entire country.


This school was established in 2014 right when they came to power and now that money laundering has stopped there is no need for the school any more. This school was just a front for transferring ill gotten money from Pak to dollar Dar's accounts using "tuition fees" as an excuse.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Whats the inflation rate in Pakistan?

What will IK do? With depleted Forex reserves, he cant defend the pkr.Pkr will fall. With currency devaluation, inflation will rise.
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] pointed out that pakistan doesnot have hi tech heavy industries to export and take advantage of a weak currency. But these industries will not crop up in a day or year. In India it took 40-50 years for these industries to mature. But if pakistan continues on economic liberalisation, slowly companies will set up hi tech companies. .

Pakistan also has another unique problem. Its surrounded by two major economies. While one market is difficult to access, other market is taking advantage of pakistan's condition and flooding the pak market with its stuff, while limiting the access of pak companies.

 

[shaaik]

[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] [MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] [MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION]

Did you guys read the news today that Ishaq Dar is shutting down his school in the UAE because of financial issues? So dollar Dar was running a school in the UAE called the Ontario School or something like that which taught Canadian school curriculum from KG to Grade 10. The fees charged was Dh 28,000 - Dh 56,000 per year. To give you a perspective Dh 56,000 translates to roughly C$ 20,000 which is close to the annual international student fees for universities in Canada. Who are these amazingly rich parents who are dishing out so much money for primary/secondary education and still dollar Dar is running a loss? A person who cannot even run a school was entrusted with running the economy of the entire country.


This school was established in 2014 right when they came to power and now that money laundering has stopped there is no need for the school any more. This school was just a front for transferring ill gotten money from Pak to dollar Dar's accounts using "tuition fees" as an excuse.

This shameless buffoon should be brought back to Pakistan at the earliest and whipped to death..

 

[WebGuru]

[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] [MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] [MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION]

Did you guys read the news today that Ishaq Dar is shutting down his school in the UAE because of financial issues? So dollar Dar was running a school in the UAE called the Ontario School or something like that which taught Canadian school curriculum from KG to Grade 10. The fees charged was Dh 28,000 - Dh 56,000 per year. To give you a perspective Dh 56,000 translates to roughly C$ 20,000 which is close to the annual international student fees for universities in Canada. Who are these amazingly rich parents who are dishing out so much money for primary/secondary education and still dollar Dar is running a loss? A person who cannot even run a school was entrusted with running the economy of the entire country.


This school was established in 2014 right when they came to power and now that money laundering has stopped there is no need for the school any more. This school was just a front for transferring ill gotten money from Pak to dollar Dar's accounts using "tuition fees" as an excuse.

Yea heard a few years ago that the money he laundered from Pak to UAE was spent to setup businesses for his son but wasn't aware of this school system. I just hope the rumors that UK is going to handover him to us next month is true. He was an economic terrorist and we need to make an example of him.

His son is also the son in law of NS

 

[Bewal Express]

[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] [MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] [MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION]

Did you guys read the news today that Ishaq Dar is shutting down his school in the UAE because of financial issues? So dollar Dar was running a school in the UAE called the Ontario School or something like that which taught Canadian school curriculum from KG to Grade 10. The fees charged was Dh 28,000 - Dh 56,000 per year. To give you a perspective Dh 56,000 translates to roughly C$ 20,000 which is close to the annual international student fees for universities in Canada. Who are these amazingly rich parents who are dishing out so much money for primary/secondary education and still dollar Dar is running a loss? A person who cannot even run a school was entrusted with running the economy of the entire country.


This school was established in 2014 right when they came to power and now that money laundering has stopped there is no need for the school any more. This school was just a front for transferring ill gotten money from Pak to dollar Dar's accounts using "tuition fees" as an excuse.

No wonder he ran. It will be interesting to see if this was also some money laundering scam from him.

 

[Mamoon]

COAS Gen Bajwa points to 'fiscal mismanagement' as reason behind Pakistan's economic woes


Army Chief Gen Qamar Javed Bajwa on Friday blamed “fiscal mismanagement” for the country's economic woes, days after he was appointed to a newly formed committee responsible for steering the economy.

The comments come days before the board of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) is due to decide whether to approve a $6 billion bailout for the country, which is trying to avoid a balance of payments crisis. Prime Minister Imran Khan has blamed previous governments for the country's economic problems.

The country's economic outlook has sharply deteriorated over the past year. Growth is expected to come in at 3.3 per cent this fiscal year, ending at the end of this month, compared with 5.2pc the previous year. It is forecast to ease to 2.4pc in the next financial year.

Inflation, at 9pc in May, is likely to rise to 11-13pc during fiscal year 2019-20, according to official forecasts. In its annual budget statement, the government said that it expected a fiscal deficit of 7.1pc this year, down from 7.2pc the previous year. The rupee has lost more than 50pc of its value since December 2017.

“We're going through a difficult economic situation due to fiscal mismanagement,” Gen Bajwa told a seminar at Islamabad's National Defence University, according to a statement issued by the Inter-Services Public Relations.

“We understand that the government has gone for difficult but quintessential decisions for long-term benefits and what we're doing is playing our part,” he said.

Gen Bajwa told the seminar that the military was doing its bit to confront the economic challenges by cutting costs. The defence budget was increased by 20pc last year but the military decided to forgo a big increase in FY 2019-20.

Last week, the government made Gen Bajwa a member of the National Development Council, which is headed by the premier and has been given the responsibility of making major economic decisions.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1490923/c...ment-as-reason-behind-pakistans-economic-woes

Pakistan is not changing, Pakistan has changed, and corrupt family dynastic politician aren't coming back.

So the Army Chief turns into an economist after taking the biggest chunk of the pie for himself, and this chunk doesn't include the pension paid to the retired military officers because that is still the federal government's headache.

 

[LongHorn]

[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] [MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] [MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION]

Did you guys read the news today that Ishaq Dar is shutting down his school in the UAE because of financial issues? So dollar Dar was running a school in the UAE called the Ontario School or something like that which taught Canadian school curriculum from KG to Grade 10. The fees charged was Dh 28,000 - Dh 56,000 per year. To give you a perspective Dh 56,000 translates to roughly C$ 20,000 which is close to the annual international student fees for universities in Canada. Who are these amazingly rich parents who are dishing out so much money for primary/secondary education and still dollar Dar is running a loss? A person who cannot even run a school was entrusted with running the economy of the entire country.


This school was established in 2014 right when they came to power and now that money laundering has stopped there is no need for the school any more. This school was just a front for transferring ill gotten money from Pak to dollar Dar's accounts using "tuition fees" as an excuse.

Maybe he was using it for money laundering, but just for some perspective, western curriculum schools in Dubai are unbelievably pricey, and 56,000 for class 12 is actually at the lower-middle end of the spectrum

Dubai is an expensive place, though a lot of westerners refuse to believe until they actually live here

As for who would be paying such high fees, most people with kids in such schools have the cost covered by their employer partially or fully. Otherwise, very few middle class people can afford to end their kids to western curriculum schools in Dubai

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

These expats who earn in dollars, euro, dirhams and pounds should keep their mouth shut. The money they are making is getting double every month and us the middle and salaried class who are directly infected by all this inflation can forget about buying property/home.

The people who live abroad dont have maids, or cooks or drivers. Neither can they afford to send their children to private schools, and they dont for the most part live in the poshest area in town. The living standard of the Pakistani Upper Middle Class, which is most of the posters on this forum who live in Pakistan, is the living standard that the top 5% have in the west. If the the Top 5% in Pakistan wont pay tax then who will?

 

[uberkoen]

[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] [MENTION=133397]WebGuru[/MENTION] [MENTION=142451]Mian[/MENTION]

Did you guys read the news today that Ishaq Dar is shutting down his school in the UAE because of financial issues? So dollar Dar was running a school in the UAE called the Ontario School or something like that which taught Canadian school curriculum from KG to Grade 10. The fees charged was Dh 28,000 - Dh 56,000 per year. To give you a perspective Dh 56,000 translates to roughly C$ 20,000 which is close to the annual international student fees for universities in Canada. Who are these amazingly rich parents who are dishing out so much money for primary/secondary education and still dollar Dar is running a loss? A person who cannot even run a school was entrusted with running the economy of the entire country.


This school was established in 2014 right when they came to power and now that money laundering has stopped there is no need for the school any more. This school was just a front for transferring ill gotten money from Pak to dollar Dar's accounts using "tuition fees" as an excuse.

I don't know about this school per say but typically that's the average schooling fee's for a decent to good schools in the UAE.

 

[uberkoen]

These expats who earn in dollars, euro, dirhams and pounds should keep their mouth shut. The money they are making is getting double every month and us the middle and salaried class who are directly infected by all this inflation can forget about buying property/home.

This is a rather silly statement. People who are living abroad are also spending abroad. If anything, the change in currency should not impact them at all other than the fact when they try to buy property in Pakistan which is now getting extremely expensive due to all this.

 

[Savak]

Maybe he was using it for money laundering, but just for some perspective, western curriculum schools in Dubai are unbelievably pricey, and 56,000 for class 12 is actually at the lower-middle end of the spectrum

Dubai is an expensive place, though a lot of westerners refuse to believe until they actually live here

As for who would be paying such high fees, most people with kids in such schools have the cost covered by their employer partially or fully. Otherwise, very few middle class people can afford to end their kids to western curriculum schools in Dubai

I spoke to a Pakistani girl who moved to Canada from UAE recently and she told me that expat salaries are no longer tax free and that they now have to pay some local taxes due to the fall in international oil prices. Also a lot of companies in Dubai are preferring cheap labour from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh who are willing to work for one third of the prices being paid to western expats. Plus living in dubai is no cheap excercise either so tax free will not mean much anymore. I remember reading an article which stated a lot of western expats were moving back to their countries of origin because living and working in dubai was no longer profitable or economically beneficial for them anymore.

 

[Major]

The car token Tax

ridiculously high amounts.

 

[Major]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

see how no one in this thread talked about the new car token tax.

Because these people dont live in the country, have no ide of the ground realities, but still talk about implementing rules that wont affect them but affect us.

Its like a guy from Hong Kong living in UK and saying that China is doing the right thing against them

 

[Asim_khan]

The car token Tax

ridiculously high amounts.

Need to get Pakistani's on public transport. Shehbaz Sharif's political career didn't die for you to avoid the Orange line. Recognise his sacrifice.

 

[Major]

Need to get Pakistani's on public transport. Shehbaz Sharif's political career didn't die for you to avoid the Orange line. Recognise his sacrifice.

oh bhai, again what public transport are you talking about?

again live in the country to understand the problems.

 

[Asim_khan]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

see how no one in this thread talked about the new car token tax.

Because these people dont live in the country, have no ide of the ground realities, but still talk about implementing rules that wont affect them but affect us.

Its like a guy from Hong Kong living in UK and saying that China is doing the right thing against them

Whilst the world is implementing policies to reduce carbon you want cheap car tokens so you can pollute the atmosphere even more with your dirty fuel in your dirty big engines, this doesn't fit in with this government's environmental policies, what's the point of a billion tree tsunami if you're gonna kill the ozone with your pedal pumping, non ride sharing selfishness.

 

[Asim_khan]

oh bhai, again what public transport are you talking about?

again live in the country to understand the problems.

Orange line, It literally states it in my reply to you. And I call Jehlum home. I voted for PTI the same day Mamoon did.