The partition in Ireland - does it make sense in the 21st century?

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland has always been somewhat confusing to me as a native Brit. It's only a small island compared to England, why does it remain divided into two entities? We have seen the reunification of Germany in my lifetime, inshallah we will also see Korea become one nation. Is it time for Ireland to reclaim it's identity as well?

 

[TSA321]

Northern Ireland: Over 47 per cent of all voters backed the status quo against 42 per cent who support a united Ireland, and 11 per cent who were undecided.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...unity-reunification-vote-brexit-b1798350.html

Seems like most don't want to.

 

[ElRaja]

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland has always been somewhat confusing to me as a native Brit. It's only a small island compared to England, why does it remain divided into two entities? We have seen the reunification of Germany in my lifetime, inshallah we will also see Korea become one nation. Is it time for Ireland to reclaim it's identity as well?

the memories of the troubles are still fresh in a lot of minds, german reunification happened because the german people felt they were always one, also germany as a whole had to give up claims to signficant land in what is now poland which had historically had signifncant german populations. germany never got the areas which were eventually completely settled by poles back, and it accepted that.

i think northern ireland will eventually unite with ireland, however whilst the united kingdom exists i dont think itll happen. if it became about a unification with wales and england, i dont think it would last very long as a lot of unionists have scottish roots i believe.

 

[King-Misbah]

They have religious differences, even Belfast City is divided between the catholics and protestants. Likewise, their issues spilled over to Liverpool in the past.

 

[Dios]

The way Ireland is developing and the UK is regressing, it's only a matter of time before the Northern Irish decide to ditch the UK and reunite with their Irish brethren.

 

[Markhor]

In 2021, the centenary year of Irish partition, reunification is a more realistic prospect than ever before. Ironically, Brexit and the DUP's mishandling of it has made some moderate Unionists more amenable to the idea. After all, NI is now in a de facto trade and economic union with the ROI.

What would've been the ideal solution in the 1910s, until the Unionists led by Carson violently mutinied against their own country, and remains today, is a United Ireland with autonomy for the Northeast. They could retain some autonomy, keep their flags, their faith, their parades etc.

The problem is many Protestants have been raised, ever since they settled and violently colonised Ireland centuries ago, into a garrison mentality. They fear in an Irish Catholic state, a Catholic majority would treat the Protestants how the Protestants basically treated Catholics in Northern Ireland for 50 years - as second class citizens.

 

[Giannis]

Maybe Biden will push for the return of northern ireland to ireland since he claims to be a proud Irishman

 

[sweep_shot]

Are they willing to reunite? It doesn't seem like it.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

With Brexit, it's a possibility and likelihood within the next 20-30 years imo.

Absolutely no need to do anything in the short term that could escalate things. Let the course of time take hold because its inevitably going in one direction only,

 

[Robert]

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland has always been somewhat confusing to me as a native Brit. It's only a small island compared to England, why does it remain divided into two entities? We have seen the reunification of Germany in my lifetime, inshallah we will also see Korea become one nation. Is it time for Ireland to reclaim it's identity as well?

It’s still deeply divided on sectarian lines. Visit Belfast and you’ll see. Lovely place, lovely people, but I would describe it as a watchful truce instead of peace. Right now, the Loyalist hardcore are kicking off about the sea border.

 

[James]

As per the Belfast Agreement, there would likely need to be regulated referenda held in both the Republic of Ireland and the North, and the proposition would need to be approved by both populations, in order for the formal legal process of reunification to then begin.

This would itself need to follow an extended wider discussion across the island of Ireland, as well as appropriate legislation to ballot the public being agreed upon and passed by both parliaments. This is all a fair bit of time away and will require a great deal of honest work to take place, but I can now actually see these events happening in my lifetime.

It’s very important in my opinion that any such process is allowed to unfold organically, and that all of the detail is sifted through and documented very deliberately and carefully. Republicans and Unionists must both be fairly represented by credible, serious people throughout this process. There are large sections of Unionists in parts of Ulster today who are still strongly opposed to the idea of reunification, and there is a risk of further armed conflict breaking out if their views are not considered.

In other words, as far as nation building goes, Irish reunification needs to demonstrate a positive and collaborative political example on the international stage: so, nothing like the ideological battle for Scottish independence — and, absolutely nothing like Brexit!

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland has always been somewhat confusing to me as a native Brit. It's only a small island compared to England, why does it remain divided into two entities? We have seen the reunification of Germany in my lifetime, inshallah we will also see Korea become one nation. Is it time for Ireland to reclaim it's identity as well?

Cant say about the future of North and South Korea but I do hope for peace; however, you do know that an estimated 25 to 40 BILLION Euros were put on the table by Germany for Russia to let go. And that was what? About 25, 30 years ago? So you can imagine the amount of money required to make the mere go.

So this example of Germany’s unification perhaps does not relate to Ireland’s situation which seems more like a Shia Sunni type divide.
The Irish have different kinds of wounds behind their division. However, let’s hope common sense and peace prevails in the future.

 

[Robert]

In 2021, the centenary year of Irish partition, reunification is a more realistic prospect than ever before. Ironically, Brexit and the DUP's mishandling of it has made some moderate Unionists more amenable to the idea. After all, NI is now in a de facto trade and economic union with the ROI.

What would've been the ideal solution in the 1910s, until the Unionists led by Carson violently mutinied against their own country, and remains today, is a United Ireland with autonomy for the Northeast. They could retain some autonomy, keep their flags, their faith, their parades etc.

The problem is many Protestants have been raised, ever since they settled and violently colonised Ireland centuries ago, into a garrison mentality. They fear in an Irish Catholic state, a Catholic majority would treat the Protestants how the Protestants basically treated Catholics in Northern Ireland for 50 years - as second class citizens.

I could see it working if there is devolved power from Dublin to Stormont.

 

[Slog]

[MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION] - how did Ireland go from very religious to fairly secular, irreligious society in matter of one generation?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

If you are ignorant to history then you will always fail to grasp deeper geopolitical realities. The Ireland spit is not simply about religion, it is also about nationalism and hence, identity. Saying the Ireland split doesn't make sense in the 21st century is akin to a foreigner saying India and Pakistan not being one country doesn't make sense in the 21st century. Religion was the basis of this split but it morphed into a conflict underpinned by strong nationalistic overtones over the years, and especially during the Troubles which ended not too long ago in the late 1990s.

The militant side of the conflict may have dissipated but the Irish still see themselves as Irish; citizens of a sovereign state with its own unique culture rather than a part of some greater 'United Kingdom', whereas the Northern Irish cultivate their own unique identity as citizens of the UK. These identities have been grown for over a century, over generations; they are not some throwback to the Cold War.

You also seem unable to grasp the fundamental differences between the two sides. You are only seeing the Irish side, who have always advocated for reunification. The Northern Irish see no reason to reunify because they, according to them, are already part of the UK.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Also, Korea and Germany are problematic examples because in both cases the people did not have a choice. It was outside powers that were dividing the country. This was not the case with the independence of Ireland and the Partition of the subcontinent; where it was the people who made their choice.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

The way Ireland is developing and the UK is regressing, it's only a matter of time before the Northern Irish decide to ditch the UK and reunite with their Irish brethren.

Developing? Have you ever been to Republic of Ireland?

They dont even have proper motorways and good level of infrastructure there. The population is small and population density is low. The capital city of Dublin isnt much better than deprived english cities of North like Liverpool.

The only reason why Republic of Ireland saw a brief period of economic boom in late 90s was because its a tax haven but this is an artificially created credential, which can disappear anytime.

Without being judgmental, majority of Irish i have had interactions with, I couldn’t help but observe that they had typical working class and rough mentality. They are full of hatred of English (for obvious reasons) but also look up to Britain in a subtle and hidden way.

 

[Robert]

?

The only reason why Republic of Ireland saw a brief period of economic boom in late 90s was because its a tax haven but this is an artificially created credential, which can disappear anytime.

The nineties Celtic Tiger was due to an injection of capital from the EU. They overcooked their economy with a housing bubble, but now are in recovery.

I would move there if it wasn’t colder than southern UK.

 

[James]

If you are ignorant to history then you will always fail to grasp deeper geopolitical realities. The Ireland spit is not simply about religion, it is also about nationalism and hence, identity. Saying the Ireland split doesn't make sense in the 21st century is akin to a foreigner saying India and Pakistan not being one country doesn't make sense in the 21st century. Religion was the basis of this split but it morphed into a conflict underpinned by strong nationalistic overtones over the years, and especially during the Troubles which ended not too long ago in the late 1990s.

The militant side of the conflict may have dissipated but the Irish still see themselves as Irish; citizens of a sovereign state with its own unique culture rather than a part of some greater 'United Kingdom', whereas the Northern Irish cultivate their own unique identity as citizens of the UK. These identities have been grown for over a century, over generations; they are not some throwback to the Cold War.

You also seem unable to grasp the fundamental differences between the two sides. You are only seeing the Irish side, who have always advocated for reunification. The Northern Irish see no reason to reunify because they, according to them, are already part of the UK.

It will be very interesting to see how the 2021 Census in Northern Ireland plays out with regards to national identity. Many in 2011 ticked Northern Irish as a minimum, with a majority ticking British also, but also many Northern Irish-born people defined themselves as Irish — either in addition to being Northern Irish / from Ulster, or as exclusively Irish.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If you are ignorant to history then you will always fail to grasp deeper geopolitical realities. The Ireland spit is not simply about religion, it is also about nationalism and hence, identity. Saying the Ireland split doesn't make sense in the 21st century is akin to a foreigner saying India and Pakistan not being one country doesn't make sense in the 21st century. Religion was the basis of this split but it morphed into a conflict underpinned by strong nationalistic overtones over the years, and especially during the Troubles which ended not too long ago in the late 1990s.

The militant side of the conflict may have dissipated but the Irish still see themselves as Irish; citizens of a sovereign state with its own unique culture rather than a part of some greater 'United Kingdom', whereas the Northern Irish cultivate their own unique identity as citizens of the UK. These identities have been grown for over a century, over generations; they are not some throwback to the Cold War.

You also seem unable to grasp the fundamental differences between the two sides. You are only seeing the Irish side, who have always advocated for reunification. The Northern Irish see no reason to reunify because they, according to them, are already part of the UK.

That would infer that the northern Irish see themselves more as British rather than Irish. When the country is called Ireland you can understand why that might cause some discord. It would be no problem if the other half of Ireland also saw themselves as part of the UK, but for some reason they don't. They seem determined to hang onto that independent identity.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

That would infer that the northern Irish see themselves more as British rather than Irish. When the country is called Ireland you can understand why that might cause some discord. It would be no problem if the other half of Ireland also saw themselves as part of the UK, but for some reason they don't. They seem determined to hang onto that independent identity.

Once again you are showing a remarkable ignorance of history. Its all there, you just have to read it. The Irish fought a bloody war for their independence. If things really were so simple as you claim them to be then we would have no nation-states today. But the reality is that we don't live in a global village and identity is a very real concept that shouldn't be analyzed if it is not properly understood. Everyone has their own unique identity and everyone is entitled to associate with whichever identity they want to associate with.

The reason I find this take infuriating is because its exactly the same as someone coming up to me and saying why aren't Pakistan and India one country?

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Also, Korea and Germany are problematic examples because in both cases the people did not have a choice. It was outside powers that were dividing the country. This was not the case with the independence of Ireland and the Partition of the subcontinent; where it was the people who made their choice.

Incorrect. T=Ireland never had a say whatsoever in being partitioned and up to the 1920 Government of Ireland Act it had never been suggested as a serious issue or alternative. The concept of "Northern Ireland" never existed up to this point, and the citizens in the Republic had no say in the matter, it was created because a section of society in Ulster threatened insurgency against the British Government if they allowed Home Rule or independence, took up arms, and an artificial statelet was created to ensure they remained in power for ever, theoretically anyway, as we can see today Unionism no longer holds power in government.

You need only see the fact that one third of Ulster was left out of NI to see how artificial its idea is and how it was designed from the ground up to ensure a permanent pro british majority, it'd be like carving out a section of Karachi or something and calling it a new state.

A British Government dividing up a small island state so a small minority in the north can have a new country for themselves is the definition of an outside power dividing the country.

If you are ignorant to history then you will always fail to grasp deeper geopolitical realities. The Ireland spit is not simply about religion, it is also about nationalism and hence, identity. Saying the Ireland split doesn't make sense in the 21st century is akin to a foreigner saying India and Pakistan not being one country doesn't make sense in the 21st century. Religion was the basis of this split but it morphed into a conflict underpinned by strong nationalistic overtones over the years, and especially during the Troubles which ended not too long ago in the late 1990s.

The militant side of the conflict may have dissipated but the Irish still see themselves as Irish; citizens of a sovereign state with its own unique culture rather than a part of some greater 'United Kingdom', whereas the Northern Irish cultivate their own unique identity as citizens of the UK. These identities have been grown for over a century, over generations; they are not some throwback to the Cold War.

You also seem unable to grasp the fundamental differences between the two sides. You are only seeing the Irish side, who have always advocated for reunification. The Northern Irish see no reason to reunify because they, according to them, are already part of the UK.

This is a good post though and hits most of the points. Sums it up more succintly than I could.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Developing? Have you ever been to Republic of Ireland?

They dont even have proper motorways and good level of infrastructure there. The population is small and population density is low. The capital city of Dublin isnt much better than deprived english cities of North like Liverpool.

The only reason why Republic of Ireland saw a brief period of economic boom in late 90s was because its a tax haven but this is an artificially created credential, which can disappear anytime.

Without being judgmental, majority of Irish i have had interactions with, I couldn’t help but observe that they had typical working class and rough mentality. They are full of hatred of English (for obvious reasons) but also look up to Britain in a subtle and hidden way.

This is an absolutely rubbish post I'm afraid.

Galway, Dublin, Cork, Limerick are all connected by motorway. I'm baffled at this point in particular tbh. Of course parts of the country in the midlands/northwest are lacking in some infrastructure, but that is not the same as saying our main cities have no motorway for gods sake. Comparing Dublin to deprived cities as well is pretty ignorant and ill informed and again, perhaps I'm wrong, suggests you've either never set foot here or haven't for a long time.

Lord knows it ain't perfect but lets not paint it as some third world dump when it's clearly a developed, growing European capital and one of the worlds leading tech/pharma hubs

The boom in the 70s, 80s may have been started by tax rates, nobody's denying that, but if you seriously think tax is the only reason virtually every tech company has offices here, not to mention countless pharma, engineering firms, you are deluded. Well educated workforce with extremely qualified graduate market, small island so transportation is easy and fast, native english speakers in a massive european customs union etc etc. Of course the corporation tax plays a role but to paint it as the only reason is ignorant once again as I believe there are many countries with similar rates around 20 or lower percent.

As for having a chip on the shoulder about England? By any chance you hardly told any Irish people you've met we have no motorways, our capital is akin to an undeverdeveloped english city, we only attract FDI due to a single tax rate, we're all bitter, Jesus I can't think why they might dislike the English


Brexiteer by any chance?

 

[Donal Cozzie]

It will be very interesting to see how the 2021 Census in Northern Ireland plays out with regards to national identity. Many in 2011 ticked Northern Irish as a minimum, with a majority ticking British also, but also many Northern Irish-born people defined themselves as Irish — either in addition to being Northern Irish / from Ulster, or as exclusively Irish.

The Alliance Party will become a major player in the near future which can only bode well for a society as divided as NI, which will be reflected in the census imo with more and more people having shared or multiple identities as opposed to the old tribalism. Once that happens I suspect a period of modernisation will hopefully follow, but I do firmly believe the demographics, geopolitics, economics etc all points to reunification happening in the future couple of decades.

NI is so underdeveloped however, it'll take years and years for it to become even close to sustainable. Think half of its workforce are government employees which is crazy

 

[Donal Cozzie]

[MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION] - how did Ireland go from very religious to fairly secular, irreligious society in matter of one generation?

Access to media from the US/BBC ensured we always had access to and followed world events/social change which is influencing societies everywhere even today with social media, rapid economic development and educational development meant people could think for themselves and aspire for more, separation of the Church from Government over time, vast emigration ensured again there were always some global influence, particularly in the cases when people returned home from more open societies.

I think the misery and suffering of the Churche days also, people didn't want their children growing up in that miserable society and our constitution requiring referenda for every amendment meant people got a say and any time societal changes came to vote a debate was held on it which allowed people to make reasoned opinions.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

This is an absolutely rubbish post I'm afraid.

Galway, Dublin, Cork, Limerick are all connected by motorway. I'm baffled at this point in particular tbh. Of course parts of the country in the midlands/northwest are lacking in some infrastructure, but that is not the same as saying our main cities have no motorway for gods sake. Comparing Dublin to deprived cities as well is pretty ignorant and ill informed and again, perhaps I'm wrong, suggests you've either never set foot here or haven't for a long time.

Lord knows it ain't perfect but lets not paint it as some third world dump when it's clearly a developed, growing European capital and one of the worlds leading tech/pharma hubs

The boom in the 70s, 80s may have been started by tax rates, nobody's denying that, but if you seriously think tax is the only reason virtually every tech company has offices here, not to mention countless pharma, engineering firms, you are deluded. Well educated workforce with extremely qualified graduate market, small island so transportation is easy and fast, native english speakers in a massive european customs union etc etc. Of course the corporation tax plays a role but to paint it as the only reason is ignorant once again as I believe there are many countries with similar rates around 20 or lower percent.

As for having a chip on the shoulder about England? By any chance you hardly told any Irish people you've met we have no motorways, our capital is akin to an undeverdeveloped english city, we only attract FDI due to a single tax rate, we're all bitter, Jesus I can't think why they might dislike the English


Brexiteer by any chance?

1) I ve travelled on those “motorways” from Belfast to Dublin and then from Dublin to Cork and didnt find em too good (not many multilanes etc) also other than Dublin most other cities ve no motorway connections between them. So you cant really go from Shanon to Cork on a motorway.

2) As for dublin, how is comparable to other large and historical cities of europe? Other than that giant rugby stadium and the Trinity college, what is noteworthy in there? Seriously it does look and feel like Liverpool with narrow streets lined with typical terraced houses. The newly constructed office buildings along the river just look like a budget & functional type of construction. I dont consider the guiness brewery museum as some thing special and thats where the list ends.

3) Tech & Pharma hub? How? Are there any indigenous irish companies there? I know due to it being tax haven some multinational companies have moved some operations there but what is there to boast about it?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Once again you are showing a remarkable ignorance of history. Its all there, you just have to read it. The Irish fought a bloody war for their independence. If things really were so simple as you claim them to be then we would have no nation-states today. But the reality is that we don't live in a global village and identity is a very real concept that shouldn't be analyzed if it is not properly understood. Everyone has their own unique identity and everyone is entitled to associate with whichever identity they want to associate with.

The reason I find this take infuriating is because its exactly the same as someone coming up to me and saying why aren't Pakistan and India one country?

My ignorance of history is not that remarkable, I don't profess to be a student of Irish history. One of the reasons why I put the thread up, so we could learn something as to why Ireland was divided. In fact, your version of it has also been corrected by Cozzie, so it seems like a subject worth investigating.

Nothing wrong with people asking why aren't Pakistan and India one country either. Although it is not exactly the same as you are claiming, it is a legitimate question, and it seems to get raised every few months on here which does suggest there is room for debate.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

My ignorance of history is not that remarkable, I don't profess to be a student of Irish history. One of the reasons why I put the thread up, so we could learn something as to why Ireland was divided. In fact, your version of it has also been corrected by Cozzie, so it seems like a subject worth investigating.

Nothing wrong with people asking why aren't Pakistan and India one country either. Although it is not exactly the same as you are claiming, it is a legitimate question, and it seems to get raised every few months on here which does suggest there is room for debate.

I was wrong and I was corrected. I never said claimed I was a student of Irish history. But you should have read his entire comment where he said I summed it up more succinctly than he could.

But that is not what this is about. Your assertions were remarkably ignorant. You were completely dismissive of the fact that states have their own unique, distinct identities. Not just the ones you know of. And then your point--which I'm assuming is the entire point of all this--is a moot one. It doesn't matter whether India and Pakistan or Northern Ireland and Ireland should be one country or not. Or whether they were founded on half-baked ideologies. The reality is that they are independent sovereign states and have been for decades and the people are not going to simply compromise on their identity after all the bloodshed they have forgone for independence.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

My ignorance of history is not that remarkable, I don't profess to be a student of Irish history. One of the reasons why I put the thread up, so we could learn something as to why Ireland was divided. In fact, your version of it has also been corrected by Cozzie, so it seems like a subject worth investigating.

Nothing wrong with people asking why aren't Pakistan and India one country either. Although it is not exactly the same as you are claiming, it is a legitimate question, and it seems to get raised every few months on here which does suggest there is room for debate.

Actually there is quite a bit of similarity between the Irish situation and Indo-Pak.
1) Protestants in Northern Ireland aren’t really native irish (to most part). Many are offsprings of the English settlers from North of England and the Scotish, who were brought over under Norman Feudal law. Hence they are ethnically different to the celtic Southern irish.
2) Catholics on the other hand not just ve a different religion but also celtic ethnicity.
3) Just like Subcontinent a ethnic & religious minority ruled over the majority and subdued them for centuries.
4) Just like in India, the majority of Irish (catholics) never really were a big power or had a high civilzation of their own. They were just a fringe group of the British empire.

Hence the situation is indeed very similar to the indian subcontinent.

 

[Robert]

1) Protestants in Northern Ireland aren’t really native irish (to most part). Many are offsprings of the English settlers from North of England and the Scotish, who were brought over under Norman Feudal law. Hence they are ethnically different to the celtic Southern irish

If they have been there since 1660 CE I would say that makes them natives.

You might as well say that people descended from the Vikings and Normans aren’t British.

The Celts come from Iberia originally so you might as well say they are not native either. Nobody is except the Beaker People. And even they migrated from somewhere else.

We’re all Africans if you go back far enough.

 

[Giannis]

Actually there is quite a bit of similarity between the Irish situation and Indo-Pak.
1) Protestants in Northern Ireland aren’t really native irish (to most part). Many are offsprings of the English settlers from North of England and the Scotish, who were brought over under Norman Feudal law. Hence they are ethnically different to the celtic Southern irish.
2) Catholics on the other hand not just ve a different religion but also celtic ethnicity.
3) Just like Subcontinent a ethnic & religious minority ruled over the majority and subdued them for centuries.
4) Just like in India, the majority of Irish (catholics) never really were a big power or had a high civilzation of their own. They were just a fringe group of the British empire.

Hence the situation is indeed very similar to the indian subcontinent.

Northern Irish are mostly native though, the Ulster Scots descend from the Scotti who were originally from Ireland.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I was wrong and I was corrected. I never said claimed I was a student of Irish history. But you should have read his entire comment where he said I summed it up more succinctly than he could.

But that is not what this is about. Your assertions were remarkably ignorant. You were completely dismissive of the fact that states have their own unique, distinct identities. Not just the ones you know of. And then your point--which I'm assuming is the entire point of all this--is a moot one. It doesn't matter whether India and Pakistan or Northern Ireland and Ireland should be one country or not. Or whether they were founded on half-baked ideologies. The reality is that they are independent sovereign states and have been for decades and the people are not going to simply compromise on their identity after all the bloodshed they have forgone for independence.

Are you saying that there is no desire among Irish people to have a unified Ireland?

 

[Donal Cozzie]

1) I ve travelled on those “motorways” from Belfast to Dublin and then from Dublin to Cork and didnt find em too good (not many multilanes etc) also other than Dublin most other cities ve no motorway connections between them. So you cant really go from Shanon to Cork on a motorway.

2) As for dublin, how is comparable to other large and historical cities of europe? Other than that giant rugby stadium and the Trinity college, what is noteworthy in there? Seriously it does look and feel like Liverpool with narrow streets lined with typical terraced houses. The newly constructed office buildings along the river just look like a budget & functional type of construction. I dont consider the guiness brewery museum as some thing special and thats where the list ends.

3) Tech & Pharma hub? How? Are there any indigenous irish companies there? I know due to it being tax haven some multinational companies have moved some operations there but what is there to boast about it?

1) The point is you said there was none, which was blatantly false. I'm not gonna lie and pretend we're some metropolis but the claim we had none was totally wrong. As for the motorways themselves, they're perfectly normal motorways lol. May not have eight lanes like in massive cities but considering the volumes of traffic you typically see they do their jobs perfectly fine. There are certainly aspects of this that can be worked on though of course, particularly as I said in the midlands where I originate.

2)It isn't. I never said it was. I took offence to you saying it was akin to run down Liverpool though, because that is rubbish. It's certainly no Berlin or Paris but its a perfectly acceptable decent city. Croke Park, the Brewery, National History Museum, Kilmainham Jail, Phoenix Park, the Zoo, O'Connell Street, Aquatic Centre etc there's loads of things to see. If the likes of Breweries etc ain't your thing fair enough, doesn't mean the city itself has nothing thought, just that it aint for you. That said, if museums and history aint your thing, sure, it doesn't hold a candle to the major EU cities, but I never claimed it did.

3) We export more pharmaceuticals than nearly every other EU country. Thats by definition a pharma hub. As for Tech? 0 Google, Twitter, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft, TikTok, EA, Activision etc the list is endless, all have either their EU HQ or large offices here employing hundreds of thousands.

Are any of these indigenous? Most of em no, but when did I say otherwise? The point is they've chosen the locations they did because on the analysis and reports they did we came out on top for a variety of reasons, tax alone is not the reason why firms establish somewhere. I don't give a toss if they're Irish or not, who does? Once firms hit that size they hardly care about what nation founded em, but for Europea's poorest most destitute nation fifty years ago to attract all these companies here, expand, hire tens of thousands of local people, is a massive success, regardless how others choose to snipe at it.

I mean this country barely functioned in the 70s. You expect it to have indigenous tech/pharma MNC's? Lol, and there are some of them fwiw, but c'mon, be realistic. Look to agrifood if you want indigenous firms, which would make tremendous more sense considering agriculture was about 60% of our economy up tp the 80s - Kerry Group, Glanbia, various whisky/alcohol labels etc

I ain't even boasting, I'm just taking offence to what were some, at best, misguided remarks and, at worst, insulting.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

Truth is bitter. You know very well what i was talking about. I ve nothing personal against ireland or Irish, so am just sharing my observations here.

Ireland isn't really anywhere close to other developed western countries in any aspect. This is one of the reason why there are loads of illegal irish migrant communities in places like Boston.

Its just a tax haven and a place to hide corporate profits by dodgy accounting methods.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-nireland/pandoras-box-of-northern-ireland-could-be-opened-unless-eu-changes-brexit-deal-loyalists-warn-idUSKBN2BB1AQ

Northern Ireland’s 1998 peace agreement is under threat and a “Pandora’s box” of protest and political crisis will be opened unless the European Union agrees to significant changes to the Brexit deal, a senior loyalist warned on Friday. The 1998 accord, known as the Belfast or Good Friday Agreement, ended three decades of violence between mostly Catholic nationalists fighting for a united Ireland and mostly Protestant unionists, or loyalists, who want Northern Ireland to stay part of the United Kingdom.

David Campbell, chairman of the Loyalist Communities Council, which represents the views of loyalist paramilitaries, said he was calling for dialogue with the EU and Ireland to change the Northern Irish Protocol that he said had breached fundamental principles of the 1998 deal.

“We’re saying there is a window of opportunity for constructive dialogue to see if we can actually get a workable solution, and I’ve no doubt we could get a workable solution, but it does require Brussels and Dublin to return to honouring the core guarantees of the (Belfast) Agreement,” Campbell told Reuters.

“If it doesn’t happen, then they are opening a Pandora’s box which leads to significant protest, to the bringing down of the Northern Ireland executive and then into a significant political crisis,” Campbell said.

Loyalist paramilitary groups told British Prime Minister Boris Johnson earlier this month that they were temporarily withdrawing support for the peace agreement due to concerns over the Brexit deal.

The EU and Ireland say there is no reason to change the Brexit divorce deal which was signed by Johnson and is now an international treaty, though unionists say the negotiations failed to take account of their community.

“Loyalists are extremely angry right across the community,” Campbell said, adding that the community was more angry than at any other time since the 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement, which gave Dublin a consultative role in the governance of Northern Ireland.

“It’s an anger that transcends class and age groups - 80-year-olds are just as vexed as teenagers are - so it has succeeded in uniting all the disparate unionist groups and parties,” he said. Unionists say the Brexit deal is unfair as it prevents a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland but effectively cuts Northern Ireland off from the rest of the United Kingdom by creating a border in the Irish sea. Campbell said that as such, the Brexit deal was one-sided and breached the principles of the 1998 deal.

“The peace agreement is certainly under threat,” Campbell said, adding that the devolved power-sharing government of Northern Ireland, which requires the support of politicians representing both communities to function, was likely to collapse.

Northern Ireland’s devolved government and assembly have suffered periodic breakdowns during previous crises since 1998.

“Unless there are changes, I can’t see the Northern Ireland executive being sustained beyond the ending of the current pandemic,” he said, adding that there would be significant protests over coming months and going into the summer.

So is Northern Ireland on the brink of violence?

“I was one of the unionist negotiators in the talks and for 20-odd years we have worked constructively together and you now potentially face the undoing of that,” he said.

“The current leaderships of the loyalist organisations are under extreme pressure from, let’s just say, the young Turks who perhaps see an opportunity to go to war on their terms.”

The main loyalist paramilitary groups were not formally parties to the 1998 deal, but endorsed it at the time and decommissioned their weapons in the years that followed.

 

[Robert]

Truth is bitter. You know very well what i was talking about. I ve nothing personal against ireland or Irish, so am just sharing my observations here.

Ireland isn't really anywhere close to other developed western countries in any aspect. This is one of the reason why there are loads of illegal irish migrant communities in places like Boston.

Its just a tax haven and a place to hide corporate profits by dodgy accounting methods.

Eh? Their economy is doing well. Their society is freer / more liberal that the UK. They score higher than the USA on the anticorruption index and compare favourably in that regard with much of the EU. I would move there if Mrs Robert could tolerate the cold.

 

[James]

Truth is bitter. You know very well what i was talking about. I ve nothing personal against ireland or Irish, so am just sharing my observations here.

Ireland isn't really anywhere close to other developed western countries in any aspect. This is one of the reason why there are loads of illegal irish migrant communities in places like Boston.

Its just a tax haven and a place to hide corporate profits by dodgy accounting methods.

Man, this post is so wide of the mark.

 

[Bi_Jamalo]

Man, this post is so wide of the mark.

Why?
Ever been to the ROI?

 

[Robert]

Man, this post is so wide of the mark.

Since Brexit they are developing port facilities in Dublin and Rosslare. Plenty of City of London workers have moved there too, as the finance houses get round the passporting issue. This all brings wealth into Ireland.

 

[Robert]

Access to media from the US/BBC ensured we always had access to and followed world events/social change which is influencing societies everywhere even today with social media, rapid economic development and educational development meant people could think for themselves and aspire for more, separation of the Church from Government over time, vast emigration ensured again there were always some global influence, particularly in the cases when people returned home from more open societies.

I think the misery and suffering of the Churche days also, people didn't want their children growing up in that miserable society and our constitution requiring referenda for every amendment meant people got a say and any time societal changes came to vote a debate was held on it which allowed people to make reasoned opinions.

[MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION] - I saw a docu about the Boomtown Rats and how they railed against the old culture of church and corruption - and that they were actually significant in beginning to change it. U2 stood on their shoulders.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nireland-protests/disorder-breaks-out-in-northern-ireland-for-second-straight-night-idUSKBN2BQ0NV?il=0

Cars were set alight and masked people pelted a police van with petrol bombs on Saturday on the second successive evening of disorder in pro-British parts of Northern Ireland amid rising post-Brexit tensions in the region.

Many pro-British unionists fiercely oppose the new trade barriers introduced between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom as part of Britain’s departure from the EU and have warned that their unease could lead to violence.

Political leaders, including Britain’s Northern Ireland minister, had appealed for calm earlier on Saturday but police said they attending reports of disorder in Newtownabbey on the northern outskirts of Belfast.

A video posted on Twitter by the Police Federation for Northern Ireland showed four masked individuals flinging petrol bombs from close range at an armoured police van, which they also kicked and punched.

Fifteen officers were injured in the Sandy Row area of Belfast on Friday when a small local protest developed into a riot. Police said the rioters attacked them with masonry, metal rods, fireworks and manhole covers.

The injuries included burns, head wounds and a broken leg, resulting in the arrest and charging of seven people, two of them as young as 13 and 14. Twelve officers were also injured in separate rioting on Friday in the city of Londonderry.

Other political parties blamed the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) of Northern Ireland First Minister Arlene Foster on Saturday for stoking up tensions with their staunch opposition to the new trading arrangements.

“By their words and actions they have sent a very dangerous message to young people in loyalist areas,” Gerry Kelly, a lawmaker from the pro-Irish Sinn Fein party, which shares power in the devolved government with the DUP, said in a statement.

A DUP lawmaker, Christopher Stalford, said rioters were “acting out of frustration” after prosecutors opted not to charge any members of Sinn Fein last week for alleged breaches of COVID-19 restrictions.

The DUP have called for the head of the police force to resign over the issue.

The British-run region remains deeply split along sectarian lines, 23 years after a peace deal largely ended three decades of bloodshed. Many Catholic nationalists aspire to unification with Ireland while Protestant unionists want to stay in the UK.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-nireland-protests-new/northern-irish-leaders-set-aside-arguing-to-urge-end-to-violence-idUSKBN2BV1XQ?il=0

Northern Ireland’s power-sharing government put aside factional differences on Thursday to appeal for calm after more than a week of nightly violence partly fuelled by frustration among pro-British unionists over post-Brexit trade barriers.

Hundreds of youths in the British province’s capital Belfast set a hijacked bus on fire and attacked police with stones on Wednesday in scenes reviving memories of decades of sectarian and political strife that claimed some 3,600 lives prior to a 1998 peace deal.

The latest violence has injured 55 police officers and seen boys as young as 13 and 14 arrested on rioting charges.

“We are gravely concerned by the scenes we have all witnessed on our streets,” said the compulsory coalition, led by rival pro-Irish Catholic nationalists and pro-British Protestant unionists.

“While our political positions are very different on many issues, we are all united in our support for law and order and we collectively state our support for policing,” its statement added.

Britain’s minister for Northern Ireland, Brandon Lewis, said he would meet Northern Irish community and political leaders on Thursday. To the south, Ireland’s government had urged the province’s leaders to come together after days blaming each other.

Irish nationalists Sinn Fein and others accused First Minister Arlene Foster’s Democratic Unionist Party of inflaming hostilities with their opposition to the new trade barriers that their supporters feel erase part of their UK identity. After London left the European Union’s (EU) orbit at the start of this year, checks and tariffs were introduced on some goods moving from mainland Britain to Northern Ireland as the province was now bordering the bloc via EU member Ireland.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson had promised there would be no hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland as result of Brexit, and unfettered trade between the province and the rest of the United Kingdom. But critics of the departure deal say a border is now in effect in the Irish Sea, leaving unionists feeling betrayed by London. The DUP has also pointed to a police decision last week not to prosecute Sinn Fein for a large funeral last year that broke COVID-19 regulations. They called for Northern Ireland’s police chief to step down over the matter.

Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney said a number of factors were responsible for the anger, and that the post-Brexit trading arrangements were clearly one of them.

Foster said on Thursday that when politics appeared to be failing people, some would offer “destruction and despair”. “We cannot allow a new generation of our young people to fall victim to that path or be preyed upon by some who prefer the shadows to the light,” she told the regional assembly, which was recalled to discuss the clashes.

Police said on Thursday that in some instances adults had stood clapping while youngsters committed crimes of violence.

Deputy First Minister Michelle O’Neill of Sinn Fein said the spreading of trouble to confrontation between the unionist and Irish nationalist communities was a dangerous escalation and that it was a miracle nobody had died. Large groups threw fireworks, bricks and petrol bombs at each other late on Wednesday from either side of one of Belfast’s so-called “peace walls” that have divided the two communities in parts of the city since the so-called “Troubles” began.

Parts of the region remain deeply split 23 years after the Good Friday peace deal. Many nationalists aspire to unification with Ireland while unionists want to stay in the United Kingdom.

The European Commission, which is in talks with the British government to try and ease some of the trade barriers, condemned the violence.

“This needs to stop before somebody is killed or seriously injured,” added Ireland’s Coveney on national broadcaster RTE. “These are scenes we haven’t seen in Northern Ireland for a very long time, they are scenes that many people thought were consigned to history.”

 

[Robert]

Horrible to watch these youngsters stirred up by sinister organisers behind the scenes, and completely predictable.

We warned you. Project Fear, you said. Well now it’s Project Real.

 

[Firebat]

Belfast: Rioting 'was worst seen in Northern Ireland in years'

Rioting in Belfast on Wednesday night was on a scale not seen in Northern Ireland for years, police have said.

During several hours of violence, police officers were attacked, petrol bombs were thrown and a bus was burnt.

Eight officers were injured at an interface between loyalist and nationalist areas in west Belfast.

The Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) is suspected of involvement in the rioting in Belfast on Thursday night, according to police sources.

A loyalist source, though, has disputed that belief.

Northern Ireland's power-sharing executive said it was "gravely concerned" by recent street violence and has called for calm to be restored.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has also condemned the disorder.

With police sources linking the violence to the UVF, it means the fingerprints of both main loyalist paramilitary groups are on separate incidents of street violence which have erupted since last Friday.

Disorder on previous occasions - in south Belfast, Newtownabbey and Londonderry - is connected to the Ulster Defence Association (UDA).

Read more: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-56664868

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-nireland-loyalists/northern-irish-loyalists-demand-changes-to-brexit-border-arrangements-call-for-end-to-street-violence-idUSKBN2BW20Y?il=0

Pro-British loyalist militants in Northern Ireland said on Friday there had been a “spectacular collective failure” to understand their fears and anger over Brexit and other issues as police braced for more street clashes following a week of riots. New border arrangements with EU-member Ireland must be negotiated, the Loyalist Communities Council (LCC) said in a statement.

Despite appeals for calm from London, Dublin and Washington, the nightly unrest in pro-British areas spread further into Irish nationalist parts of Belfast on Thursday, where police responded to petrol bomb and stone attacks with water cannon.

Nineteen officers and a police dog were injured, police said.

The clashes are some of the worst violence in Northern Ireland in years and have raised concern about the 1998 peace accord that largely ended three decades of sectarian and political bloodshed during which 3,600 people were killed.

The LCC, which says it speaks for the Ulster Volunteer Force, Red Hand Commando and Ulster Defence Association militant groups, said it was not involved in the riots and it called for calm.

The loyalist paramilitaries, as they are known, laid down their weapons in the years that followed the Good Friday Agreement. But the LCC said Unionist anger had been misunderstood.

“To date there has been a spectacular collective failure to understand properly the scale and nature of Unionist and Loyalist anger,” it said.

The council cited concerns over post-Brexit trade barriers as well as policing following a decision last week not to prosecute Irish nationalist rivals Sinn Fein for an alleged breach of COVID-19 regulations at the funeral of a former IRA leader last June.

After the United Kingdom left the European Union at the start of this year, checks and tariffs were introduced on some goods moving from mainland Britain to Northern Ireland as the province was now borders the bloc via EU member Ireland.

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson had promised there would be no hard border between Ireland and Northern Ireland as result of Brexit, and unfettered trade between the province and the rest of the United Kingdom would continue.

But critics of the departure deal’s Northern Ireland Protocol say a border is now in effect in the Irish Sea, leaving unionists, who want to stay in the United Kingdom, feeling betrayed.

“We have repeatedly urged HM Government, political leaders and Institutions to take seriously our warnings of the dangerous consequences of imposing this hard border on us and the need for earnest dialogue to resolve matters. We reiterate that message now,” the LCC said.

A new protocol must be negotiated, it said.

“We again place on record our absolute determination to remove the hard border between Northern Ireland and the rest of our country that has been imposed on us by the NI Protocol.” With protests planned for later on Friday, one shopping mall in Newtownabbey on Belfast’s northern outskirt, said it would shut early to allow staff and customers to vacate the site.

Sinn Fein leader Mary Lou McDonald said she feared the protests could set the tone for a violent summer when thousands of pro-British Protestants hold marches, a tradition the mainly Catholic nationalists who want to be part of a united Ireland see as provocative and often lead to clashes.

“We have communities that are bracing themselves perhaps for a very difficult weekend, deep concerns that violence might extend further and that this might set the tempo and the scene for this summer,” McDonald told Irish national broadcaster RTE.

“There has to be a very clear call that the proposed protests for the weekend must be called off before people are badly injured or worse.”

The United States, which has traditionally taken a close interest in Irish matters, on Thursday warned that the Good Friday Agreement which it helped broker should not become a casualty of Brexit.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/brexit-barriers-focus-nirelands-dup-kicks-off-leadership-contest-2021-05-03/

Northern' Ireland's biggest party was set for its first ever leadership election after its Westminster chief Jeffrey Donaldson threw his hat into the ring on Monday, promising to focus on the divisive issue of post-Brexit trade barriers.

Donaldson will stand against Edwin Poots to lead the Democratic Unionist Party at a time of heightened instability in the British province and unionist anger over the installation of a customs border in the Irish Sea.

Both Donaldson and Poots, Northern Ireland's agriculture minister, stopped short of making detailed campaign promises. But Britain, Ireland and the rest of Europe will be watching for any hardening of stances on Brexit or social issues including abortion that could alter the political balance ahead of elections next year.

The DUP currently leads Northern Ireland in a power-sharing government with its Irish nationalist rivals Sinn Fein.

Donaldson or Poots will take over the leadership from Arlene Foster who announced last week she was stepping down as Northern Ireland's First Minister at the end of June, bowing to pressure from party members unhappy at her leadership.

Her departure has added to instability in the region, where angry young pro-British loyalists rioted in recent weeks, partly over the barriers that they feel have cut them off from the rest of the UK.

"I will develop and swiftly implement an agreed programme of meaningful reform and clear policy direction on key challenges like the protocol," Donaldson said in a video announcement, referring to the post-Brexit trading arrangements.

Like Foster, Donaldson, 58, is a former member of the more moderate Ulster Unionist Party. He was part of the negotiating team that stuck a deal to prop up the government of former British Prime Minister Theresa May in 2017.

Once the DUP's support was no longer needed, May's successor Boris Johnson broke the party's "blood red line" and agreed to erect the trade barriers.

Poots, 55, is one of a number of DUP ministers who have protested against the Brexit arrangements by refusing to attend meetings with Irish counterparts established under the 1998 peace deal that ended 30 years of violence in Northern Ireland.

Poots, a young earth creationist who rejects the theory of evolution, announced he was standing last week.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/14/irish-language-row-threatens-to-derail-northern-ireland-government

A dispute between Sinn Féin and the Democratic Unionist party (DUP) over an Irish-language act is threatening to derail the Northern Ireland assembly and executive.

Arlene Foster formally resigned as first minister at 1pm on Monday but a standoff between the two biggest parties at Stormont is blocking her designated successor, Paul Givan, 39, from taking the post.

If Sinn Féin and the DUP do not resolve the crisis within seven days – by 1pm on 21 June – the devolved power-sharing institutions will collapse and there will be an early assembly election.

Edwin Poots, the DUP leader, appeared to harden his position on Monday when he declined to say if Irish-language legislation would happen during this mandate. “Time will tell,” he told BBC Radio Ulster.

Sinn Féin has demanded the long-promised legislation as part of the price of rebooting the executive after a change of DUP leadership. It has accused Poots of acting in bad faith.

Brandon Lewis, the Northern Ireland secretary, appealed for a smooth transition. “It is paramount that there remains a functioning executive that is able to work in the best interests of all the people and communities of Northern Ireland, delivering on the issues that matter to them most,” he said. History showed that political stability cannot be taken for granted, he said. “We all have a responsibility to protect it.”

The crisis has flared on the cusp of a loyalist marching season that is tenser than usual because of loyalist and unionist anger over the post-Brexit Irish Sea border.

Poots said peace would be “at risk” if Sinn Féin impeded the ratification of Givan, 39, a DUP assembly member Poots chose as first minister.

“Setting pre-conditions is not appropriate, it’s not respecting someone’s mandate, and we cannot be in a circumstance where we have pre-conditions set for the selection of our first minister.”

Street disturbances over Easter showed a fraught political climate, he told the BBC. “We saw riots on the streets of Belfast earlier this year. And I have serious concerns about the potential for conflict once again on our streets,” he said.

“If Sinn Féin are going to play fast and loose with the very peace that people enjoy at this moment in time, then that is a very, very serious consideration for them to take. Hopefully they won’t.”

An internal DUP revolt ousted Foster, the party leader since 2015, in April. She stepped down as party leader in May and ceased being first minister on Monday.

In a statement to the assembly Foster urged all sides to stick to the 2020 agreement on language and culture. “It is only by respecting each other’s identity that we will move forward,” she said. Foster also said she would now spend more time with her family “whether they liked it or not”.

Under Stormont rules, the deputy first minister, Michelle O’Neill of Sinn Féin, must also step down. If a new first minister and deputy first minister are not installed within seven days an election will be called.

Sinn Féin has suggested it will not renominate O’Neill, thus blocking the elevation of Givan, unless it receives a commitment about the passing of Irish-language legislation next month.

The party says the legislation was promised in New Decade, New Approach, the name given to a 2020 deal that revived Stormont three years after its collapse over other disputes.

Neither Sinn Féin nor the DUP are believed to want an early election but they are under pressure to stand firm in the language dispute. Sinn Féin says legislation will show belated respect and equality for Irish culture. Many unionists, inside and outside the DUP, say nationalists have “weaponised” the language to undermine the region’s sense of Britishness.

Delegations led by Poots and Sinn Féin’s chief negotiator, Conor Murphy, the Stormont finance minister, are to hold talks to try to break the impasse.

Continued turbulence within the DUP likened to a soap opera – there are bitter clashes over personalities and styles – has weakened Poots. The latest member to resign is Ryan McCready, a Derry and Strabane councillor.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/15/uk-plan-to-end-troubles-prosecutions-breaks-international-obligations-irish-minister

Ireland’s foreign minister has warned that a British government plan to bring prosecutions for killings during the Troubles to an end would breach its international obligations.

The proposals would also undoubtedly be tested in the courts and add “years of uncertainty and misery for families with no benefit”, Simon Coveney said.

Anger has continued to grow among victims’ groups and across the political spectrum after plans for a statute of limitations on prosecutions and for an end to inquests and civil cases relating to the Troubles were unveiled in parliament.

As the SDLP sought a recall of the Northern Ireland assembly, Coveney wrote in the Guardian of the broader consequences of Britain’s “unilateral approach” after he and the Northern Ireland secretary, Brandon Lewis, agreed last month to begin a process of engagement with the Stormont parties on legacy issues.

“In our view, this would be politically and legally unsustainable, and would damage relationships and trust critical to the protection of the achievements of the peace process,” Coveney wrote of the UK government’s move.

“We do not believe an approach based on a general statute of limitations would be compatible with the obligations of the European convention on human rights,” he wrote. “It would undoubtedly be tested in the courts, and if it failed there, it would only add years of uncertainty and misery for families with no benefit.”

The latest pressure from Dublin comes as the head of the Catholic church in Ireland, Eamon Martin, said victims “would feel a sense of betrayal”, and specifically criticised the language used by Boris Johnson on Wednesday.

“They [victims] are very disappointed indeed that once more some people believe they have a right to draw a line under the Troubles, as the prime minister said in the House of Commons,” he told BBC Radio Ulster.

There was also an angry intervention by the former police ombudsman Baroness Nuala O’Loan, who described the proposals as a “terrible, terrible betrayal of the victims and their families”.

O’Loan, who is on an expert panel for Operation Kenova, which is investigating the activities of “Stakeknife”, the man alleged to have been the most important British spy inside the IRA, also challenged the British government’s assertion that the new approach was merited because of the relatively small number of prosecutions over legacy issues.

The Operation Kenova investigation had sent the director of public prosecutions (DPP) more than 28 files relating to 17 murders and 12 abductions, she told RTÉ, but there had been no response.

While the British government proposals had referred to a decreasing likelihood of successful prosecutions and recorded that just nine people had been charged between 2015 and 2021 in connection with Troubles-related deaths, she said the reason for this was that the Crown Prosecution Service was choosing not to charge people.

The British plans, which she said were driven in part by the Conservative party’s intention to protect former soldiers from prosecution, were not just a clear breach of international obligations, but a “complete abdication” by the British government of its responsibilities to the rule of law.

A “command paper” on the proposals said the UK government was committed to talks with the Irish government, Northern Ireland’s parties, victims and all who were most directly affected by the Troubles.

It added: “The shared objective of this engagement is to deal with these issues comprehensively and fairly, and in a way that supports information recovery and reconciliation, complies fully with international human rights obligations, and that responds to the needs of victims, survivors and society as a whole.”

In place of criminal and civil prosecutions, the plans envisage the establishment of a new independent body, likened to South Africa’s truth and reconciliation commission and intended to help families find the truth about what happened to their loved ones.

The Information Recovery Body would have “full access” to information from state agencies and could take statements from individuals, according to a UK government document.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/21/uk-substantially-rewrite-northern-ireland-brexit-protocol

The UK has launched an attempt to substantially rewrite the Northern Ireland Brexit protocol that Boris Johnson signed up to in 2019, arguing that “we cannot go on as we are” given the “ongoing febrile political climate” in the region.

But as he unveiled the UK’s blueprint for an alternative, the Brexit minister stopped short of ripping up the document completely or arguing that the time was right to trigger the article 16 provision, which enables either the UK or EU to suspend part of the arrangements in extreme circumstances.

“The difficulties we have in operating the Northern Ireland protocol are now the main obstacle to building a relationship with the EU,” warned Lord Frost, adding there was still time to do a fresh deal rather than triggering article 16.

“We concluded that it is not the right moment to do so,” said Frost.

The proposals include the removal of customs barriers for goods from Great Britain sold in Northern Ireland, and the controversial removal of any involvement of European institutions or the European court of justice in enforcing the protocol.

The European commission immediately ruled out any renegotiation.

Maroš Šefčovič, the EU vice-president in charge of EU-UK relations, said in a statement: “The protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland is the joint solution that the EU found with the prime minister, Boris Johnson, and Lord Frost – and was ratified by the UK parliament – to address the unique challenges that Brexit, and the type of Brexit chosen by the British government, poses for the island of Ireland.”

He said the EU had sought “flexible, practical solutions to overcome the difficulties” that citizens in Northern Ireland were experiencing, but warned that “we will not agree to a renegotiation of the protocol”.

Frost told peers that the proposals would “require significant change to the Northern Ireland protocol … but such change was necessary”.

In a foreword to the 28-page document, Frost and the Northern Ireland secretary, Brandon Lewis, say the proposals will “not dispense with many of its [Northern Ireland protocol] concepts”, but hoped to create “a stronger long-term foundation to achieve shared interests”.

Speaking in the House of Lords, Frost called for a “new balance” in the protocol that would address the disruption to business and the trade barriers across the Irish Sea.

He said negotiations with the EU had “not got to the heart of the problem” and called for a temporary standstill period, including suspension of all legal action by the EU, and grace periods to allow continued trade of goods such as chilled meats, including sausages.

Frost told peers: “We should return to a normal treaty framework similar to other international arrangements.” This had echoes of reports that Johnson’s former chief aide Dominic Cummings had persuaded members of the European Research Group of MPs last year to vote for the protocol because it could be changed later.

The paper also proposes “a full dual regulatory regime” that would allow manufactured, plant or animal goods to “be able to circulate within Northern Ireland if they meet UK or EU rules”.

Frost said the UK was willing to explore “penalties in legislation to deter those looking to move non-compliant products from Northern Ireland to Ireland”.

This would be paired with an “honesty box”, concept which would involve traders filling out no paperwork, but opening their entire supply chain to inspection.

The UK believes this will remove barriers to supermarkets, online shoppers and manufacturers.

Anton Spisak, a Brexit analyst at the Tony Blair Institute, said the move amounted to a “renegotiation of the withdrawal agreement” as it was “asking for changes to fundamental provisions of the protocol, especially article 12, that the joint committee [EU-UK joint governing body had] no powers to amend and modify”.

The shadow Northern Ireland secretary, Louise Haigh, said the breakdown was entirely predictable. “The country will be asking, ‘Is this bad faith or simple incompetence?’” she said, adding that instability had “destroyed trust in the UK government – an essential component of the Good Friday agreement”.

Businesses in Northern Ireland urged an agreed solution to be implemented as fast as possible, warning of severe consequences for the economy.

Aodhán Connolly, director of the Northern Ireland Retail Consortium, said any solution had to be mutual. “Without this, there can be no stability.”

 

[Super Santi]

Having studied a little bit of Irish history and having taken a bit of an interest in the formation of Northern Ireland i don't think the partition of the island ever made sense.

- A fairly clear majority voted for home rule (self government while Ireland remained in the UK, after the 1st World War Irish Nationalists sought independence).
- A Protestant minority armed themselves and stated they would refuse to accept Home Rule or Irish Independence.
- Rather than face down the majority or try and come to some sort of agreement, Britain decided to bow down to the minority and split the Island into two nations.
- Prior to its formation, what is today known as Northern Ireland had no historical significance. It was a land grab by the ruling class to try and ensure a Protestant majority that they hoped would last for ever.
- I think 2 of the the 6 counties (definitely one in Fermanagh) had a Catholic/Nationalist majority at the time of partition.
- Once Northern Ireland came into existence, the British government stood by and allowed a situation to develop whereby the minority were treated as 2nd class citizens.

* Not 100% sure everything i said is factually correct but when reading about the partition of Ireland, it was my understanding of the situation.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/23/belfast-judge-calls-on-uk-to-investigate-omagh-bombing

Security forces had a “real prospect” of preventing the 1998 Omagh bombing – the deadliest atrocity of the Northern Ireland Troubles – a Belfast high court has ruled.

Mr Justice Horner recommended on Friday that the British and Irish governments each undertake human rights compliant investigations into the bombing, which killed 29 people, including a woman pregnant with twins, and injured 220 people.

The Real IRA, a dissident republican group, detonated the car bomb in the County Tyrone town on 15 August 1998, four months after the Good Friday agreement supposedly drew a line under the Troubles. No one has been convicted for the crime.

Horner made the ruling in response to a judicial review brought by Michael Gallagher, whose son Aiden was one of the victims.

On 4 August, 11 days before the bomb, an anonymous warning to the Royal Ulster Constabulary warned of an “unspecified” attack on police in Omagh on 15 August.

A previous police ombudsman investigation found that the RUC’s special branch had taken limited action and had not sent a threat warning to the sub-divisional commander in Omagh.

Horner told the high court: “I am satisfied that certain grounds when considered separately or together give rise to plausible allegations that there was a real prospect of preventing the Omagh bombing. These grounds involve, inter alia, the consideration of terrorist activity on both sides of the border by prominent dissident terrorist republicans leading up to the Omagh bomb.”

The judge said the threshold for an investigation under article 2 of the European convention on human rights had been reached. “Any investigation will have to look specifically at the issue of whether a more proactive campaign of disruption, especially if co-ordinated north and south of the border, had a real prospect of preventing the Omagh bombing.”

The judge did not order the investigation to take the form of a public inquiry, saying he did not want to be “prescriptive”. He said he could not compel authorities in the Republic of Ireland to act but expressed hope they would do so.

The Northern Ireland secretary of state, Brandon Lewis, paid tribute to the patience and grace of victims’ families and said the UK government would consider the ruling.

Relatives of the victims sought the judicial review in 2013 after the then Northern Ireland secretary, Theresa Villiers, declined to order a public inquiry.

Gallagher, whose son Aiden was 21 when he was killed, said the court’s ruling 23 years after the atrocity vindicated the families’ desire for a public inquiry.

Speaking outside the court he said: “For a very long time there’s been no doubt in my mind that Omagh was a preventable atrocity, but nobody wanted to hear that message, not the Irish government, not the British government, but now we have an independent person who has said it.”

Horner read only the conclusion of his judgment to court and said he could not read the full open judgment detailing his reasoning because the person responsible for checking the document for sensitive material was self-isolating with Covid-19.

A British government plan to end prosecutions for killings during the Troubles has angered victims’ relatives and Northern Irish political parties. However, those responsible for the Omagh bomb could still be prosecuted if the amnesty excludes killings after the Good Friday agreement.

 

[James]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-60130409

<b>Bloody Sunday: Irish PM lays wreath at Bloody Sunday memorial</b>

Taoiseach (Irish prime minister) Micheál Martin has laid a wreath at a ceremony in Londonderry to mark the 50th anniversary of Bloody Sunday.

The memorial is part of a series of events being held in Derry on Sunday.

Thirteen people were shot dead when soldiers opened fire on civil rights demonstrators in Derry on 30 January 1972.

Earlier, relatives of those killed retraced the steps of the original march.

Bloody Sunday brought worldwide attention to the escalating crisis in Northern Ireland, which came to be known as the Troubles.

The Bloody Sunday families have laid photographs of their loved ones at the memorial in Derry's Bogside.

Kay Duddy, whose 17-year-old brother Jackie was the first person to be shot on Bloody Sunday, said "it hurts as much 50 years on as it did at the time".

"We did not just lose a wee brother, we lost a whole generation. There's so many unanswered questions, would he have married? Would he have had a family?

"That is a very, very hard pill to swallow".

Irish Foreign Affairs Minister Simon Coveney, Sinn Féin president Mary Lou McDonald, Foyle MP Colum Eastwood and Alliance deputy leader Stephen Farry also attended the memorial service.

Presbyterian minister Dr David Latimer told the crowd the Bloody Sunday families have "tirelessly, across the decades, toiled to clear their loved ones' names".

He said their fight for justice has been inspirational across the world.

On Wednesday, Prime Minister Boris Johnson paid tribute to victims' families during Prime Minister's Questions.

Mr Johnson described Bloody Sunday as "one of the darkest days in our history" and said in the run up to the anniversary "we must learn from the past, reconcile and build a shared and prosperous future".

Ahead of the 50th anniversary, ex-prime minister David Cameron said his 2010 apology for Bloody Sunday made it clear there was no doubt what happened was wrong.

When the Saville Inquiry was released, Mr Cameron apologised for the "unjustified and unjustifiable" deaths.

Police have warned motorists to expect delays in the city on Sunday.

They said some diversions may be necessary and advised drivers to allow extra time for journeys in and around Derry.

— — —

<b>What happened on Bloody Sunday?</b>

Thousands gathered in Derry on that January day for a rally organised by the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association.

They were protesting against a new law giving the authorities powers to imprison people without trial - internment.

The Stormont government had banned such protests, and deployed the Army.

The intended destination of the demonstrators was the city centre, but Army barricades blocked marchers, so many demonstrators headed towards Free Derry Corner in the Bogside.

After prolonged skirmishes between groups of youths and the Army, soldiers from the Parachute Regiment moved in to make arrests.

Just before 16:00 GMT, stones were thrown and soldiers responded with rubber bullets, tear gas and water cannon.

At 16:07 GMT, paratroopers moved to arrest as many marchers as possible. At 16:10 GMT, soldiers began to open fire.

— — —

Jean Hegarty, whose 17-year-old brother Kevin McElhinney was shot and killed on Bloody Sunday, said it was hard to believe 50 years had passed.

Kevin, who worked at a local supermarket, was killed as he attempted to flee the firing on Rossville Street.

"It never gets easier to talk about, even after all this time, for some of us [the Bloody Sunday families] it still sadly feels like it happened just yesterday," Ms Hegarty told BBC News NI.

She says Sunday is an extremely emotional day for the families.

Irish President Michael D Higgins deliver a recorded message to the Bloody Sunday families during a special event at the Millennium Forum.

The Irish president is expected to commend the people of Derry for leading the way in finding agreements and accommodating others and their traditions, and keeping the victims' memories alive.

It will take place in front of a limited number of people but will also be live streamed to an online audience.

The Millennium Forum will then fall silent at the precise moment when, on January 30, 1972, members of the Parachute Regiment opened fire in the Bogside.

— — —

<b>The years after Bloody Sunday</b>

Two public inquiries have been carried out into the events of Bloody Sunday.

The Widgery Tribunal, which was announced shortly after Bloody Sunday, largely cleared the soldiers and British authorities of blame.

The Saville Inquiry, published in 2010, found none of the casualties was posing a threat or doing anything that would justify the shooting.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) began a murder investigation in 2010.

Detectives submitted their files to the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) towards the end of 2016.

Prosecutors said in 2019 they would prosecute a soldier, known only as Soldier F, for the murders of James Wray and William McKinney on Bloody Sunday.

On 2 July 2021, it was announced Soldier F would not face trial following a decision by the PPS.

The decision not to proceed with the case is now the subject of live judicial review proceedings following a legal challenge brought by a brother of one of the Bloody Sunday victims.

— — —

 

[Robert]

Bloody Sunday +50

For those who don’t know, this was an event in 1972 when members of the British Parachute Regiment opened fire on a crowd of demonstrators in Derry, Northern Ireland. They shot 26 people and killed 14.

IRA recruitment tripled overnight as a result, and PM Blair apologised for it in 1997 as part of the Peace Process.

U2 wrote a song about it.

Recently, Parachute Regiment flags have been erected around Derry. Someone is trying to stoke up trouble. All political parties including Unionists have decried this and the Parachute Regiment itself has denounced the flag-flying.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-60115713

 

[Robert]

Having studied a little bit of Irish history and having taken a bit of an interest in the formation of Northern Ireland i don't think the partition of the island ever made sense.

- A fairly clear majority voted for home rule (self government while Ireland remained in the UK, after the 1st World War Irish Nationalists sought independence).
- A Protestant minority armed themselves and stated they would refuse to accept Home Rule or Irish Independence.
- Rather than face down the majority or try and come to some sort of agreement, Britain decided to bow down to the minority and split the Island into two nations.
- Prior to its formation, what is today known as Northern Ireland had no historical significance. It was a land grab by the ruling class to try and ensure a Protestant majority that they hoped would last for ever.
- I think 2 of the the 6 counties (definitely one in Fermanagh) had a Catholic/Nationalist majority at the time of partition.
- Once Northern Ireland came into existence, the British government stood by and allowed a situation to develop whereby the minority were treated as 2nd class citizens.

* Not 100% sure everything i said is factually correct but when reading about the partition of Ireland, it was my understanding of the situation.

Pretty close, I think.

Ireland fought a civil war over it in 1922-23 between the Treatyists (led by Michael Collins) and Anti-Treatyists (led by Eamon de Valera).

These two eventually formed the Fine Gael (liberal-conservative) and Fianna Fail (conservative) parties which dominate Irish politics today.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Maybe Biden will push for the return of northern ireland to ireland since he claims to be a proud Irishman

His family must have left Ireland over a century ago, how proud an Irishman can he be?

 

[James]

Maybe Biden will push for the return of northern ireland to ireland since he claims to be a proud Irishman

One year on from this post and Biden has yet to mention Ireland-related geopolitics during his presidency, although to be fair I’m not sure he knows what day it is half of the time.

 

[Robert]

His family must have left Ireland over a century ago, how proud an Irishman can he be?

And the rest.

Funny lot, some of these Yanks. There are three times as many “Irish-Americans” as actual Irish.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

And the rest.

Funny lot, some of these Yanks. There are three times as many “Irish-Americans” as actual Irish.

I don't mind it actually, it speaks to me.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The partition makes sense to protestants in the north. They feel they will be engulfed by catholics if Ireland is united.

In fact they don't see themselves as Irish but British.

Unfortunately, Boris sold them out during the brexit negotiation and they are feeling even more threatened.

I would advise people to travel to Belfast and if you are able to, spend some time with the locals. I went to a wedding of a friend on mine from Glasgow who got married in Belfast. Stood out like a bit of a sore thumb during the parties but honestly felt like I had stepped back in time. We dont have similar murals and no go zones in the remainder of the UK

Much of the Irish sectarianism has splilled into Scotland and the OP is a bit naive to their viewpoints. Spend some time with either side and you will see a partition makes complete sense for the moment!

 

[DeadlyVenom]

It’s still deeply divided on sectarian lines. Visit Belfast and you’ll see. Lovely place, lovely people, but I would describe it as a watchful truce instead of peace. Right now, the Loyalist hardcore are kicking off about the sea border.

Just seen this post after I posted mine. Watchful truce is a great way to put it.

There is some fascinating 'artwork' to see, and amazing people.....but I went through my trip very careful of what I said and who I said it too!

 

[Robert]

Just seen this post after I posted mine. Watchful truce is a great way to put it.

There is some fascinating 'artwork' to see, and amazing people.....but I went through my trip very careful of what I said and who I said it too!

Yeah, get a feel of who you are speaking with first.

I would love to see Ireland reunify, but the radical Orange / Loyalists will fight tooth and nail especially if there is a Sinn Fein PM in Dublin.

 

[James]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-60199921

<b>Northern Ireland prisons: 'Solitary confinement' breaking UN standards</b>

Some Northern Ireland prisoners are being held in what amounts to "solitary confinement" in breach of international standards, a report has found.

CCTV recordings over a five-day period showed 20 inmates at Maghaberry Prison near Lisburn did not leave their cells.

The report by Criminal Justice Inspection (CJI) raised "significant concerns about the treatment of prisoners".

The Prison Service said parts of the report make for difficult reading.

The report was commissioned by Justice Minister Naomi Long and looked at care and supervision units within Northern Ireland's three prison sites at Maghaberry, Hydebank Wood and Magilligan.

Among prisoners, the units are known as "the block".

They normally hold about 2% of Northern Ireland's jail population at a given time.

The units are used to segregate prisoners who, for example, break rules or pose a risk to their own safety or the safety of others.

Some have severe mental health disorders and, the report said, it was "questionable if prison is the most appropriate place for them".

However, accepted standards of treatment are expected to apply, including those endorsed by the United Nations and known as the Mandela Rules.

The rules are meant to ensure prisoners have access to healthcare and "purposeful activity" such as exercise.

They also define solitary confinement as a period of 22 hours or more a day without meaningful human contact.

The CJI's Jacqui Durkin said: "The review found evidence that the regime experienced by a number of prisoners did not meet the UN standards.

"We found evidence that prisoners were spending too long in their cell without meaningful human contact."

CJI examined records covering many years and made inspection visits at the start of 2021, when CCTV footage was also reviewed.

At Maghaberry, CCTV showed prisoners in the care and supervision unit spent, on average, 25 minutes a day outside their cells - and 20 of 42 inmates did not leave their cells at all.

Average time outside cells at Magilligan and Hydebank Wood were 26 and 89 minutes respectively.

The report stated: "Inspectors concluded that a number of prisoners in care and supervision units had experienced conditions amounting to solitary confinement."

Inspectors also found the shared unit for young men and women at Hydebank Wood, in place at the time visits were undertaken, was "out of step", as it did not provide entirely separate facilities for women.

Overall, the report made 11 operational recommendations for improvement.

The director general of the Prison Service, Ronnie Armour, accepted the need for improvement.

"Parts of this report are difficult to read," he said.

"While I accept the finding, I need to stipulate very clearly that no one is held within any of our prisons in severe degradation or isolation as the term solitary confinement suggests.

"Every cell door is opened every day, on several occasions, and no-one goes without contact with staff or prison healthcare teams.

"But we can do better and we will do better."

The chair of the body that represents prison governors said he was "incredulous" that the report's authors believe the coronavirus pandemic had no bearing on things.

Gary Alcock, chairman of the Prison Governors Association (Northern Ireland), added: "The people held in care and supervision units are placed there because of their evidenced violence or proven danger to themselves or others.

"The decision to place someone there is not taken lightly and there is not a prison across the UK which does not operate a very similar system."

He added there would be a "positive response" to the recommendations and their implementation.

Mrs Long, the Justice Minister, said: "It is right that our prisons are held to the highest standard.

"This report sets some significant challenges. However, by delivering its recommendations the Prison Service will continue to improve."

Mrs Long is expected to make a statement to the Northern Ireland Assembly about the report on Tuesday morning.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] sometimes regular prisoners are put in the CSU / “the block” / “the seg” for bad behaviour or to protect themselves or other prisoners. It’s not a permanent thing - think of Steve McQueen in The Great Escape.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Does Punjab partition make sense?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Does Punjab partition make sense?

No, neither does Bengal partition, or Kashmir partition. I am a regular critic of both.

 

[James]

NI is falling apart politically again.

— — —

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60241608

<b>DUP: NI First Minister Paul Givan announces resignation</b>

Paul Givan has announced his immediate resignation as first minister of Northern Ireland.

The move is part of the Democratic Unionist Party's (DUP) protest against the Northern Ireland Protocol.

Mr Givan's resignation automatically means Deputy First Minister Michelle O'Neill, of Sinn Féin, also loses her position.

Sinn Féin has called for an early assembly election as a result.

The protocol was agreed by the UK and EU to ensure free movement of trade across the Irish land border after Brexit.

But unionist politicians have been critical of the arrangements, saying they are damaging Northern Ireland's place in the UK.

DUP minister Edwin Poots ordered officials on Wednesday to halt post-Brexit checks at Northern Ireland's ports on goods arriving from Great Britain, but those checks were continuing on Thursday.

It is understood those checks will continue until at least Monday afternoon, according to a solicitor for the Department of Agriculture addressing High Court proceedings on Thursday.

Mr Givan said the power-sharing institutions were being tested once again.

"The delicate balance created by the Belfast and St Andrew's Agreements has been impacted by the agreement made by the United Kingdom and the European Union which created the Northern Ireland Protocol," Mr Givan said.

Due to Northern Ireland's power-sharing arrangements, the roles of first and deputy first ministers are a joint office shared between the two biggest parties at Stormont.

Neither leader can stay in power if the other person resigns.

 

[Robert]

What does this mean - more paralysis at Stormont?

 

[James]

What does this mean - more paralysis at Stormont?

See article below… could give an indication.

 

[James]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-60282659

<b>NI political crisis: MLAs should 'salvage' matters from DUP 'chaos'</b>

<I>The Northern Ireland Assembly should try to salvage matters "from chaos" after the resignation of the first minister, Sinn Féin vice-president Michelle O'Neill has said.</I>

Paul Givan resigned from the position last week in protest at the Northern Ireland Protocol.

Ms O'Neill, who in turn lost her role as deputy first minister, described the move as "reckless".

On Monday, she urged assembly members (MLAs) to carry on with business.

Ms O'Neill was speaking during the first meeting of the assembly since last week's resignation.

Highlighting the public apology for victims of institutional abuse which was to have been made by the first and deputy first ministers in March, Ms O'Neill added the DUP had caused "real hurt and trauma" by Mr Givan's resignation.

The Sinn Féin assembly member said: "While the DUP must bear responsibility for that, I am also very conscious that those of us who are serious about showing responsible leadership and delivering for people can and should seek to salvage what we can from the chaos the DUP have caused."

Afterwards, she told the media she wanted to "fast-track" some pieces of legislation, however, there cannot be an agreement now on a draft budget.

SDLP deputy leader Nichola Mallon said her party would "not be falling into the DUP's trap" and accused them of a instigating a "manufactured self-serving political crisis".

"We believe that we would best serve our citizens by using every single minute that we have remaining in this mandate to get that legislation through to deal with the real crisis that people are facing, which is struggling to feed their families, heat their home and cope with the rising cost of living," she added.

The Alliance Party's Andrew Muir said MLAs should not "knock-off early" and must work to the end of the mandate.

Ulster Unionist Party leader Doug Beattie said parties should come together to write to the EU about any issues caused by the protocol.

"If the aim is to stand here and just poke each other in the eye for the sake of poking each other in the eye then we will not make this place better for the people here," he continued.

Defending his party's action, the former DUP leader Edwin Poots told the assembly he was "surprised that people couldn't see it coming".

The agriculture minister said there would not be an executive "to come back to" while checks exist under the Northern Ireland Protocol.

Earlier, Speaker Alex Maskey met party whips to discuss how to progress legislation which is still outstanding.

At the start of business on Monday, he said it was his intention the assembly passes "as much legislation as possible" in the weeks ahead.

He also said he had no contact with the Northern Ireland Office about ending the assembly's mandate at an "early stage".

A new Westminster bill has kept Stormont running.

Meanwhile, a law that would protect the Northern Ireland Assembly from collapse is expected to be passed by MPs later.

It would remove the requirement for the Northern Ireland secretary to set a date for an election if the positions of first and deputy first minister are not filled by the end of the week.

The NI Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern Bill would allow for the Northern Ireland Assembly to continue without a functioning executive for at least six months.

During that time ministers would continue to run their respective departments.

It could also come into play after the assembly election in May if the parties fail to fill the posts of first and deputy first minister.

A House of Lords amendment to the bill, which is expected to be approved later, allows for the legislation to be applied retrospectively, which will cover Mr Givan's resignation.

The legislation, which was agreed under the New Decade New Approach deal to restore devolution in 2020, will then be sent for royal assent.

Why did Paul Givan resign? — the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) pulled Mr Givan out of Stormont in protest against the Northern Ireland Protocol.

DUP leader Sir Jeffrey Donaldson has said it will be "difficult" for his party to form a government after the upcoming election, if issues around the post-Brexit trading mechanism are not addressed.

This has prompted Sinn Féin to call for an early election, after Ms O'Neill was removed as deputy first minister.

The roles are joint and one cannot continue without the other.

Without the two top positions being filled, the executive - Northern Ireland's government - can no longer meet.

Under previous rules, the resignation of the first or deputy first minister would have set in motion a seven-day countdown to re-nominate the roles.

If candidates were not successfully re-nominated the Northern Ireland secretary would then be required to set a date for a fresh assembly election and the institutions would immediately collapse.

However, when power-sharing was restored at Stormont in January 2020, after three years of deadlock, it was agreed Westminster would change the rules to avoid this.

On Monday, the former Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers said she believed the DUP's action "should send a message to the European Commission that the protocol is undermining political stability in Northern Ireland".

"This resignation should should strengthen the case for very significant changes to the protocol and ultimately replacement with alternative arrangements," she told BBC News NI's Good Morning Ulster.

Ms Villiers said she hoped the DUP could find a way to return to the first minister role so "the normal business of government can continue".

 

[James]

Ireland's foreign minister condemned comments by Russia's foreign minister attempting to justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine by likening the experience of the Russian-speaking minority there to Ireland's history of colonialism under the British Empire.

During a press conference in Moscow earlier today, Sergei Lavrov said "if in Ireland they prohibited the English language, what would the UK think about it?".

The comments have prompted Irish foreign minister Simon Coveney to hit back in an angry Twitter post.

"Don’t bring Ireland into an argument trying to justify an unjustifiable war," he writes.

"Ireland/UK are an example of how two countries, with a difficult past, found a way to shape and sustain a peace process, guaranteeing an absence of violence," he goes on.

Ireland was first occupied by Anglo-Norman invaders in 1169, finally gaining home rule from the British Empire in 1922. Over centuries, the native Irish language was slowly replaced by English.

 

[James]

<b>NI election results 2022: Sinn Féin tops first preference vote in NI election</b>

Sinn Féin has received the most first-preference votes in the 2022 Northern Ireland Assembly election by a wide margin.
The party received 250,388 first preferences, up from 224,245 in the 2017 election.
The Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) first preference vote has dropped by approximately 41,000 to 184,002.
The Alliance Party has increased its first preference vote by about 44,000 to 116,681.
Sinn Féin vice-president Michelle O'Neill, DUP leader Sir Jeffrey Donaldson and Alliance Party leader Naomi Long have all been elected.
Sinn Féin has the largest number of candidates returned so far with 16 of the 33 seats declared.
Voters went to the polls on Thursday to elect 90 MLAs across 18 constituencies, each with five seats.
The overall turnout was 63.6%, slightly lower than the 64.8% who voted in 2017.

The Electoral Office has said it is likely that counting at the centres in Belfast, Jordanstown and Magherafelt will run into Saturday.
In total, 239 candidates stood for election, including a record 87 women.

Former Education Minister Peter Weir, of the DUP, who had been a member of the first assembly in 1998 has lost his seat in Strangford.
The UUP's Roy Beggs, who had also been elected since the post-Good Friday Agreement poll was eliminated in East Antrim.
Alex Easton, who left the DUP during the last assembly term, was elected as an independent in North Down and said he had no plans to re-join the party.

The DUP and Sinn Féin are vying for top spot in the election, which comes with the entitlement to nominate the next first minister.
While the office of the first and deputy first minister is an equal one with joint power, the allocation of the titles is regarded as symbolically important.

A unionist party has always been the largest in the assembly, and previously the Stormont Parliament, since the formation of Northern Ireland in 1921.
The DUP won 28 seats at the last assembly election in 2017, just ahead of Sinn Féin's 27.
Next was the Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP) with 12 seats, the Ulster Unionist Party (UUP) with 10, Alliance with eight and the Green Party with two, while People Before Profit and Traditional Unionist Voice (TUV) had one MLA each.
This year, the DUP has been regarded as playing it safe, running 30 candidates, while Sinn Féin is running 34.

The result of this election will have significance for the future of the Northern Ireland Protocol.
The protocol is the Brexit deal that prevents a hard Irish border by keeping Northern Ireland inside the European Union's (EU) single market for goods.
It also creates a new trade border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
The assembly members who are elected will have to vote on whether to continue with the parts of the protocol which create the internal UK trade border.
That consent vote has to take place before the end of 2024. The vote will be decided by simple majority rather than requiring cross-community consent.
Unionist parties oppose the protocol whereas nationalists and the cross-community Alliance Party see it is an acceptable compromise to mitigate some of the impacts of Brexit.
The Northern Ireland Protocol has cast a long shadow over the election campaign following the resignation of First Minister Paul Givan in February.
The move by the DUP was in an effort to force the UK government to act over the post-Brexit trading arrangements.
Northern Ireland Secretary Brandon Lewis has indicated that the government will not be introducing legislation relating to the protocol in the Queen's Speech next week.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-61333297

 

[Markhor]

Sinn Fein seemed to focus more on bread and butter issues during the election campaign and downplayed talk of Irish reunification.

Hopefully I'll be around to see one of the biggest historical wrongs made right.

Never forget it was the Ulster Unionists led by Carson who mutinied against their own state and took up arms in opposition to self-government and even the notion of an autonomous region in an independent Ireland.

That's where the terrorism in Ireland began. Of course we never hear this in mainland UK media who've indoctrinated people into thinking terrorism in Ireland begins and ends with IRA and Sinn Fein.

 

[Robert]

Sinn Fein seemed to focus more on bread and butter issues during the election campaign and downplayed talk of Irish reunification.

Hopefully I'll be around to see one of the biggest historical wrongs made right.

Never forget it was the Ulster Unionists led by Carson who mutinied against their own state and took up arms in opposition to self-government and even the notion of an autonomous region in an independent Ireland.

That's where the terrorism in Ireland began. Of course we never hear this in mainland UK media who've indoctrinated people into thinking terrorism in Ireland begins and ends with IRA and Sinn Fein.

Hello [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION].

That nice chap [MENTION=8]MIG[/MENTION] has persuaded me out of self-exile.

I wouldn't hold your breath. SF have not gained much of the vote or any more seats, but have benefitted from a splintering of the Unionist vote.

For reunification: SF + SDLP = 35 seats at Stormont

For Loyalism to UK: DUP + UUP + TUV = 35 seats

The Alliance, who have not stated their position, have 17 seats and hold the balance of power.

But this splintering of the Unionist vote has allowed SF the opportunity to appoint the First Minister. This grim reality may be compounded into Unionist nightmare if the hated "Shinners" become the largest party in the Republic too, thereby appointing the Taoiseach as well! Right now they have as many seats in the Dail Eireann as either the Fianna Fail or Fine Gael (both of which sprang, interestingly, from the original 1910 version of Sinn Fein).

Am hearing from the Auld Country that the DUP will not sit, unless UK Gov tears up the NI Protocol. That will in all likelihood mean a return to a hard border and a potential resumption of sectarian violence.

There will be no Border Poll unless the First Minister's party thinks they can win it, and they cannot at this stage. So reunification is still a long way off.

 

[irfan]

If there's a referendum wouldn't it be nationwide ie the Republic also votes for reunification? I can see many not wanting to join up with their troublesome Northern neighbours not to mention the financial implications; currently NI only survives because of the largesse of the UK taxpayer.

 

[Robert]

If there's a referendum wouldn't it be nationwide ie the Republic also votes for reunification? I can see many not wanting to join up with their troublesome Northern neighbours not to mention the financial implications; currently NI only survives because of the largesse of the UK taxpayer.

As per the GFA, a border poll is NI-only.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

As per the GFA, a border poll is NI-only.

You are incorrect I believe, under the GFA it would require approval north and south.

Above poster has a point, there's a sizeable minority who want nothing to do with the North given that it has a sizeable minority of bigots and is completely insolvent as a microstate.

I've loved seeing the DUP fail these last few years. They've done more to unite Ireland than Gerry Adams ever could

 

[DeadlyVenom]

You are incorrect I believe, under the GFA it would require approval north and south.

Above poster has a point, there's a sizeable minority who want nothing to do with the North given that it has a sizeable minority of bigots and is completely insolvent as a microstate.

I've loved seeing the DUP fail these last few years. They've done more to unite Ireland than Gerry Adams ever could

Its just the North that votes. The ROI by its very nature considers NI as legitimately part of a United Ireland and wont require a vote.

I don't know much about how the DUP is perceived in Ireland but I think the effect of the last few years of Tory rule in the UK has hastened the potential of Irish unification.

 

[Robert]

You are incorrect I believe, under the GFA it would require approval north and south.

You're right [MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION]. Article 3 of the GFA says the poll must be for citizens of the Republic and NI both.

Three million people in NI. Six million in ROI.

Assuming a turnout of 75%, that's about 1.9 million votes cast in NI and 3.4 million votes in ROI. 5.3 million votes cast.

2/3 of NI voters are for Loyalism at this time so that's around 1.3 million No votes.

Assuming a supermajority of 2/3 is needed to reunify, it would take 3.54 million votes for Yes, of which 2.24 million would have to come from ROI. That's about 2/3 of the ROI vote to overwhelm the Unionists in the North.

So say Reunification takes place and the Six Counties have to bow to Dublin. Are we going to see an ongoing bombing and assassination campaign by Ulster terrorists? A reversal of The Troubles where a dissident minority kicks against rule from Dublin instead of London? What do you think of this scenario [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]?

The GFA was a really elegant solution to all this.....

 

[James]

So say Reunification takes place and the Six Counties have to bow to Dublin. <b>Are we going to see an ongoing bombing and assassination campaign by Ulster terrorists? A reversal of The Troubles where a dissident minority kicks against rule from Dublin instead of London?</b>

The GFA was a really elegant solution to all this.....

In short: yes.

The GFA effectively put the concept of the United Kingdom as we know it on notice. This is why the DUP opposed the GFA so vehemently. It is implicitly acknowledged in the legally binding text of the GFA that the provisions for Irish reunification have already been agreed in principle.

But in the event of violence coming from the North, the Republic of Ireland has a long history of military neutrality — it is not the UK — it wouldn’t at all have the stomach to withstand a loyalist paramilitary campaign of this nature. Ireland would be floundering on every level and would be asking Britain (ironically) and the EU for political and military support.

The root cause of violence in Northern Ireland is still the British imperial colonialism of centuries past. The legacy of the British Empire continues to haunt Ireland.

Brexit is an interesting factor in that its supposed threat to peace is perceived to be the possible installation of a hard border, but the truth is that even if the UK had remained in the EU then the question of Irish reunification would still have come up in the future; just at a different time and under different circumstances — and who is to say if this would have been a more or less favourable scenario?

The (steadily shrinking) loyalist majority across the Six Counties is still present to this day. This is why the British Empire is the root cause.

In summary, I view Irish reunification as a notion that is ideal in theory but one would be difficult to implement in practice.

I believe that Northern Ireland should eventually secede from the UK but I am less sure about the sustainability of it joining up with the other twenty-six counties across the border in the Republic.

Perhaps a society which could emerge in reality is an independent Northern Ireland, with a politically and religiously nonpartisan party in its government office.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] while ROI states neutrality it provided a refuelling post for USAAF personnel and aircraft bound for GB during WW2.

Thousands of ROI soldiers volunteered for British regiments during WW2.

ROI provided special forces assistance to the ISAF mission in Afghanistan. ROI is a member of NATO’s Partnership for Peace. RAF Typhoon interceptors have interdicted Russian reconnaissance aircraft entering ROI airspace.