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The turning point in the match against India was Babar Azam's dismissal

msb314

msb314

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Yes - short and wide by Umesh and Babar should have found the boundary instead he hit it straight to Jadeja :facepalm:

At that stage - had we contnued to play at 6 RPO - we could have had a real chance.

So dissapointed...
 
I'd argue turning point in today's match was team selection :) but that would be facetious.

How about dropped catch of Yuvraj?
 
No it wasn't. Hafeez would've killed any momentum we may have had when he came in anyway.

Dropping them catches were criminal.
 
Corridor of Uncertainty said:
I'd argue turning point in today's match was team selection :) but that would be facetious.

How about dropped catch of Yuvraj?
Click to expand...

Yep that was it. We weren't gonna chase this. It would purely be once in a blue moon. 290 was the absolute max because then u can take ur time
 
Corridor of Uncertainty said:
I'd argue turning point in today's match was team selection :) but that would be facetious.

How about dropped catch of Yuvraj?
Click to expand...

Boi said:
No it wasn't. Hafeez would've killed any momentum we may have had when he came in anyway.

Dropping them catches were criminal.
Click to expand...

I would argue - that YS dropped catch would have made no difference to their total.

If anything Pandya would have had more time to bash our bowlers :facepalm: whilst Dhoni and Jadeja could have easily scored big.

Babar's wicket was key.
 
msb314 said:
Yes - short and wide by Umesh and Babar should have found the boundary instead he hit it straight to Jadeja :facepalm:

At that stage - had we contnued to play at 6 RPO - we could have had a real chance.

So dissapointed...
Click to expand...


No, the turning point in this match was Inzamam's team selection.
 
At this stage of his career, Babar has zero impact.
 
Turning point was Mohammad Yousufs retirement..haven't had a match winning batsman since then
 
For a change let's be honest , difference in class is too much between the sides now.

This reminded me of India losing to Pak in Sharjah durIng 90's.
 
Amir injured and Malik run out. Malik looked really looked and at the time, it was still 50-50.
 
There was no turning point. Pakistan is just not good enough. No shame in that.
 
msb314 said:
I would argue - that YS dropped catch would have made no difference to their total.

If anything Pandya would have had more time to bash our bowlers :facepalm: whilst Dhoni and Jadeja could have easily scored big.

Babar's wicket was key.
Click to expand...

India would have scored 280 for sure even if they picked both VK and YS at that stage.
 
Nope, not at all. Pakistan were never in it from beginning to the end.

India is just far to superior in each and every facet of the game.
 
As I said a while ago this tournament is a write off

We wasted the Windes tour to justify people like professor, selfie and Kami and made it worse by backing Azhar and Riaz now. Sarfraz played so well at 4/5 last time he toured England but now bats at 6 for the sake of the professor . Are our openers are in the 80s, Riaz continues to be awful. There are so many problems and the thing that grates me is that they are obvious does that everyone can see bar the people that need to see it the most.

Yes Pakistan cricket is in a low period but we haven't come close to maximising what we have. We look for every excuse to justify the places of failures. We arrogantly act like 90s cricket is the way when even Bangladesh is now better than us .

So what if the youngsters are great what's the harm in trying them when we put up with this filth?

Loose, but loose actually trying to win
 
Last few overs in indias batting simply was the game changer...it completely deflated the Pakistan team..
 
No real turning point. India was always going to fire. India still had Dhoni, Jadhav in the dug out. just be happy Pandya didn't come up early against your spinners lol It would have been carnage.
 
Savak said:
Nope, not at all. Pakistan were never in it from beginning to the end.

India is just far to superior in each and every facet of the game.
Click to expand...

280 off 41 overs is not over and beyond our range by any means.

We had a pathetic approach and the top order really lets us down...

Had Babar played longer - I genuinely believe we would have had a chance.
 
Turning point was when this match was announced at the champions trophy. From that moment on we all feared the inevitable.
 
Hafeez is of zero value for Pak team. Him batting before Malik against India was an absolute blunder. Destroyed the momentum even if there was any..

Tbh, beating Pakistan is not even fun anymore. They are pathetic and don't even try win it. Boring team.
 
AamchiMumbaikar said:
For a change let's be honest , difference in class is too much between the sides now.

This reminded me of India losing to Pak in Sharjah durIng 90's.
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To be honest, gap b/w India and Pakistan was not as big as it is now. The Indian Cricket team is now operating at a first world level whereas the Pakistani team is at a third world level.
 
msb314 said:
280 off 41 overs is not over and beyond our range by any means.

We had a pathetic approach and the top order really lets us down...

Had Babar played longer - I genuinely believe we would have had a chance.
Click to expand...

The way Babar started the longer he played the further away from the target we would have been.

I dont know if you noticed but he only accelarates after getting personal milestones no matter how many balls they take.

Case in point.

Came in with RR AT 7.5 AND played a MAIDEN.

Believe in fairy tales all you like, but West Indies is not the gauge for a player.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
The way Babar started the longer he played the further away from the target we would have been.

I dont know if you noticed but he only accelarates after getting personal milestones no matter how many balls they take.

Case in point.

Came in with RR AT 7.5 AND played a MAIDEN.

Believe in fairy tales all you like, but West Indies is not the gauge for a player.
Click to expand...

I think ppl dont want to admit it, but honestly his career so far indicates he plays selfishly. i get a lot of flack for saying this, but he has filled his boots against west indies and a match losing century against australia.
but how can i blame him, if the ppl he has to look up to are hafeez and malik
 
Dr_Bassim said:
The way Babar started the longer he played the further away from the target we would have been.

I dont know if you noticed but he only accelarates after getting personal milestones no matter how many balls they take.

Case in point.

Came in with RR AT 7.5 AND played a MAIDEN.

Believe in fairy tales all you like, but West Indies is not the gauge for a player.
Click to expand...

I am not so sure.

Yes he played a maiden but I would give the benefit of doubt to his nerves. Also - Azhar at that stage was 36/33 balls.

Also before his dismissal - he hit a boundary and tried to play the same stroke but couldn't clear the point fielder.
 
Babar would have limped his way to 50 at the most and then lost his wicket while trying to up the ante. He hasnt shown that he can hold the game from the scruff of its neck and take his team over the line.

He is too weak to play big shots although his hitting technique is the best in the team.

He is a talented, weak bodied, impact less player with zero attitude, zero killer instinct and zero aggression. Such softies can only play supporting roles at the best.

He should change these things if he can but i'm afraid he is born with these qualities and will stay like this.

I waited and didnt criticise his overall conduct because he was new at the scene but its been 2 years since his debut now, i guess its time to start asking questions. In 2 years you tend to see what a player is made up of. He seems to be just the supporting cast, not the protagonist so far.
 
This pak team had no match winners in either batting or bowling so am not surprised they lost to India. I doubt Pakistan can beat South Africa, so this could be the end of Pakistan's champions trophy journey. Not gona watch any other matches after such a poor performance.
 
There was NO turning point in the match. We were never in it at any stage to begin with. Amir getting injured with 2 more overs to go had zero impact on the already huge total. They still had Dhoni, Jadhav and Jadeja to come.

Our batsmen showed no intent to chase the total down, except Azhar when he was 37 (37) at one stage. Malik was the only other player who showed some but by that time, the match was gone. Pathetic display from start to finish.
 
No.

As much as we like to hype up Babar, he is and never was the solution. Matches are not won by individual performances anymore. Its always a team effort, and this team combination sadly is by far the worst I've seen from Pakistan.

Let's select a team worth rooting for once for a change and then ask such questions.
 
Turning point was when Pakistan showed up for the match, India are too strong man, they are like Aussies of the 2007 World Cup. You guys expect your team to win is like some annoying kid who thinks mustafiz is better than Starc
 
I am satisfied with Babar's inning. He had the right intent. Played a bad shot and paid the price. The main worry is the pretty boy Shehzad and Wahab. These two guys should never play ODI & international T20 cricket. Despite the talk of changing the way Pakistan plays cricket in the last year or so, today's result shows no improvement has been made in this front. Main culprit is backing shoddy players that are ill suited for the modern game and can't make it 2019 WC due to their age.
 
prince77 said:
Amir was soft as hell. He should've shown some ball and bowled his last 2 overs. Cmon man, this was the big game. Really disappointed in Amir being so soft and leaving.
Click to expand...

Generally our players are mentally weak and can't suck some pain up.I Don't know the extent of Amir's injury so can't say much about it.
 
AamchiMumbaikar said:
This reminded me of India losing to Pak in Sharjah durIng 90's.
Click to expand...

You have it all wrong. The current Indian domination is like the 3-0 Indian score against Pakistan in the 1990's WCCs, rather than Pakistan's victory margin of 4-1 over India in the 1990's Sharjah.
 
The turning point was Imad Wasim bowling the 2nd over in overcast conditions.That conveyed a message that Pak was looking to minimise damage rather than go for the kill
 
The turning point of the match was when the ICC scheduled this fixture a year or so ago ... setting up a clash with #1 team with the #8 ranked team .... lulz

:)))
 
It was the Yuvraj drop that changed the game he smashed it after that
 
Turning point was certainly Yuvraj then Kohli being dropped. That cost Pak about 100 runs.
 
Turning point was giving the new ball too imad wasim and when kohli came to the crease rather than bowling a fast bowler they bowled imad wasim
 
Turning point was when u walked on the pitch with 3 freeloaders shezad, hafeez and wahab. Its like yesterdays champions league final with real only playing with 3 defenders 3 midfielders and 1 striker you can not play 11 vs 8 and win unless you have a freak innings.
 
No the turning point was the moment this match was scheduled.

I think it's time some Pakistani fans are a little more honest with themselves and stop citing minor factors here or there for their dreadful performances in ODI cricket. There's multiple issues, the biggest being their general philosophy to ODI batting, where they are stuck in the 1990s.

It's absurd to suggest one dismissal was a turning point when your team loses a rain-affected game by 124 runs.

There's 100 reasons bigger the Babar's dismissal.
 
msb314 said:
Yes - short and wide by Umesh and Babar should have found the boundary instead he hit it straight to Jadeja :facepalm:

At that stage - had we contnued to play at 6 RPO - we could have had a real chance.

So dissapointed...
Click to expand...
You are delusional :facepalm:. Babar Azam is not the match winner you think he is. To become a match winner first he has to stop batting selfishly and put the team interests above his personal interests.
 
thats not accurate at all- Pakistan were never ever going to chase 324 in 48 overs- they have literally never done that before.

The turning point was after 15 over when India were 100 or so without any wickets lost. From that point on India were set to put up a minimum of 280+ which Pakistan could have never chased

Babar being dismissed cheaply only meant that Pakistan would be destroyed from an even bigger margin
 
srh said:
You are delusional :facepalm:. Babar Azam is not the match winner you think he is. To become a match winner first he has to stop batting selfishly and put the team interests above his personal interests.
Click to expand...

:facepalm:

When and where did I say Babar is a big matchwinner?

Had him and Azhar continued to bat longer - we could have had a real chance at chasing this. They were both looking to up the ante at that stage. He a cut a "hit me" ball straight to the fielder that should have gone for 4.
 
coy0607 said:
thats not accurate at all- Pakistan were never ever going to chase 324 in 48 overs- they have literally never done that before.

The turning point was after 15 over when India were 100 or so without any wickets lost. From that point on India were set to put up a minimum of 280+ which Pakistan could have never chased

Babar being dismissed cheaply only meant that Pakistan would be destroyed from an even bigger margin
Click to expand...

We had just chased 341 vs Bangladesh on the warmup game.

Chasing 300+ totals no longer daunt any team including Pakistan.

I think we just had a bad game and the pressure of an India vs Pakistan game got to them
 
msb314 said:
Yes - short and wide by Umesh and Babar should have found the boundary instead he hit it straight to Jadeja :facepalm:

At that stage - had we contnued to play at 6 RPO - we could have had a real chance.

So dissapointed...
Click to expand...

No the turning point in the match was when Pakistan failed to get the 3-4 wickets they needed upfront in the opening 10-15 overs to get them for a manageable total, that didn't happen and from then on 300 was always going to be made.

We know that Pakistan are atrocious at chasing big totals and they didn't really have a prayer against India from then onwards.
 
msb314 said:
We had just chased 341 vs Bangladesh on the warmup game.

Chasing 300+ totals no longer daunt any team including Pakistan.

I think we just had a bad game and the pressure of an India vs Pakistan game got to them
Click to expand...

I think.... You are looking to much at a warm up game.

Chasing 300 isn't easy.

I'll say one fact here which everyone knows but some denies.

Pakistan doesn't know how to build an innings. And this is the essential aspect in chasing 300+

That's why, if rain had come and overs were lessen, the chance of Pakistan winning would have been growing higher and higher.

Except Malik, no one in the pak team has the ability which needs to be there while chasing a big target.

It's easy for Australia, or India because both the teams are filled with batsman who can play defensive or attacking depending upon the time of needs. Pak batsman are one dimensional. Either they will play like a pinch hitter, or they will play the ODIs like a test.

Truth to be told, with this team, I can't see pakistan winning against any top team. Even against Bangladesh, Pakistan may win but you will have to work hard as it isn't a warm up game anymore.
 
Itachi said:
I think.... You are looking to much at a warm up game.

Chasing 300 isn't easy.

I'll say one fact here which everyone knows but some denies.

Pakistan doesn't know how to build an innings. And this is the essential aspect in chasing 300+

That's why, if rain had come and overs were lessen, the chance of Pakistan winning would have been growing higher and higher.

Except Malik, no one in the pak team has the ability which needs to be there while chasing a big target.

It's easy for Australia, or India because both the teams are filled with batsman who can play defensive or attacking depending upon the time of needs. Pak batsman are one dimensional. Either they will play like a pinch hitter, or they will play the ODIs like a test.

Truth to be told, with this team, I can't see pakistan winning against any top team. Even against Bangladesh, Pakistan may win but you will have to work hard as it isn't a warm up game anymore.
Click to expand...

Maybe but every cloud has its silver lining.

Bangla batsman took on our bowling and scored their highest every total so they definitely didn't see it as a warmup game.

We probably considered it as such and hence all the pressure was off - we were ale to chase with a free mind and got the job done!

Batting prowess and strategy does play a a part (as you mentioned) but we often struggle with the mental part and succumb to pressure.

We have far too many bottlers on the team who just cannot handle the big stage and tense moments - unfortunately there is no easy fix for that than just grooming young players and giving them plenty of exposure through foreign tours, PSL etc.
 
msb314 said:
We had just chased 341 vs Bangladesh on the warmup game.

Chasing 300+ totals no longer daunt any team including Pakistan.

I think we just had a bad game and the pressure of an India vs Pakistan game got to them
Click to expand...

who cares about warm up games? they dont count...

chasing 300+ is not a daunting task for most teams, but it ABSOLUTELY is one for Pakistan
 
Dr_Bassim said:
The way Babar started the longer he played the further away from the target we would have been.

I dont know if you noticed but he only accelarates after getting personal milestones no matter how many balls they take.

Case in point.

Came in with RR AT 7.5 AND played a MAIDEN.

Believe in fairy tales all you like, but West Indies is not the gauge for a player.
Click to expand...

Pete Rose said:
I think ppl dont want to admit it, but honestly his career so far indicates he plays selfishly. i get a lot of flack for saying this, but he has filled his boots against west indies and a match losing century against australia.
but how can i blame him, if the ppl he has to look up to are hafeez and malik
Click to expand...

It may look selfish to you but he needs to do his stuff at 3. U are allowed to have 1 player who bides his time. Everybody else needs to bat around him. Problem is we have Azhar hafeez and shezzy around him,
He can average 50 @ 90 and did so in Australia.
Playing t20 for a couple of years will improve him
 
abdullah said:
it may look selfish to you but he needs to do his stuff at 3. U are allowed to have 1 player who bides his time. Everybody else needs to bat around him. Problem is we have azhar hafeez and shezzy around him,
he can average 50 @ 90 and did so in australia.
Playing t20 for a couple of years will improve him
Click to expand...

no one gets a free ride. Its this culture of mediocrity where we compare our rubbish players to each other to pick a winner is what is killing pakistan.
 
LordEddardStark said:
No.

As much as we like to hype up Babar, he is and never was the solution. Matches are not won by individual performances anymore. Its always a team effort, and this team combination sadly is by far the worst I've seen from Pakistan.

Let's select a team worth rooting for once for a change and then ask such questions.
Click to expand...

Exactly hales roy Butler stokes morgan ali will be hit and miss but on average of of them will have a good enough day
 
Pete Rose said:
I think ppl dont want to admit it, but honestly his career so far indicates he plays selfishly. i get a lot of flack for saying this, but he has filled his boots against west indies and a match losing century against australia.
but how can i blame him, if the ppl he has to look up to are hafeez and malik
Click to expand...

Match losing century? U really thought we were gonna chase 370 that day?:uakmal
 
Match was over when India scored 318 in 48 overs. India went into the break knowing that they will win and Pak knew that the game was over by then.

Anything over 250 was impossible for Pak to chase against Indian attack.
 
Abdullah said:
Match losing century? U really thought we were gonna chase 370 that day?:uakmal
Click to expand...

yes till the time sharjeel was playing. in fact, i only felt were competing in that series whenever sharjeel was playing. but yes babar so far in his career shows that he can be the west indies expert, much like hafeez is the sri lanka expert, and malik is the india expert.
 
No turning point Indian team is much better than Pakistan, they are more skillful than this garbage team. If Pakistan is going to continue with shehzad hafeez Azhar and imad there are not going to be any turning points.
 
[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION] no we r behind the rest of the world in batting. Everybody accepts it.
Then u have to think what is the best way of using the resources u have to compete.
Everybody needs a role they are comfortable with, as we don't have a line up where everybody can come in and bash it ala England or Australia. Even India take their time ino the first ten ( but they have the power to make up)
So for us the best we can do is have babar at 3 playing the accumulator role and everybody around him need still bat positively with intent.
We showed some improvement when sharjeel was around and Sarfaraz batted at 5 in 2016 ( u may not have noticed because we were chasing 444 and 370 and 340 lol) but now we are back with Azhar hafeez and shezzy in the top 4

Off course nobody gets a free ride but the guy got out to a full blooded cut shot yesterday and according to neutral commentators he looks a quality player (nasser husain, nick knight, Ian Chappel, Bishop, ponting) so don't worry about what PP says too much.
Off course everybody wants him to improve and I have said many a time he needs to play t20 to improve his ODI batting. And it will
 
Abdullah said:
[MENTION=107807]Pete Rose[/MENTION] no we r behind the rest of the world in batting. Everybody accepts it.
Then u have to think what is the best way of using the resources u have to compete.
Everybody needs a role they are comfortable with, as we don't have a line up where everybody can come in and bash it ala England or Australia. Even India take their time ino the first ten ( but they have the power to make up)
So for us the best we can do is have babar at 3 playing the accumulator role and everybody around him need still bat positively with intent.
We showed some improvement when sharjeel was around and Sarfaraz batted at 5 in 2016 ( u may not have noticed because we were chasing 444 and 370 and 340 lol) but now we are back with Azhar hafeez and shezzy in the top 4

Off course nobody gets a free ride but the guy got out to a full blooded cut shot yesterday and according to neutral commentators he looks a quality player (nasser husain, nick knight, Ian Chappel, Bishop, ponting) so don't worry about what PP says too much.
Off course everybody wants him to improve and I have said many a time he needs to play t20 to improve his ODI batting. And it will
Click to expand...

just saying that every innings he starts its usually a strike rate of 30 after the first 15 deliveries. I want these other players dropped because they are normalizing this kind of batting.
 
Pete Rose said:
yes till the time sharjeel was playing. in fact, i only felt were competing in that series whenever sharjeel was playing. but yes babar so far in his career shows that he can be the west indies expert, much like hafeez is the sri lanka expert, and malik is the india expert.
Click to expand...

Let me tell u something so u can keep it a lesson for the future. U need 2 sharjeels to chase 370 in this pak line up
 
adit_sh said:
India would have scored 280 for sure even if they picked both VK and YS at that stage.
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280 would not have been nearly as hard to chase as 320. That's 40 runs over 48 overs, which would have dropped the required rate from 6.67 to 5.83. At that point all Pakistan has to do is rotate strike and play a normal game. Never mind how it would have recalculated after the D/L method-the target could have arguably dropped with India 5 down instead of 3 down.
 
Pete Rose said:
just saying that every innings he starts its usually a strike rate of 30 after the first 15 deliveries. I want these other players dropped because they are normalizing this kind of batting.
Click to expand...

That's not true . Even yesterday he made 8 off 12.
And anyway , that's what I am saying about roles, 1 person is allowed to take slightly more time because they are not allowed to give their wicket away. Everybody else needs to play more fearlessly
 
It's not only Babar Azam, Pakistan was not looking good since beginning giving away easy runs, not bowling full but back of the length knowing that one side of the boundary was short. The main reason for the loss was our club level fielding and WAHAB riaz (I hope his career is ended now). Icing on cake was when we gifted huge score in last 8 over
 
Dr_Bassim said:
The way Babar started the longer he played the further away from the target we would have been.

I dont know if you noticed but he only accelarates after getting personal milestones no matter how many balls they take.

Case in point.

Came in with RR AT 7.5 AND played a MAIDEN.

Believe in fairy tales all you like, but West Indies is not the gauge for a player.
Click to expand...

Ch ch ch.
What is Williamson doing 7 off 25.
How dare he
LOL. It's not a problem actually.
 
There was no turning point ever in the match IMO. Match was not close enough to have any turning point, it was one sided affair
Only turning point you can say is Rohits runout, if he didnt depart sooner then may be score wouldn't be so big.
 
zn426 said:
280 would not have been nearly as hard to chase as 320. That's 40 runs over 48 overs, which would have dropped the required rate from 6.67 to 5.83. At that point all Pakistan has to do is rotate strike and play a normal game. Never mind how it would have recalculated after the D/L method-the target could have arguably dropped with India 5 down instead of 3 down.
Click to expand...

you missed the point DL added just 5 runs in the end because India was going at DL rate. In any case you would be chasing 6+ from word go. However the other point is you never know Dhoni, Jadeja and Pandya may have attacked as well to reach 320
 
Others have addressed the turning point topic, and I agree with them -- there was nothing to turn! This was a one-way street all along!

On Babar Azam, I still don't understand the Pakistani hype about him. I watched him during the Test series against Aus and now in an ODI against India. Looks like another tier 3 batsman to me. Getting to tier 2 would be his best possible upside. What am I missing?
 
Dr_Bassim said:
And it was a poor innings by Williamson because NZ fell way short.
Click to expand...

Again u don't appreciate how much time there is in am ODI not many people do.
NZ were EXACTLY where they wanted to be after 25 overs - 134-2.
What went wrong was after that, not before.
By no means a poor knock by Williamson.
 
English August said:
Others have addressed the turning point topic, and I agree with them -- there was nothing to turn! This was a one-way street all along!

On Babar Azam, I still don't understand the Pakistani hype about him. I watched him during the Test series against Aus and now in an ODI against India. Looks like another tier 3 batsman to me. Getting to tier 2 would be his best possible upside. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Your missing a young guy averaging 56 at 90 SR in Australia
73 avg at 92 in NZ
Good stats in UAE and WI
Only in England does he average 30.ish
This is not a bad start. He does need to improve his range where t2p will help. But at the moment he is the guy the rest of the team need to bat around.
 
[MENTION=43242]Dr_Bassim[/MENTION]

SL had 22 off 7 overs.
Proving again there is a lot of time in ODI cricket to respect the good balls and build an innings
 
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