The Qibla Dilemma - Flat Earth and the Qur'an

[USHK]

Dude you cannot prove a negative.I can claim there are 56383 billion small stones or kankar in the world, do you object to that and if yes then prove me wrong.
Some of you lot really. No wonder the world is so messed up.

Similarity, you can prove why Holy Quran is not the word of GOD. People who haven't seen GOD and ITS Prophet believe in the message of Holy Quran indicates it is based on faith.

But in your opinion, if Holy Quran is not word of GOD, then that is what you have to prove. Read Holy Quran and find some Verses that contradicts the ground reality as we know today. And prove them wrong.

That is how people were able to analyze the contradiction in Bible. If you analyze Holy Quran, then point out contradiction pattern. That is only way to judge the narrative since you are asking Muslims to prove who haven't seen GOD and ITS Prophet believe in the narrative based on faith can only prove by rational analyze as mentioned above.

But you can prove that Holy Quran is not word of GOD by analyzing Holy Quran to pin point the contradictions to ground reality. If we were to go by your school of thought, then Bible wouldn't be exposed with contradiction either. You can only expose the contradiction by analyzing the source. So go ahead and analyze the source to pin point the weakness of Holy Quran.

In fact, Holy Quran challenges you that.

“Were all mankind to come together and wish to produce the like of the Qur’an, they would never succeed, however much they aided each other”. (17:88)

“Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.” (Quran 11:

“And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.” (Quran 2:23)

“Do people imagine that this Qur’an is not from Us, and that you, O Prophet are falsely attributing to us? Tell them that if they are speaking truly they should produce ten surahs resembling the Qur’an, and that they are free to call on the aid of anyone but God in so doing.” (11:13)

“Oh people, if you doubt the heavenly origin of this Book which We have sent down to Our servant, the Prophet, produce one surah like it.” (2:23)

“Or do they say: 'He forged it'? Say: 'Bring then a surah like unto it and call [to your aid] anyone you can”. (10:38)


If Holy Quran is not the word of GOD, then prove it. GOD challenges you to do that. The ball is in your court.

 

[uberkoen]

Can I not spread a carpet on a hill, or a rocky mountain or does it have to be a flat surface?

Carpet is always spread out on a flat surface. Have you ever seen a carpet on a hill or a mountain? Regardless, that's one point. There are several others which when all combined lead to the view that the Quran assumes the world to be flat.

 

[uberkoen]

There is debate on the definition of DOHAHA.

WAL means AND

ARDA means EARTH

BAID means AFTER

ZALIKA means THAT

DOHAHA MEANS EGG SHAPED THING

Now see the English translation of the Sura 79:30

“And the earth , moreover, hath he extended in egg shape.”


View attachment 74263


Holy Quran:

[Quran 39.5] [Allah] Created the heavens and the Earth in truth. He overlaps [Yukawer in Arabic يُكَوِّرُ] the night over the day and overlaps [Yukawer يُكَوِّرُ] the day over the night, and enslaved the sun and the moon. ALL MOVE (Kullon Yajree كل يجري) to a prerecorded destiny. Is He not the Exalted, the Forgiver?

Description:

{Say: “Go about the earth and see how He created for the first time, and then Allah will recreate life.” Surely Allah has power over everything} (al-Ankaboot, 29:20)

Holy Quran is basically guidance. Basically, Holy Quran gave hint for us to learn about GOD's creations so ultimately it is up to us to make sense understanding the designs of GOD.

None of the most widely accepted translators of the Quran use the word egg-shaped as a translation of Dohaha. Tafseer Al-Jalalayn clearly mentions on this verse that it is proclaiming the earth to be spread out flat and not referring the earth to be sphere or egg-shaped.

Interpretation given in Al-Jalalayn:

At the earth how it is spread out(*) (Arabic: sutihat): meaning it was stretched, so they can see in it a sign for the power of Allah ... and his saying sutihat makes it obvious that the earth is flat, and this is certified by Ulama' ash-shar'a (the shari'a theologians), not a globe as it is said by ahlul-hay'a (the laymen)."

Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich. The verb Da'ha (Ydahoo: present tense) is not derived from Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, because names are derived from the "verb of origin" (fi'l al masdar), and the verb of origin is not derived from a name. The verb of origin is "dahawa" from which the verb "da'ha" and "yadhoo" are derived, and so is the name of the noun denoting the egg. The verb "da'aha" does not mean "kaw'wara" (made round) or made something in the shape of an egg, whether it is an ostrich egg or a chicken's egg. As a matter of fact, the verb "da'ha" means the complete opposite to the concept of the roundness. Here is what "Al-munjid fil'lugha wal'alam" has to say:

"da'ha da'hwan ... God `da'ha' earth that is `basataha'."
And that is exactly what Al-Jalalayn has said.
"da'ha idhiwa'an: `inbisatan'." (that is: flattening)

We read in Sura 96:6 (Ash'shams): "Wal'ardu wa ma ta'haha".
The word "Tahaha" is interpreted in Tafsir Al-Jalalayn as "He made it flat". In Munjid Al-lugha Wal'alam, the word "Taha" is also interpreted as "to flatten or to stretch". Then, the noun "At'taha" is interpreted as "a flat part of the earth". Then, Al-Munjid gives a sentence as an example to confirm the meaning of "taha" as "to make a certain thing flat".

In Sura 15:19 (Al-Hajar), we read: "wal'arda madadnaha wa'alkayna feeha rawasi".
The word "madadnaha" is from the verb "madda", which is a very simple and easy word to understand. Not even a little Arabic child would use this word to describe the shape of a watermelon or a ball. It is the most simple way to describe something flat.

 

[uberkoen]

What!? You are totally lost here. I don't need to prove anything. The Quran is there, hence my evidence is on the the table. Your challenge is to fint faults in it.
You can make whatever claims about Vedas, that is your choice. I am saying Quran is truth and if you say it isn't you should come with evidence.
And btw people here are not saying that Quran is not Allahs words. You seem confused too.
And I see what you are trying to do, sorry I dont have so much time for that.

Similarity, you can prove why Holy Quran is not the word of GOD. People who haven't seen GOD and ITS Prophet believe in the message of Holy Quran indicates it is based on faith.

Onus is on you to prove why Holy Quran is not the word of GOD. If you can prove that Holy Quran is not word of GOD, then we are ready to abandon Holy Quran.

For me, Holy Quran makes sense because it talks about A CREATOR that created the worlds, mankind, and all those kinds. Like other religions, Holy Quran focuses on primarily basic tenets which is worship A CREATOR and not the created things like son of GOD or statues or idol worship. When it comes to space, then it is beyond my understanding since i am not expert in space.

I believe in Holy Quran because it is consistent, logical and unchanged since 1400 years. No one has seen GOD so it makes sense why it all depends on faith. And the information is consistent because we are signs of creation which indicates there exists A CREATOR based on our understanding in Earth such as car cannot be manufactured without car-manufacturer. And it is unchanged since 1400 years which suggest there is no sign of corruption in Holy Quran and its original language has been preserved to this day.

Unlike Bible where Jesus (PBUH) was recorded invoking the name of GOD in Aramaic citing 'ELLAH' which is similar to Arabic word of GOD is ALLAH and ALLAH in Holy Quran means ONE GOD - no parents nor children - None like unto GOD. Yet the meaning lost in translation after centurions of translation which came to realization that in English, that stands for son of GOD. So Bible is not consistent nor logical because it sort of undermine the faith knowing how son of GOD is nailed to death is the source of salvation. Scary, right?

Qibla is direction; compass. Before Holy Kaaba, it was Jerusalem. It is direction, nothing more. Plus there is history in Makkah and Medinah that birthed Islam so naturally, there is emotional ties.

Quran 2:62
Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Quran 3:85
And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

This is just one such incident.

If you have time look at the story of aad and pay special attention to verses 54:19, 41:16 and 69:7.

Another example is 34:44 and 10:47

I could list several more however, my question regarding this is simple and I hope you an answer this. If Quran is the word of God who is all knowing and all powerful and the book is meant for people till the end of eternity why are there abrogation within the Quran? Why did God later change his mind on certain things? (Verses 2:106 and 16:101 talk about abrogation and several verses in the Quran have been abrogated by newer verses. Also by the way, these verses also contract with 6:115 and 10:64)

 

[Musakhel]

Is it impossible? Spreading the earth over a sperical object is it impossible?

 

[uberkoen]

What!? You are totally lost here. I don't need to prove anything. The Quran is there, hence my evidence is on the the table. Your challenge is to fint faults in it.
You can make whatever claims about Vedas, that is your choice. I am saying Quran is truth and if you say it isn't you should come with evidence.
And btw people here are not saying that Quran is not Allahs words. You seem confused too.
And I see what you are trying to do, sorry I dont have so much time for that.

Is it impossible? Spreading the earth over a sperical object is it impossible?

It is possible but then why the verses about a physical location about the setting and rising of the sun and the whole face the Qiblah thing? You need to look at everything combined and not just something in isolation. When you look at all the verses together the assumption one makes is that the earth is flat because of what is written and how it is written.

Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people.

Sunan Abu Dawud 3991—Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.

Moreover, take a look at the following verses which also point towards the assumption that it is the sun and the moon which move causing day and night instead of the earth rotating around the sun

“(God is) the one Who created the night, the day, the sun and the moon. Each one is travelling in an orbit with its own motion” (Sura 21: 33).

It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)(Sura 36: 40).

Moreover, look at the concept of the sun in Hadith and Quran

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421: Narrated Abu Dharr:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west.
And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’" (36.38)

According to the hadith above it is the sun that is going up and down resulting in day and night and not the fact that the earth revolves around the sun which causes this.

 

[troodon]

Is it impossible? Spreading the earth over a sperical object is it impossible?

You can spread a Cloth or Mat on any 3 dimensional regular shape. Does not have to be a Sphere or Oval.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

How can you choose to ignore a verse from the Quran which clearly states that the earth is laid out like a carpet? How is a carpet laid out?

and how do you explain the following verse?

Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: "O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness." (18:86).

The verse which you have pointed to should be seen with reference to Context. Look at the Topic/Subject being discussed in previous verses and verses after this verse ? Are those pointing towards Allah discussing the Plannetary System ? The Sun or Earth ? There physical state ? No. Not at all.


The words "the place were the sunset"; signify the westernmost parts of Cyrus’ Empire or the north-western boundary of Asia Minor and refer to the Black Sea becasue it formed the north-western boundary of the Empire of Cyrus ?

The verse refers to the expedetion which Cyrus undertook agaist his enemies in the West.

"Soon after the conquest of the Midian empire Cyrus was attacked by a ccalition of other powers of the East-Babylon, Egypt and Lydia, joined by Sparta, the greatest military power of Greece. In the spring of 546 Croesus of Lydia began the attack and advanced into Cappadocia, while other powers were still gathering their troops. But Cyrus anticipated them; he defeated Croesus and followed him to his capitsl. In the Autumn of 546 Sardis was taken and the Lydian kingdom became a province of the Persians . . . during the next few years the Persian army supressed a rebellion of the Lydians. The King of Cilcia voluntarily acknowledged the Persian supremacy" (Enc. Brit., & Historians’ History of the World, under Cyrus)

The words, "he found it (the sun) setting in a spring of murky water,"signify that it is not a small pool to which they refer. The waters referred to are so extensive that if one were to take his stand on the shore at the time of sunset, the sun would appear to be setting in the sea.(Tafseer e Sagheer written 100 years ago)

There is no such place where the sun sets or rises. The only way someone could have this opinion was if they thought that the earth was flat. This point is also mentioned in one of the Hadith of the Prophet (ﷺ)

Narrated Abu Dhar:
The Prophet (ﷺ) asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421)

In this Hadith there is probably a misreporting on part of Hazrat Abu Darr RA. A very minute one but it completely changes the meaning. The Word throne. In Hadith the word is Arshh. Prophet Pbuh most probably said Al-Ardd ie Earth but He RA misheard it as Arshh. If you replace Arshh with Al-Ardhh that everything falls in order and that's exactly how this happens. So there is no contradiction.

It wouldn't have been a problem at all if the Quran hadn't mentioned the shape of the earth however, it has and so have Hadith and the concept of the sun rising and setting are also detailed in a way which make it seem as though the earth is flat.

I respectfully do not agree. " Bichona " or " Spread Out " doesn't mean flat or carpet. Earth is not like a small sized egg or tennis ball where if you are standing on it you slide on its circular border. It's massive so even if you run at 100mph per hour on Earth it will remain Spread out for you. It doesn't mean or say that it is a flat bed or it is flat like a carpet etc. Bichona means an area where you can sit or lie down. In the Context of verses Allah mentions the vastness of Earth and it being Liveable.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

He works in mysterious ways.
You are an ignorant person .
You will find this out at the judgement day which is arriving soon when those who held to their faith will be rewarded and heretics like you will be condemned to eternal hell fire.

I see your sarcasm and your burn.

I don't understand why it bothers you that much.

Lets assume for a minute that billions of Muslims are clinging to a falsehood and you (Atheist, Agnostic, Christian or whatever spirituality you claim to believe in) are following the right path.

For a minute let's assume that you are atheist and you believe that Muslims and all other religions are foolish for following a book.

Why does it bother you that we do, that you are worried about hellfire and heresy?

You should keep on your safe slumber and not worry about us.

As far as proving Quran is word of God, there is hardly any proof. The proof is not in this world.

You said you don't believe in any Afterworld.

The tribes of Makkah had the same problem. Muslims were desperately trying to prove that Quran was the right book. The tribes were intent on the fact that there is no Allah or afterlife.

So Allah says and I quote.. and you should be happy this way too.. I am pretty sure...


Sura Kafiroon

" O Disbelievers

" I worship not what ye worship"

"And You worship not what I worship"

"And I shall not worship what Ye Worship"

"And Nor will you worship what I worship"

"Unto you your religion, unto me my religion".


I think that story and surah should cover it. Broadly speaking you can take worship as "what you follow"

And you can take "religion" as what you believe in.

I hope that helps.

I don't want animosities.

I don't care if you believe in what I believe, and neither should you care enough to be sarcastic.

 

[zimmz]

Haven't read the whole thread line by line but IMP it's pointless to scientifically measure the orientation/direction when facing the kaaba while praying it not even a technical in nature. As a group/community of same religion the important point is to have a common focal point. Can you imagine when group of people praying, each of them facing in a different direction?

Kaaba is like a reference/focal point for all of muslim to face so a sense of unity prevails. In situations where the one is not certain of location of kaaba a guestimate is sufficient for example while traveling in a train it is even recommended to just face in the direction of travel.

Also keep in mind before Kaaba was used a central point, it was Jerusalem towards which Prophet and his followers faced while praying.

 

[enkidu_]

The leading scholars of Islam have said that the earth is round, and when the verse mentions the earth as being "spread out" as a bed or a carpet, it's a poetic licence which means what it means : the earth you walk on (not the earth as the spatial object in the universe, but as phenomenological reality to humanity) is "flat", unless you walk on a road in Pakistan, that's normally what everyone experiences - here the Qur'an speaks of the pov from man and the benefits he acquires from it, which is quite explicit in the overall spirit of the verses (the benefits of agriculture, etc are only possible because the earth is a "bed" or "carpet").

That's a Salafi perspective entertained by Saudi scholar Muhammad Al-Munajjid :

https://islamqa.info/en/211655

and one where Suyuti's minor views are discussed :

https://islamabode.wordpress.com/2014/04/18/glorious-quran-shape-of-the-earth/

also :

Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 H / 1328 CE), may Allah be merciful with him, in his famous treatise, ar-Risalah al-'Arshiyah, refutes the position of the neo-Platonic philosophers who identified Allah's Throne with the ninth celestial sphere (Majmu'ul-Fatawa, Vol. 6, pp. 546-ff). In the course of his response, Ibn Taymiyah discusses the question of the earth is it round or flat? He writes:

[That] celestial bodies are round (istidaaratul-aflaak) - as it is the statement of astronomers and mathematicians (ahlul-hay'ah wal-hisab) - it is [likewise] the statement of the scholars of the Muslims; as Abul-Hasan ibn al-Manaadi, Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm, Abul-Faraj ibn al-Jawzi and others have quoted: that the Muslim scholars are in agreement [that all celestial bodies are round]. Indeed Allah - taala - has said: And He (i.e., Allah) it is Who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon. They float, each in a falak. Ibn Abbas says: A falaka like that of a spinning wheel.

Ibn Taymiyah continues: The [word] falak [in the Arabic language] means that which is round. From which is the statement [of the Arabs]: <
> (Vol. 6, pp. 566-567)

In an earlier passage (Vol. 6, pp. 565-566), Ibn Taymiyah discusses why those on the other side of the earth are not below us, just like we are not below them. He writes:

As for the other side of the earth it is surrounded by water. [Note: Admittedly, Ibn Taymiyah - as all Muslim scholars of his day- were not aware of the Americas and believed that the Old World was encompassed by an ocean.] There are no human beings or anything like that [on that side]. Even if we were to imagine that people were on that side of the earth, such individuals would still be on the face of the earth. Those on that side of the earth are not below those who are on this side; just like those on this side are not below those on that side. For as all spherical bodies surround a center point (markaz), no one side of a spherical body is under the other, nor is the north pole under the south [Note: Unlike Western maps, Muslim cartographers (map-makers) would draw the world with the south-side up.] or vice versa.

In another passage (Vol. 5, p. 150) Ibn Taymiyah clearly states the earth is spherical.

Significantly Abu Ya'la in his work Tabaqatal-Hanabilah (Biographical Entries of the Hanabali Scholars) quotes the unanimous consensus (ijma) of all Muslim scholars that the earth is round.

This consensus was mentioned by the scholars of the second generation (the students of the Prophet's Companions) and was based upon Ibn Abbas' explanation to 21:33 (previously cited) and other evidences.

The later belief of Muslim scholars, like as-Suyuti (died 911 AH / 1505 CE) that the earth is flat represents a deviation from this earlier opinion.

http://www.iupui.edu/~msaiupui/earlymuslimcon.htm

 

[aloo paratha]

Personally I think this is just being over thought... Like does it really matter?? Just face in it's general direction, it doesn't have to be so complicated.

Also Qibla is not necessary in prayer, if you know it, then yes face there but lets say I'm in a random place and I have no idea, my prayer will still be accepted.

 

[USHK]

Quran 2:62
Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Quran 3:85
And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

Technically, it is Islam since mankind. It is same commandment of ALLAH sent since mankind. Anyone who believed in Jesus (PBUH) and his Message, Moses (PBUH) and His Messages, Sabeans (PBUTA) and Their Messages will be safe.

And their messages was that believe and practice Monotheism; ONENESS OF GOD.

And that goes Bhagvad Gita as well since it is religion that promotes ONENESS OF GOD and recommends the followers to worship to ONE IMAGELESS GOD - direct title from Bhagvad Gita.

According to Holy Quran, there is not a place GOD didn't send for the civilizations.

This is just one such incident.

If you have time look at the story of aad and pay special attention to verses 54:19, 41:16 and 69:7.

Another example is 34:44 and 10:47

Surah Al-Qamar [54:19]

Indeed, We sent upon them a screaming wind on a day of continuous misfortune.

# After reading Surah Al-Qamar, it is hinted as punishment to those who are deniers.

Surah Fussilat [41:16]

So We sent upon them a screaming wind during days of misfortune to make them taste the punishment of disgrace in the worldly life; but the punishment of the Hereafter is more disgracing, and they will not be helped.

# It is consistent pattern of punishment traits. But more information added in regards to hereafter.


Surah Al-Haqqah [69:7]

Which Allah imposed upon them for seven nights and eight days in succession, so you would see the people therein fallen as if they were hollow trunks of palm trees.

Then do you see of them any remains?

And there came Pharaoh and those before him and the overturned cities with sin.

And they disobeyed the messenger of their Lord, so He seized them with a seizure exceeding [in severity].

# It is consistent pattern of punishment traits. And it aimed to the dictators like Pharoah, the deniers, the corrupters,....etc.

Don't see what points you are trying to make.

I could list several more however, my question regarding this is simple and I hope you an answer this. If Quran is the word of God who is all knowing and all powerful and the book is meant for people till the end of eternity why are there abrogation within the Quran? Why did God later change his mind on certain things? (Verses 2:106 and 16:101 talk about abrogation and several verses in the Quran have been abrogated by newer verses. Also by the way, these verses also contract with 6:115 and 10:64)

Sure and list several more but it is also important you understand the aspects of each Surah with the content and background into the account. So far, i am getting impression that you are not prepared.

Since you have been unable to prove there is abrogation within the Holy Quran, i rest my case. Read Holy Quran again and this time pay attention very carefully.

 

[USHK]

None of the most widely accepted translators of the Quran use the word egg-shaped as a translation of Dohaha. Tafseer Al-Jalalayn clearly mentions on this verse that it is proclaiming the earth to be spread out flat and not referring the earth to be sphere or egg-shaped.

Interpretation given in Al-Jalalayn:

At the earth how it is spread out(*) (Arabic: sutihat): meaning it was stretched, so they can see in it a sign for the power of Allah ... and his saying sutihat makes it obvious that the earth is flat, and this is certified by Ulama' ash-shar'a (the shari'a theologians), not a globe as it is said by ahlul-hay'a (the laymen)."

Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, are two names for the egg of the ostrich. The verb Da'ha (Ydahoo: present tense) is not derived from Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa, because names are derived from the "verb of origin" (fi'l al masdar), and the verb of origin is not derived from a name. The verb of origin is "dahawa" from which the verb "da'ha" and "yadhoo" are derived, and so is the name of the noun denoting the egg. The verb "da'aha" does not mean "kaw'wara" (made round) or made something in the shape of an egg, whether it is an ostrich egg or a chicken's egg. As a matter of fact, the verb "da'ha" means the complete opposite to the concept of the roundness. Here is what "Al-munjid fil'lugha wal'alam" has to say:

"da'ha da'hwan ... God `da'ha' earth that is `basataha'."
And that is exactly what Al-Jalalayn has said.
"da'ha idhiwa'an: `inbisatan'." (that is: flattening)

We read in Sura 96:6 (Ash'shams): "Wal'ardu wa ma ta'haha".
The word "Tahaha" is interpreted in Tafsir Al-Jalalayn as "He made it flat". In Munjid Al-lugha Wal'alam, the word "Taha" is also interpreted as "to flatten or to stretch". Then, the noun "At'taha" is interpreted as "a flat part of the earth". Then, Al-Munjid gives a sentence as an example to confirm the meaning of "taha" as "to make a certain thing flat".

In Sura 15:19 (Al-Hajar), we read: "wal'arda madadnaha wa'alkayna feeha rawasi".
The word "madadnaha" is from the verb "madda", which is a very simple and easy word to understand. Not even a little Arabic child would use this word to describe the shape of a watermelon or a ball. It is the most simple way to describe something flat.

There is debate going on the definition of DOHAHA. You are picking the one that suits your case. There are many arguments that aims at the literal definition of Ostrich egg. There talks about expanding the earth as if it stretching the earth apart to expand which gives remotely possible size of Ostrich egg.

Right now, i posted the one that fits the bill for Ostrich egg - just about round.

In Islam, there is debate on differences due to the translation since it appears today Arabian worlds may not be acquainted with the classic language of Arabic which Holy Quran was revealed.

I am gonna go with the version of Ostrich egg as example since it is consistent and logical to corroborate with the other statements such as the earth is expanding if as if it is stretching apart to expand. Then, there is example of ostrich egg in Hadiths as well.

If you take both Holy Quran and Hadith together into the account, then it makes sense to go with the version that is consistent, and logical to corroborate with the other statements as mentioned above.

 

[USHK]

We read in Sura 96:6 (Ash'shams): "Wal'ardu wa ma ta'haha".
The word "Tahaha" is interpreted in Tafsir Al-Jalalayn as "He made it flat". In Munjid Al-lugha Wal'alam, the word "Taha" is also interpreted as "to flatten or to stretch". Then, the noun "At'taha" is interpreted as "a flat part of the earth". Then, Al-Munjid gives a sentence as an example to confirm the meaning of "taha" as "to make a certain thing flat".

In Sura 15:19 (Al-Hajar), we read: "wal'arda madadnaha wa'alkayna feeha rawasi".
The word "madadnaha" is from the verb "madda", which is a very simple and easy word to understand. Not even a little Arabic child would use this word to describe the shape of a watermelon or a ball. It is the most simple way to describe something flat.

Surah Al-Alaq [96]

Recite in the name of your Lord who created.

Created man from a clinging substance.

Recite, and your Lord is the most Generous.

Who taught by the pen.

Taught man that which he knew not.

No! [But] indeed, man transgresses. [96:6]

Because he sees himself self-sufficient.

Indeed, to your Lord is the return.

Have you seen the one who forbids.

A servant when he prays?

Have you seen if he is upon guidance.

Or enjoins righteousness?

Have you seen if he denies and turns away.

Does he not know that Allah sees?

No! If he does not desist, We will surely drag him by the forelock.

A lying, sinning forelock.

Then let him call his associates;

We will call the angels of Hell.

No! Do not obey him. But prostrate and draw near [to Allah ].


Surah Al-Hijr [15:19]

And the earth - We have spread it and cast therein firmly set mountains and caused to grow therein [something] of every well-balanced thing.


Here is complete Surah Al-Hijr;

1. Alif-Lam-Ra. [These letters are one of the miracles of the Qur'an, and none but Allah (Alone) knows their meanings].

These are the Verses of the Book, and a plain Qur'an.

2. Perhaps (often) will those who disbelieve wish that they were Muslims [those who have submitted themselves to Allah's Will in Islam Islamic Monotheism, this will be on the Day of Resurrection when they will see the disbelievers going to Hell and the Muslims going to Paradise].

3. Leave them to eat and enjoy, and let them be preoccupied with (false) hope. They will come to know!

4. And never did We destroy a township but there was a known decree for it.

5. No nation can anticipate its term, nor delay it.

6. And they say: "O you (Muhammad ) to whom the Dhikr (the Qur'an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man.

7. "Why do you not bring angels to us if you are of the truthful ones?"

8. We send not the angels down except with the truth (i.e. for torment, etc.), and in that case, they (the disbelievers) would have no respite!

9. Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption) .

10. Indeed, We sent Messengers before you (O Muhammad ) amongst the sects (communities) of old.

11. And never came a Messenger to them but they did mock him.

12. Thus do We let it (polytheism and disbelief) enter into the hearts of the Mujrimun [criminals, polytheists, pagans, etc. (because of their mockery at the Messengers)].

13. They would not believe in it (the Qur'an), and already the example of (Allah's punishment of) the ancients (who disbelieved) has gone forth.

14. And even if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they were to continue ascending thereto,

15. They would surely say: "Our eyes have been (as if) dazzled. Nay, we are a people bewitched."

16. And indeed, We have put the big stars in the heaven and We beautified it for the beholders.

17. And We have guarded it (near heaven) from every outcast Shaitan (devil).

18. Except him (devil) that gains hearing by stealing, he is pursued by a clear flaming fire.

19. And the earth We spread out, and placed therein firm mountains, and caused to grow therein all kinds of things in due proportion.

20. And We have provided therein means of living, for you and for those whom you provide not [moving (living) creatures, cattle, beasts, and other animals].

21. And there is not a thing, but with Us are the stores thereof. And We send it not down except in a known measure.

22. And We send the winds fertilizing (to fill heavily the clouds with water), then caused the water (rain) to descend from the sky, and We gave it to you to drink, and it is not you who are the owners of its stores [i.e. to give water to whom you like or to withhold it from whom you like].

23. And certainly We! We it is Who give life, and cause death , and We are the Inheritors.

24. And indeed, We know the first generations of you who had passed away, and indeed, We know the present generations of you (mankind), and also those who will come afterwards.

25. And verily, your Lord will gather them together. Truly, He is All-Wise, All-Knowing.

26. And indeed, We created man from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.

27. And the jinn, We created aforetime from the smokeless flame of fire.

28. And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud.

29. "So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him."

30. So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together.

31. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators.

32. (Allah) said: "O Iblis (Satan)! What is your reason for not being among the prostrators?"

33. [Iblis (Satan)] said: "I am not the one to prostrate myself to a human being, whom You created from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud."

34. (Allah) said: "Then, get out from here, for verily, you are Rajim (an outcast or a cursed one)." [Tafsir At-Tabari]

35. "And verily, the curse shall be upon you till the Day of Recompense (i.e. the Day of Resurrection)."

36. [Iblis (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Give me then respite till the Day they (the dead) will be resurrected."

37. Allah said: "Then, verily, you are of those reprieved,

38. "Till the Day of the time appointed."

39. [Iblis (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me, I shall indeed adorn the path of error for them (mankind) on the earth, and I shall mislead them all.

40. "Except Your chosen, (guided) slaves among them."

41. (Allah) said: "This is the Way which will lead straight to Me."

42. "Certainly, you shall have no authority over My slaves, except those who follow you of the Ghawin (Mushrikun and those who go astray, criminals, polytheists, and evil-doers, etc.).

43. "And surely, Hell is the promised place for them all.

44. "It (Hell) has seven gates, for each of those gates is a (special) class (of sinners) assigned.

45. "Truly! The Muttaqun (pious and righteous persons - see V.2:2) will be amidst Gardens and water-springs (Paradise).

46. "(It will be said to them): 'Enter therein (Paradise), in peace and security.'

47. "And We shall remove from their breasts any sense of injury (that they may have), (So they will be like) brothers facing each other on thrones.

48. "No sense of fatigue shall touch them, nor shall they (ever) be asked to leave it."

49. Declare (O Muhammad ) unto My slaves, that truly, I am the Oft-Forgiving, the Most-Merciful.

50. And that My Torment is indeed the most painful torment.

51. And tell them about the guests (the angels) of Ibrahim (Abraham).

52. When they entered unto him, and said: Salaman (peace)! [Ibrahim (Abraham)] said: "Indeed! We are afraid of you."

53. They (the angels) said: "Do not be afraid! We give you glad tidings of a boy (son) possessing much knowledge and wisdom."

54. [Ibrahim (Abraham)] said: "Do you give me glad tidings (of a son) when old age has overtaken me? Of what then is your news?"

55. They (the angels) said: "We give you glad tidings in truth. So be not of the despairing ones."

56. [Ibrahim (Abraham)] said: "And who despairs of the Mercy of his Lord except those who are astray?"

57. [Ibrahim (Abraham) again] said: "What then is the business on which you have come, O Messengers?"

58. They (the angels) said: "We have been sent to a people who are Mujrimun (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners).

59. "(All) except the family of Lout (Lot). Them all we are surely going to save (from destruction).

60. "Except his wife, of whom We have decreed that she shall be of those who remain behind (i.e. she will be destroyed)."

61. Then, when the Messengers (the angels) came unto the family of Lout (Lot).

62. He said: "Verily! You are people unknown to me."

63. They said: "Nay, we have come to you with that (torment) which they have been doubting.

64. "And we have brought to you the truth (the news of the destruction of your nation) and certainly, we tell the truth.

65. "Then travel in a part of the night with your family, and you go behind them in the rear, and let no one amongst you look back, but go on to where you are ordered."

66. And We made known this decree to him, that the root of those (sinners) was to be cut off in the early morning.

67. And the inhabitants of the city came rejoicing (at the news of the young men's arrival).

68. [Lout (Lot)] said: "Verily! these are my guests, so shame me not.

69. "And fear Allah and disgrace me not."

70. They (people of the city) said: "Did we not forbid you to entertain (or protect) any of the 'Alamin (people, foreigners, strangers, etc. from us)?"

71. [Lout (Lot)] said: "These (the girls of the nation) are my daughters (to marry lawfully), if you must act (so)."

72. Verily, by your life (O Muhammad ), in their wild intoxication, they were wandering blindly.

73. So As-Saihah (torment - awful cry, etc.) overtook them at the time of sunrise;

74. And We turned (the towns of Sodom in Palestine) upside down and rained down on them stones of baked clay.

75. Surely! In this are signs, for those who see (or understand or learn the lessons from the Signs of Allah).

76. And verily! They (the cities) were right on the highroad (from Makkah to Syria i.e. the place where the Dead Sea is now) .

77. Surely! Therein is indeed a sign for the believers.

78. And the dwellers in the wood [i.e. the people of Madyan (Midian) to whom Prophet Shu'aib () was sent by Allah), were also Zalimun (polytheists and wrong-doers, etc.).

79. So, We took vengeance on them. They are both on an open highway, plain to see.

80. And verily, the dwellers of Al-Hijr (the rocky tract) denied the Messengers.

81. And We gave them Our Signs, but they were averse to them.

82. And they used to hew out dwellings from the mountains (feeling themselves) secure.

83. But As-Saihah (torment - awful cry etc.) overtook them in the early morning (of the fourth day of their promised punishment days).

84. And all that which they used to earn availed them not.

85. And We created not the heavens and the earth and all that is between them except with truth, and the Hour is surely coming, so overlook (O Muhammad ), their faults with gracious forgiveness. [This was before the ordainment of Jihad holy fighting in Allah's Cause].

86. Verily, your Lord is the All-Knowing Creator.

87. And indeed, We have bestowed upon you seven of Al-Mathani (the seven repeatedly recited Verses), (i.e. Surat Al-Fatiha) and the Grand Qur'an .

88. Look not with your eyes ambitiously at what We have bestowed on certain classes of them (the disbelievers), nor grieve over them. And lower your wings for the believers (be courteous to the fellow-believers).

89. And say: "I am indeed a plain warner."

90. As We have sent down on the dividers, (Quraish pagans or Jews and Christians).

91. Who have made the Qur'an into parts. (i.e. believed in a part and disbelieved in the other).

92. So, by your Lord (O Muhammad ), We shall certainly call all of them to account.

93. For all that they used to do.

94. Therefore proclaim openly (Allah's Message Islamic Monotheism) that which you are commanded, and turn away from Al-Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, and disbelievers, etc. - see V.2:105).

95. Truly! We will suffice you against the scoffers.

96. Who set up along with Allah another ilah (god), they will come to know.

97. Indeed, We know that your breast is straitened at what they say.

98. So glorify the praises of your Lord and be of those who prostrate themselves (to Him).

99. And worship your Lord until there comes unto you the certainty (i.e. death).

 

[uberkoen]

There is debate going on the definition of DOHAHA. You are picking the one that suits your case. There are many arguments that aims at the literal definition of Ostrich egg. There talks about expanding the earth as if it stretching the earth apart to expand which gives remotely possible size of Ostrich egg.

Right now, i posted the one that fits the bill for Ostrich egg - just about round.

In Islam, there is debate on differences due to the translation since it appears today Arabian worlds may not be acquainted with the classic language of Arabic which Holy Quran was revealed.

I am gonna go with the version of Ostrich egg as example since it is consistent and logical to corroborate with the other statements such as the earth is expanding if as if it is stretching apart to expand. Then, there is example of ostrich egg in Hadiths as well.

If you take both Holy Quran and Hadith together into the account, then it makes sense to go with the version that is consistent, and logical to corroborate with the other statements as mentioned above.

I'm not picking the one that suits me. I'm picking up the definition provided by the most widely accepted English translations of the Holy Quran. The most widely accepted English translations of the Holy Quran are by Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali, Muhammad Taqi al-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Abdul Majid Daryabadi, Marmaduke Pickthall, Mohammed Asad and for most academics, the translation of choice is that of Arthur Arberry.

None of these aforementioned translations refer to an ostrich egg when translating the verse in question. So, I'm not picking the 'one' that suits me. I'm picking it up from several of the most widely accepted English translations of the Quran. The opinion that you have seems to be one of minority and the translation not recognized by any major English translator or Islamic community.

Secondly, you talk about a reference to an ostrich egg in a Hadith but you fail to quote the hadith. Is it because it is out of context? Please tell us the Hadith and provide the reference so I can also connect the dots as you seem to have done.

 

[uberkoen]

Technically, it is Islam since mankind. It is same commandment of ALLAH sent since mankind. Anyone who believed in Jesus (PBUH) and his Message, Moses (PBUH) and His Messages, Sabeans (PBUTA) and Their Messages will be safe.

And their messages was that believe and practice Monotheism; ONENESS OF GOD.

And that goes Bhagvad Gita as well since it is religion that promotes ONENESS OF GOD and recommends the followers to worship to ONE IMAGELESS GOD - direct title from Bhagvad Gita.

According to Holy Quran, there is not a place GOD didn't send for the civilizations.

What does that have to do with the the contradiction I posted? One verse says Jews and Christians will be forgiven and the second says only those who accept Islam will be safe in the hereafter. Do you not see the contradiction in the two verses?

Surah Al-Qamar [54:19]

Indeed, We sent upon them a screaming wind on a day of continuous misfortune.

# After reading Surah Al-Qamar, it is hinted as punishment to those who are deniers.

Surah Fussilat [41:16]

So We sent upon them a screaming wind during days of misfortune to make them taste the punishment of disgrace in the worldly life; but the punishment of the Hereafter is more disgracing, and they will not be helped.

# It is consistent pattern of punishment traits. But more information added in regards to hereafter.


Surah Al-Haqqah [69:7]

Which Allah imposed upon them for seven nights and eight days in succession, so you would see the people therein fallen as if they were hollow trunks of palm trees.

Then do you see of them any remains?

And there came Pharaoh and those before him and the overturned cities with sin.

And they disobeyed the messenger of their Lord, so He seized them with a seizure exceeding [in severity].

# It is consistent pattern of punishment traits. And it aimed to the dictators like Pharoah, the deniers, the corrupters,....etc.

Don't see what points you are trying to make.

You don't see the point I'm trying to make because you don't know the context of the verses which I references. All verses are talking about the punishment that came down on the people of aad. All verses are referring to the same event, the same people and the same punishment yet the duration of the punishment changes in each verse.[/quote]

Sure and list several more but it is also important you understand the aspects of each Surah with the content and background into the account. So far, i am getting impression that you are not prepared.

Since you have been unable to prove there is abrogation within the Holy Quran, i rest my case. Read Holy Quran again and this time pay attention very carefully.

You're getting the idea I'm not prepared? You have no idea that the verses are referring to the story of the people of aad and you fail to see the contractions in all the verses and you think i'm not prepared. Funny stuff.

 

[uberkoen]

If Holy Quran is not the word of GOD, then prove it. GOD challenges you to do that. The ball is in your court.

Since you have been unable to prove there is abrogation within the Holy Quran, i rest my case. Read Holy Quran again and this time pay attention very carefully.

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? (2:106)

And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.(16:101)

I don't need to prove abrogation. It is mentioned in the Quran that it exists. Have you even read the Quran?

Fact of the matter is that an all knowing, all seeing God would not need abrogation. Why would God need to change his mind? Why would God send a 'better' verse to abrogate an older inferior verse? Did God suddenly change his mind or did God come up with something better because he had more time to think over the verse? An all knowing all seeing God wouldn't need abrogation, would he? He would get it right the first time.

 

[uberkoen]

View attachment 74263

I just saw this image again. LOL. That is not the shape of the earth. Earth is an oblate sphere. Flattened at the poles and bulges at the equator. It definitely is not shaped anything like an ostrich egg nor does it look anything like in the picture above.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

Well if the earth isn't flat, north south east and west are inaccurate directions, no?

Even right and left are meaningless directions on the surface of a spherical planet...do we stop referring to things as being on the "right" or the "left"?

Much ado about nothing.

In outer space for example there is no "up" or "down" because there is no gravity. You need a frame of reference for any directionality.

 

[uberkoen]

Well if the earth isn't flat, north south east and west are inaccurate directions, no?

Even right and left are meaningless directions on the surface of a spherical planet...do we stop referring to things as being on the "right" or the "left"?

Much ado about nothing.

ROFLMAO

What a gem of a post.

You're a legend bro.

 

[uberkoen]

Well if the earth isn't flat, north south east and west are inaccurate directions, no?

Even right and left are meaningless directions on the surface of a spherical planet...do we stop referring to things as being on the "right" or the "left"?

Much ado about nothing.

In outer space for example there is no "up" or "down" because there is no gravity. You need a frame of reference for any directionality.

North and South aren't up and down. Read up on the poles and while you're at it read up on the prime meridian to understand what east and west are.

 

[USHK]

I'm not picking the one that suits me. I'm picking up the definition provided by the most widely accepted English translations of the Holy Quran. The most widely accepted English translations of the Holy Quran are by Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali, Muhammad Taqi al-Din al-Hilali and Muhammad Muhsin Khan, Abdul Majid Daryabadi, Marmaduke Pickthall, Mohammed Asad and for most academics, the translation of choice is that of Arthur Arberry.

None of these aforementioned translations refer to an ostrich egg when translating the verse in question. So, I'm not picking the 'one' that suits me. I'm picking it up from several of the most widely accepted English translations of the Quran. The opinion that you have seems to be one of minority and the translation not recognized by any major English translator or Islamic community.

Secondly, you talk about a reference to an ostrich egg in a Hadith but you fail to quote the hadith. Is it because it is out of context? Please tell us the Hadith and provide the reference so I can also connect the dots as you seem to have done.

There is debate going on the definition of DOHAHA. There is two versions here that endorses the theory of flat and round. You picked the one that suited your case and similarity i picked the one that suited my case but backed with Hadiths as well, hence the example, Ostrich egg.

Again, there is two sides of theory that is debating on the definition of DOAHAHA.

 

[USHK]

What does that have to do with the the contradiction I posted? One verse says Jews and Christians will be forgiven and the second says only those who accept Islam will be safe in the hereafter. Do you not see the contradiction in the two verses?

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I posted the explanation not long ago.



Technically, it is Islam since mankind. It is same commandment of ALLAH sent since mankind. Anyone who believed in Jesus (PBUH) and his Message, Moses (PBUH) and His Messages, Sabeans (PBUTA) and Their Messages will be safe.

And their messages was that believe and practice Monotheism; ONENESS OF GOD.

And that goes Bhagvad Gita as well since it is religion that promotes ONENESS OF GOD and recommends the followers to worship to ONE IMAGELESS GOD - direct title from Bhagvad Gita.

According to Holy Quran, there is not a place GOD didn't send for the civilizations.

How is that contradiction? You clearly didn't understand the Surah properly. Picking one line without the context and background will make you convinced that there is contradiction when there isn't.

I posted the whole context and background for a reason.

You don't see the point I'm trying to make because you don't know the context of the verses which I references. All verses are talking about the punishment that came down on the people of aad. All verses are referring to the same event, the same people and the same punishment yet the duration of the punishment changes in each verse.

[/QUOTE]

To me, the traits of punishment is consistent but laid down to different civilizations in different era.

This is what happens you pick few lines of taking the whole Surah into account and the next thing you are pointing out contradiction where there is no contradiction to begin never mind the fact that the contexts [different civilization in different era] has been overlooked in your case.

You have yet to make your case that there is contradiction. Only you see there is contradiction while to me the traits of punishment is consistent throughout the history of mankind.

You're getting the idea I'm not prepared? You have no idea that the verses are referring to the story of the people of aad and you fail to see the contractions in all the verses and you think i'm not prepared. Funny stuff.

Picking few lines instead of the whole Surah into the account does sound like you are prepared which apparently you are the only one who sees the contradiction in those verses.

 

[USHK]

We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent? (2:106)

And when We substitute a verse in place of a verse - and Allah is most knowing of what He sends down - they say, "You, [O Muhammad], are but an inventor [of lies]." But most of them do not know.(16:101)

I don't need to prove abrogation. It is mentioned in the Quran that it exists. Have you even read the Quran?

Fact of the matter is that an all knowing, all seeing God would not need abrogation. Why would God need to change his mind? Why would God send a 'better' verse to abrogate an older inferior verse? Did God suddenly change his mind or did God come up with something better because he had more time to think over the verse? An all knowing all seeing God wouldn't need abrogation, would he? He would get it right the first time.

Again with the few lines while overlooking the whole context and the background from the whole Surah into the account. That is problem with you.

Surah Al-Baqarah is very long and i am gonna post few lines to give you some clarity since reading is not your strength.

Surah Al-Baqarah:

* We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

* Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and [that] you have not besides Allah any protector or any helper?

* Or do you intend to ask your Messenger as Moses was asked before? And whoever exchanges faith for disbelief has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.

* Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

* And establish prayer and give zakah, and whatever good you put forward for yourselves - you will find it with Allah. Indeed, Allah of what you do, is Seeing.

* And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."

* Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

* The Jews say "The Christians have nothing [true] to stand on," and the Christians say, "The Jews have nothing to stand on," although they [both] recite the Scripture. Thus the polytheists speak the same as their words. But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.

* And who are more unjust than those who prevent the name of Allah from being mentioned in His mosques and strive toward their destruction. It is not for them to enter them except in fear. For them in this world is disgrace, and they will have in the Hereafter a great punishment.

* And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allah . Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

* They say, "Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him,

* Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.

* Those who do not know say, "Why does Allah not speak to us or there come to us a sign?" Thus spoke those before them like their words. Their hearts resemble each other. We have shown clearly the signs to a people who are certain [in faith].

* Indeed, We have sent you, [O Muhammad], with the truth as a bringer of good tidings and a warner, and you will not be asked about the companions of Hellfire.

* And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper.

* Those to whom We have given the Book recite it with its true recital. They [are the ones who] believe in it. And whoever disbelieves in it - it is they who are the losers.

* O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.

* And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, and no compensation will be accepted from it, nor will any intercession benefit it, nor will they be aided.

It is still not finished - very very long Surah that talks about the followers of other Abrahamaic faiths will be judged. Only Islam enters the criteria because Islam is about ONENESS OF GOD. Similarity, if the followers of Jesus (PBUH) believe him as Prophet of GOD instead of son of GOD, and practices Monotheism which is Islam way, then they have case. Otherwise, it is polytheism which contradicts Monotheist Islam, and that goes for other faiths before Islam.

You pick one line and you make your entire case about contradiction which only you make the case on contradiction from the one line overlooking the context and the background while comparing to other verses that has whole other context and background to make the case.

Again, read the whole Surah. I promise you that you will have better understanding to make your case.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

You are not getting the point.The ONUS is on you to prove that Quran is the word of God and not us.You were the one who came up with the claim hence it's your responsibility to bring forth the evidence which can convince us.
I can make a similar claim regarding infallibility of Vedas.Wouldn't change a thing.

So you expect us humans to prove that the Quran is the Word of Allah while using hardly 10% of our brain and when we can't even explain how our own brain works.

Yeah go on humans, fool yourselves.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

I just saw this image again. LOL. That is not the shape of the earth. Earth is an oblate sphere. Flattened at the poles and bulges at the equator. It definitely is not shaped anything like an ostrich egg nor does it look anything like in the picture above.

After reading each and every reply of yours, I'm pretty much sure that you won't finish this thread until your point is proven even though many reasonable and legitimate arguments have been laid against your point but you just keep on ignoring them as vague/not-accepted/illogical.

Just getting stuck at the phrase "carpet laid out" isn't helping you or anyone else on this thread.

So if you opened a thread then open up your mind as well and let the argument move forward. Just picking stuff randomly which favors your point is not worthy of a debate/argument since you aren't accepting anything remotely opposing your view.

 

[TM Riddle]

So you expect us humans to prove that the Quran is the Word of Allah while using hardly 10% of our brain and when we can't even explain how our own brain works.

Yeah go on humans, fool yourselves.

Then stop coming with the ridiculous claims of word of God and what not.
And where did you pick this 10% theory from, I'm curious.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Then stop coming with the ridiculous claims of word of God and what not.
And where did you pick this 10% theory from, I'm curious.

Well the book which hasn't ever been proven wrong in 1500+ years is obviously word of god. We as humans don't have the capacity to PROVE our creator's book as the only true word. I challenge anyone to differ with me on the 1st sentence.

How can people possibly question the Quran? A books that tells you the shape of a human embryo 1500+ years ago is obviously not written by a human. IMO that fact alone is enough for me to believe it as the absolute word of God.

As far as the 10% theory is concerned then people have differing opinions of it being a myth or a fact but I believe that we have never used our brains to maximum effectiveness otherwise every 3rd grader would've been solving bachelor's level calculus. In fact, the interesting part is that there have been quite a few mathematicians who could actually solve complex calculus at a ridiculously young age which just goes to show that we aren't using our 100% of our brain.

 

[TM Riddle]

Well the book which hasn't ever been proven wrong in 1500 years is obviously word of god. We as humans don't have the capacity to PROVE our creator's book as the only true word. I challenge anyone to differ with me on the 1st sentence.

How can people possibly question the Quran? A books that tells you the shape of a human embryo 1500 years ago is obviously not written by a human. IMO that fact alone is enough for me to believe it as the absolute word of God.

Surgical techniques were developed in ancient India long before Islam even existed but no one attributes that to God.Maybe for Arabs something like that would come under miracle since they were primitive backward people but rest assured the other civilizations of the world were fairly advanced enough.
Re Quran not being challenged by anyone, well if you declare the dissidents as heretics and chop their heads off as punishment, I guess there wasn't much scope in writing a critique on it.Besides what is there to prove anyway, it's just a normal book with nothing extraordinary about it.What exactly do you want me to disapprove?
And please provide some concrete proof in the support of your 10% theory and not the half baked truths you picked up from some obscure internet websites.

 

[Heisenberg]

Again with the few lines while overlooking the whole context and the background from the whole Surah into the account. That is problem with you.

Surah Al-Baqarah is very long and i am gonna post few lines to give you some clarity since reading is not your strength.

Surah Al-Baqarah:

* We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

* Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and [that] you have not besides Allah any protector or any helper?

* Or do you intend to ask your Messenger as Moses was asked before? And whoever exchanges faith for disbelief has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.

* Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

* And establish prayer and give zakah, and whatever good you put forward for yourselves - you will find it with Allah. Indeed, Allah of what you do, is Seeing.

* And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."

* Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

* The Jews say "The Christians have nothing [true] to stand on," and the Christians say, "The Jews have nothing to stand on," although they [both] recite the Scripture. Thus the polytheists speak the same as their words. But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.

* And who are more unjust than those who prevent the name of Allah from being mentioned in His mosques and strive toward their destruction. It is not for them to enter them except in fear. For them in this world is disgrace, and they will have in the Hereafter a great punishment.

* And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allah . Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

* They say, "Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him,

* Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.

* Those who do not know say, "Why does Allah not speak to us or there come to us a sign?" Thus spoke those before them like their words. Their hearts resemble each other. We have shown clearly the signs to a people who are certain [in faith].

* Indeed, We have sent you, [O Muhammad], with the truth as a bringer of good tidings and a warner, and you will not be asked about the companions of Hellfire.

* And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper.

* Those to whom We have given the Book recite it with its true recital. They [are the ones who] believe in it. And whoever disbelieves in it - it is they who are the losers.

* O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.

* And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, and no compensation will be accepted from it, nor will any intercession benefit it, nor will they be aided.

It is still not finished - very very long Surah that talks about the followers of other Abrahamaic faiths will be judged. Only Islam enters the criteria because Islam is about ONENESS OF GOD. Similarity, if the followers of Jesus (PBUH) believe him as Prophet of GOD instead of son of GOD, and practices Monotheism which is Islam way, then they have case. Otherwise, it is polytheism which contradicts Monotheist Islam, and that goes for other faiths before Islam.

You pick one line and you make your entire case about contradiction which only you make the case on contradiction from the one line overlooking the context and the background while comparing to other verses that has whole other context and background to make the case.

Again, read the whole Surah. I promise you that you will have better understanding to make your case.

You do realise that abrogation in the Qur'an is a widely accepted mainstream fact?

 

[Heisenberg]

Well the book which hasn't ever been proven wrong in 1500+ years is obviously word of god. We as humans don't have the capacity to PROVE our creator's book as the only true word. I challenge anyone to differ with me on the 1st sentence.

How can people possibly question the Quran? A books that tells you the shape of a human embryo 1500+ years ago is obviously not written by a human. IMO that fact alone is enough for me to believe it as the absolute word of God.

What it says about the shape is debatable at best. It also says the bones come before the muscle. It also says sperm comes from between the ribs.

As for proving the Qur'an wrong, nobody wants to die. But the internet can't be killed so search away.

 

[Jin Chacha]

Why is everyone so adamant about finding the shape of the earth in the Quran? God by definition isn't under any obligation to give us a geography lesson and religion by definition doesn't need validation from science. It is a take it or leave it deal.

 

[uberkoen]

After reading each and every reply of yours, I'm pretty much sure that you won't finish this thread until your point is proven even though many reasonable and legitimate arguments have been laid against your point but you just keep on ignoring them as vague/not-accepted/illogical.

Just getting stuck at the phrase "carpet laid out" isn't helping you or anyone else on this thread.

So if you opened a thread then open up your mind as well and let the argument move forward. Just picking stuff randomly which favors your point is not worthy of a debate/argument since you aren't accepting anything remotely opposing your view.

I think you missed the points that I made. There are several more points than just the carpet laid out point. There's the story about the sun setting and rising from a specific location and several other verses and hadith which point to the fact that the Quran believes the earth to be flat.

Can you please point me towards an answer which adequately counters the argument I made as I may have missed it. The only good counter arguments I have seen are those by [MENTION=139386]Jin Chacha[/MENTION] and [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] and I'd suggest you have a look at their replies.

The rest of the people are trying to present counter arguments which do not hold up against the facts and all I'm doing is replying to those.

again, as I said, If I've missed something please point me in the right direction

 

[uberkoen]

Again with the few lines while overlooking the whole context and the background from the whole Surah into the account. That is problem with you.

Surah Al-Baqarah is very long and i am gonna post few lines to give you some clarity since reading is not your strength.

Surah Al-Baqarah:

* We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?

* Do you not know that to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and [that] you have not besides Allah any protector or any helper?

* Or do you intend to ask your Messenger as Moses was asked before? And whoever exchanges faith for disbelief has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.

* Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent.

* And establish prayer and give zakah, and whatever good you put forward for yourselves - you will find it with Allah. Indeed, Allah of what you do, is Seeing.

* And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."

* Yes [on the contrary], whoever submits his face in Islam to Allah while being a doer of good will have his reward with his Lord. And no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

* The Jews say "The Christians have nothing [true] to stand on," and the Christians say, "The Jews have nothing to stand on," although they [both] recite the Scripture. Thus the polytheists speak the same as their words. But Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.

* And who are more unjust than those who prevent the name of Allah from being mentioned in His mosques and strive toward their destruction. It is not for them to enter them except in fear. For them in this world is disgrace, and they will have in the Hereafter a great punishment.

* And to Allah belongs the east and the west. So wherever you [might] turn, there is the Face of Allah . Indeed, Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.

* They say, "Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him,

* Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.

* Those who do not know say, "Why does Allah not speak to us or there come to us a sign?" Thus spoke those before them like their words. Their hearts resemble each other. We have shown clearly the signs to a people who are certain [in faith].

* Indeed, We have sent you, [O Muhammad], with the truth as a bringer of good tidings and a warner, and you will not be asked about the companions of Hellfire.

* And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper.

* Those to whom We have given the Book recite it with its true recital. They [are the ones who] believe in it. And whoever disbelieves in it - it is they who are the losers.

* O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.

* And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, and no compensation will be accepted from it, nor will any intercession benefit it, nor will they be aided.

It is still not finished - very very long Surah that talks about the followers of other Abrahamaic faiths will be judged. Only Islam enters the criteria because Islam is about ONENESS OF GOD. Similarity, if the followers of Jesus (PBUH) believe him as Prophet of GOD instead of son of GOD, and practices Monotheism which is Islam way, then they have case. Otherwise, it is polytheism which contradicts Monotheist Islam, and that goes for other faiths before Islam.

You pick one line and you make your entire case about contradiction which only you make the case on contradiction from the one line overlooking the context and the background while comparing to other verses that has whole other context and background to make the case.

Again, read the whole Surah. I promise you that you will have better understanding to make your case.

You post an entire Surah yet you don't address the point. Now that you've posted the entire Surah can you please state your point as well because even after reading it the verse stands out that abrogation is accepted by the Quran. (By the way almost all muslim scholars also accept abrogation int he Quran).

Nothing has changed by you posting the entire Surah. My point still stands. There is abrogation in the quran. What's your point?

 

[uberkoen]

There is debate going on the definition of DOHAHA. There is two versions here that endorses the theory of flat and round. You picked the one that suited your case and similarity i picked the one that suited my case but backed with Hadiths as well, hence the example, Ostrich egg.

Again, there is two sides of theory that is debating on the definition of DOAHAHA.

There is no debate going on. If there was a debate going on you would have posted at least one half decent reference to your point of view. Please point me in the direction of any widely accepts English translators that have used the word egg shaped as translation of this verse.

I posted the most widely accepted English Translators of the Quran. Do you have any doubts on this? If not, then the fact remains that there is no debate at all or you're saying most of the world is reading the incorrect translations except for you?

 

[uberkoen]

Do you have reading comprehension problems? I posted the explanation not long ago.



Technically, it is Islam since mankind. It is same commandment of ALLAH sent since mankind. Anyone who believed in Jesus (PBUH) and his Message, Moses (PBUH) and His Messages, Sabeans (PBUTA) and Their Messages will be safe.

And their messages was that believe and practice Monotheism; ONENESS OF GOD.

And that goes Bhagvad Gita as well since it is religion that promotes ONENESS OF GOD and recommends the followers to worship to ONE IMAGELESS GOD - direct title from Bhagvad Gita.

According to Holy Quran, there is not a place GOD didn't send for the civilizations.

How is that contradiction? You clearly didn't understand the Surah properly. Picking one line without the context and background will make you convinced that there is contradiction when there isn't.

I posted the whole context and background for a reason.

To me, the traits of punishment is consistent but laid down to different civilizations in different era.

This is what happens you pick few lines of taking the whole Surah into account and the next thing you are pointing out contradiction where there is no contradiction to begin never mind the fact that the contexts [different civilization in different era] has been overlooked in your case.

You have yet to make your case that there is contradiction. Only you see there is contradiction while to me the traits of punishment is consistent throughout the history of mankind.




Picking few lines instead of the whole Surah into the account does sound like you are prepared which apparently you are the only one who sees the contradiction in those verses.[/QUOTE]

Oh bhai. Go and read Tafsir of the Surah's I mentioned instead of saying "to me this is saying this..."

Please go and educate yourself.

All the verses I mentioned talk about the SAME INCIDENT. Do you know what that means? I can't understand what you're arguing about here. How can you say they refer to different incidents when the Quran itself mentions that it is talking about the punishment received by the people of aad in all the cases stated above.

 

[uberkoen]

Well the book which hasn't ever been proven wrong in 1500+ years is obviously word of god. We as humans don't have the capacity to PROVE our creator's book as the only true word. I challenge anyone to differ with me on the 1st sentence.

How can people possibly question the Quran? A books that tells you the shape of a human embryo 1500+ years ago is obviously not written by a human. IMO that fact alone is enough for me to believe it as the absolute word of God.

As far as the 10% theory is concerned then people have differing opinions of it being a myth or a fact but I believe that we have never used our brains to maximum effectiveness otherwise every 3rd grader would've been solving bachelor's level calculus. In fact, the interesting part is that there have been quite a few mathematicians who could actually solve complex calculus at a ridiculously young age which just goes to show that we aren't using our 100% of our brain.

Can you please answer my question regarding abrogation in Quran? Why did the all knowing all seeing all wise God change his mind or how did he come out with a verse that was better than the one he came out with before? You'd think a God wouldn't just change his mind on the Quran which is meant to be his last word to the people.

Also considering the fact that there had been books by the same God earlier wouldn't that mean that by this time God would know what to send down. Yet there are several cases of abrogation. Why is that so?

 

[uberkoen]

Well the book which hasn't ever been proven wrong in 1500+ years is obviously word of god. We as humans don't have the capacity to PROVE our creator's book as the only true word. I challenge anyone to differ with me on the 1st sentence.

How can people possibly question the Quran? A books that tells you the shape of a human embryo 1500+ years ago is obviously not written by a human. IMO that fact alone is enough for me to believe it as the absolute word of God.

As far as the 10% theory is concerned then people have differing opinions of it being a myth or a fact but I believe that we have never used our brains to maximum effectiveness otherwise every 3rd grader would've been solving bachelor's level calculus. In fact, the interesting part is that there have been quite a few mathematicians who could actually solve complex calculus at a ridiculously young age which just goes to show that we aren't using our 100% of our brain.

There are several places where the Quran is wrong. The Quran refers to the moon as a source of light which it is not.

Look at the following Hadith

"A Jewish rabbi, Abdulla bin Salam approached the Messenger, 'I am going to ask you three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken in Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its mother.' Allah's Apostle said, 'Gabriel has just now told me of the answers.' 'Gabriel, from among all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews.' 'The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring the people from east to west. The first meal of Paradise will be caudate lobe of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of a child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble him, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her.' On that the rabbi said, 'I testify you are the Apostle of Allah, and that Jews are liars.'"

Apparently, as per the hadith, the answer to the question was a divine revelation. However, the answer about who the baby looks like is completely incorrect. Experts estimate that there are 60,000 to 100,000 genes (made up of DNA) in a human being's 46 chromosomes. A baby gets 23 chromosomes from his mother and 23 from his father. With all the possible gene combinations, one pair of parents has the potential to produce 64 trillion different children. It has nothing to do with who ejaculates first.

Also, please go read up on how the verses of the veil were revealed to the Prophet (after Hazrat Umar pushing him several times to make this mandatory). If Hazrat Umar wanted a revelation why didn't he just pray to God for it instead of pushing the Prophet for this? ..and then the revelation came after Hazrat Umar followed one of the prophets wife when she went to answer the call of nature. Here is the Hadith on this:

'A'isha reported that the wives of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) used to go out in the cover of night when they went to open fields (in the outskirts of Medina) for easing themselves. 'Umar b Khattab used to say: Allah's Messenger, ask your ladies to observe veil, but Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not do that. So there went out Sauda, daughter of Zarn'a, the wife of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall statured lady. 'Umar called her saying: Sauda, we recognise you. (He did this with the hope that the verses pertaining to veil would be revealed.) 'A'isha said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, then revealed the verses pertaining to veil. (Sahih Muslim 26:5397)

The hadith is also in Sahih Bukhari (1 : 4 : 148 and 8 : 74 : 257)

Of course this brings up some obvious questions:

If Muhammad is just a messenger, relating Allah's word, why did Umar ask Muhammad for the hijab revelation? Why did he not just pray to Allah and ask directly?

No revelation was sent down until Umar spied on Muhammad's own wives. Why did Umar do this? How did he know (or at least suspect) it would be successful? Why does Allah care about toilet privacy so much that he revealed a verse pertaining to all Muslim women that will ever live?

There is also an instance where Hazrat Aisha questioned the Prophet. Look at the following Hadith

Narrated Aisha:

I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah's Apostle and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will;
and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).' (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." (Sahih al-Bukhari Book 60 Hadith 311)

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

There are several places where the Quran is wrong. The Quran refers to the moon as a source of light which it is not.

Look at the following Hadith

"A Jewish rabbi, Abdulla bin Salam approached the Messenger, 'I am going to ask you three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken in Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its mother.' Allah's Apostle said, 'Gabriel has just now told me of the answers.' 'Gabriel, from among all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews.' 'The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring the people from east to west. The first meal of Paradise will be caudate lobe of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of a child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble him, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her.' On that the rabbi said, 'I testify you are the Apostle of Allah, and that Jews are liars.'"

Apparently, as per the hadith, the answer to the question was a divine revelation. However, the answer about who the baby looks like is completely incorrect. Experts estimate that there are 60,000 to 100,000 genes (made up of DNA) in a human being's 46 chromosomes. A baby gets 23 chromosomes from his mother and 23 from his father. With all the possible gene combinations, one pair of parents has the potential to produce 64 trillion different children. It has nothing to do with who ejaculates first.

Also, please go read up on how the verses of the veil were revealed to the Prophet (after Hazrat Umar pushing him several times to make this mandatory). If Hazrat Umar wanted a revelation why didn't he just pray to God for it instead of pushing the Prophet for this? ..and then the revelation came after Hazrat Umar followed one of the prophets wife when she went to answer the call of nature. Here is the Hadith on this:

'A'isha reported that the wives of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) used to go out in the cover of night when they went to open fields (in the outskirts of Medina) for easing themselves. 'Umar b Khattab used to say: Allah's Messenger, ask your ladies to observe veil, but Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) did not do that. So there went out Sauda, daughter of Zarn'a, the wife of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him), during one of the nights when it was dark. She was a tall statured lady. 'Umar called her saying: Sauda, we recognise you. (He did this with the hope that the verses pertaining to veil would be revealed.) 'A'isha said: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, then revealed the verses pertaining to veil. (Sahih Muslim 26:5397)

The hadith is also in Sahih Bukhari (1 : 4 : 148 and 8 : 74 : 257)

Of course this brings up some obvious questions:

If Muhammad is just a messenger, relating Allah's word, why did Umar ask Muhammad for the hijab revelation? Why did he not just pray to Allah and ask directly?

No revelation was sent down until Umar spied on Muhammad's own wives. Why did Umar do this? How did he know (or at least suspect) it would be successful? Why does Allah care about toilet privacy so much that he revealed a verse pertaining to all Muslim women that will ever live?

There is also an instance where Hazrat Aisha questioned the Prophet. Look at the following Hadith

Narrated Aisha:

I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah's Apostle and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will;
and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).' (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires." (Sahih al-Bukhari Book 60 Hadith 311)

Kindly don't give me references from Sahih Bukhari as it has (alongwith Sihah Sitta) made a joke out of Rasulullah SAW's and Hazrat Aisha RA's relationship. The publicity of the affection in their relationship is not befitting for a Prophet.

 

[Heisenberg]

Kindly don't give me references from Sahih Bukhari as it has (alongwith Sihah Sitta) made a joke out of Rasulullah SAW's and Hazrat Aisha RA's relationship. The publicity of the affection in their relationship is not befitting for a Prophet.

Sahih Bukhari is the most popular source of Sunnah. You just want to ignore it?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Sahih Bukhari is the most popular source of Sunnah. You just want to ignore it?

Popular among Sunnis not Shias

 

[Shutdown Corner]

North and South aren't up and down. Read up on the poles and while you're at it read up on the prime meridian to understand what east and west are.

I'm not talking about magnetic north/south...but rather geographic north/south.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

Surgical techniques were developed in ancient India long before Islam even existed but no one attributes that to God.Maybe for Arabs something like that would come under miracle since they were primitive backward people but rest assured the other civilizations of the world were fairly advanced enough.
Re Quran not being challenged by anyone, well if you declare the dissidents as heretics and chop their heads off as punishment, I guess there wasn't much scope in writing a critique on it.Besides what is there to prove anyway, it's just a normal book with nothing extraordinary about it.What exactly do you want me to disapprove?
And please provide some concrete proof in the support of your 10% theory and not the half baked truths you picked up from some obscure internet websites.

Was the surgical or medical ideology in ancient India allopathic or ayurvedic?

This may be a bias of those who have studied allopathic medicine, but other sources of alternative medicine aren't considered scientifically valid because they don't adhere to the evidenced based method as rigorously as allopathic medicine does.

From my understanding, much of the surgical tools and techniques came from the middle east during the middle ages, and the works of Ibn Sina were taught in all the European medical curricula well into the modern era (1500s).

Of course human knowledge isn't a vacuum, therefore its pointless for any culture to claim ownership over a specific body of science or knowlege. Jews may have discovered relativistic physics and contributed to quantum mechanics, but that wouldn't be possible without advances made by Christians like Newton, Maxwell, Leibniz, Copernicus, Keppler, and Galileo among others. And they in turn wouldn't have discovered their stuff without basic algebra, geometry, and other advances made by Muslim Arab and Persian thinkers of the middle ages, who in turn relied on the Indians for the concept of zero.

 

[uberkoen]

I'm not talking about magnetic north/south...but rather geographic north/south.

There's hardly any difference between magnetic north and true north. I fail to understand what it is that you're trying to say.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

There's hardly any difference between magnetic north and true north. I fail to understand what it is that you're trying to say.

Hardly? I'm no geography expert, but I think its off by several hundred miles at least. Yeah just googled it...they are 500 miles apart from each other. Thats 800 km. Not close as that is greater than the distance from New Delhi to Islamabad.

 

[uberkoen]

Hardly? I'm no geography expert, but I think its off by several hundred miles at least. Yeah just googled it...they are 500 miles apart from each other. Thats 800 km. Not close as that is greater than the distance from New Delhi to Islamabad.

Again, what is the point you're trying to make?

 

[Slog]

Similarity, you can prove why Holy Quran is not the word of GOD. People who haven't seen GOD and ITS Prophet believe in the message of Holy Quran indicates it is based on faith.

But in your opinion, if Holy Quran is not word of GOD, then that is what you have to prove. Read Holy Quran and find some Verses that contradicts the ground reality as we know today. And prove them wrong.

That is how people were able to analyze the contradiction in Bible. If you analyze Holy Quran, then point out contradiction pattern. That is only way to judge the narrative since you are asking Muslims to prove who haven't seen GOD and ITS Prophet believe in the narrative based on faith can only prove by rational analyze as mentioned above.

But you can prove that Holy Quran is not word of GOD by analyzing Holy Quran to pin point the contradictions to ground reality. If we were to go by your school of thought, then Bible wouldn't be exposed with contradiction either. You can only expose the contradiction by analyzing the source. So go ahead and analyze the source to pin point the weakness of Holy Quran.

In fact, Holy Quran challenges you that.

“Were all mankind to come together and wish to produce the like of the Qur’an, they would never succeed, however much they aided each other”. (17:88)

“Or do they say that he has invented it? Say (to them), ‘Bring ten invented chapters like it, and call (for help) on whomever you can besides God, if you are truthful.” (Quran 11:

“And if you all are in doubt about what I have revealed to My servant, bring a single chapter like it, and call your witnesses besides God if you are truthful.” (Quran 2:23)

“Do people imagine that this Qur’an is not from Us, and that you, O Prophet are falsely attributing to us? Tell them that if they are speaking truly they should produce ten surahs resembling the Qur’an, and that they are free to call on the aid of anyone but God in so doing.” (11:13)

“Oh people, if you doubt the heavenly origin of this Book which We have sent down to Our servant, the Prophet, produce one surah like it.” (2:23)

“Or do they say: 'He forged it'? Say: 'Bring then a surah like unto it and call [to your aid] anyone you can”. (10:38)


If Holy Quran is not the word of GOD, then prove it. GOD challenges you to do that. The ball is in your court.

this is a tricky slope.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

Again, what is the point you're trying to make?

That the poles are not interchangeable, and that the whole point is moot to begin with.

Islam is above all a practical religion and especially so relative to other faiths. Examples abound from even a cursory study of the seerah or the Quran itself. The Quran contains dozens if not hundreds of references to "aql" (intelligence, critical thought) and "tafakkur" (reflection).

For example, we have the story of the bedouin who left his camel out to graze, relying upon God's Grace alone to which the Messenger (saw) replied, "Tether him and then rely on God."

The whole issue of the qiblah is further delcared to be moot, by the fundemental priniciple which is unique to Islam...which is that actions are judged solely by intention, rather than outcome. So it doesn't matter if one is unknowingly praying in the wrong direction or even praying in wrong manner.

Do you think Muslims are required to face the Qibla in Makkah because Islam believes the earth to be flat? Because that is the only way you could technically face the Qibla.

This is a prepestrous assertion and or question. This would imply that two people cannot face each other whilst sitting at a table. Is that what you are arguing? Is the earth less spherical only in places where people sit at tables? Is the table then necessarily not flat since its surface is parallel to the that of the earth's?

One can travel - in a straight line - between any two points on the earth's surface. I don't see why that is hard to envision in this day and age.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

[He] who made for you the earth a bed [spread out] and the sky a ceiling and sent down from the sky, rain and brought forth thereby fruits as provision for you. So do not attribute to Allah equals while you know [that there is nothing similar to Him]. (2:22)

He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. (20:53)

And [by] the earth and He who spread it (91:6)

And after that He spread the earth. (79:30)

Have We not made the earth a resting place? (78:6)

And it is He who spread the earth and placed therein firmly set mountains and rivers; and from all of the fruits He made therein two mates; He causes the night to cover the day. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought. (13:3)

And the earth - We have spread it and cast therein firmly set mountains and caused to grow therein [something] of every well-balanced thing. (15:19)

And Allah has made for you the earth an expanse (71:19)

And the earth - We spread it out and cast therein firmly set mountains and made grow therein [something] of every beautiful kind. (50:7)

Also, in the story of Dhul Qarnayn the Qur'an claims that he sun sets and rises in physical locations, and in particular that the sun sets in a muddy spring. Clarifying even further the scientific knowledge at that time.

Interestingly, none of those translations use the word "flat" anywhere, so its not warranted to say that the Quran says the earth is flat. Those verses contain the word "spherical" just as many times as "flat", in case you forgot how to count.

There are several Hadith which also mention the Earth being flat.

The hadith (as a whole) are of dubious authenticity. There are individual hadith that range in authenticity from "very likely true" to "absolutely absurd".

If,as people claim, that early Muslims including the Prophet himself knew that the earth was round and not flat why then did they use such confusing language? Why is there absolutely not a single mention of the Earth being round yet numerous examples of the earth being flat?

There is no reason to assume the Messenger (saw) knew the earth was round any more than there was to suggest he would know who will win teh 2017 Champions Trophy. This is is an absurd premise. If he knew the earth was round, what else did he know? Did he know the atomic mass of hydrogen?

 

[uberkoen]

Interestingly, none of those translations use the word "flat" anywhere, so its not warranted to say that the Quran says the earth is flat. Those verses contain the word "spherical" just as many times as "flat", in case you forgot how to count.



The hadith (as a whole) are of dubious authenticity. There are individual hadith that range in authenticity from "very likely true" to "absolutely absurd".



There is no reason to assume the Messenger (saw) knew the earth was round any more than there was to suggest he would know who will win teh 2017 Champions Trophy. This is is an absurd premise. If he knew the earth was round, what else did he know? Did he know the atomic mass of hydrogen?

الذي جعل لكم الارض مهدا وسلك لكم فيها سبلا وانزل من السماء ماء فاخرجنا به ازواجا من نبات شتى

He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky.” With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. (20:53)

And just to clarify that for you مَهْدًا = mahdan = (Noun) cradle or bed, (verb) flatten, smoothen, smooth, level, cement, grade, ram, plane, roll, flat, level off … is not applied here to a local area, but to the entire earth.

والله جعل لكم الارض بساطا

And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (71:19)

Look at the what the Earth is being compared to continuously in the book. A carpet (71:19, 2:22) and a bed (20:53, 43:10,78:6-7). These are flat surfaces. Flat objects.

Now, you take these verses which, I agree, do not specifically mention the Earth as being flat but compare the Earth to objects where are considered to be flat and in addition look at the following verses

حتى اذا بلغ مغرب الشمس وجدها تغرب في عين حمئة ووجد عندها قوما قلنا ياذا القرنين اما ان تعذب واما ان تتخذ فيهم حسنا

Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness. (18:86)

This can only happen on a flat Earth. The verses refer to he sun setting and rising in physical locations.

Now before you go on and start arguing about whether the verse is literal or figurative. I'd recommend you look at the other verses referring to the setting and rising of the sun and compare the words used in the verse mentioned above. For example,

And you (might) have seen the sun when it rose … and when it set … (18:17)

and celebrate the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting. (50:39)

Verses 18:86 and 18:90 could have simply followed this pattern if they were meant to express the time of sunset and sunrise, saying that he followed a way “until when the sun set” . However, these verses describe a physical location. Further evidence of this comes from the fact that verses 92-93 use the exact same wording as 85-86 and 89-90 to mean reaching a location

Then followed he (another) way, until when he reached… (18:92-93)

Moving on, the following verse describes heavens as being built on top of earth. The description is such that the heavens are built on top of a flat earth. The verse is as follows

الذي جعل لكم الارض فراشا والسماء بناء وانزل من السماء ماء فاخرج به من الثمرات رزقا لكم فلا تجعلوا لله اندادا وانتم تعلمون

Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth). (2:22)

The word translated as canopy is binaa or binaan ( بِنَاء ). This word means "building". The heavens are as a multi-story building over the earth. There are seven layers or stories to this building called the heavens. The heavens are built on a "flat" foundation called "the earth". The tafsir of 'ibn Kathir confirms this:

"These Ayat indicate that Allah started creation by creating earth, then He made heaven into seven heavens. This is how building usually starts, with the lower floors first and then the top floors"

A lot of people in the rebuttals above have mentioned that the verses talking about the earth being spread out or spread out like a carpet etc. refer to the earth from our perspective. This is not true either. Several of these verses are describing what Allah supposedly did when creating the entire Earth, not that the Earth seems flat to a human from a small local perspective on its spherical surface. Moreover, some of these verses also mention Allah placing mountains, or the sky as a ceiling or canopy, and therefore such verses must apply to the Earth's shape as a whole.

Moreover, this argument ignores the choice of word in the following verse (which is basically also counters your point of none of the verses containing the word "flat")

وَإِلَى ٱلْأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَتْ

And at the Earth, how it is spread out? (88:20)

سَطَّحَ = spread out or forth, expand

The word was used to describe making the flat top or roof of a house or chamber and making a top surface flat.

Words from the same root mean the flat top surface or roof of a house or chamber, a flat plane in geometry, a level place upon which dates can be spread, a rolling pin (which expands the dough), plane or flat.

If you'd rather do your own research I'd recommend having a look at the word سَطَّحَ or 'Shataha' in Lane's Lexicon here: http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000081.pdf

Now, I added the hadith in my arguments above to further strengthen my point. You can choose to ignore the Hadith but the evidence from the Qur'an itself is compelling enough.

 

[USHK]

Oh bhai. Go and read Tafsir of the Surah's I mentioned instead of saying "to me this is saying this..."

Please go and educate yourself.

You are telling me to read Tafsir when you are caught propagating few lines over the whole Surah and resorting to comparing analysis of few lines that pointed to certain civilization at that time to the whole other civilization.

I suggest you read Tafsir which you suggested since Tafsir does make up for the context and background for your confusion over few lines.

All the verses I mentioned talk about the SAME INCIDENT. Do you know what that means? I can't understand what you're arguing about here. How can you say they refer to different incidents when the Quran itself mentions that it is talking about the punishment received by the people of aad in all the cases stated above.

What is there not to understand? Each civilizations had certain punishment traits, and most of them had been consistent except the civilization of Sodom where its differed because of the topic as suited.

Nonetheless it is still punishment traits that has same sending after the similar protocol of the punishment unleashed after the civilizations ignored the warning and refused to straighten themselves. You are going to nick pick on the punishment traits given each civilizations had different, yet the most of similar punishment traits after the message had been delivered which had been consistent throughout the mankind.

You are confused because of overlooking the context and the background. Why don't you read them to get better clarity as to why certain punishment trait was chosen suited to each civilization?

 

[USHK]

There is no debate going on. If there was a debate going on you would have posted at least one half decent reference to your point of view. Please point me in the direction of any widely accepts English translators that have used the word egg shaped as translation of this verse.

I posted the most widely accepted English Translators of the Quran. Do you have any doubts on this? If not, then the fact remains that there is no debate at all or you're saying most of the world is reading the incorrect translations except for you?

You made up your mind just like you think you know everything about Islam despite your ignorance on Islam exposed overlooking the whole context and background.

Why do you think there is more than 10 sections of Islam so far? Because most of them differ on many topics and one of them is flat/ground. Clearly, you are not acquainted with the pressing issues that Islam deals all the time.

 

[USHK]

You post an entire Surah yet you don't address the point. Now that you've posted the entire Surah can you please state your point as well because even after reading it the verse stands out that abrogation is accepted by the Quran. (By the way almost all muslim scholars also accept abrogation int he Quran).

Nothing has changed by you posting the entire Surah. My point still stands. There is abrogation in the quran. What's your point?

I didn't post the entire Surah. Yet you presumed i posted the entire Surah which suggests you know nothing about Surah Al-Baqarah. I posted little glimpse which concentrates on important aspects of Islam that deals with the dilemma on pre-Islam and the acknowledgement of Prophet-hood provided the spirit of Monotheism is maintained as mentioned.

The whole Surah Al-Baqarah is much much much longer; just about 3 small books or one large book on that topic alone. Yet you posited your theory on few lines alone overlooking the entire Surah Al-Baqarah. I weep for the today and future generation that rather judge by the cover than by reading the entire book to posit the premise about the chapter.

 

[USHK]

You do realise that abrogation in the Qur'an is a widely accepted mainstream fact?

That depends on the context and the background. Care to surmise?

 

[Heisenberg]

That depends on the context and the background. Care to surmise?

Context is when people started noticing contradictions in the verses and targeted the prophet for it. God told them there is no contradiction, he just comes up with better verses. Which obviously makes no sense as God is supposed to be perfect.

 

[uberkoen]

That depends on the context and the background. Care to surmise?

It's like talking to a wall here. The Qur'an itself admits to abrogation. All major religious schools agree that there is abrogation in the Qur'an and this guy wants context.

 

[uberkoen]

What is there not to understand? Each civilizations had certain punishment traits, and most of them had been consistent except the civilization of Sodom where its differed because of the topic as suited.

Nonetheless it is still punishment traits that has same sending after the similar protocol of the punishment unleashed after the civilizations ignored the warning and refused to straighten themselves. You are going to nick pick on the punishment traits given each civilizations had different, yet the most of similar punishment traits after the message had been delivered which had been consistent throughout the mankind.

You are confused because of overlooking the context and the background. Why don't you read them to get better clarity as to why certain punishment trait was chosen suited to each civilization?

Okay. I suppose I'm going to have to spell it out for you here.

The question all of these verses are answering is: How long did it take to destroy Aad tribe? According to verse 54:19 it took one day, according to 41:16 it took several days and according to 69:7 it took seven days. If there is indeed no contradiction in the Qur'an then please tell me how many days it took to destroy the Aad tribe? Which of the verses is correct?

Now that you have started talking about this which is completely out of context of the topic of discussion. I shall, however, still go on a bit more on this topic. You wanted to know about contradiction or errors in the Qur'an. Let me give you a brief summary

He is created from a drop emitted- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs (86:6-7)[/B]

The Qur'an states, incorrectly, that semen originates from a spot between the backbone and ribs. Today we know sperm comes from the testicles and semen from various glands behind and below the bladder, which is not between the spine and ribs.

Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood. (96:2)

The Qur'an and Hadith depict that humans are formed from a clot of blood. There was never a stage in embryonic development where humans are formed into a clot of blood. This description is likely influenced by an unscientific and primitive understanding of human reproduction based on observations from an early-term miscarriage and a woman's menstrual cycle.

Was he not a drop of fluid which gushed forth? Then he became a clot; then (Allah) shaped and fashioned And made of him a pair, the male and female. (75:37-39)

The Qur'an says that an embryo is transformed from a sperm to a clot, then it is shaped, and then the male or female sex is determined. Modern genetics has shown that the sex of a human is decided at the moment of conception.

And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction. (51:49)

Glory to Allah, Who created in pairs all things that the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge. (36:36)

Not every creature procreates or reproduces through male and female sexual relationship. The whiptail lizard in the U.S. Southwest, Mexico, and South America, is an all-females species which reproduces by parthenogenesis. Viruses reproduce using a host's DNA and are neither female nor male. Bacteria reproduce by cell division. Fungus can reproduce either sexually or asexually. Many species of plants also reproduce either asexually or through pollination.

And He has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves (16:15)

Modern geology has discovered that large plates in the crust of the earth are responsible for the formation of mountains. Called Plate tectonic these massive plates meet and the pressure between them pushes up the crust forming mountains but also causing earthquakes and faults. the Qur'an propagates the idea that mountains are crucial in stabilizing the earth when, in fact, the earth would be much more stable and have less earthquakes if mountains did not exist.

He created you from one being, then from that (being) He made its mate; and He hath provided for you of cattle eight kinds. He created you in the wombs of your mothers, creation after creation, in a threefold gloom. Such is Allah, your Lord. His is the Sovereignty. There is no Allah save Him. How then are ye turned away (39:6)

And of the cattle (He produceth) some for burdens, some for food. Eat of that which Allah hath bestowed upon you, and follow not the footsteps of the devil, for lo! he is an open foe to you. Eight pairs: Of the sheep twain, and of the goats twain. Say: Hath He forbidden the two males or the two females, or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Expound to me (the case) with knowledge, if ye are truthful. And of the camels twain and of the oxen twain. Say: Hath He forbidden the two males or the two females, or that which the wombs of the two females contain; or were ye by to witness when Allah commanded you (all) this? Then who doth greater wrong than he who deviseth a lie concerning Allah, that he may lead mankind astray without knowledge. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (6:142-144)

There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end. (6:38)

The Qur'an is emphatic that all animals live in communities. Some animals such as the jaguar or leopard are well known for being solitary creatures, rarely meeting in pairs and only to mate. They do not live in communities and routinely fight each other over territory.

There are also species even whose young are not raised as a family, which lay eggs and abandon them before hatching. Sea Turtles bury their eggs on a beach and leave them. When an egg hatches the baby turtle must dig to the surface and make a sprint to the sea or perish. Some reptiles behave similarly. An even better example is the Carolina anole, which is a lizard species. They lay just a single egg every 2 weeks, around 10 in total, each taking 5 to 7 weeks to hatch. Anole hatchlings must fend for themselves and are by nature solitary creatures from birth.

While the Qur'an states that there are eight kinds of cattle for use by humans, In fact there are more than a dozen kinds of cattle. The word "cattle" in 39:6 is al-ana'ami, meaning pasturing (i.e. grazing) animals. The word azwajin ("kinds" in the translation of 39:6 below) generally means mate or member of a pair. Qur'an 6:143-144 clarifies that these refer to male and female pairs of sheep, goats, oxes and camels, so in fact the author of the Qur'an is aware only of four kinds of cattle useful for humans. This neglects other types of cattle from the regions outside of Arabia such as reindeer, which are important to people in northern latitudes.

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden (5:116)

Christians have never worshipped Mary as part of the Trinity. The author of the Qur'an seems to be mistaken in his understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity and the theology of Christians.

“( Allah) said; ‘We have tested thy people in thy absence: the Samiri has led them astray’.” (20:85)

“( Moses) said, ‘What then is thy case, O Samiri?’” (20:95)

The Qu'ran claims that Moses dealt with a Samaritan during his time, however they did not exist until over half a millennium after this even supposedly occurred. The term Samari itself comes from the city of Samaria, an archaeologically confirmed city which was built by King Omri in around 870BC, nearly 700 years after Moses is supposed to have existed.

Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.

In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing. (4:11-12)

Wife: 1/8 = 3/24,
Daughters: 2/3 = 16/24,
Father: 1/6 = 4/24,
Mother: 1/6 = 4/24,
Total = 27/24=1.125
The total does not equal to 1.



Let me know if this isn't sufficient for you. I can find a few more. In fact, a lot more.

 

[pkcricketfan]

How big is universe? Is it infinite? Is it even technically possible? Is it finite? If yes then what's next, next and next? I think these are the kind of questions which cannot be explained without involving a supernatural being. Obviously not related to topic but this is the thing which comes in my mind whenever I see people trying to prove that there is no supernatural being.

 

[Heisenberg]

How big is universe? Is it infinite? Is it even technically possible? Is it finite? If yes then what's next, next and next? I think these are the kind of questions which cannot be explained without involving a supernatural being. Obviously not related to topic but this is the thing which comes in my mind whenever I see people trying to prove that there is no supernatural being.

Is it though? A supernatural being who created all of that cares about how low you wear your shalwar and if you forget to say Alhamdulillah after sneezing? Also likes to play hide and seek and test irrelevant creations with unfair tests?

 

[Shutdown Corner]

الذي جعل لكم الارض مهدا وسلك لكم فيها سبلا وانزل من السماء ماء فاخرجنا به ازواجا من نبات شتى

He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky.” With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others. (20:53)

And just to clarify that for you مَهْدًا = mahdan = (Noun) cradle or bed, (verb) flatten, smoothen, smooth, level, cement, grade, ram, plane, roll, flat, level off … is not applied here to a local area, but to the entire earth.

والله جعل لكم الارض بساطا

And Allah has made the earth for you as a carpet (71:19)

Look at the what the Earth is being compared to continuously in the book. A carpet (71:19, 2:22) and a bed (20:53, 43:10,78:6-7). These are flat surfaces. Flat objects.

Well, I have one interesting thought. A carpet, or a bed sheet spread out on the ground represents a planar surface. You are suggesting the bed or a carpet is "flat", which is sensible enough. But, as a planar surface, would you say the sheet laid out on the ground is paralell to the ground on which it rests? You would wouldn't you? So now if the sheet is flat, and sheet is a flat planar surface (or a carpet or a bed) parallel to the ground on which it rests...doesn't this make that portion of the earth on which the sheet is resting equally "flat"? Quite a paradox I think...

Now, you take these verses which, I agree, do not specifically mention the Earth as being flat but compare the Earth to objects where are considered to be flat and in addition look at the following verses

And this is precisely the point. The earth as is apparent from our vantage point appears flat, as does a carpet or a sheet or a bed. Now, if you had lets say a bed that was 1000 km x 1000 km in dimesion instead of one that is 1.5 meters x 1.5 metres...would that bed be "flat"?

Of course not?

Thus beds and carpets seem flat to us from where we see them in our everyday lives. If you spread a big enough carpet or big enough bed, it would be just as spherical as the Earth. Or just as flat.

The Quran neither explicitly states that these beds are flat, or round.

حتى اذا بلغ مغرب الشمس وجدها تغرب في عين حمئة ووجد عندها قوما قلنا ياذا القرنين اما ان تعذب واما ان تتخذ فيهم حسنا

Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness. (18:86)

This can only happen on a flat Earth. The verses refer to he sun setting and rising in physical locations.

This can only happen on a flat Earth? Are you sure about that, my friend?

Just last week I went to this place in New York City called the East River around about 9 pm. Its a very dirty river...we can even call it muddy. At any rate, as you look out towards Manhattan and New Jersey, you can see the Sun dip into the skyscrapers. Well at least it appears as that way from Queens. Looks like the Sun just falls right behind the Empire State Building. I kid you not.

My guess is depending on where you see the sunset from you can see it dip into a mudding spring or 102 story Art Deco skyscraper.

Now before you go on and start arguing about whether the verse is literal or figurative. I'd recommend you look at the other verses referring to the setting and rising of the sun and compare the words used in the verse mentioned above. For example,

And you (might) have seen the sun when it rose … and when it set … (18:17)

and celebrate the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun and before (its) setting. (50:39)

Verses 18:86 and 18:90 could have simply followed this pattern if they were meant to express the time of sunset and sunrise, saying that he followed a way “until when the sun set” . However, these verses describe a physical location. Further evidence of this comes from the fact that verses 92-93 use the exact same wording as 85-86 and 89-90 to mean reaching a location

The word used for the "location" of the setting sun is "maghrib" (مَغْرِبَ ) which merely means "west" or "western", at least in contemporary Arabic. Maghrib is the 4th prayer in the day which is why you may recall hearing Muslims say things like "its almost maghrib" time. Bengalis will say "maghrib er okto hoise" (its Maghrib time now).

The word maghrib is used by Muslims as a time period, at best, it can mean relative directionality ie Westerly, as in Morocco being known in arabic as al-Maghrib.

[qoute]Moving on, the following verse describes heavens as being built on top of earth. The description is such that the heavens are built on top of a flat earth. The verse is as follows

الذي جعل لكم الارض فراشا والسماء بناء وانزل من السماء ماء فاخرج به من الثمرات رزقا لكم فلا تجعلوا لله اندادا وانتم تعلمون

Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth). (2:22)
[/quote]

Well the verse refers to السَّمَاء as "heavens" or "sky" and then refers to "rain" drops which do fall "down" relative to the viewpoint of a person standing on earth. So whether you are standing on North pole (magnetic or geographic) or Antarctica, the sky would appear to be above your head. If you disagree you would have to also then agree that its absurd to say something like "Mohammad Irfan is taller than Mohammad Amir" because since height is based on our relative concepts of "up" and "down" it may be that Irfan is shorter than Amir. But that sort of illustrates how asanine this debate actually is at its core.

The word translated as canopy is binaa or binaan ( بِنَاء ). This word means "building". The heavens are as a multi-story building over the earth. There are seven layers or stories to this building called the heavens. The heavens are built on a "flat" foundation called "the earth". The tafsir of 'ibn Kathir confirms this:

"These Ayat indicate that Allah started creation by creating earth, then He made heaven into seven heavens. This is how building usually starts, with the lower floors first and then the top floors"

Ibn Kathir, as knowlegable as he was, isn't the "author" of the Quran nor was he a scientist (to my knowledge). Him analogizing the Earth to a building is just that - an analogy. An analogy, that in this particular instance isn't very accurate from a scientific point of view.

A lot of people in the rebuttals above have mentioned that the verses talking about the earth being spread out or spread out like a carpet etc. refer to the earth from our perspective. This is not true either. Several of these verses are describing what Allah supposedly did when creating the entire Earth, not that the Earth seems flat to a human from a small local perspective on its spherical surface. Moreover, some of these verses also mention Allah placing mountains, or the sky as a ceiling or canopy, and therefore such verses must apply to the Earth's shape as a whole.

Well that is assuming that God's physical location is confined to his Kursi in the Heavens and that is his in immobile, static diety. I don't believe there is any reason from the Quran to take such a sedentary view. Especially since God is widely regarded by Muslims to come down from the Heavens during the last third of each night. Maybe those verses were penned by God at that particular time when he was "on earth"...you never know.

Moreover, this argument ignores the choice of word in the following verse (which is basically also counters your point of none of the verses containing the word "flat")

وَإِلَى ٱلْأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَتْ

And at the Earth, how it is spread out? (88:20)

سَطَّحَ = spread out or forth, expand

The word was used to describe making the flat top or roof of a house or chamber and making a top surface flat.

Words from the same root mean the flat top surface or roof of a house or chamber, a flat plane in geometry, a level place upon which dates can be spread, a rolling pin (which expands the dough), plane or flat.

If you'd rather do your own research I'd recommend having a look at the word سَطَّحَ or 'Shataha' in Lane's Lexicon here: http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000081.pdf

Now, I added the hadith in my arguments above to further strengthen my point. You can choose to ignore the Hadith but the evidence from the Qur'an itself is compelling enough.

[/QUOTE]

Well once again, if a carpet is spread out "flat", we see it apparently as flat. But the surface of the earth, every square inch of which is in contact with the carpet is something that is NOT flat. Is that a paradox? Of course not. And as I already mentioned, if the carpet is of sufficient size (ie nearly the area of the Earth's surface), it would obviously not be "flat" although you could still "spread" it out.

Now if a carpet laid on the Earth's round surface is necessarily also equally round (in in units of degrees, not apparent to the naked eye), then it necessarily holds by the laws of geometry that the flat roof of a house which is parallell to the ground (surface of the Earth) is also whatever shape the surface of the Earth is. If the earth is flat, the roof is flat, if the earth is curved n degrees...then the roof is also curved n degrees.

______________________


I had a discussion with a guy once a long while ago who attempted to get me to admit that Muhammad (saw) split the moon as alleged by many hadith and as apparently confirmed by the Quran in the following verse (54:1):

اقْتَرَبَتِ السَّاعَةُ وَانشَقَّ الْقَمَرُ

He insisted that because the Quran used the past tense, this could not be a reference to the Day of Judgement despite the use of the word as-sa'atu السَّاعَةُ "The Final Hour".

He did raise an interesting point about an apparent contradiction in the Quran where by the Day of Judgement is referred to in the past tense!

Of course, the subtleties of poetic Arabic indicates that Quran often uses the past tense to refer to the future as a literary method of emphasizing the certainty of that future event.

At least the believer would see it that way, and the skeptic would see it as subject-verb incongruence.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

Reposting this part from the above post for clarity:

Moving on, the following verse describes heavens as being built on top of earth. The description is such that the heavens are built on top of a flat earth. The verse is as follows

الذي جعل لكم الارض فراشا والسماء بناء وانزل من السماء ماء فاخرج به من الثمرات رزقا لكم فلا تجعلوا لله اندادا وانتم تعلمون

Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth). (2:22)

Well the verse refers to السَّمَاء as "heavens" or "sky" and then refers to "rain" drops which do fall "down" relative to the viewpoint of a person standing on earth. So whether you are standing on North pole (magnetic or geographic) or Antarctica, the sky would appear to be above your head. If you disagree you would have to also then agree that its absurd to say something like "Mohammad Irfan is taller than Mohammad Amir" because since height is based on our relative concepts of "up" and "down" it may be that Irfan is shorter than Amir. But that sort of illustrates how asanine this debate actually is at its core. - See more at: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...rth-and-the-Qur-an/page2#sthash.XghBusOC.dpuf
Read more at http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...arth-and-the-Qur-an/page2#QY9ahoEbApiI8E2p.99

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION]

Brother, i did your follow your posts regarding Punishments to Non Believers in Next Life.


What do you think about these verses ?


“My mercy encompasses all things” (7:157).


The verse, whoso does good an atom’s weight will see it (99:08)



Are you telling me that Kailash Satyarthi is doomed to Hell forever ? Than where are Allah's promises ?

 

[USHK]

Context is when people started noticing contradictions in the verses and targeted the prophet for it. God told them there is no contradiction, he just comes up with better verses. Which obviously makes no sense as God is supposed to be perfect.

I didn't ask for definition. I asked for the context and background pertaining to the Surahs in Holy Quran you find inconsistency. I haven't found any inconsistency so far.

But i like you to present some evidence that backs your case. And this time the complete narrative should be posted instead of few liners which is the opposite of the context and the background. So i am gonna ignore your other lengthy post that boils down to few liners of Holy Quran.

 

[USHK]

It's like talking to a wall here. The Qur'an itself admits to abrogation. All major religious schools agree that there is abrogation in the Qur'an and this guy wants context.

Okay. You are right. You are mightiest of all. You sir know what you are saying. You can not be wrong here. Would that satisfy your insecurity?

People making random statement insinuating without backing their case and ask us to accept their case without critical analysis. That is what is like talking to the wall, and majority of PakPassion feel that way about you since you have been picking few lines to make your case and compare one topic to another ignoring the context and the background.

I don't care about your stance. Back it up with the evidence. I believe in the evidence, not so called random statement from pper whose agenda has been made clear here.

Context and background is everything. Without them, any line can be manipulative and most terrorist outfits use that and you are doing the same to justify in debate.

Holy Quran is serious scripture that covered the period of 20 years and more. Even the companion of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) took more than 20 years to master Holy Quran whereas you made your entire case on few liners only while ignoring everything including the context and the background which helps the case taking them into the account.

 

[USHK]

Okay. I suppose I'm going to have to spell it out for you here.

The question all of these verses are answering is: How long did it take to destroy Aad tribe? According to verse 54:19 it took one day, according to 41:16 it took several days and according to 69:7 it took seven days. If there is indeed no contradiction in the Qur'an then please tell me how many days it took to destroy the Aad tribe? Which of the verses is correct?

I thought i made my points on this topic earlier. Did you not read my posts at all?

You are comparing the punishment traits of one civilization to another civilization. Each civilization had its own punishment traits while most of punishment traits had been consistent barring certain civilization like Sodom. How is that contradiction?

The Qur'an states, incorrectly, that semen originates from a spot between the backbone and ribs. Today we know sperm comes from the testicles and semen from various glands behind and below the bladder, which is not between the spine and ribs.

That doesn't sound like contradiction since you are comparing one source to another meaning Holy Quran to the modern medicine.

Your case was about inconsistency within Holy Quran. Need i to remind you of that?

Contradiction is only the case if Holy Quran is contradicting itself within its own source. There are lots of thing that modern science don't agree with Islam and vice versa. That doesn't make it contradiction. It is called difference in opinion.

Your entire case depend on the comparison analysis between Holy Quran and the world's historical narrative. Holy Quran recorded the history of miracles from Adam to Muhammad (PBUTA). If Holy Quran says, Prophet Moses (PBUH) saw Samaritan, then he (PBUH) did. No question asked. Just like Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) boarded on Al-Baraq, that travels over the speed, to Jerusalem and the space and spend the whole day. Then came back to Earth back to the same time and position as if a second has barely passed but the modern world disagrees saying it is impossible especially to travel over the speed of light requires advanced technology which NASA is still few eons away from perfecting that technology.

There is lot that world disagrees with Holy Quran but the historical narratives of Islam including the miracles and impossible scenarios that was made possible are fact, no question asked. Feel free to disagree with Holy Quran but you cannot call it inconsistency because there isn't. It is matter of opinion which you are entitled to disagree using your modern sources as testament to make your case, and likewise, i believe fully in Holy Quran since i believe it is word of GOD that suggests if certain things happened, then it did. If the medical process of DNA, the chromosomes and among many others are mentioned in Holy Quran are not aligned with the modern narrative, then it is understandable. Again, it is Holy Quran's words versus the modern science.


In your post i have noticed that you call comparison analysis as contradiction. Then, you make your entire case based on few liners overlooking the context and the background. Indeed, reading is not your best friend. No offense.

I suggest you read Holy Quran with open minded and calmly instead of reading like you wanna expose which in result you might end up rushing to form uninformed conclusion. Trust me because it is not way to gain knowledge. And it is coming from former Atheist.

 

[Black Zero]

I suggest you read Holy Quran with open minded and calmly instead of reading like you wanna expose which in result you might end up rushing to form uninformed conclusion. Trust me because it is not way to gain knowledge. And it is coming from former Atheist.

Best advice so you may also follow it.

When I read Quran with close mind, i loved Islam, and when I started reading it with open mind, my love was gone.

 

[USHK]

Best advice so you may also follow it.

When I read Quran with close mind, i loved Islam, and when I started reading it with open mind, my love was gone.

Mine is different case. It is with close mind that pushed me away from Islam. Whereas my open-minded for Islam took me back. Because i started to see Islam from my perspective alone. And i believe my version alone which strengthened my faith furthermore.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

اقْتَرَبَتِ السَّاعَةُ وَانشَقَّ الْقَمَرُ

He insisted that because the Quran used the past tense, this could not be a reference to the Day of Judgement despite the use of the word as-sa'atu السَّاعَةُ "The Final Hour".

He did raise an interesting point about an apparent contradiction in the Quran where by the Day of Judgement is referred to in the past tense!

I will make a seperate thread on this Miracle.


This was a Miracle which was seen in some parts of the Earth. History tells us this. Apparently it was exactly what Eyes saw but physically it did not happen. If it did occur physically than it would have caused severe destruction.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

I will make a seperate thread on this Miracle.


This was a Miracle which was seen in some parts of the Earth. History tells us this. Apparently it was exactly what Eyes saw but physically it did not happen. If it did occur physically than it would have caused severe destruction.

That is what the radical hindutva guy was telling me.

Even assuming such a "miracle" occurred - I am skeptical - verse 54:1 is not in any way referencing such an event because "as-s'aatu" is clearly referring to the Day of Judgement as the same word is used DOZENS of times in the Quran to refer to the DOJ in the future tense.

Maybe that miracle occurred (I highly doubt it). I would like to see the historical record of such an event being reported by non-Muslims either in Arabia or elsewhere. Even then, who is to say it isn't fabricated. But what does it matter anyways? I go by the Quran and my faith in it should not be determined by whether this "miracle" occurred or didn't occur.

If the moon had't split, is Muhammad somehow less of a Messenger (saw)? Is Allah less worthy of being worshipped?

 

[uberkoen]

Reposting this part from the above post for clarity:



Well the verse refers to السَّمَاء as "heavens" or "sky" and then refers to "rain" drops which do fall "down" relative to the viewpoint of a person standing on earth. So whether you are standing on North pole (magnetic or geographic) or Antarctica, the sky would appear to be above your head. If you disagree you would have to also then agree that its absurd to say something like "Mohammad Irfan is taller than Mohammad Amir" because since height is based on our relative concepts of "up" and "down" it may be that Irfan is shorter than Amir. But that sort of illustrates how asanine this debate actually is at its core. - See more at: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...rth-and-the-Qur-an/page2#sthash.XghBusOC.dpuf
Read more at http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...arth-and-the-Qur-an/page2#QY9ahoEbApiI8E2p.99

I don't think you're reading my posts properly because I have already countered this point earlier. Here it is again:

A lot of people in the rebuttals above have mentioned that the verses talking about the earth being spread out or spread out like a carpet etc. refer to the earth from our perspective. This is not true either. Several of these verses are describing what Allah supposedly did when creating the entire Earth, not that the Earth seems flat to a human from a small local perspective on its spherical surface. Moreover, some of these verses also mention Allah placing mountains, or the sky as a ceiling or canopy, and therefore such verses must apply to the Earth's shape as a whole.

Moreover, this argument ignores the choice of word in the following verse (which is basically also counters your point of none of the verses containing the word "flat")

وَإِلَى ٱلْأَرْضِ كَيْفَ سُطِحَتْ

And at the Earth, how it is spread out? (88:20)

سَطَّحَ = spread out or forth, expand

The word was used to describe making the flat top or roof of a house or chamber and making a top surface flat.

Words from the same root mean the flat top surface or roof of a house or chamber, a flat plane in geometry, a level place upon which dates can be spread, a rolling pin (which expands the dough), plane or flat.

If you'd rather do your own research I'd recommend having a look at the word سَطَّحَ or 'Shataha' in Lane's Lexicon here: http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexico...4/00000081.pdf - See more at: http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...th-and-the-Qur-an/page2&p=9263515#post9263515

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

That is what the radical hindutva guy was telling me.

Even assuming such a "miracle" occurred - I am skeptical - verse 54:1 is not in any way referencing such an event because "as-s'aatu" is clearly referring to the Day of Judgement as the same word is used DOZENS of times in the Quran to refer to the DOJ in the future tense.

Maybe that miracle occurred (I highly doubt it). I would like to see the historical record of such an event being reported by non-Muslims either in Arabia or elsewhere. Even then, who is to say it isn't fabricated. But what does it matter anyways? I go by the Quran and my faith in it should not be determined by whether this "miracle" occurred or didn't occur.

If the moon had't split, is Muhammad somehow less of a Messenger (saw)? Is Allah less worthy of being worshipped?

Well if the Moon Splits into two than with this Day of Judgement might appear. But even if you translate the Word Assaatuu as " Qayamatt " or Day of Judgement than read carefully what Quran says :

Holy Quran says than that, It [appeared] as if Day of Judgement is near " The hour has drawn nigh "


Even after massive Earthquakes we hear from victims that they thought " Day of Judgement " has appeared.


Now even if you fit word Day of Judgement than if the Earth is say hundreds of thousand years old than from that point if Day of Judgement was 3000 years away than you can call such a time " near " in the wider context.


Such an expression is also used in 21:01 of the Holy Quran.


As far as I understand Iqtaraba means approached and as-s'aatu means the time, the moment.


The thing is that it isn't as if Mohammad Pbuh lifted his finger and than Moon split rather it was so that Allah revealed him this verse and than He lifted his finger and asked people around him to look at the moon. First the event was caused by Allah along with verse and than the finger was lifted pointing towards it.


No, Mohammad Rasool Allah Pbuh did bigger miracles than this. He revolutionised the World. To spurr that spirit in Sahaba RA was a bigger revolution and a miracle in that Land. Many bad habbits of ages were shunned within minutes of He Pbuh's one divine order.

Even if Allah did not mend/suspend/alter his self made system it doesn't make Him less worthy of Worship. His Creations, His Blessings are unparallel un-matched.

 

[uberkoen]

Okay. You are right. You are mightiest of all. You sir know what you are saying. You can not be wrong here. Would that satisfy your insecurity?

People making random statement insinuating without backing their case and ask us to accept their case without critical analysis. That is what is like talking to the wall, and majority of PakPassion feel that way about you since you have been picking few lines to make your case and compare one topic to another ignoring the context and the background.

I don't care about your stance. Back it up with the evidence. I believe in the evidence, not so called random statement from pper whose agenda has been made clear here.

Context and background is everything. Without them, any line can be manipulative and most terrorist outfits use that and you are doing the same to justify in debate.

Holy Quran is serious scripture that covered the period of 20 years and more. Even the companion of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) took more than 20 years to master Holy Quran whereas you made your entire case on few liners only while ignoring everything including the context and the background which helps the case taking them into the account.

I did back it up with evidence of you'd care to read. I posted verses from the Qur'an itself which confirm abrogation. Here it is again:

“Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things? Know you not that it is Allah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah you have neither any Walee (protector or guardian) nor any helper.” (2:106-107)

And when We substitute a Verse (in) place (of) a Verse, and Allah - (is) most knowing of what He sends down they say, "Only you (are) an inventor." Nay, most of them (do) not know. (16:101)

The only mainstream muslim sect that rejects abrogation in the Qur'an are the Ahmadiyah. Majority of the Muslim scholars agree about the principle of abrogation in the Qur'an.

Fact of the matter is the Propher changed his rules according to the circumstances. Within the hadith, there are a number of examples. Muhammad, for example, revealed verse 2:187 regulating sex during Ramadan after ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab questioned him. Likewise, Muhammad abrogated another verse encouraging all believers to fight militarily for God (4:95) after he was challenged by a blind man who could not.

For context, here is a table of Abrogated verses

 

[uberkoen]

I thought i made my points on this topic earlier. Did you not read my posts at all?

You are comparing the punishment traits of one civilization to another civilization. Each civilization had its own punishment traits while most of punishment traits had been consistent barring certain civilization like Sodom. How is that contradiction?

Again, The verses I refer to above all talk about the same civizliation. The verses all refer to the Aad tribe yet the length of the punishment in all three verses is different.

 

[uberkoen]

That doesn't sound like contradiction since you are comparing one source to another meaning Holy Quran to the modern medicine.

Your case was about inconsistency within Holy Quran. Need i to remind you of that?

Contradiction is only the case if Holy Quran is contradicting itself within its own source. There are lots of thing that modern science don't agree with Islam and vice versa. That doesn't make it contradiction. It is called difference in opinion.

Your entire case depend on the comparison analysis between Holy Quran and the world's historical narrative. Holy Quran recorded the history of miracles from Adam to Muhammad (PBUTA). If Holy Quran says, Prophet Moses (PBUH) saw Samaritan, then he (PBUH) did. No question asked. Just like Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) boarded on Al-Baraq, that travels over the speed, to Jerusalem and the space and spend the whole day. Then came back to Earth back to the same time and position as if a second has barely passed but the modern world disagrees saying it is impossible especially to travel over the speed of light requires advanced technology which NASA is still few eons away from perfecting that technology.

There is lot that world disagrees with Holy Quran but the historical narratives of Islam including the miracles and impossible scenarios that was made possible are fact, no question asked. Feel free to disagree with Holy Quran but you cannot call it inconsistency because there isn't. It is matter of opinion which you are entitled to disagree using your modern sources as testament to make your case, and likewise, i believe fully in Holy Quran since i believe it is word of GOD that suggests if certain things happened, then it did. If the medical process of DNA, the chromosomes and among many others are mentioned in Holy Quran are not aligned with the modern narrative, then it is understandable. Again, it is Holy Quran's words versus the modern science.


In your post i have noticed that you call comparison analysis as contradiction. Then, you make your entire case based on few liners overlooking the context and the background. Indeed, reading is not your best friend. No offense.

I suggest you read Holy Quran with open minded and calmly instead of reading like you wanna expose which in result you might end up rushing to form uninformed conclusion. Trust me because it is not way to gain knowledge. And it is coming from former Atheist.

Funny how you take one example and write an entire post on it whereas in my original post there were several other examples as well. Including the fact that Qur'an gets the concept of trilogy wrong, the one about Moses meeting the Samaritan and the mathematics of inheritance. You also ignored the verses about how the Qur'an states that everything is created in pairs when in fact it is not.

But since those are not sufficient for you. Here are more:

How many angels helped Muhammad at Badr?


Remember thou saidst to the Faithful: "Is it not enough for you that Allah should help you with three thousand angels (Specially) sent down? (3:124)


Remember ye implored the assistance of your Lord, and He answered you: "I will assist you with a thousand of the angels, ranks on ranks." (8:9)

Heaven and Earth came apart or together?

Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience. (41:11)

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? (21:30)

How long did it take Allah to create heaven and earth?

Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority), regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not receive admonition? (10:3)

Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds. He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days, alike for (all) who ask;

Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and We decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower. (41:9-12)

What happens to mountains on Qiyamah?

And the mountains will be like wool (70:9)

And the mountains shall vanish, as if they were a mirage. (78:20)

Is intercession possible?

Then guard yourselves against a-Day when one soul shall not avail another, nor shall compensation be accepted from her nor shall intercession profit her nor shall anyone be helped (from outside). (2:123)

On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by (Allah) Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him. (20:109)

Are all human races considered equal?

Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people, (3:33)

Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all other (for My Message). (2:47)

O people, we created you from the same male and female, and rendered you distinct peoples and tribes, that you may recognize one another. The best among you in the sight of GOD is the most righteous. GOD is Omniscient, Cognizant. (49:13)

Strength of believers

One Muslim is more powerful than 10 non-Muslims
If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve (8:65)

One Muslim can overcome two non-Muslims
So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand (steadfast) they shall overcome two thousand by permission of Allah. (8:66)

Honestly, I could go on all day with this.

 

[uberkoen]

[MENTION=107753]uberkoen[/MENTION]

Brother, i did your follow your posts regarding Punishments to Non Believers in Next Life.


What do you think about these verses ?


“My mercy encompasses all things” (7:157).


The verse, whoso does good an atom’s weight will see it (99:08)



Are you telling me that Kailash Satyarthi is doomed to Hell forever ? Than where are Allah's promises ?

Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right) (4:116)

You see the contradiction that I am talking about? Does Allah forgive everything or does he not? Is it all up to him to decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell? Then what is the point of worship if in the end the decision will be based on a whim?

Again, Allah says one thing in the Qur'an

Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed. (4:48)

Yet, he did something completely different in the case of Moses' companions

The people of the Book ask thee to cause a book to descend to them from heaven: Indeed they asked Moses for an even greater (miracle), for they said: "Show us Allah in public," but they were dazed for their presumption, with thunder and lightning. Yet they worshipped the calf even after clear signs had come to them; even so we forgave them; and gave Moses manifest proofs of authority (4:153)

Then you quote 99:08 yet, the following verse completely contradicts what you quoted

It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell. (9:17)

Here is another contradiction:

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). (3:85)

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I did back it up with evidence of you'd care to read. I posted verses from the Qur'an itself which confirm abrogation. Here it is again:

“Whatever a Verse (revelation) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things? Know you not that it is Allah to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah you have neither any Walee (protector or guardian) nor any helper.” (2:106-107)

And when We substitute a Verse (in) place (of) a Verse, and Allah - (is) most knowing of what He sends down they say, "Only you (are) an inventor." Nay, most of them (do) not know. (16:101)

The only mainstream muslim sect that rejects abrogation in the Qur'an are the Ahmadiyah. Majority of the Muslim scholars agree about the principle of abrogation in the Qur'an.

Fact of the matter is the Propher changed his rules according to the circumstances. Within the hadith, there are a number of examples. Muhammad, for example, revealed verse 2:187 regulating sex during Ramadan after ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab questioned him. Likewise, Muhammad abrogated another verse encouraging all believers to fight militarily for God (4:95) after he was challenged by a blind man who could not.

For context, here is a table of Abrogated verses

View attachment 74367

Brother You are pulling up " Aetrazaat " " Questions " " Criticism " " Objections on Holy Quran left, right in this thread


You are bringing Criticisms from all sorts of Websites.


A person like me doesn't adress the websites but adrrsses the blogger, the writer the poster infront of me and that is YOU. None other.


Firstly It is better to make a seperate thread or threads rather than discussing everything in Qibla direction and Earth shape thread


Now my concern is you and you only as Blogger. Not the Websites. So tell me where do you stand ?


If you claim that Naoozbillah there is Abbrogation in the Holy Quran than you will have to admit that Naoozbillah Quran is not a perfect Divine book. Because You cannot play on both sides of the wicket.

If Naoozbillah one Aaya says a thing on a particular subject as a direction and another Aaya on the same verse nullifies that or contradicts the other verse than this Book is Naoozbillah not perfect.


If God wasn't unsure about what direction or message He had to reveal to Prophet Mohammed Pbuh and He frewuently changed HIS mind Naoozbillah min Zaalik than GOD isn't perfect either. If God isn't perfect than I will not believe in an imperfect God. Etc etc.


Now Speak Up ? Where do you stand ? If you will say there is abrogation of Quranic verses than Quranic verses have conflict and Quran isn't uniform, consistent and perfect. Is this your stance ?


Otherwise with abrogations you cannot call it a perfect Book.


Do you believe in these verses to be True ? Right & Perfect ? If Yes than there is No abbrogation if No than there Is.


Will they not, then, meditate upon the Quran? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much disagreement.

- Quran 4:83


Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian.


- Quran 15:10


This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it

- Quran 2:3



My belief is that Quran is perfect, no Verse contradicts other verse, there is no conflict and there is No contradiction.


We will discuss 2:106-107 & 16:101 later.


First you answer my questions so that I know where you stand.

 

[uberkoen]

Brother You are pulling up " Aetrazaat " " Questions " " Criticism " " Objections on Holy Quran left, right in this thread


You are bringing Criticisms from all sorts of Websites.


A person like me doesn't adress the websites but adrrsses the blogger, the writer the poster infront of me and that is YOU. None other.


Firstly It is better to make a seperate thread or threads rather than discussing everything in Qibla direction and Earth shape thread


Now my concern is you and you only as Blogger. Not the Websites. So tell me where do you stand ?


If you claim that Naoozbillah there is Abbrogation in the Holy Quran than you will have to admit that Naoozbillah Quran is not a perfect Divine book. Because You cannot play on both sides of the wicket.

If Naoozbillah one Aaya says a thing on a particular subject as a direction and another Aaya on the same verse nullifies that or contradicts the other verse than this Book is Naoozbillah not perfect.


If God wasn't unsure about what direction or message He had to reveal to Prophet Mohammed Pbuh and He frewuently changed HIS mind Naoozbillah min Zaalik than GOD isn't perfect either. If God isn't perfect than I will not believe in an imperfect God. Etc etc.


Now Speak Up ? Where do you stand ? If you will say there is abrogation of Quranic verses than Quranic verses have conflict and Quran isn't uniform, consistent and perfect. Is this your stance ?


Otherwise with abrogations you cannot call it a perfect Book.


Do you believe in these verses to be True ? Right & Perfect ? If Yes than there is No abbrogation if No than there Is.


Will they not, then, meditate upon the Quran? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much disagreement.

- Quran 4:83


Verily, We Ourself have sent down this Exhortation, and most surely We will be its Guardian.


- Quran 15:10


This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it

- Quran 2:3



My belief is that Quran is perfect, no Verse contradicts other verse, there is no conflict and there is No contradiction.


We will discuss 2:106-107 & 16:101 later.


First you answer my questions so that I know where you stand.

I know the thread has been derailed but this is usually what happens to any thread, doesn't it? I don't want to open various threads discussing similar topics. I will open another one on a different topic later on though.

My view as well as the view of majority of muslim scholars is that there is abrogation in the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself admits to abrogation. The verses quoted in my post above are clear and most muslim scholars agree on this.

If you're saying there is no abrogation in the Qur'an then can you please explain those verses?

and when you talk about conflict and contradiction I've already quoted several examples in a multitude of posts. People who have replied have picked one or two and ignored the others. Fact of the matter is that in order to prove that there is in fact no contradiction in the Qur'an each and every verse where there appears to be a contradiction (and trust me there are many) need to be explained properly. You cannot pick and choose.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I know the thread has been derailed but this is usually what happens to any thread, doesn't it? I don't want to open various threads discussing similar topics. I will open another one on a different topic later on though.

My view as well as the view of majority of muslim scholars is that there is abrogation in the Qur'an. The Qur'an itself admits to abrogation. The verses quoted in my post above are clear and most muslim scholars agree on this.

If you're saying there is no abrogation in the Qur'an then can you please explain those verses?

and when you talk about conflict and contradiction I've already quoted several examples in a multitude of posts. People who have replied have picked one or two and ignored the others. Fact of the matter is that in order to prove that there is in fact no contradiction in the Qur'an each and every verse where there appears to be a contradiction (and trust me there are many) need to be explained properly. You cannot pick and choose.

So than this is not a perfect book. A book with contradictions and imperfections ?

Than why you look forward to this book ?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I will make a seperate thread to give my opinion on the 3 verses which (allegedly) say that "Quranic" verses abbrogate Quranic verses.(Naoozbillah)