The Qibla Dilemma - Flat Earth and the Qur'an

[uberkoen]

A question I had which might offend some people here. However, I'm posting it nonetheless in a hope that I might get some interesting insight and possibly some good discussion on the topic.

Do you think Muslims are required to face the Qibla in Makkah because Islam believes the earth to be flat? Because that is the only way you could technically face the Qibla.

Looking at some of the verses from the Qur'an it does appear so.

[He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him]. (2:22)

He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. (20:53)

And [by] the earth and He who spread it (91:6)

And after that He spread the earth. (79:30)

Have We not made the earth a resting place? (78:6)

And it is He who spread the earth and placed therein firmly set mountains and rivers; and from all of the fruits He made therein two mates; He causes the night to cover the day. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought. (13:3)

And the earth - We have spread it and cast therein firmly set mountains and caused to grow therein [something] of every well-balanced thing. (15:19)

And Allah has made for you the earth an expanse (71:19)

And the earth - We spread it out and cast therein firmly set mountains and made grow therein [something] of every beautiful kind. (50:7)

Also, in the story of Dhul Qarnayn the Qur'an claims that he sun sets and rises in physical locations, and in particular that the sun sets in a muddy spring. Clarifying even further the scientific knowledge at that time.

There are several Hadith which also mention the Earth being flat.

If,as people claim, that early Muslims including the Prophet himself knew that the earth was round and not flat why then did they use such confusing language? Why is there absolutely not a single mention of the Earth being round yet numerous examples of the earth being flat?

 

[Smbhayi]

Qur'an didn't mention earth is flat. iirc its said earth has a shape of egg.

 

[Heisenberg]

It was already known at that point that the earth was round. But yeah. How do people determine how to face the Qiblah anyway? You know considering the opposite of the conventional way is also facing it

 

[Heisenberg]

Qur'an didn't mention earth is flat. iirc its said earth has a shape of egg.

It compared it to an ostrich nest. There are eggs in it so...

 

[TahirFan]

The Quran is not a book of science, it is there to explain to us what our intellect cannot come to a conclusion of by itself... it is a book of Guidance.

I don't want to debate religion, just to state that there are those of us, Muslims, who know the Quran isn't a science book which will get you an A in your chemistry or physics exams.

 

[IAJ]

From a reliable source (seekersguidance.com):

"In the context of these ayat, the spreading out can be understood as a spreading of the land in preparation for the bounties of food and water which Allah brings forth from it. As the next ayah in the surah states, “He brought therefrom its water and its pasture.” [Al-Razi, al-Tafsir al-Kabir]

However, this does not contradict the spherical shape of the earth since the immediate surface will generally appear flat. The spherical shape of the earth is alluded to in the ayah, “…He wraps the night over the day, and wraps the day over the night…” [al-Zumar, 5] The word wrap, “yakawwiru,” is understood to mean in a circular fashion, as the Arabs used it for wrapping a turban.

A related point: The scholars mention that when understanding ayat that have a scientific purport, we should be careful, as Muslims, to remember that our ultimate criterion for reality is the words of Allah. We take reality to be what Allah describes to us, not simply what scientific conclusions, often based on theories that are subject to change, tell us. Allah’s words have never contradicted the new and amazing things we continually learn about His creation, and this will always be the case.

And Allah knows best."

 

[TM Riddle]

Why didn't the God just explicitly said it's round."Yo fellas , ermm so the thing is THE SHAPE OF THIS PLANET CLOSELY RESEMBLES TO THAT OF A SPHERE.Period.No arguments from now on.Jot it down in case you simpletons forget and atheists in future start mocking and taking my name in vain."
I would have done that if I were God.

 

[Yossarian]

Put into context of 1500+ years ago.
When the faithful were scattered, at most, in an area of a few thousand square miles, consisting primary of deserts with some mountainous regions and escarpments dotted here and there, and Mecca was no more than a few hundred miles away. Apart from traders and travellers, Muslims weren't (as yet) to be found beyond this region.

 

[IAJ]

Why didn't the God just explicitly said it's round."Yo fellas , ermm so the thing is THE SHAPE OF THIS PLANET CLOSELY RESEMBLES TO THAT OF A SPHERE.Period.No arguments from now on.Jot it down in case you simpletons forget and atheists in future start mocking and taking my name in vain."
I would have done that if I were God.

God says what He wants to say. There are no contradictions in Quran. He only speaks truth. Atheists can say whatever they want, free will. Everyone will know the truth once he/she leaves this world.

 

[TM Riddle]

God says what He wants to say. There are no contradictions in Quran. He only speaks truth. Atheists can say whatever they want, free will. Everyone will know the truth once he/she leaves this world.

I hope his minions don't torture me in the afterlife.

 

[uberkoen]

Qur'an didn't mention earth is flat. iirc its said earth has a shape of egg.

Where does Qur'an say that the earth is shaped like an egg? Please post references otherwise a discussion is pointless if you're just making up random stuff.

 

[uberkoen]

It was already known at that point that the earth was round. But yeah. How do people determine how to face the Qiblah anyway? You know considering the opposite of the conventional way is also facing it

While many people in some regions had known for centuries that the Earth was round and not flat, the question is whether Muhammad and his nearby contemporaries in Arabia had this knowledge.

There seems to be no evidence available that the earliest Muslims believed the Earth is round. Instead, there is lots of evidence that they thought the Earth to be flat as can be seen from the various Hadith and Quranic references.

 

[Slog]

It was already known at that point that the earth was round. But yeah. How do people determine how to face the Qiblah anyway? You know considering the opposite of the conventional way is also facing it

it depends on distance.

 

[uberkoen]

It compared it to an ostrich nest. There are eggs in it so...

Where? References please.

 

[uberkoen]

The Quran is not a book of science, it is there to explain to us what our intellect cannot come to a conclusion of by itself... it is a book of Guidance.

I don't want to debate religion, just to state that there are those of us, Muslims, who know the Quran isn't a science book which will get you an A in your chemistry or physics exams.

The Quran is not a science book yet it does divulge into scientific topics and concepts. The fact that it refers to the earth as spread out like a carpet shows that the concept at that time was of a flat earth. If the Quran can refer to the earth as spread out or spread out like a carpet why couldn't it just have referred to the earth as being a sphere?

Are you accepting that the Quran is not a science book and is infact wrong about some of the scientific topics it discusses or are you trying to say something else?

 

[uberkoen]

From a reliable source (seekersguidance.com):

"In the context of these ayat, the spreading out can be understood as a spreading of the land in preparation for the bounties of food and water which Allah brings forth from it. As the next ayah in the surah states, “He brought therefrom its water and its pasture.” [Al-Razi, al-Tafsir al-Kabir]

However, this does not contradict the spherical shape of the earth since the immediate surface will generally appear flat. The spherical shape of the earth is alluded to in the ayah, “…He wraps the night over the day, and wraps the day over the night…” [al-Zumar, 5] The word wrap, “yakawwiru,” is understood to mean in a circular fashion, as the Arabs used it for wrapping a turban.

A related point: The scholars mention that when understanding ayat that have a scientific purport, we should be careful, as Muslims, to remember that our ultimate criterion for reality is the words of Allah. We take reality to be what Allah describes to us, not simply what scientific conclusions, often based on theories that are subject to change, tell us. Allah’s words have never contradicted the new and amazing things we continually learn about His creation, and this will always be the case.

And Allah knows best."

Interesting point but how do you explain facing the Qiblah when the earth is round and you don't actually face the Qiblah when praying and also how do you explain the physical location of the setting and rising of the sun as explain in the story of Dhu'l-Qarnayn?

Moreover, you're quoting a random person who is providing his opinion on the texts of the Quran. Early Tafsir of the Qur'an infact pointed out that the verses indeed talk about a flat earth and later on scholars came up with a different interpretation of these verses. If you read Tafsir al-Jalalayn that these verses in fact point towards a flat earth.

The point was to not get into the various interpretations and opinions of various people but to actually see what the Qur'an and Hadith state.

 

[uberkoen]

Why didn't the God just explicitly said it's round."Yo fellas , ermm so the thing is THE SHAPE OF THIS PLANET CLOSELY RESEMBLES TO THAT OF A SPHERE.Period.No arguments from now on.Jot it down in case you simpletons forget and atheists in future start mocking and taking my name in vain."
I would have done that if I were God.

That is the point I was trying to make. If the Qur'an can talk about Earth being spread out and spread out like a carpet or the heaven being a canopy over the flat earth and it can talk about the sun physically setting and rising from some body of water. Why could it not have mentioned that the earth is sphere shaped? No where in the Quran is this mentioned. Why is that?

and again, the whole point is. How can you physically face the Qiblah in Makkah when the earth is round. You can't. The fact that you are asked to face Qiblah when praying shows that early muslims considered the earth to be flat.

 

[uberkoen]

Put into context of 1500+ years ago.
When the faithful were scattered, at most, in an area of a few thousand square miles, consisting primary of deserts with some mountainous regions and escarpments dotted here and there, and Mecca was no more than a few hundred miles away. Apart from traders and travellers, Muslims weren't (as yet) to be found beyond this region.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Are you saying when Quran was written and the instructions for the religion passed out it was assumed that worshippers would be few and far between and would only live in and around Makkah not taking into consideration that it would spread across the globe like it has today?

 

[uberkoen]

God says what He wants to say. There are no contradictions in Quran. He only speaks truth. Atheists can say whatever they want, free will. Everyone will know the truth once he/she leaves this world.

I don't mean to offend you nor do I consider myself an atheist. However, does your religion not tell you to go out and seek knowledge? How can you just blindly accept things without questioning whether it makes sense or not? An all knowing all powerful God wouldn't just say things for the sake of saying something. An All Knowing All Powerful God would back up everything He says with logic, reasoning and science. Do you not believe the same?

 

[MMHS]

A question I had which might offend some people here. However, I'm posting it nonetheless in a hope that I might get some interesting insight and possibly some good discussion on the topic.

Do you think Muslims are required to face the Qibla in Makkah because Islam believes the earth to be flat? Because that is the only way you could technically face the Qibla.

Looking at some of the verses from the Qur'an it does appear so.

[He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him]. (2:22)

He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. (20:53)

And [by] the earth and He who spread it (91:6)

And after that He spread the earth. (79:30)

Have We not made the earth a resting place? (78:6)

And it is He who spread the earth and placed therein firmly set mountains and rivers; and from all of the fruits He made therein two mates; He causes the night to cover the day. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought. (13:3)

And the earth - We have spread it and cast therein firmly set mountains and caused to grow therein [something] of every well-balanced thing. (15:19)

And Allah has made for you the earth an expanse (71:19)

And the earth - We spread it out and cast therein firmly set mountains and made grow therein [something] of every beautiful kind. (50:7)

Also, in the story of Dhul Qarnayn the Qur'an claims that he sun sets and rises in physical locations, and in particular that the sun sets in a muddy spring. Clarifying even further the scientific knowledge at that time.

There are several Hadith which also mention the Earth being flat.

If,as people claim, that early Muslims including the Prophet himself knew that the earth was round and not flat why then did they use such confusing language? Why is there absolutely not a single mention of the Earth being round yet numerous examples of the earth being flat?

Earth is not considered flat, neither Quibla is measured by straight line like on a flat surface. From Toronto, Quibla is 57 degree north east, which actually is almost towards North Pole. What I can understand is it's the direction that's shortest to Quaba Sharif. The Holy Quaran is great book of science, but obviously e=mc2 isn't written there.

I have noticed, Emeritus flight actually fly straight North towards Caspian, Ural Mountains to Greenland & then comes south to Toronto, because earth being spherical, Dubai to Toronto air distance is shortest via North Pole, not towards direct north west over Mediterranean & Atlantic (due to orange shape, earth is widest at equator). That air path is almost identical to the direction Quibla is set here in Toronto - around 60degree north for Dubai. Mecca is a little west of Dubai, hence it's coming to 57degree. I am sure, the day Toronto-Mecca direct flight starts, the shortest air distance will be measured by GPS is 57degree north from Toronto. From Sydney, the time distance is almost same like Toronto, but from there Quibla is directly to West over the equator. Emeritus' direct flight to Hartson-Jacksfield (Atlanta) is over Atlantic, not North Pole & Quibla is at around 45degree (over Atlantic). For LA, it's around same direction - around 35degree north-east, But, from London UK, it's towards south east - straight line towards Mecca.

Interestingly, Turkish Air flies to Toronto, straight north west over Central Europe & Atlantic instead of going to north, because now the shortest distance is straight line. Interestingly from Rio, or Panama City, Quibla is almost identical to Toronto (60 degree north-east), which is over Atlantic. Just about 2000km west of Los Angels, from Honolulu, Quibla is 80 degree north WEST, almost opposite from LA, as now the shortest distance is by going west. I am sure, if there was any inhabited large land in south Atlantic, close to South Pole, quibla would have been towards south west, because the shortest distance would have been over the South Pole for the spherical shape of earth.

The Quibla direction from different places of earth actually indicates that earth was never considered flat in The Quran, not by the Islamic scholars long, long before Gallilio or Copernicous. Prophet (PBUH) was the greatest philosopher & thinker ever living, without any academic education, which could be realized from his verses, if you have visualization to take imagination in the context of 625 AD - obviously he didn't have the iMac or GPS or AWACS.....

 

[troodon]

Why didn't the God just explicitly said it's round."Yo fellas , ermm so the thing is THE SHAPE OF THIS PLANET CLOSELY RESEMBLES TO THAT OF A SPHERE.Period.No arguments from now on.Jot it down in case you simpletons forget and atheists in future start mocking and taking my name in vain."
I would have done that if I were God.

6th century Arabs do not know what Sphere is. So God must have used the word Spread out like a carpet.

We can twist religious books as per our convenience. God never says things as facts. Just some vague twisted answers.

 

[uberkoen]

Earth is not considered flat, neither Quibla is measured by straight line like on a flat surface. From Toronto, Quibla is 57 degree north east, which actually is almost towards North Pole. What I can understand is it's the direction that's shortest to Quaba Sharif. The Holy Quaran is great book of science, but obviously e=mc2 isn't written there.

I have noticed, Emeritus flight actually fly straight North towards Caspian, Ural Mountains to Greenland & then comes south to Toronto, because earth being spherical, Dubai to Toronto air distance is shortest via North Pole, not towards direct north west over Mediterranean & Atlantic (due to orange shape, earth is widest at equator). That air path is almost identical to the direction Quibla is set here in Toronto - around 60degree north for Dubai. Mecca is a little west of Dubai, hence it's coming to 57degree. I am sure, the day Toronto-Mecca direct flight starts, the shortest air distance will be measured by GPS is 57degree north from Toronto. From Sydney, the time distance is almost same like Toronto, but from there Quibla is directly to West over the equator. Emeritus' direct flight to Hartson-Jacksfield (Atlanta) is over Atlantic, not North Pole & Quibla is at around 45degree (over Atlantic). For LA, it's around same direction - around 35degree north-east, But, from London UK, it's towards south east - straight line towards Mecca.

Interestingly, Turkish Air flies to Toronto, straight north west over Central Europe & Atlantic instead of going to north, because now the shortest distance is straight line. Interestingly from Rio, or Panama City, Quibla is almost identical to Toronto (60 degree north-east), which is over Atlantic. Just about 2000km west of Los Angels, from Honolulu, Quibla is 80 degree north WEST, almost opposite from LA, as now the shortest distance is by going west. I am sure, if there was any inhabited large land in south Atlantic, close to South Pole, quibla would have been towards south west, because the shortest distance would have been over the South Pole for the spherical shape of earth.

The Quibla direction from different places of earth actually indicates that earth was never considered flat in The Quran, not by the Islamic scholars long, long before Gallilio or Copernicous. Prophet (PBUH) was the greatest philosopher & thinker ever living, without any academic education, which could be realized from his verses, if you have visualization to take imagination in the context of 625 AD - obviously he didn't have the iMac or GPS or AWACS.....

I'm sorry but this makes no sense.

Even if the Earth was flat the Qiblah direction would be different from different places. Everyone in the US would still face North East and someone in Australia would face North West while praying.

In reality though, with the earth being a sphere I could face anywhere would eventually end up facing Makkah. Technically though regardless of where I turn my face to I'm not literally facing Makkah as the earth if a globe and not a flat surface. I'm facing space.

 

[last_knight]

Where does Qur'an say that the earth is shaped like an egg? Please post references otherwise a discussion is pointless if you're just making up random stuff.

Surah Al Rehman ; Verse 33.

"O company of jinn and mankind, if you are able to pass beyond the radius of the heavens and the earth, then pass. You will not pass except by Sultaan"

Let me disect it further

1= The exact word used in this verse is "Aqtaar" thats plural of "Qutar" which translates into english word "Radius".
Radius is for circles and not for flat shapes.

2= 'Sultana' is an Arabic noun for an arrow that is narrow at front and broader at rear and goes to its target with high speed. Very much the description of early rockets that escaped through the Gravity Radius.

 

[uberkoen]

6th century Arabs do not know what Sphere is. So God must have used the word Spread out like a carpet.

We can twist religious books as per our convenience. God never says things as facts. Just some vague twisted answers.

Did God think that people later on would not know what a Sphere is either. Moreover, the knowledge that the earth is sphere shaped already existed before this time however, early muslims were not aware of this.

However, to say that early muslims were not aware of spheres is beyond silly. There must have been thousands of sphere shaped items around them

 

[uberkoen]

Surah Al Rehman ; Verse 33.

"O company of jinn and mankind, if you are able to pass beyond the radius of the heavens and the earth, then pass. You will not pass except by Sultaan"

Let me disect it further

1= The exact word used in this verse is "Aqtaar" thats plural of "Qutar" which translates into english word "Radius".
Radius is for circles and not for flat shapes.

2= 'Sultana' is an Arabic noun for an arrow that is narrow at front and broader at rear and goes to its target with high speed. Very much the description of early rockets that escaped through the Gravity Radius.

What I don't understand is why people make up this stuff? Can you please tell me which translation you are using? Because none of the translations I have seen use the word 'radius'.

Here are all the major translation works accepted all over the Islamic world and not one of them says 'Radius' :

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/a...of-allah-and-sinners-will-be-punished-in-hell

What you have translated as 'Radius' is translated by most Qur'an translated as 'region'. The word Aqtaar means zones or boundaries and the world Sultana means authority or legitimization. Please do not make up your own meanings.

 

[MMHS]

I'm sorry but this makes no sense.

Even if the Earth was flat the Qiblah direction would be different from different places. Everyone in the US would still face North East and someone in Australia would face North West while praying.

In reality though, with the earth being a sphere I could face anywhere would eventually end up facing Makkah. Technically though regardless of where I turn my face to I'm not literally facing Makkah as the earth if a globe and not a flat surface. I'm facing space.

No, this one makes sense - as I mentioned "Shortest distance". Unless you can prove that travelling to East from Delhi will be same distance to west, if I am to reach Mecca; though I should reach one day, as earth is round & thus Columbus discovered America.

I have given the name of the spots from different parts of earth & the Quibla direction which does vary from position. Also, it doesn't make sense to you why the shortest flight distance on a sphere should match with the Quibla direction, but for me I got my answer.

I actually, never thought it like this, until I got surprised to see the Quibla direction at Toronto. On a flat surface, ideally, the direction should be south-east, around 35 degree (Toronto is around 50D North, Mecca at around 30N). I got my answer, from my flight to Dubai-Toronto & then Istanbul Toronto.

 

[uberkoen]

No, this one makes sense - as I mentioned "Shortest distance". Unless you can prove that travelling to East from Delhi will be same distance to west, if I am to reach Mecca; though I should reach one day, as earth is round & thus Columbus discovered America.

I have given the name of the spots from different parts of earth & the Quibla direction which does vary from position. Also, it doesn't make sense to you why the shortest flight distance on a sphere should match with the Quibla direction, but for me I got my answer.

I actually, never thought it like this, until I got surprised to see the Quibla direction at Toronto. On a flat surface, ideally, the direction should be south-east, around 35 degree (Toronto is around 50D North, Mecca at around 30N). I got my answer, from my flight to Dubai-Toronto & then Istanbul Toronto.

Okay, again. This is not something new. This would've been the case even if the earth was flat. No where in the Quran or Hadith is it mentioned that you must face the shortest distance. This is something later scholars made up. As mentioned, with the earth being a sphere regardless of where I face I would face the Qiblah however, literally, regardless of where I face I'd not be facing the Qiblah since it is a globe and I'd always be facing space.

 

[uberkoen]

No, this one makes sense - as I mentioned "Shortest distance". Unless you can prove that travelling to East from Delhi will be same distance to west, if I am to reach Mecca; though I should reach one day, as earth is round & thus Columbus discovered America.

I have given the name of the spots from different parts of earth & the Quibla direction which does vary from position. Also, it doesn't make sense to you why the shortest flight distance on a sphere should match with the Quibla direction, but for me I got my answer.

I actually, never thought it like this, until I got surprised to see the Quibla direction at Toronto. On a flat surface, ideally, the direction should be south-east, around 35 degree (Toronto is around 50D North, Mecca at around 30N). I got my answer, from my flight to Dubai-Toronto & then Istanbul Toronto.

 

[last_knight]

What I don't understand is why people make up this stuff? Can you please tell me which translation you are using? Because none of the translations I have seen use the word 'radius'.

Here are all the major translation works accepted all over the Islamic world and not one of them says 'Radius' :

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/a...of-allah-and-sinners-will-be-punished-in-hell

What you have translated as 'Radius' is translated by most Qur'an translated as 'region'. The word Aqtaar means zones or boundaries and the world Sultana means authority or legitimization. Please do not make up your own meanings.

Because essence of translation is to avoid complex terminologies. Aqtaar is Plural of Qutar.

This is not making up.
Go one step ahead and translate radius into arabic. If Radius is translated to Qutar in Arabic, then Qutar is translated to Radius in English.

Essence of translation is to make it easy for everyone, not just for scholars. Hence you find Qutar translated as Zone/Boundary. Exactly like when you find ALLAH translated as LORD.

Doesn't change the fact that Quranic word is "Aqtaar". Now if you have an arabic translation for 'Radius'.

 

[Heisenberg]

Where? References please.

Wasn't being serious. I've seen people connect the dots that way when claiming it's mentioned in the Qur'an. Early tafsirs disagree.

 

[MMHS]

Okay, again. This is not something new. This would've been the case even if the earth was flat. No where in the Quran or Hadith is it mentioned that you must face the shortest distance. This is something later scholars made up. As mentioned, with the earth being a sphere regardless of where I face I would face the Qiblah however, literally, regardless of where I face I'd not be facing the Qiblah since it is a globe and I'd always be facing space.

Your initial argument was -

Do you think Muslims are required to face the Qibla in Makkah because Islam believes the earth to be flat?

The answer, is Islam doesn't believe Earth is flat & it's neither written in The Quran. You'll not face the Quaba, by sitting at any direction - try it of a globe.

Your last argument is a face saver though - going to space, if you move in a straight line, because earth is round. However, still projection of your path can cascade on one particular spot for one particular direction.

 

[MMHS]

View attachment 74250

The day you start to pray with your a$$ on top or you find a way to pray at the epicenter, this photoshop work would be worth discussing. However, still the 4th picture is not so intelligent though - see it again with a cool head.

 

[last_knight]

What I don't understand is why people make up this stuff? Can you please tell me which translation you are using? Because none of the translations I have seen use the word 'radius'.

Here are all the major translation works accepted all over the Islamic world and not one of them says 'Radius' :

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/a...of-allah-and-sinners-will-be-punished-in-hell

What you have translated as 'Radius' is translated by most Qur'an translated as 'region'. The word Aqtaar means zones or boundaries and the world Sultana means authority or legitimization. Please do not make up your own meanings.

Btw, "Sultana" , in ancient arabic, refers to an arrow and descriptions resemble Rocket. Ancient Arabic.

 

[uberkoen]

Because essence of translation is to avoid complex terminologies. Aqtaar is Plural of Qutar.

This is not making up.
Go one step ahead and translate radius into arabic. If Radius is translated to Qutar in Arabic, then Qutar is translated to Radius in English.

Essence of translation is to make it easy for everyone, not just for scholars. Hence you find Qutar translated as Zone/Boundary. Exactly like when you find ALLAH translated as LORD.

Doesn't change the fact that Quranic word is "Aqtaar". Now if you have an arabic translation for 'Radius'.

Incorrect.

Can you please show me a valid translation of the Qur'an or a dictionary where Qutar is translated as Radius

This is what I got

( al-qutr ): end, towards, comer. The plural is “71 ( aqtaar ) which also means environs as used in
(55:33).

 

[uberkoen]

Your initial argument was -

Do you think Muslims are required to face the Qibla in Makkah because Islam believes the earth to be flat?

The answer, is Islam doesn't believe Earth is flat & it's neither written in The Quran. You'll not face the Quaba, by sitting at any direction - try it of a globe.

Your last argument is a face saver though - going to space, if you move in a straight line, because earth is round. However, still projection of your path can cascade on one particular spot for one particular direction.

What does being spread like a carpet mean? I've quoted several verses which talk of Earth as if it were flat and so far only last_knight has come up with one vague verse which may or may not refer to the diameter of the earth.

 

[MMHS]

What does being spread like a carpet mean? I've quoted several verses which talk of Earth as if it were flat and so far only last_knight has come up with one vague verse which may or may not refer to the diameter of the earth.

Think it this way - the earth is spread like a carpet, with in the area human eye can see or it's impacting it's life. When I am walking, running or cultivating on the land, it's flat like a carpet for me.

 

[Heisenberg]

Think it this way - the earth is spread like a carpet, with in the area human eye can see or it's impacting it's life. When I am walking, running or cultivating on the land, it's flat like a carpet for me.

And why is that fact, which we know anyway, mentioned numerous times?

 

[troodon]

The day you start to pray with your a$$ on top or you find a way to pray at the epicenter, this photoshop work would be worth discussing. However, still the 4th picture is not so intelligent though - see it again with a cool head.

You seem to be upset.
[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION] is making valid arguments.

 

[troodon]

Think it this way - the earth is spread like a carpet, with in the area human eye can see or it's impacting it's life. When I am walking, running or cultivating on the land, it's flat like a carpet for me.

So?

That does not mean Earth is flat. God could have clarified it easily. But did not. Which means you know...

 

[MMHS]

And why is that fact, which we know anyway, mentioned numerous times?

Was it known in 6th century is the question.

 

[uberkoen]

Was it known in 6th century is the question.

Was Quran only meant for the people of the 6th Century? Why do you keep making this point.

I see two things. 1. Either you're saying someone from the 6th century wrote the Quran and they didn't know about it hence it is not mentioned in the Quran or 2. The Quran is only meant for the people of the 6th century.

which is it?

 

[MMHS]

You seem to be upset.
[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION] is making valid arguments.

The argument is valid, so I tried to explain it with logic. The photoshop work didn't deserve better response.

That argument makes little sense that walking straight will take you to space - which doesn't consider the gravitation, as per science.

 

[troodon]

The argument is valid, so I tried to explain it with logic. The photoshop work didn't deserve better response.

That argument makes little sense that walking straight will take you to space - which doesn't consider the gravitation, as per science.

The argument is not about walking straight up. It is about the direction of Kaba that people face when praying.

 

[MMHS]

Was Quran only meant for the people of the 6th Century? Why do you keep making this point.

I see two things. 1. Either you're saying someone from the 6th century wrote the Quran and they didn't know about it hence it is not mentioned in the Quran or 2. The Quran is only meant for the people of the 6th century.

which is it?

Quran is universal, just we don't have enough knowledge to explain it or find the inner meaning. It's constructed in the context of 6th/7th century, as a form of verse by a person of contemporary world, which standing on 21st century confuses us. There are many, many topics in The Quran, that actually is demystified over the years - it'll continue till judgement day.

No relevance, but what we saw in Terminator 1, doesn't sound impossible now. Human race is evolving to greater knowledge, which is a continuous process; not everything needs to be written in a particular time frame. Just from one example from this thread -

You are questioning the Quibla direction, considering that Islam believes Earth is flat. I believe that Allah almighty knows everything, including shape of Earth - therefore the instruction was to face Quaba, from anywhere on earth.

Our mind is always looking for answers because human race doesn't have every knowledge - some innovation or discovery surprises us, because of first time knowledge. America wasn't discovered before 15th century - that doesn't mean it wasn't there or people were not living there.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

The Holy Quran does not mention Earth to be Flat, Round or Spherical.


There isn't a single verse which states so.


But I vividly remember reading a Hadith narrated by Hazrat Abu Darr RA. That Hadith was wrt Sun Setting and relation of Earth & Sun in that perspective. That Hadith had word " Arsh ". Unfortunately I am unable to find that Hadith & would be grateful if any Pper can find and Post that Hadith. I think He Pbuh did mention as per that Hadith that Earth is Round/Spherical. But I am not sure and I am not claiming it.


But the Word " Daha-haa " in 79:30 does not mean round or spherical.


So Holy Quran does not mention shape of Earth.


I don’t find any problem whatsoever with Holy Quran not mentioning Shape of Earth

 

[troodon]

Quran is universal, just we don't have enough knowledge to explain it or find the inner meaning. It's constructed in the context of 6th/7th century, as a form of verse by a person of contemporary world, which standing on 21st century confuses us. There are many, many topics in The Quran, that actually is demystified over the years - it'll continue till judgement day.

No relevance, but what we saw in Terminator 1, doesn't sound impossible now. Human race is evolving to greater knowledge, which is a continuous process; not everything needs to be written in a particular time frame. Just from one example from this thread -

You are questioning the Quibla direction, considering that Islam believes Earth is flat. I believe that Allah almighty knows everything, including shape of Earth - therefore the instruction was to face Quaba, from anywhere on earth.

Our mind is always looking for answers because human race doesn't have every knowledge - some innovation or discovery surprises us, because of first time knowledge. America wasn't discovered before 15th century - that doesn't mean it wasn't there or people were not living there.

But Quran was said to be for all times and the final word of God. Not just for contemporary 6th century Arabs.

The final word of God about Shape of Earth cannot be like a childish explanation.

A simple word like Sphere or Spherical or Ball would have been enough to dispense all the confusion. But instead, spread out like a carpet was used multiple times.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Threads like this will only cause friction and anger.

If the OP doesn't want to be Muslim it's up to him but don't mock the Holy book please.

 

[MMHS]

But Quran was said to be for all times and the final word of God. Not just for contemporary 6th century Arabs.

The final word of God about Shape of Earth cannot be like a childish explanation.

A simple word like Sphere or Spherical or Ball would have been enough to dispense all the confusion. But instead, spread out like a carpet was used multiple times.

If you want every answers to be given crystal clear, then The Quran probably would have needed all the libraries in world to store. How many questions you need direct answers?

Having said that, we (human race) knows very, very little of Quran - even the best scholars. It's it's a great mystery book, the more you study, you get answers, but you have to submit your faith first. HE knows what we don't know - we can just keep searching around & find new things everyday. I never quote from The Quran, because I myself isn't sure if I am interpreting the correct meaning or the cause that it was written for. But, I myself found few answers when I thought deeply - may be that's faith, I am groomed to believe what is there.

Also, it's a mistake to think that The Quran was written by Prophet (PBUH).

 

[TM Riddle]

So?

That does not mean Earth is flat. God could have clarified it easily. But did not. Which means you know...

He works in mysterious ways.
You are an ignorant person .
You will find this out at the judgement day which is arriving soon when those who held to their faith will be rewarded and heretics like you will be condemned to eternal hell fire.

 

[troodon]

If you want every answers to be given crystal clear, then The Quran probably would have needed all the libraries in world to store. How many questions you need direct answers?

Having said that, we (human race) knows very, very little of Quran - even the best scholars. It's it's a great mystery book, the more you study, you get answers, but you have to submit your faith first. HE knows what we don't know - we can just keep searching around & find new things everyday. I never quote from The Quran, because I myself isn't sure if I am interpreting the correct meaning or the cause that it was written for. But, I myself found few answers when I thought deeply - may be that's faith, I am groomed to believe what is there.

Also, it's a mistake to think that The Quran was written by Prophet (PBUH).

Most of the content of religious books deal with spiritual matters and how to attain peace and go to heaven.

But when religious books tries to explain physical phenomenon, then it has to be clear on what it is saying.

Regarding the shape of the Earth, a simple Ball would have sufficed for the shape of Earth. Would not need libraries worth of pages to write a simple word "ball".

Same with where sun rises and sets. One line would have been enough to explain it. When God takes the pain of explaining it to humans, he could have easily said, Sun never rises or sets. Its the Earth's rotation that causes day and night and sun rise and sunset. Instead God chose to give an example of some guy who traveled to see where the Sun Set's?

 

[TM Riddle]

The Holy Quran does not mention Earth to be Flat, Round or Spherical.


There isn't a single verse which states so.


But I vividly remember reading a Hadith narrated by Hazrat Abu Darr RA. That Hadith was wrt Sun Setting and relation of Earth & Sun in that perspective. That Hadith had word " Arsh ". Unfortunately I am unable to find that Hadith & would be grateful if any Pper can find and Post that Hadith. I think He Pbuh did mention as per that Hadith that Earth is Round/Spherical. But I am not sure and I am not claiming it.


But the Word " Daha-haa " in 79:30 does not mean round or spherical.


So Holy Quran does not mention shape of Earth.


I don¡¯t find any problem whatsoever with Holy Quran not mentioning Shape of Earth

I like this response.Instead of beating around the bush this guy simply accepted that Quran doesn't have any such verse which explicitly mentions earth's shape.Fair enough to me.I mean why even bother looking for scientific explanations in a book clearly written for completely different purposes in the 6th century in the middle east.And this applies to the holy books of all religions including Hinduism whose adherents claim Vedas(or puranas whatever) are the repository of scientific facts.

 

[MMHS]

He works in mysterious ways.
You are an ignorant person .
You will find this out at the judgement day which is arriving soon when those who held to their faith will be rewarded and heretics like you will be condemned to eternal hell fire.

This is not the right choice of words - a non Muslim will think exactly the same way for Muslims, an atheist will think that religious people are wasting a good part of their short life for a fake bluff. How can you say that a non Muslim will go to hell, when he is following his belief perfectly.

The question is valid - one has to answer that logically.

 

[IAJ]

I don't mean to offend you nor do I consider myself an atheist. However, does your religion not tell you to go out and seek knowledge? How can you just blindly accept things without questioning whether it makes sense or not? An all knowing all powerful God wouldn't just say things for the sake of saying something. An All Knowing All Powerful God would back up everything He says with logic, reasoning and science. Do you not believe the same?

You seem confused brother. Seeking knowledge is one of the most important things in Islam. I don't know about your position but understanding the entire Quran is not what you start doing on your own. Just like other professions where you go to a teacher and learn you have to this with Quran also. Scholars have spent their whole lives understanding Quaran and spreading it's light.

You obviously have a question here and instead of asking random people on a forum who don't have much knowledge you need to consult a reliable scholar and he will in sha Allah clarify this for you.

You are trying to find logic answers in everything and your brain which Allah has created has a limited intellect. Some things are very easy to understand from Quran whereas others are difficult. Remember that Quran is for all periods. There might be things that science don't understand today but it might do sometime in future.

The Isra journey. How do you explain that with your logic/mind. Allah SWT can do everything he wants and has that power.

Your start should be like this: Quran is correct/truth, my understanding is not good. You are starting at wrong end and that is dangerous.

 

[Yossarian]

I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Are you saying when Quran was written and the instructions for the religion passed out it was assumed that worshippers would be few and far between and would only live in and around Makkah not taking into consideration that it would spread across the globe like it has today?

The Quran was a 'guide book', a 'rule book', a sort of 'highway code', to address the needs of the society (of the clans and tribes of the region) at the time. Not dissimilar to the way laws, rules and 'highway codes' are written by a government for the peoples/society over which it governs, and not for a society/country far away and over which it has no control.

So in answer to your question, basically 'yes'.

 

[JaDed]

Threads like this will only cause friction and anger.

If the OP doesn't want to be Muslim it's up to him but don't mock the Holy book please.

That advice goes both ways,esp w.r.t homosexuals etc.

 

[uberkoen]

The Holy Quran does not mention Earth to be Flat, Round or Spherical.


There isn't a single verse which states so.


But I vividly remember reading a Hadith narrated by Hazrat Abu Darr RA. That Hadith was wrt Sun Setting and relation of Earth & Sun in that perspective. That Hadith had word " Arsh ". Unfortunately I am unable to find that Hadith & would be grateful if any Pper can find and Post that Hadith. I think He Pbuh did mention as per that Hadith that Earth is Round/Spherical. But I am not sure and I am not claiming it.


But the Word " Daha-haa " in 79:30 does not mean round or spherical.


So Holy Quran does not mention shape of Earth.


I don’t find any problem whatsoever with Holy Quran not mentioning Shape of Earth

How can you choose to ignore a verse from the Quran which clearly states that the earth is laid out like a carpet? How is a carpet laid out?

and how do you explain the following verse?

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." (18:86).

There is no such place where the sun sets or rises. The only way someone could have this opinion was if they thought that the earth was flat. This point is also mentioned in one of the Hadith of the Prophet (ﷺ)

Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet (ﷺ) asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421)

another Hadith which links to the concept of flat earth is as follows:

Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Every night when it is the last third of the night, our Lord, the Superior, the Blessed, descends to the nearest heaven and says: Is there anyone to invoke Me that I may respond to his invocation? Is there anyone to ask Me so that I may grant him his request? Is there anyone asking My forgiveness so that I may forgive him?. " - Sahih al-Bukhari 7494, also mentioned in Sahih al-Bukhari 1145, Sahih al-Bukhari 6321 and Sunan Abi Dawud 1315.

Wouldn't it always be the last third of the night in some place on earth at any given time considering that the earth is a Sphere?


It wouldn't have been a problem at all if the Quran hadn't mentioned the shape of the earth however, it has and so have Hadith and the concept of the sun rising and setting are also detailed in a way which make it seem as though the earth is flat.

 

[uberkoen]

Threads like this will only cause friction and anger.

If the OP doesn't want to be Muslim it's up to him but don't mock the Holy book please.

Where have I mocked the holy book? If you have nothing to add to a discussion why even bother posting in the thread? You could have just as easily ignored it.

 

[Heisenberg]

You seem confused brother. Seeking knowledge is one of the most important things in Islam. I don't know about your position but understanding the entire Quran is not what you start doing on your own. Just like other professions where you go to a teacher and learn you have to this with Quran also. Scholars have spent their whole lives understanding Quaran and spreading it's light.

You obviously have a question here and instead of asking random people on a forum who don't have much knowledge you need to consult a reliable scholar and he will in sha Allah clarify this for you.

You are trying to find logic answers in everything and your brain which Allah has created has a limited intellect. Some things are very easy to understand from Quran whereas others are difficult. Remember that Quran is for all periods. There might be things that science don't understand today but it might do sometime in future.

The Isra journey. How do you explain that with your logic/mind. Allah SWT can do everything he wants and has that power.

Your start should be like this: Quran is correct/truth, my understanding is not good. You are starting at wrong end and that is dangerous.

You cannot seek knowledge when your starting position involves believing something first and then finding whatever fits that position. So let's say you were not born Muslim and your starting position had to be let's say Hinduism, how do you gain knowledge to get to the one true religion?

 

[IAJ]

The Quran was a 'guide book', a 'rule book', a sort of 'highway code', to address the needs of the society (of the clans and tribes of the region) at the time. Not dissimilar to the way laws, rules and 'highway codes' are written by a government for the peoples/society over which it governs, and not for a society/country far away and over which it has no control.

So in answer to your question, basically 'yes'.

Quran is not limited to that time only. It is a guidance for mankind till the end of times. This is the beauty of Allah's words that people in every era can recite it and be guided. OP is only stuck on the "carpet" issue and hence trying to say the earth is flat. He seems to intepret it litterally and you can not do that to every Aya in Quran. I kindly requested him to ask a reliable scholar so his confusion can be solved.

 

[IAJ]

You cannot seek knowledge when your starting position involves believing something first and then finding whatever fits that position. So let's say you were not born Muslim and your starting position had to be let's say Hinduism, how do you gain knowledge to get to the one true religion?

Easy bro, my advice was about Quran only. Quran is truth, there are no doubts. And A muslim will start with believing Quran being correct and Haqq and then you will try to figure out things. One of the very first verses of Quran states this is a book where there is no room for doubts. Hence I told him to start at right end.

 

[troodon]

Easy bro, my advice was about Quran only. Quran is truth, there are no doubts. And A muslim will start with believing Quran being correct and Haqq and then you will try to figure out things. One of the very first verses of Quran states this is a book where there is no room for doubts. Hence I told him to start at right end.

What makes you say so?

What is the point of finding out truth when someone already made up their mind that his Religious Book is the truth and his religion is the absolute truth?

 

[Heisenberg]

Easy bro, my advice was about Quran only. Quran is truth, there are no doubts. And A muslim will start with believing Quran being correct and Haqq and then you will try to figure out things. One of the very first verses of Quran states this is a book where there is no room for doubts. Hence I told him to start at right end.

Respectfully, that is a very narrow minded world view. You come to conclusions after learning about something and not the other way around.

 

[last_knight]

How can you choose to ignore a verse from the Quran which clearly states that the earth is laid out like a carpet? How is a carpet laid out?

When Quran mentions a thing, it isn't necessarily for just one attribute of that thing. Carpet has many attributes like Softness, Comfort, Stability. You opt to focus on wrong side here.

Again, have you figured out Arabic translation for Radius? Whatever way you twist it, Quranic word is Aqtaar.

 

[Yossarian]

Quran is not limited to that time only. It is a guidance for mankind till the end of times. This is the beauty of Allah's words that people in every era can recite it and be guided. OP is only stuck on the "carpet" issue and hence trying to say the earth is flat. He seems to intepret it litterally and you can not do that to every Aya in Quran. I kindly requested him to ask a reliable scholar so his confusion can be solved.

You can believe what you like. We've seen in the last 24 hours how blind belief in it's extreme form eventually leads to dire consequences. As for so called 'scholars', they don't exactly start off with an open mind and then let themselves be guided by their research and evidence they uncover. They already hold strong beliefs at the outset, and are then merely trying to find ways to justify and reinforce these beliefs under the guise of scholarliness. ie There is no objectivity.

 

[idrizzy]

So?

That does not mean Earth is flat. God could have clarified it easily. But did not. Which means you know...

God could've clarified many things and could've included things like electricity and internet, but didn't.

I believe that the 'spread' meant to the eye, the earth is spread out. Even the earth as a 2D picture, isn't spread out across that region. Don't think it was a universal statement but a regional one.

 

[troodon]

God could've clarified many things and could've included things like electricity and internet, but didn't.

I believe that the 'spread' meant to the eye, the earth is spread out. Even the earth as a 2D picture, isn't spread out across that region. Don't think it was a universal statement but a regional one.

If God had talked about electricity and internet, then then I would surely expect a proper definition from him.

Since God mentioned about laying earth and about sunset etc, I would expect just one precise work like a ball or sphere to avoid confusion.

 

[IAJ]

Respectfully, that is a very narrow minded world view. You come to conclusions after learning about something and not the other way around.

You obviously are not getting my point. I am only talking about Quran. It's word of Allah, it can not be false. If you believe something is incorrect in Quran (which isn't the case) then bring forth your evidences. And once again, you can not take everything litterally.

 

[shane]

Interesting discussion. As with most religious discussions, there is probably no concrete answer and it basically comes down to beliefs (or faith as the religious would call it). But I did always wonder why Muslims face a certain direction to pray when facing the opposite direction would achieve the same result. In the context of this thread, it would seem to strongly suggest that the Quran is written on the premise that the Earth is flat.

 

[IAJ]

What makes you say so?

What is the point of finding out truth when someone already made up their mind that his Religious Book is the truth and his religion is the absolute truth?

What makes me say that? Quran itself says it is a book where there are no doubts. It's word of Allah. I don't know what religion you are following, but that is your choice, let me believe what I believe.

 

[TM Riddle]

You obviously are not getting my point. I am only talking about Quran. It's word of Allah, it can not be false. If you believe something is incorrect in Quran (which isn't the case) then bring forth your evidences. And once again, you can not take everything litterally.

You are not getting the point.The ONUS is on you to prove that Quran is the word of God and not us.You were the one who came up with the claim hence it's your responsibility to bring forth the evidence which can convince us.
I can make a similar claim regarding infallibility of Vedas.Wouldn't change a thing.

 

[uberkoen]

You obviously are not getting my point. I am only talking about Quran. It's word of Allah, it can not be false. If you believe something is incorrect in Quran (which isn't the case) then bring forth your evidences. And once again, you can not take everything litterally.

The evidence is in front of you. Discussions regarding topics such as this or as with the topic regarding consumption of pig meat have resulted in people like you, [MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION], [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] just come out and say "This is what the Qur'an says and so it must be true."

There is no point in you being involved in a discussion if you're going to end up saying "The Quran is right I don't care about any logical discussion or explanation."

You can't have a discussion with people who have blind faith. If you have blind faith then that's good for you but please don't get involved in religious discussions because it is pointless.

If you want to be involved in a discussion then you need to be able to prove your point of view and not just resort to "Quran can't be wrong. You're wrong. Science is wrong. Scholars are wrong. Everything and everyone is wrong but Quran is right."

This completely defeats the purpose of a discussion.

 

[IAJ]

You are not getting the point.The ONUS is on you to prove that Quran is the word of God and not us.You were the one who came up with the claim hence it's your responsibility to bring forth the evidence which can convince us.
I can make a similar claim regarding infallibility of Vedas.Wouldn't change a thing.

What!? You are totally lost here. I don't need to prove anything. The Quran is there, hence my evidence is on the the table. Your challenge is to fint faults in it.
You can make whatever claims about Vedas, that is your choice. I am saying Quran is truth and if you say it isn't you should come with evidence.
And btw people here are not saying that Quran is not Allahs words. You seem confused too.
And I see what you are trying to do, sorry I dont have so much time for that.

 

[IAJ]

The evidence is in front of you. Discussions regarding topics such as this or as with the topic regarding consumption of pig meat have resulted in people like you, [MENTION=142169]PakLFC[/MENTION], [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] just come out and say "This is what the Qur'an says and so it must be true."

There is no point in you being involved in a discussion if you're going to end up saying "The Quran is right I don't care about any logical discussion or explanation."

You can't have a discussion with people who have blind faith. If you have blind faith then that's good for you but please don't get involved in religious discussions because it is pointless.

If you want to be involved in a discussion then you need to be able to prove your point of view and not just resort to "Quran can't be wrong. You're wrong. Science is wrong. Scholars are wrong. Everything and everyone is wrong but Quran is right."

This completely defeats the purpose of a discussion.

Who are you to decide who should be a part in discussion or not. I have discussed more challenging matters than this earlier. You are only confused. The Quran does not say directly earth is flat. It just explains things with carpet. You know how hot and fluid the earth is under the carpet. You intepret this as earth being flat, that is your choice.
Anyways I am trying to get out of this discussion because I dont have time to reply properly. And typing on phone isnt that effective either for me.

 

[USHK]

Why Holy Kaaba is chosen as Qibla [Direction]? Answer is in the video.

 

[uberkoen]

Who are you to decide who should be a part in discussion or not. I have discussed more challenging matters than this earlier. You are only confused. The Quran does not say directly earth is flat. It just explains things with carpet. You know how hot and fluid the earth is under the carpet. You intepret this as earth being flat, that is your choice.
Anyways I am trying to get out of this discussion because I dont have time to reply properly. And typing on phone isnt that effective either for me.

lol bro. you're not making any sense whatsoever.

 

[TM Riddle]

What!? You are totally lost here. I don't need to prove anything. The Quran is there, hence my evidence is on the the table. Your challenge is to fint faults in it.
You can make whatever claims about Vedas, that is your choice. I am saying Quran is truth and if you say it isn't you should come with evidence.
And btw people here are not saying that Quran is not Allahs words. You seem confused too.
And I see what you are trying to do, sorry I dont have so much time for that.

I believe the chronicles of young boy wizard Harry Potter is the only true word of my God and rest everything is false.I challenge you to find any fault or mistakes in it.It has been the same since its inception in 1997 and isn't corrupted like other works such as bible etc.
Harry Potter is here hence my evidence is on the table.Your challenge is to find faults in it.
You can make whatever claims about the Quran that's your choice.I'm saying HP is the truth and if you say it isn't you should come up with the evidence.

 

[USHK]

There is debate on the definition of DOHAHA.

WAL means AND

ARDA means EARTH

BAID means AFTER

ZALIKA means THAT

DOHAHA MEANS EGG SHAPED THING

Now see the English translation of the Sura 79:30

“And the earth , moreover, hath he extended in egg shape.”





Holy Quran:

[Quran 39.5] [Allah] Created the heavens and the Earth in truth. He overlaps [Yukawer in Arabic يُكَوِّرُ] the night over the day and overlaps [Yukawer يُكَوِّرُ] the day over the night, and enslaved the sun and the moon. ALL MOVE (Kullon Yajree كل يجري) to a prerecorded destiny. Is He not the Exalted, the Forgiver?

Description:

The Arabic word "Kura" means ball; its verb "Yukawer يُكَوِّرُ" means to make into a ball. The Quran says that the overlapping of the night and the day makes a ball (sphere). Here also the Quran is referring to ALL MOVING, not only the sun and moon but also Earth. In Arabic grammar there is difference between the singular (one), binary (two) and plural (three or more). The reference to binary is "Kulahuma Yajreean كلاهما يجريان" however the Quran said "Kullon yajree كل يجري" referring to the plural (three or more). Since the sun and moon are just two but the Quran refers to three or more then according to the Quran all the three move: sun, moon and Earth.

{Say: “Go about the earth and see how He created for the first time, and then Allah will recreate life.” Surely Allah has power over everything} (al-Ankaboot, 29:20)

Holy Quran is basically guidance. Basically, Holy Quran gave hint for us to learn about GOD's creations so ultimately it is up to us to make sense understanding the designs of GOD.

 

[USHK]

You are not getting the point.The ONUS is on you to prove that Quran is the word of God and not us.You were the one who came up with the claim hence it's your responsibility to bring forth the evidence which can convince us.
I can make a similar claim regarding infallibility of Vedas.Wouldn't change a thing.

Similarity, you can prove why Holy Quran is not the word of GOD. People who haven't seen GOD and ITS Prophet believe in the message of Holy Quran indicates it is based on faith.

Onus is on you to prove why Holy Quran is not the word of GOD. If you can prove that Holy Quran is not word of GOD, then we are ready to abandon Holy Quran.

For me, Holy Quran makes sense because it talks about A CREATOR that created the worlds, mankind, and all those kinds. Like other religions, Holy Quran focuses on primarily basic tenets which is worship A CREATOR and not the created things like son of GOD or statues or idol worship. When it comes to space, then it is beyond my understanding since i am not expert in space.

I believe in Holy Quran because it is consistent, logical and unchanged since 1400 years. No one has seen GOD so it makes sense why it all depends on faith. And the information is consistent because we are signs of creation which indicates there exists A CREATOR based on our understanding in Earth such as car cannot be manufactured without car-manufacturer. And it is unchanged since 1400 years which suggest there is no sign of corruption in Holy Quran and its original language has been preserved to this day.

Unlike Bible where Jesus (PBUH) was recorded invoking the name of GOD in Aramaic citing 'ELLAH' which is similar to Arabic word of GOD is ALLAH and ALLAH in Holy Quran means ONE GOD - no parents nor children - None like unto GOD. Yet the meaning lost in translation after centurions of translation which came to realization that in English, that stands for son of GOD. So Bible is not consistent nor logical because it sort of undermine the faith knowing how son of GOD is nailed to death is the source of salvation. Scary, right?

Qibla is direction; compass. Before Holy Kaaba, it was Jerusalem. It is direction, nothing more. Plus there is history in Makkah and Medinah that birthed Islam so naturally, there is emotional ties.

 

[Musakhel]

Can I not spread a carpet on a hill, or a rocky mountain or does it have to be a flat surface?

 

[TM Riddle]

Similarity, you can prove why Holy Quran is not the word of GOD. People who haven't seen GOD and ITS Prophet believe in the message of Holy Quran indicates it is based on faith.

Onus is on you to prove why Holy Quran is not the word of GOD. If you can prove that Holy Quran is not word of GOD, then we are ready to abandon Holy Quran.

For me, Holy Quran makes sense because it talks about A CREATOR that created the worlds, mankind, and all those kinds. Like other religions, Holy Quran focuses on primarily basic tenets which is worship A CREATOR and not the created things like son of GOD or statues or idol worship. When it comes to space, then it is beyond my understanding since i am not expert in space.

I believe in Holy Quran because it is consistent, logical and unchanged since 1400 years. No one has seen GOD so it makes sense why it all depends on faith. And the information is consistent because we are signs of creation which indicates there exists A CREATOR based on our understanding in Earth such as car cannot be manufactured without car-manufacturer. And it is unchanged since 1400 years which suggest there is no sign of corruption in Holy Quran and its original language has been preserved to this day.

Unlike Bible where Jesus (PBUH) was recorded invoking the name of GOD in Aramaic citing 'ELLAH' which is similar to Arabic word of GOD is ALLAH and ALLAH in Holy Quran means ONE GOD - no parents nor children - None like unto GOD. Yet the meaning lost in translation after centurions of translation which came to realization that in English, that stands for son of GOD. So Bible is not consistent nor logical because it sort of undermine the faith knowing how son of GOD is nailed to death is the source of salvation. Scary, right?

Qibla is direction; compass. Before Holy Kaaba, it was Jerusalem. It is direction, nothing more. Plus there is history in Makkah and Medinah that birthed Islam so naturally, there is emotional ties.

Dude you cannot prove a negative.I can claim there are 56383 billion small stones or kankar in the world, do you object to that and if yes then prove me wrong.
Some of you lot really. No wonder the world is so messed up.