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The Sajid Khan question: What keeps him from becoming an all-format star for Pakistan?

mominsaigol

mominsaigol

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Sajid Khan despite being a key factor against England has been dropped from the test squad for the upcoming SA series.

But why? I understand that sa is a pace only pitch and that both nouman + Sajid cannot play together, but it makes no sense to discard him from the squad as a whole.

Imo he can easily replace Babar Azam in tests since Babar has been a deadweight for a while now.

Babar Azam should only play odi and t20. Let Kamran ghulam play at no 4 in tests and sajid Khan should be a regular regardless.
 
Aqib_mustafa said:
Ya he is right now this guy is a warrior sajid he got to be there with sufiyan you will see team struggling big time vs these 2.
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If CT is Hybrid, Aka pak + UAE, Then sajid + Nouman shpuld play and be included.

Their the 2 best spinners followed by the fact that these 2 can bat and make perfect no 7/8/9.

Sufiyan can't bat.
 
He flights the ball too much.... I don't think he can succeed in white ball cricket so its better to keep him where he is performing well.
 
Aqib_mustafa said:
I mean pakistani fans are missing the plot sajid khan is the best spinner is the country dare i say one of the best off spinner in world he should be playing all format for pak.
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Pcb has never been good at identifying talent.

Noman chacha shpuld have made his debut in 2010 and sajid khan should have made his debut in 2016.
 
Genuinely though, why can't sajid become an allformat allrounder?

Agha is useless with the bat in t20 and if he ain't gonna bowl then no point in having him. In tests sajid should play.

Odi is the only question mark due to sajid's poor record in List A.
 
Wish to bump this thread.

Seeing how well some of the sa spinners were bowling and how rubbish sufiyan was bowling, why wasn't sajid selected?
 
Sajid and Abrar are good spinners to have in your squads for all series and can be rotated or played together.
 
Test specialists get a hard deal in Pak. Sajid doesn't even play PSL that's why the normal public isn't aware of his existence. I am not saying that he will be successful or that he's someone who will change our fortunes but the thing is he's decent and a lot of cricket is played in Asian conditions by us now.

He's also a workhorse so it'll help with the pathetic overrates we have in test cricket.
 
Need to earn a place through performances. He has a good first class record so deserved a chance in test cricket but his list a and t20 stats are poor. He played 3 games in the last domestic one day tournament and failed to take a single wicket. Would be unfair to promote him as an all-format player when others have massively outperformed him in the shorter formats.
This failure to understand that performances in one format doesn't automatically guarantee results in other formats is why Pakistan cricket consistently ends promising careers of specialists and ends up with guys who are barely good enough playing across formats.
 
Good thread OP. This is a serious question. I think Sajid is better than Abrar and our spin options in LOIs are pathetic.
 
I mean guys this guy sajid is pure joy to watch he is a fighter has lovely flight variations he is good with the bat why not select him in ct he can win pak ct if aqib can just select him he alone will make pak bowling more formidable and trouble teams plz discuss.
 
Sajid Khan is not a big spinner of the ball. He relies on accuracy and assistance from the pitch. Which is why in a a ground like South Africa or Australia its very difficult to play him. He is more of a 2nd spinner.

Abdur Rehman was just like him.

Meanwhile someone like Abrar Ahmed can get something from the pitch with the varieties of deliveries he has got. So he will ve able to get turn on a pitch in SENA.

As for ODI and T20. Again you need to be a turner of the ball and have varieties. In t20 cricket especially you need to have turn and also have other deliveries to counter attack.

In odi, guys like Lyon, Swann also struggled and only played that much cricket because their domestic cricket had no other options. Meanwhile someone like Imran Tahir churned out a career due to his turn and varieties.

The only thing Sajid can offer is economical spells that they can get from salman who can also bat.

In PSL he can be an option for a team, but only when their is spin assitance. Had psl been in UAE a case for him could had been made, but on flat pakistani wickets, its a nono
 
With that action there is only one thing he can do and that is vary his pace
He might be good option in places where bowl stays low and slow but not on normal odi pitches
 
mominsaigol said:
Pcb has never been good at identifying talent.

Noman chacha shpuld have made his debut in 2010 and sajid khan should have made his debut in 2016.
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How can you say Noman should had made his debut in 2010?

Abdur Rehman was the best left arm spinner. Rehmans accuracy was soo perfect no other LSA came near him in Pakistan. Only Rangana Herath in international cricket was better than him.

After Rehman, zulfiqar Babar was a domestic Stalwart that had to wait for his chance.

Than Ajmal was taking wickets for fun. Kaneria was also very good. Adnan Rasool was the next in line for a debut. Yasir Shah was catching everyones attention based on his control and match fitness he had.

Someone like Raza Hassan came up who at one point was known as the Left arm spinner that can bowl a doosra.

Noman was way below in the pecking order. Even after 2016, there is no way Sajid Khan was in the pecking order as Yasir next year took a 10fer at lords. Mohammad Asghar was about to be a given a debut aswell.

Guys like Noman and Sajid are only playing today due to limited options lwft. These guys would be your 2nd or 3rd spinner to someone like ajmal, yasir shah, kaneria or even Rehman.

Abdur Rehman himself played his whole career as a 2nd spinner but compared to these guys he was good enough to be a main spinner.

Than there are guys like Kamran Hussain and Imran Khalod that couldnt play international games but were good spinners
 
Major said:
How can you say Noman should had made his debut in 2010?

Abdur Rehman was the best left arm spinner. Rehmans accuracy was soo perfect no other LSA came near him in Pakistan. Only Rangana Herath in international cricket was better than him.

After Rehman, zulfiqar Babar was a domestic Stalwart that had to wait for his chance.

Than Ajmal was taking wickets for fun. Kaneria was also very good. Adnan Rasool was the next in line for a debut. Yasir Shah was catching everyones attention based on his control and match fitness he had.

Someone like Raza Hassan came up who at one point was known as the Left arm spinner that can bowl a doosra.

Noman was way below in the pecking order. Even after 2016, there is no way Sajid Khan was in the pecking order as Yasir next year took a 10fer at lords. Mohammad Asghar was about to be a given a debut aswell.

Guys like Noman and Sajid are only playing today due to limited options lwft. These guys would be your 2nd or 3rd spinner to someone like ajmal, yasir shah, kaneria or even Rehman.

Abdur Rehman himself played his whole career as a 2nd spinner but compared to these guys he was good enough to be a main spinner.

Than there are guys like Kamran Hussain and Imran Khalod that couldnt play international games but were good spinners
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Major said:
Sajid Khan is not a big spinner of the ball. He relies on accuracy and assistance from the pitch. Which is why in a a ground like South Africa or Australia its very difficult to play him. He is more of a 2nd spinner.

Abdur Rehman was just like him.

Meanwhile someone like Abrar Ahmed can get something from the pitch with the varieties of deliveries he has got. So he will ve able to get turn on a pitch in SENA.

As for ODI and T20. Again you need to be a turner of the ball and have varieties. In t20 cricket especially you need to have turn and also have other deliveries to counter attack.

In odi, guys like Lyon, Swann also struggled and only played that much cricket because their domestic cricket had no other options. Meanwhile someone like Imran Tahir churned out a career due to his turn and varieties.

The only thing Sajid can offer is economical spells that they can get from salman who can also bat.

In PSL he can be an option for a team, but only when their is spin assitance. Had psl been in UAE a case for him could had been made, but on flat pakistani wickets, its a nono
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Did you even see what root and Brooks did to abrar? He got outperformed by saqib mehmood.

Sajid is a much better soinner and turner of the ball then abrar.
 
Some cricketers are only successful on a specific wickets . Sajid will be a big failure unless he is given a rank turner. He will be a failure and will be very expensive in ODI and particularly in T20 where wickets are generally not supportive for spinners.

Other examples of such cricketer are trundler Abbass , takes wickets only on very helpful wickets and also our "Pakistan great ", Younis, who would score big, very big on roads, like one we used have in UAE but would fail in SENA.
 
Now even Aaqib can't keep him out of squad owing to mounting pressure, the guy has made many numb and dumb by his great spin wizardry
 
moghul said:
Some cricketers are only successful on a specific wickets . Sajid will be a big failure unless he is given a rank turner. He will be a failure and will be very expensive in ODI and particularly in T20 where wickets are generally not supportive for spinners.

Other examples of such cricketer are trundler Abbass , takes wickets only on very helpful wickets and also our "Pakistan great ", Younis, who would score big, very big on roads, like one we used have in UAE but would fail in SENA.
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Younis has a 50avg in aus? A 50 avg in eng, a 43 Avg in NZ? How is he poor in SENA? He only sucks in sa with a 32 avg but he's still scored a century in those conditons?

What on earth are you even on about? Have you seen his overseas performances?
 
RidiculousMan said:
I stopped reading there.
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Good, you saved yourself time from reading logic.

Anyone who cant diffrentiate between a spinner that spins with pitch assistance and a spinner than has proper turn in his ball, shouldnt be arguing here on spinners
 
moghul said:
Some cricketers are only successful on a specific wickets . Sajid will be a big failure unless he is given a rank turner. He will be a failure and will be very expensive in ODI and particularly in T20 where wickets are generally not supportive for spinners.

Other examples of such cricketer are trundler Abbass , takes wickets only on very helpful wickets and also our "Pakistan great ", Younis, who would score big, very big on roads, like one we used have in UAE but would fail in SENA.
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100%

Its just funny how posters here watch a few sessions and make claims that flana is a big turner, without knowing his strengths or weaknesses.

Alot of them never watched graem swann or lyon, how they struggled in limited overs
 
mominsaigol said:
Did you even see what root and Brooks did to abrar? He got outperformed by saqib mehmood.

Sajid is a much better soinner and turner of the ball then abrar.
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Reread my posts. Cant repeat it. Sajid is not better than abrar, reasons have already been discussed
 
Major said:
Reread my posts. Cant repeat it. Sajid is not better than abrar, reasons have already been discussed
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I have read your posts and it is total nonsense. It is no different from claiming rizwan is Pakistan's 2nd best odi batter of all time or misbah and shadab makes it ahead of inzi and afridi in an atg line up.

Abrar is slow as molasses and is useless in normal conditons. Brooks molested him because abrar had zero turn and unlike people like zampa who are smart bowlers, Abrar was clueless on how to bowl with accuracy under such conditons.

Even when touring England he got lucky once with his 7 wicket haul, After that haul he was useless and noman Ali did most of the work.

Just cause abrar is another misbah product, doesn't mean you put him in the same limelight as your hero. Sajid is a proper spinner. He'll get tonked in aus and sa but will be handy everywhere else while abrar will be downright useless in eng and NZ.
 
mominsaigol said:
Younis has a 50avg in aus? A 50 avg in eng, a 43 Avg in NZ? How is he poor in SENA? He only sucks in sa with a 32 avg but he's still scored a century in those conditons?

What on earth are you even on about? Have you seen his overseas performances?
Click to expand...
That's the difference how a stat guru and a true followers of the game assess a particular players. Younis average is great and if you look how he achieved that average. Its similar to Imam's very impressive average in ODIs. Younis had one big quality for which I admire him. He was a very committed and physically fit cricketers. Had a poor technique and performance on against quality bowling on a supportive wickets but the moment he would find a flat wicket , he would make full use of it and would score big and would keep his average high .

For example, in 2016 4 test series in England , he failed in first 6 innings in a row but the moment he found the most batting friendly wicket in England , Oval, he scored a double century, a typical Younis and he kept his tour average at a very respectful 48. He scored 340 tests runs on the tour but out of that 218 in just one last inning and only 122 in previous 6 innings where wickets were not so flat .

That has been the story of our king of the roads through out his career.
 
mominsaigol said:
Did you even see what root and Brooks did to abrar? He got outperformed by saqib mehmood.

Sajid is a much better soinner and turner of the ball then abrar.
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Put Sajad on those phattas and he would have got smashed too.

The pitches were just horrible.
 
mominsaigol said:
I have read your posts and it is total nonsense. It is no different from claiming rizwan is Pakistan's 2nd best odi batter of all time or misbah and shadab makes it ahead of inzi and afridi in an atg line up.

Abrar is slow as molasses and is useless in normal conditons. Brooks molested him because abrar had zero turn and unlike people like zampa who are smart bowlers, Abrar was clueless on how to bowl with accuracy under such conditons.

Even when touring England he got lucky once with his 7 wicket haul, After that haul he was useless and noman Ali did most of the work.

Just cause abrar is another misbah product, doesn't mean you put him in the same limelight as your hero. Sajid is a proper spinner. He'll get tonked in aus and sa but will be handy everywhere else while abrar will be downright useless in eng and NZ.
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Offcourse. My post will be a nonsense to a young fan.

You still have not provided any logic in your post just talking about a batsman doing this against him.

Let me educate you about spinners.

A spinner is judge on three things, his accuracy, his turn and his varieties.

Now look at your thread title, it states why Sajid cannot be an all format bowler. Than you have made a claim that Noman should had debutted for pakistan in 2010 and sajid in 2016.

Now in test cricket, there are three groups. The SENA group. The spin paradise and the flat tracks.

Any spinner that brings the ball in towards the batter and has good accuracy, will do well in a spin paradise. The only thing you need to have is accuracy. Your lack of varieties, lack of turn is not an issue as on a spin paradise the turn comes automatically due to pitch assistance. This is why, many fans are being fooled into believe that Sajid is some big spinner of the ball, when inreality its the spin track doing its tricks.


In SENA and on flat tracks, its very difficult for a spinner to take wickets. You can be accurate, but if you dont have proper turn than you will be a dud in SENA and Flat tracks. In SENA and Flat tracks you not only need to have skill to get turn on your bowling through your wrist or fingers but you need to have variety.

Guys like Zulfiqar Babar and Rehman failed. Even though they both were very accurate, but they couldnt turn the ball through their action and their varieties were limited.

Even Yasir Shah struggled because Yasir had a good turner but his varieties werent there. Still Yasir churned out wickets at Lords.

Than comes limited overs. In limited overs, you need varieties or turn. In limited overs you dont get spin paradises. It happens very rarely. Guys like Abrar not big turner but his varieties make him a threat in limited overs. In limited overs if you keep getting hit, you need to throw in something different. Alot of these guys dont have a googly or doosra so they rely on a carom ball

Sajid Khan doesnt have varieties nor is he big turner on a non spinning pitch. thus he would struggle, and which is why PSL teams wont pick him.

One of the reasons why Asghar fell out in psl and why Quetta lost alot of games is becaue when PSL moved away from UAE to Pakistan, Asghar was in effective and Quetta also had issues as Nawaz was someone that relied on the pitch..

Sajid is a great spinner on a pitch that assists him and so is Nauman, but thats about it. There are reasons for not playong them in all formats as mentioned above.

As for your claims that they should had played in 2010 and 2016, here is a list of spinners that were their in the pecking order, so if you seriously think that Sajid and Noamn should had debutted in 2010 and 2016, than i cant argue any further.


Spinners that we had available 2010 onwards

Danish Kaneria
Ajmal
Abdur rehman
Zulfiqar babar
Yasir shah
Raza Hassan
Adnan Rasool
Kamran Hussain
Imran Khalid
 
moghul said:
That's the difference how a stat guru and a true followers of the game assess a particular players. Younis average is great and if you look how he achieved that average. Its similar to Imam's very impressive average in ODIs. Younis had one big quality for which I admire him. He was a very committed and physically fit cricketers. Had a poor technique and performance on against quality bowling on a supportive wickets but the moment he would find a flat wicket , he would make full use of it and would score big and would keep his average high .

For example, in 2016 4 test series in England , he failed in first 6 innings in a row but the moment he found the most batting friendly wicket in England , Oval, he scored a double century, a typical Younis and he kept his tour average at a very respectful 48. He scored 340 tests runs on the tour but out of that 218 in just one last inning and only 122 in previous 6 innings where wickets were not so flat .

That has been the story of our king of the roads through out his career.
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Odi is different.

Once the 2 new ball era came into play, it became very easy for openers to have stupidly high averages in odi cricket, followed by the fact that Pakistan played alot of c string during this time period due to cover and sides not wanting their best players to play during the virus and lock down.

Test is not the same. Yk has scored a 218 in England . In that very game England had gotten thrashed and the pitch wasn't easy to bat on. They managed to scamper to 328 due to a fluke innings by moeen Ali otherwise the likes of cook struggled heavily on said pitch and failed in both innings.

I saw that game live and it wasn't an easy pitch and certainly not a road.

No clue why you used the imam example lol.
 
moghul said:
That's the difference how a stat guru and a true followers of the game assess a particular players. Younis average is great and if you look how he achieved that average. Its similar to Imam's very impressive average in ODIs. Younis had one big quality for which I admire him. He was a very committed and physically fit cricketers. Had a poor technique and performance on against quality bowling on a supportive wickets but the moment he would find a flat wicket , he would make full use of it and would score big and would keep his average high .

For example, in 2016 4 test series in England , he failed in first 6 innings in a row but the moment he found the most batting friendly wicket in England , Oval, he scored a double century, a typical Younis and he kept his tour average at a very respectful 48. He scored 340 tests runs on the tour but out of that 218 in just one last inning and only 122 in previous 6 innings where wickets were not so flat .

That has been the story of our king of the roads through out his career.
Click to expand...
Younis had a very poor technique, but his ability to play long innings was great if he was able to overcome the demons of a bowling pitch which was rare.

In sena he would often fail, but if he was able to get into the 80s some how than there was no stopping him and was a treat to watch.
 
mominsaigol said:
Odi is different.

Once the 2 new ball era came into play, it became very easy for openers to have stupidly high averages in odi cricket, followed by the fact that Pakistan played alot of c string during this time period due to cover and sides not wanting their best players to play during the virus and lock down.

Test is not the same. Yk has scored a 218 in England . In that very game England had gotten thrashed and the pitch wasn't easy to bat on. They managed to scamper to 328 due to a fluke innings by moeen Ali otherwise the likes of cook struggled heavily on said pitch and failed in both innings.

I saw that game live and it wasn't an easy pitch and certainly not a road.

No clue why you used the imam example lol.
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Hain? 2 new balls made it easier for openers? :sachin

Lol bro, playing the new ball is very difficult. It takes 8 overs to adjust to 1 new ball atleast and 2 new balls meant it took 15 to 17 overs atleast.

Its easier to play the older ball than to play the new ball
 
moghul said:
That's the difference how a stat guru and a true followers of the game assess a particular players. Younis average is great and if you look how he achieved that average. Its similar to Imam's very impressive average in ODIs. Younis had one big quality for which I admire him. He was a very committed and physically fit cricketers. Had a poor technique and performance on against quality bowling on a supportive wickets but the moment he would find a flat wicket , he would make full use of it and would score big and would keep his average high .

For example, in 2016 4 test series in England , he failed in first 6 innings in a row but the moment he found the most batting friendly wicket in England , Oval, he scored a double century, a typical Younis and he kept his tour average at a very respectful 48. He scored 340 tests runs on the tour but out of that 218 in just one last inning and only 122 in previous 6 innings where wickets were not so flat .

That has been the story of our king of the roads through out his career.
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Actually your analysis is that of a statguru.

I'm not sure how Younis double century came on flat wicket when England only scored 300 in first innings and then 240 in second. Did the pitch become flat for Younis but not for England.

His double century was actually the hallmark of a great player. The chips were down, the series was on the line and he stood up tall to win the match and draw the series for his side. That is what great test match batting is all about but you seem to have relegated it to a nothing innings for some reason.

He has many such epic knocks across the world and is a deserving name among the top names of test match cricket.
 
Major said:
Offcourse. My post will be a nonsense to a young fan.

You still have not provided any logic in your post just talking about a batsman doing this against him.

Let me educate you about spinners.

A spinner is judge on three things, his accuracy, his turn and his varieties.

Now look at your thread title, it states why Sajid cannot be an all format bowler. Than you have made a claim that Noman should had debutted for pakistan in 2010 and sajid in 2016.

Now in test cricket, there are three groups. The SENA group. The spin paradise and the flat tracks.

Any spinner that brings the ball in towards the batter and has good accuracy, will do well in a spin paradise. The only thing you need to have is accuracy. Your lack of varieties, lack of turn is not an issue as on a spin paradise the turn comes automatically due to pitch assistance. This is why, many fans are being fooled into believe that Sajid is some big spinner of the ball, when inreality its the spin track doing its tricks.


In SENA and on flat tracks, its very difficult for a spinner to take wickets. You can be accurate, but if you dont have proper turn than you will be a dud in SENA and Flat tracks. In SENA and Flat tracks you not only need to have skill to get turn on your bowling through your wrist or fingers but you need to have variety.

Guys like Zulfiqar Babar and Rehman failed. Even though they both were very accurate, but they couldnt turn the ball through their action and their varieties were limited.

Even Yasir Shah struggled because Yasir had a good turner but his varieties werent there. Still Yasir churned out wickets at Lords.

Than comes limited overs. In limited overs, you need varieties or turn. In limited overs you dont get spin paradises. It happens very rarely. Guys like Abrar not big turner but his varieties make him a threat in limited overs. In limited overs if you keep getting hit, you need to throw in something different. Alot of these guys dont have a googly or doosra so they rely on a carom ball

Sajid Khan doesnt have varieties nor is he big turner on a non spinning pitch. thus he would struggle, and which is why PSL teams wont pick him.

One of the reasons why Asghar fell out in psl and why Quetta lost alot of games is becaue when PSL moved away from UAE to Pakistan, Asghar was in effective and Quetta also had issues as Nawaz was someone that relied on the pitch..

Sajid is a great spinner on a pitch that assists him and so is Nauman, but thats about it. There are reasons for not playong them in all formats as mentioned above.

As for your claims that they should had played in 2010 and 2016, here is a list of spinners that were their in the pecking order, so if you seriously think that Sajid and Noamn should had debutted in 2010 and 2016, than i cant argue any further.


Spinners that we had available 2010 onwards

Danish Kaneria
Ajmal
Abdur rehman
Zulfiqar babar
Yasir shah
Raza Hassan
Adnan Rasool
Kamran Hussain
Imran Khalid
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But you have to admit sajid can be a bigger match winner than abrar in odis plus he can bat and a good fielder he is 3D player pak are wasting sajid talent dont you think?
 
Aqib_mustafa said:
But you have to admit sajid can be a bigger match winner than abrar in odis plus he can bat and a good fielder he is 3D player pak are wasting sajid talent dont you think?
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bro based on what? Everyone in this thread is saying that Sajid can be great, but no one is giving any logic here.

Can Sajid turn the ball without any asisstance from the pitch? Does Sajid have a wrongun or some other variety that can help him survive in limited overs?

When the likes of Graeme Swann and Nathan Lyon have struggled, what can Sajid do which is different?

Im not claiming here that Sajid is bad or Abrar is good, im just stating the facts that Abrar has varierties and Sajid doesnt, which is why one is being given a chance in limited overs and the other isnt.

One of the reasons why Imad Wasim was played in limited overs is because he had varieties and variation.

How exactly is Pakistan wasting him?
 
Major said:
Hain? 2 new balls made it easier for openers? :sachin

Lol bro, playing the new ball is very difficult. It takes 8 overs to adjust to 1 new ball atleast and 2 new balls meant it took 15 to 17 overs atleast.

Its easier to play the older ball than to play the new ball
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Look at the avg and sr's of players in the past like Sachin, lara and pointing in odi and look at them now?

This take is beyond hilarious and shows how little understanding you have. New balls effectively finished reverse swing and old ball is not easier to play in odi. It's not test where it became 80 to 100 overs old. A 30 to 40 over new ball is difficult to hit hence lofted strokes were not easy to play.

As the ball got softer and older cut shots and sweep shots were harder compared to now where a 20 to 25 over old ball is hard and gets sent flying to the rope.

Even overs 6 to 10 were hard due to the old PP rules compared to now where only 2 fielders are allowed outside the inner ring turning the format into a joke.

@Hitman has way way more knowledge on this and can educate you far far better. But then again their isnt any point since you won't understand.

You're the same guy who made the argument that since pakistan has never had a 50 avg batter in odi, it makes babar the best all time, which automatically also extends to Babar being > the likes of sachin, Sanga, pointing, lara etc in odi according to your trolling logic.
 
Major said:
bro based on what? Everyone in this thread is saying that Sajid can be great, but no one is giving any logic here.

Can Sajid turn the ball without any asisstance from the pitch? Does Sajid have a wrongun or some other variety that can help him survive in limited overs?

When the likes of Graeme Swann and Nathan Lyon have struggled, what can Sajid do which is different?

Im not claiming here that Sajid is bad or Abrar is good, im just stating the facts that Abrar has varierties and Sajid doesnt, which is why one is being given a chance in limited overs and the other isnt.

One of the reasons why Imad Wasim was played in limited overs is because he had varieties and variation.

How exactly is Pakistan wasting him?
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I've got no issue with trying him during the tri series to see what he can do but I think Nomi Chacha could be the more effective LOi bowler. He has good guile and control over pace and flight. I actually don't rate Abrar too highly either.
 
mominsaigol said:
Look at the avg and sr's of players in the past like Sachin, lara and pointing in odi and look at them now?

This take is beyond hilarious and shows how little understanding you have. New balls effectively finished reverse swing and old ball is not easier to play in odi. It's not test where it became 80 to 100 overs old. A 30 to 40 over new ball is difficult to hit hence lofted strokes were not easy to play.

As the ball got softer and older cut shots and sweep shots were harder compared to now where a 20 to 25 over old ball is hard and gets sent flying to the rope.

Even overs 6 to 10 were hard due to the old PP rules compared to now where only 2 fielders are allowed outside the inner ring turning the format into a joke.

@Hitman has way way more knowledge on this and can educate you far far better. But then again their isnt any point since you won't understand.

You're the same guy who made the argument that since pakistan has never had a 50 avg batter in odi, it makes babar the best all time, which automatically also extends to Babar being > the likes of sachin, Sanga, pointing, lara etc in odi according to your trolling logic.
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:facepalm:

Reverse swing coms into effect after the 35th over. We were discussing openers in that post and you made the claim that Imam scored runs easily due to two new balls makign the game easy. Your comment would had made sense if we were discussing a batsman between no.4 to no7, because the reverse swing factor eliminating did made it easier for those guys.

An opener who used to face 1 new ball in the past and having to face 2 new balls is much more difficult because he has to negate the swing and seam of the new ball. So in the past if this took 8 overs, now it will take 16 overs.

You seem to ignore the context and tend to generalize everything.

Bas aek jaga parh leya kay 2 new balls make things difficult lol, without knowing the context.

Its fun to be educated when the other perrson atleast knows what he is talking about and not just reading and writing stuff without context.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
I've got no issue with trying him during the tri series to see what he can do but I think Nomi Chacha could be the more effective LOi bowler. He has good guile and control over pace and flight. I actually don't rate Abrar too highly either.
Click to expand...
bro, its a waste of space. We all know whats going to happen. He wont really get any wickets, get some good economical spells and thats it. At best he could be a support spinner but not your main attacking spinner. Your main spinner should either be Abrar or Sufiyan.

We did these experiments with Zulfiqar Babar, Yasir Shah and Abdur Rehman in limited overs. All three guys were better than Sajid and Noman.

The only way Sajid would be effective in limited overs if the pitch is a turning one, the opposition sucks against spin and Sajid is playing as the 3rd or maybe as the 2nd spinner. You will still need another spinner as your main attacker.

This is like the 2011 world cup which was held in the subcontinent. Ajmal was the main spinner, and Afridi was the second guy. But Rehman was kept as the third guy as we knew that spin wickets would be there in that world cup.

Someone like Mitchell Santner did well in the 2016 world t20 (or which ever one held in India) due to the spinning tracks India had. Now, again for Nauman to be effective, he would need such a pitch.

Its all about hoping that all stars align well to adjust these guys. Maybe, if Abrar and Sufiyan fail at limited overs than a bone can be thrown to these 2 guys as than we wil have all options exhausted, but right now, it makes no sense.

Salman Agha is already playing as a part timer that can get a few economical overs in between.
 
Major said:
:facepalm:

Reverse swing coms into effect after the 35th over. We were discussing openers in that post and you made the claim that Imam scored runs easily due to two new balls makign the game easy. Your comment would had made sense if we were discussing a batsman between no.4 to no7, because the reverse swing factor eliminating did made it easier for those guys.

An opener who used to face 1 new ball in the past and having to face 2 new balls is much more difficult because he has to negate the swing and seam of the new ball. So in the past if this took 8 overs, now it will take 16 overs.

You seem to ignore the context and tend to generalize everything.

Bas aek jaga parh leya kay 2 new balls make things difficult lol, without knowing the context.

Its fun to be educated when the other perrson atleast knows what he is talking about and not just reading and writing stuff without context.
Click to expand...
Right, So explain why Sachin an opener avg less then imam sahib? Doesn't imam face tougher conditons while opening?

The problem with the 1 ball is that after 5 overs the ball would stop swinging, and by the 8th to 9th over certain shots like drives and pull shots are just harder to play.

The two new balls allow openers to consistently bat with a hard, shiny ball during the first 10 overs of the pp hence Pull shots, Drives, Knicks, Mistimed hits can easily go for boundaries which was not the case in the past.

Just because it swings more doesn't mean that it's harder to play since it's still easier to play across the line and attack + go big.

Lastly the one ball also accumulated dirt and grass so it's not like the it's 25 overs are equivalent to 50 overs of today. More like 15 overs are equivalent to 50 overs of today.
 
mominsaigol said:
Right, So explain why Sachin an opener avg less then imam sahib? Doesn't imam face tougher conditons while opening?

The problem with the 1 ball is that after 5 overs the ball would stop swinging, and by the 8th to 9th over certain shots like drives and pull shots are just harder to play.

The two new balls allow openers to consistently bat with a hard, shiny ball during the first 10 overs of the pp hence Pull shots, Drives, Knicks, Mistimed hits can easily go for boundaries which was not the case in the past.

Just because it swings more doesn't mean that it's harder to play since it's still easier to play across the line and attack + go big.

Lastly the one ball also accumulated dirt and grass so it's not like the it's 25 overs are equivalent to 50 overs of today. More like 15 overs are equivalent to 50 overs of today.
Click to expand...
Where did i claim Imam is better than Sachin? As always you are assuming things.


Playing the new ball is not as easy as you think it is. Its one of the most difficult tasks where openers without footwork have to play the new ball as the ball is coming fast and moving and you cant adjust to it. LOL after 5 overs the 1 new ball starts getting reverse swing? Reverse Swing comes way later in the sinnings, like after the 30th or 35th.

Two new balls makes batting more difficult for openers.

Now the Tendulkar vs Imam arugment you have bought up. Tendulkar has played 400+ plus games. Those 400 games have a whole hisotry and story where Tendu went through bad patches injuries made comebacks etc. Offcourse his avg wont maintain.

Meanwhile Imam has only played like 70ish games and alot of them against easier attacks.

Imams batting being good or bad is a different story.

But you cannot make claims here that opening is easier than before based on no logic response. 2 new balls means playing a new ball till 16th over and surviving it. Notice how i mentioned openers here and not middle order batters
 
Major said:
Where did i claim Imam is better than Sachin? As always you are assuming things.


Playing the new ball is not as easy as you think it is. Its one of the most difficult tasks where openers without footwork have to play the new ball as the ball is coming fast and moving and you cant adjust to it. LOL after 5 overs the 1 new ball starts getting reverse swing? Reverse Swing comes way later in the sinnings, like after the 30th or 35th.

Two new balls makes batting more difficult for openers.

Now the Tendulkar vs Imam arugment you have bought up. Tendulkar has played 400+ plus games. Those 400 games have a whole hisotry and story where Tendu went through bad patches injuries made comebacks etc. Offcourse his avg wont maintain.

Meanwhile Imam has only played like 70ish games and alot of them against easier attacks.

Imams batting being good or bad is a different story.

But you cannot make claims here that opening is easier than before based on no logic response. 2 new balls means playing a new ball till 16th over and surviving it. Notice how i mentioned openers here and not middle order batters
Click to expand...
In the one-ball era, the ball would be new and shiny for the first 10 overs, creating significant conventional swing.

Skilled bowlers like Wasim Akram, Chaminda Vaas, and Glenn McGrath exploited the swinging ball with precision, making it harder for openers to survive.

In the 2 new ball era, Both balls remain new and shiny during the first 10 overs (one from each end), but this divides wear and tear across two balls.

Swing exists but is generally less pronounced because of modern ball designs (Dukes/Kookaburra).

This is why 60 to 80 runs are targeted in the first 10 overs in odi now days compared to 30 to 40 back then.

The designs + PP rules have completly changed.
 
No spinner in the world is an all format star in modern cricket. Especially not a specialist off spinner.

It's impossible unless they have all round value as a lower order batter etc.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Actually your analysis is that of a statguru.

I'm not sure how Younis double century came on flat wicket when England only scored 300 in first innings and then 240 in second. Did the pitch become flat for Younis but not for England.

His double century was actually the hallmark of a great player. The chips were down, the series was on the line and he stood up tall to win the match and draw the series for his side. That is what great test match batting is all about but you seem to have relegated it to a nothing innings for some reason.

He has many such epic knocks across the world and is a deserving name among the top names of test match cricket.
Click to expand...
And what exactly did this " great player" in the preceding 6 innings ?

Wicket at Oval was so flat even Asad Shafiq managed to score a century but some good bowling by Yasir won the match for Pakistan , yes credit goes to Younis also , for making full use of helpful batting conditions .
 
moghul said:
And what exactly did this " great player" in the preceding 6 innings ?

Wicket at Oval was so flat even Asad Shafiq managed to score a century but some good bowling by Yasir won the match for Pakistan , yes credit goes to Younis also , for making full use of helpful batting conditions .
Click to expand...
We cant just dismiss a knock because in previous 6 innings the batsman failed.

This was not a dead rubber. The match was on the balance, the series was in the balance and he won the match to level the series. Cricinfo report said it was one of the best results on English soil.

There is not much more a player can do in that situation.

And I'm not sure why you keep saying it's flat. Just because Younis and Azhar scored? Why could Root and Cook not score?
 
DeadlyVenom said:
We cant just dismiss a knock because in previous 6 innings the batsman failed.

This was not a dead rubber. The match was on the balance, the series was in the balance and he won the match to level the series. Cricinfo report said it was one of the best results on English soil.

There is not much more a player can do in that situation.

And I'm not sure why you keep saying it's flat. Just because Younis and Azhar scored? Why could Root and Cook not score?
Click to expand...
Not just in England , Oval has been one of the most batting friendly wicket in the world , no wonder our " kind of the road" made full use of it.


VenueTestsDecisive resultsDrawsRuns per wktRuns per over
St John's Antigua51453.603.21
The Oval62443.153.59
Adelaide Oval65141.693.28
Lord's137640.173.48
Gaddafi Stadium Lahore86239.743.50
Sydney Cricket Ground98139.393.63
Brisbane Cricket Ground65138.763.52
Headingley Leeds55036.713.57
SSC Colombo97236.573.22
WACA Ground Perth65135.703.50

Most batsman-friendly Test venues since 2002 (Qual: at least five Tests)
 
mominsaigol said:
Sajid Khan despite being a key factor against England has been dropped from the test squad for the upcoming SA series.

But why? I understand that sa is a pace only pitch and that both nouman + Sajid cannot play together, but it makes no sense to discard him from the squad as a whole.

Imo he can easily replace Babar Azam in tests since Babar has been a deadweight for a while now.

Babar Azam should only play odi and t20. Let Kamran ghulam play at no 4 in tests and sajid Khan should be a regular regardless.
Click to expand...
Sajid and Nauman are a must for the Odi team. I think it’s a travesty they are being overlooked.

Sajid (and this thread is about him nobody else) is an absolute diamond. Some people say he is being assisted by a helpful pitch.

Actually this is only half true but certainly this pitch is making even West Indies spinners look like murali and our batsmen certainly help in that.

What some people are doing is keep using this word Variety. An off spinner generally doesn’t have any variety so to speak. Yes an arm ball goes straight but the doosra is pretty much out of the game..what else?

What is unique about Saj is the drift and dip the aggression and his partnership with Noman. Let me explain. A spinner is nothing without his partner. At least one, preferably the whole quartet. For good measure check out warne with and without McGrath or murali without Vaas. Even Kumble and Harbajan (zk, irfan etc).

Spinners need phenomenal support, on their own they are nothing. It helps if there is a captain who knows how to set a field and traps. That’s mighty useful when a spinner has to bowl long spells when not much is happening. Saj will never have this but he will have to work it out himself. Nauman is helping him.

Sajid flights , gets drift, beats a batsmen in the air, varies his length. None of this has anything to do with the pitch (or very little) he would have been as effective in SAF but not so in Australia.

Reason…. he was dumped in Australia without decent partners. Nothing to do with his amount of turn. Amount of turn only needs to be half a bat. It’s what you make of that half turn. Half a turn with drift and dip is lethal. You simply can’t sweep and LBW is always on the cards.

Have high hopes for him…not so much our batsmen against windies spinners.
 
Imagine the damage Nauman & Sajid could have done during the SA Test series, unless it’s a completely damp squib and overcast conditions, these two would be a handful anywhere in the world. Technique’s against swing and spin are just not what they use to be, I’d say the latter especially due to lack of exposure in testing conditions and general lack of high quality spinners.
 
mominsaigol said:
In the one-ball era, the ball would be new and shiny for the first 10 overs, creating significant conventional swing.

Skilled bowlers like Wasim Akram, Chaminda Vaas, and Glenn McGrath exploited the swinging ball with precision, making it harder for openers to survive.

In the 2 new ball era, Both balls remain new and shiny during the first 10 overs (one from each end), but this divides wear and tear across two balls.

Swing exists but is generally less pronounced because of modern ball designs (Dukes/Kookaburra).

This is why 60 to 80 runs are targeted in the first 10 overs in odi now days compared to 30 to 40 back then.

The designs + PP rules have completly changed.
Click to expand...
What are you saying?

Its an obvious thing that if playing 1 new ball was difficult for an opener, than playing against two new balls is more difficult as the new ball movement lasts for more overs.

What PP rules have changed for openers and what ball design have changed?
 
Sajid at least can be tried in ODIs. If Pakistan can prepare 50% pitch of what they have right now in multan for tests, things can work fine for him.

Pitches depend on ICC for these event unless you are BCCI...LOL
 
They can try him alongside the other spinners to see how things go.

But he's never been a dominant List-A spinner and there's such a thing as being a one-format specialist similar to someone like Nathan Lyon.

Some guys are just good at one format. Even Seales with the Windies is the same.
 
Sajid Khan List A record: 37.88 average and averages less than a wicket per inning.

Haven't we learned from previous mistakes and trying Test specialists in ODI's when they're not anything alike. Just to list a few players who were Test specialist and were tried in LOI only to fail spectacularly:

- Yasir
- Mohammad Abbas
- Asad Shafiq (60 ODI's + 10 T20's - I wonder why Pakistan in 2010's were such a garbage ODI side...)
- Younis Khan
- Fawad Alam (he played in more T20's than Tests!)

And this is just in recent history. Who knows how many countless other names there are if you go through the history.

He's doing well in Tests and even then, he is not an all conditions bowler. He is a bowler for spinning conditions and there is nothing wrong with that. It's how NZ uses Ajaz Patel.
 
Major said:
What are you saying?

Its an obvious thing that if playing 1 new ball was difficult for an opener, than playing against two new balls is more difficult as the new ball movement lasts for more overs.

What PP rules have changed for openers and what ball design have changed?
Click to expand...
Rn sajid khan and Abrar are bowling side by side on the same doctored pitch.

Can you tell me why abrar is getting bullied and sajid just picked up 2 wickets?
 
mominsaigol said:
Rn sajid khan and Abrar are bowling side by side on the same doctored pitch.

Can you tell me why abrar is getting bullied and sajid just picked up 2 wickets?
Click to expand...
I already answer this thing, which you ignored.

Bowling into the batsman. Sajid will be more effective on the doctored pitch because his delivery is coming into the right handed batter. Thus opening the chance for lbw, bowled or even an edge.

Now usually, if the bowler is not breaking the ball(turning the ball) this can be dangerous and the batter can attack such a bowler for alot of runs. But if the bowler is turning the ball massively than it becomes very difficult to bat on.

A better example was Abdur Rehman throwing the ball on the rough and picking up a wicket.

Abrar is a leggie, and for him to be more effective on this wicket is by going for a googly more often than ever.
 
Major said:
I already answer this thing, which you ignored.

Bowling into the batsman. Sajid will be more effective on the doctored pitch because his delivery is coming into the right handed batter. Thus opening the chance for lbw, bowled or even an edge.

Now usually, if the bowler is not breaking the ball(turning the ball) this can be dangerous and the batter can attack such a bowler for alot of runs. But if the bowler is turning the ball massively than it becomes very difficult to bat on.

A better example was Abdur Rehman throwing the ball on the rough and picking up a wicket.

Abrar is a leggie, and for him to be more effective on this wicket is by going for a googly more often than ever.
Click to expand...
So injustice will continue with sajid not being selected for odis parchi system feel sad for sajid
 
Major said:
I already answer this thing, which you ignored.

Bowling into the batsman. Sajid will be more effective on the doctored pitch because his delivery is coming into the right handed batter. Thus opening the chance for lbw, bowled or even an edge.

Now usually, if the bowler is not breaking the ball(turning the ball) this can be dangerous and the batter can attack such a bowler for alot of runs. But if the bowler is turning the ball massively than it becomes very difficult to bat on.

A better example was Abdur Rehman throwing the ball on the rough and picking up a wicket.

Abrar is a leggie, and for him to be more effective on this wicket is by going for a googly more often than ever.
Click to expand...
All i hear are excuses. As I said, I read what you said. I'm choosing to ignore it cause it's the epitome of stupidity.

Abrar got bullied left and right by England. Against Klaseen he was useless but he's lucky sa is terrible Against spin barring klaseen.

He's a slow as molasses bowler. Ineffective
 
mominsaigol said:
All i hear are excuses. As I said, I read what you said. I'm choosing to ignore it cause it's the epitome of stupidity.

Abrar got bullied left and right by England. Against Klaseen he was useless but he's lucky sa is terrible Against spin barring klaseen.

He's a slow as molasses bowler. Ineffective
Click to expand...
Its really funny how people here dont understand spin bowling, and instead of bothering to learn they blame their ignorance on others and call others stupid...

Jusy ironic really
 
Aqib_mustafa said:
So injustice will continue with sajid not being selected for odis parchi system feel sad for sajid
Click to expand...
What injustice? How do you define justice?

Did you know Sajid has played 38 list A games and has 34 wickets. He has less wickets than games played.

There is no injustice really.
 
Major said:
Its really funny how people here dont understand spin bowling, and instead of bothering to learn they blame their ignorance on others and call others stupid...

Jusy ironic really
Click to expand...
So tell me when injustice will stop why sajid match winner is not getting selected for ct odi he will win pak games there as well.
 
Major said:
Its really funny how people here dont understand spin bowling, and instead of bothering to learn they blame their ignorance on others and call others stupid...

Jusy ironic really
Click to expand...
Yes you're right. You understand spin bowling sir jee. Clearly abrar is superior to Sajid.

Ig sajid is fluking these nonstop 10 wicket hauls
 
Nasty Naz said:
Sajid Khan List A record: 37.88 average and averages less than a wicket per inning.

Haven't we learned from previous mistakes and trying Test specialists in ODI's when they're not anything alike. Just to list a few players who were Test specialist and were tried in LOI only to fail spectacularly:

- Yasir
- Mohammad Abbas
- Asad Shafiq (60 ODI's + 10 T20's - I wonder why Pakistan in 2010's were such a garbage ODI side...)
- Younis Khan
- Fawad Alam (he played in more T20's than Tests!)

And this is just in recent history. Who knows how many countless other names there are if you go through the history.

He's doing well in Tests and even then, he is not an all conditions bowler. He is a bowler for spinning conditions and there is nothing wrong with that. It's how NZ uses Ajaz Patel.
Click to expand...
Alot of the posters here are new generation that havent watched much games, so cant blame them.

But i would prefer if these guys are open to understanding the game instead of going around laughing and being disrespectful for their own lack of understanding
 
Major said:
Alot of the posters here are new generation that havent watched much games, so cant blame them.

But i would prefer if these guys are open to understanding the game instead of going around laughing and being disrespectful for their own lack of understanding
Click to expand...
Understanding the game means making statements such as

1) Misbah > Inzi

2) Rizwan 2nd best odi pk batter of all time

3) Abrar > Sajid

4) 2024 is early 2000's

Jee theik hai ghalib.
 
Aqib_mustafa said:
So tell me when injustice will stop why sajid match winner is not getting selected for ct odi he will win pak games there as well.
Click to expand...
Sajid Khan is the best spinner in the country period.

Handy no 8 as well since he can bat. Don't listen to certain posters. They live in Misbah and SNGPL lala land.

1) Babar
2) Rizwan
3) Abrar
4) Niazi
5) Chacha
6) Abdullah
7) Shadab
8) Nawaz
9) Usama Mir

And many more have done nonstop damage to pakistan cricket.

1) Saud Shakeel
2) Saim Ayub
3) Sajid Khan
4) Fakhar Zaman

^^ These 4 are currently the best talents in the country.
 
mominsaigol said:
Understanding the game means making statements such as

1) Misbah > Inzi

2) Rizwan 2nd best odi pk batter of all time

3) Abrar > Sajid

4) 2024 is early 2000's

Jee theik hai ghalib.
Click to expand...
Where did i said abrar > Sajid

As always you have started your assumptions. Read the thread title, my reply was preference would be to arbar in limited overs due to reasons stated.

It seems like, any moment you see a disagreement you make up fantasy that the poster is claiming a person is better and bigger than the other.

Really immature poster
 
Major said:
Where did i said abrar > Sajid

As always you have started your assumptions. Read the thread title, my reply was preference would be to arbar in limited overs due to reasons stated.

It seems like, any moment you see a disagreement you make up fantasy that the poster is claiming a person is better and bigger than the other.

Really immature poster
Click to expand...
Reread my posts. Cant repeat it. Sajid is not better than abrar, reasons have already been discussed

This is what you said. The words clearly imply that abrar is superior.

Or are you going to rat out and say but but but I didn't say abrar > Sajid, I said Sajid is not > Abrar.
 
Sajid may not fit in the teams plans for white ball but personally I would love to see him getting a chance.

He is such a character.
 
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