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There are two clubs in the cricket world these days

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czar

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Big Boys Club : Australia, England, India, SA

Amateur Club : NZ, Pakistan, SL, WI

Before the start of any tournament, the teams from the Big Boys Club are outright favorites and an Amateur Club Side defeating any of the Big Boys is perceived as an upset.

This is also one of the reasons why most of the matches between the Top 8 Sides are so one-sided these days.
 
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NZ not in amateur club for sure. They are Big Boys. Bangla between Big Boys and amateur.
 
SameerK said:
I don't think New Zealand are in the "Amateur Club".
Click to expand...

For Odis there is room for discussion but as far as Tests are concerned they are just another average team.

Don't see them Winnings Tests at home with same domination like rest of the other teams do, leave alone performing overseas.
 
czar said:
For Odis there is room for discussion but as far as Tests are concerned they are just another average team.

Don't see them Winnings Tests at home with same domination like rest of the other teams do, leave alone performing overseas.
Click to expand...

lol what, they have smashed all the asian teams at home, drawn in uae, drawn in england
 
Lots of Bits and pieces players in NZ. Doesn't instill the same confidence of a strong team. If they are a Big team, then they are the easiest to defeat among the top ones.
 
geraltofrivia said:
NZ not in amateur club for sure. They are Big Boys. Bangla between Big Boys and amateur.
Click to expand...

Bangladesh are still amateur. Yesterday's performance against Australia showed they are on the levels of Sri Lanka but a tad better. Still a very long way for Bangladesh to go to even get in between.
 
hafeezrocks said:
Lots of Bits and pieces players in NZ. Doesn't instill the same confidence of a strong team. If they are a Big team, then they are the easiest to defeat among the top ones.
Click to expand...

Yes. Not as strong as the others but they have a potential ATG in Williamson and some real good players in Boult, Guptill, Taylor etc. Other players are a bit bits and pieces but they generally get the job done.

They constantly will defeat the lower teams and they do.
 
SameerK said:
Bangladesh are still amateur. Yesterday's performance against Australia showed they are on the levels of Sri Lanka but a tad better. Still a very long way for Bangladesh to go to even get in between.
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Not just one match. They won the three ODI series against Pak, Ind, SA. Drew in SL. So they are better than Pak, SL, WI.
 
Jatt_bonebreaker said:
for me england is not in big boys club and NZ is better of than amateur clunb
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Lol, We Indians should be last one to be saying such things. They have always given us tough fight bar last test series.

On topic, Nz is definitely among top flight. They were finalist in last worldcup. ***
They haven't done anything which warrant them to be regulated to amateurs.
 
aniket1911 said:
Lol, We Indians should be last one to be saying such things. They have always given us tough fight bar last test series.

On topic, Nz is definitely among top flight. They were finalist in last worldcup. ***
They haven't done anything which warrant them to be regulated to amateurs.
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England have always been Sh!t against us in the odis, they have wood over us in the test format but we own england for fun in the odis, don't confuse the formats
 
ToeCrusher2 said:
England have always been Sh!t against us in the odis, they have wood over us in the test format but we own england for fun in the odis, don't confuse the formats
Click to expand...

They gave us good fight in last ODI series we played and it sure wasn't one sided.

Moreover, the thread is about overall performance and not just LOIs.
 
aniket1911 said:
They gave us good fight in last ODI series we played and it sure wasn't one sided.

Moreover, the thread is about overall performance and not just LOIs.
Click to expand...

That was the first time they gave us a fight in odis and still lost and this was a their best odi team in years, can't really rate a team whom we beat for fun :afridi1

Also I was correcting you on the specific comment about why we Indians should be the last one, I was not commenting on overrall performance or the thread, we Indians should be the first ones to ridicule the English odi team :yk
 
Lol wait . Are people talking about Test and t20 cricket too ??
Big boys england routinely get thrashed in the uae while pakistan drew in england . In t20s india gets smashed by the westindies while we all know the result in tests depending on the conditions.
It is only true for ODI cricket .Laughable how people cant differentiate between different formats and personell
 
ToeCrusher2 said:
That was the first time they gave us a fight in odis and still lost and this was a their best odi team in years, can't really rate a team whom we beat for fun :afridi1

Also I was correcting you on the specific comment about why we Indians should be the last one, I was not commenting on overrall performance or the thread, we Indians should be the first ones to ridicule the English odi team :yk
Click to expand...

Fair enough, but we also haven't played enough against this resurgent English side with renaissance brutal hitting. If we talk about solely on LOIs then we have gave them their worst memories (epic CT choke job :uakmal) but overall they have given us equally wrose memories like 2013 series and losing to them at home.
 
ethan hunt said:
Lol wait . Are people talking about Test and t20 cricket too ??
Big boys england routinely get thrashed in the uae while pakistan drew in england . In t20s india gets smashed by the westindies while we all know the result in tests depending on the conditions.
It is only true for ODI cricket .Laughable how people cant differentiate between different formats and personell
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LOL. Congrats on beating 2nd grade WI teams where the main players are playing IPL. We saw what happened to Pak in WT20 2014.

Plus post MisYou Pak is over in tests. They lost 0-2 in NZ and 0-3 in Oz with them. England despite everything have a better W/L ratio in tests than Pakistan.

Tests
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2012;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team
 
Big Boys Club : Australia, England, India, SA

Doing OK!: NZ, BD

Amateur Club : SL, WI

Minnows: Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
 
geraltofrivia said:
LOL. Congrats on beating 2nd grade WI teams where the main players are playing IPL. We saw what happened to Pak in WT20 2014.

Plus post MisYou Pak is over in tests. They lost 0-2 in NZ and 0-3 in Oz with them. England despite everything have a better W/L ratio in tests than Pakistan.

Tests
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...2012;spanval1=span;template=results;type=team
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We will see how pakistan goes without misbah and younis wont we ??
Pakistan t20 team is pretty decent if not good . They have thrashed the t20 finalists eng and westindies recently .your lot lost to a similar westindies team . Nothing to do with the Ipl.
India dont win overseas tests with Dhoni and kohli . At worse pak wont do it without misbah and younis .
A victory against a bad pakistan odi side and everyone seems to have lost it .
 
ethan hunt said:
Lol wait . Are people talking about Test and t20 cricket too ??
Big boys england routinely get thrashed in the uae while pakistan drew in england . In t20s india gets smashed by the westindies while we all know the result in tests depending on the conditions.
It is only true for ODI cricket .Laughable how people cant differentiate between different formats and personell
Click to expand...

Well Pakistan, Bangladesh and WI are low in test Rankings too. T20 is least significant format so being good in that (only WI) doesn't count much. While, I agree Pakistan would have been in top tier after England series but after Nz, Aus tour and losing a test to minnow like WI at home and away seriously puts them back, retirement of legends like Younis and misbah doesn't help either. So overall Pakistan being in lower tier is not entirely ridiculous if not justified.
 
We should be in the Kindergarden Club with Netherlands, Namibia and Papa New Guinea. That is our level. Inshallah Mashallah boys played well.
 
ToeCrusher2 said:
Fixed :asif
Click to expand...

Mustafiz can win games with ball, Tamim almost scored a 100 vs Aussies the other day and Shakib can be a dangerous player on his day as well. Rest of BD players give it all on the field (unlike our lot).

WI's top order can score 250+ vs most sides.

We are competing with Afghans and are a league below WI.
 
ethan hunt said:
We will see how pakistan goes without misbah and younis wont we ??
Pakistan t20 team is pretty decent if not good . They have thrashed the t20 finalists eng and westindies recently .your lot lost to a similar westindies team . Nothing to do with the Ipl.
India dont win overseas tests with Dhoni and kohli . At worse pak wont do it without misbah and younis .
A victory against a bad pakistan odi side and everyone seems to have lost it .
Click to expand...

The WI teams we lost to had Gayle, Russell etc. And India just won an overseas series with WI without dropping any tests. And won in SL. Pak lost 3-4 consecutive series in SL before finally winning in 2015.

A victory against a bad pakistan odi side and everyone seems to have lost it - I am surprised you recovered so fast.

And Pakistan's T20 team isn't good. They had first round exits in the last two T20 WCs.
 
OP is mostly right when it come to limited overs. barring the NZ howler.
And really LOL at anyone trying to make T20 form a thing.
 
aniket1911 said:
Well Pakistan, Bangladesh and WI are low in test Rankings too. T20 is least significant format so being good in that (only WI) doesn't count much. While, I agree Pakistan would have been in top tier after England series but after Nz, Aus tour and losing a test to minnow like WI at home and away seriously puts them back, retirement of legends like Younis and misbah doesn't help either. So overall Pakistan being in lower tier is not entirely ridiculous if not justified.
Click to expand...

They did win the series in the carribean though . Westindies are not completely terrible at home ask England.
Pakistan were number 1 a few months back and than the overseas tests happened . Every team struggles to win overseas you should know that better than most as an indian fan.. Yes pakistan were whitewashed in australia but the australians didnt even compete in the UAE . Pakistan are yet to lose a test series since they started playing in the UAE . The only team that hasnt . Thats pretty decent for an amateur team.
 
geraltofrivia said:
The WI teams we lost to had Gayle, Russell etc. And India just won an overseas series with WI without dropping any tests. And won in SL. Pak lost 3-4 consecutive series in SL before finally winning in 2015.

A victory against a bad pakistan odi side and everyone seems to have lost it - I am surprised you recovered so fast.

And Pakistan's T20 team isn't good. They had first round exits in the last two T20 WCs.
Click to expand...

Well since the OP doesnt want to us to talk about t20s i wont but i didnt know gayle was playing in florida .
I remember johnson charles and lewis smashing shami and co . Anyways lets not discuss that format .

You won in srilanka and westindies ?? Congrats so did pakistan .Yes pakistan dropped a test in the westindies but india dropped 3 in England so dont know what you are on about.
 
ethan hunt said:
They did win the series in the carribean though . Westindies are not completely terrible at home ask England.
Pakistan were number 1 a few months back and than the overseas tests happened . Every team struggles to win overseas you should know that better than most as an indian fan.. Yes pakistan were whitewashed in australia but the australians didnt even compete in the UAE . Pakistan are yet to lose a test series since they started playing in the UAE . The only team that hasnt . Thats pretty decent for an amateur team.
Click to expand...

Not sure if srs. Pakistan were whitewashed but Australians didnt compete? What does it matter? And PAk didn't compete either.

Plus Pakistan has drawn lots of series at home - couldnt defeat SA, SL, NZ etc. And no team gets whitewashed like Pak away. Their away incompetence is on another level. Whitewashes in SA, NZ, SL and Oz in the last 4 years plus couldnt even defeat Zim.
 
ethan hunt said:
Well since the OP doesnt want to us to talk about t20s i wont but i didnt know gayle was playing in florida .
I remember johnson charles and lewis smashing shami and co . Anyways lets not discuss that format .

You won in srilanka and westindies ?? Congrats so did pakistan .Yes pakistan dropped a test in the westindies but india dropped 3 in England so dont know what you are on about.
Click to expand...

Yeah and Pakistan dropped 2 in England too. Plus all in SA, NZ, Oz too. Plus one in Zim too.

MisYou is gone. Pak test cricket is finished. And Pak won in SL after three series of embarrassments.
 
geraltofrivia said:
Yeah and Pakistan dropped 2 in England too. Plus all in SA, NZ, Oz too. Plus one in Zim too.

MisYou is gone. Pak test cricket is finished. And Pak won in SL after three series of embarrassments.
Click to expand...

Yes pakistan dropped 2 series in england but india were super competitive over their last two trips to england beating england by an innings every time . Even Michael vaughan was in awe of India.
India won every match they played in sa , nz oz if every means 0.
Yes Misyou is gone and pakistan cricket is finished .
Thanks for coming
 
ethan hunt said:
Yes pakistan dropped 2 series in england but india were super competitive over their last two trips to england beating england by an innings every time . Even Michael vaughan was in awe of India.
India won every match they played in sa , nz oz if every means 0.
Yes Misyou is gone and pakistan cricket is finished .
Thanks for coming
Click to expand...

India have actually won a series in England in the last decade. Pakistan hasn't in 20+ years.

If you are considering last two trips (and not last three conveniently as India had won that) Pakistan lost pretty badly in their second last tour to England (among other things).

India didn't win every match but they didn't lose every like Pakistan too. Also no losses to Zim.

Pakistan has a worse away record than India in the past 5 years. India has second best after SA.

Although Pak has a home win % of infinite as the denominator is 0.
 
Dont see the point of this thread. Its very obvious.
 
ethan hunt said:
They did win the series in the carribean though . Westindies are not completely terrible at home ask England.
Pakistan were number 1 a few months back and than the overseas tests happened . Every team struggles to win overseas you should know that better than most as an indian fan.. Yes pakistan were whitewashed in australia but the australians didnt even compete in the UAE . Pakistan are yet to lose a test series since they started playing in the UAE . The only team that hasnt . Thats pretty decent for an amateur team.
Click to expand...

1. West Indies without even their main players is no less than minnow, regardless of how you try to cut it.

2. Difference is most team atleast draw the matches and Pakistan haven't been able to do that.

3. Pakistan doesn't have absolute dominance at home either like top 4 teams. Sure they haven't lost test series but they haven't won all of them at home either. Which would have been fine had they not lost to WI at home last year. People don't understand how bad it is to lose to what? no. 8/9 side in your own backyard.

4. Test match performance is not the only format we are talking about but overall which mainly constitute ODI and tests. In isolation Pakistan test side isn't bad at all but they aren't that good either.

As I said, it isn't entirely ridiculous to put Pakistan in lower tier overall.
 
Any team with Southee, Williamson, Boult, Guptill and Anderson cannot be an amateur team. They are all match winners. Its just that the consistency is lacking.

I would place them between Big boys and Amateurs.
 
geraltofrivia said:
India have actually won a series in England in the last decade. Pakistan hasn't in 20+ years.

If you are considering last two trips (and not last three conveniently as India had won that) Pakistan lost pretty badly in their second last tour to England (among other things).

India didn't win every match but they didn't lose every like Pakistan too. Also no losses to Zim.

Pakistan has a worse away record than India in the past 5 years. India has second best after SA.

Although Pak has a home win % of infinite as the denominator is 0.
Click to expand...

Ummm becauee this thread is about recent results not 20 plus years or even further back when india were a poor test team .
Yes you are right when you say that india didnt win every match . Infact they didnt win any match in the countties where pakistan didnt..
My point is that the result of test series depends on the conditions and not on one team being super strong as the OP says .
Ofcourse sometimes teams compete better in certain places for example Australia competed very well in india as opposed to getting completely thrashed like they did in the UAE.
 
Yes, but that has always been the case between the top 4-5 sides and the last 4 sides.

That's why there are rankings, genius.
 
ethan hunt said:
Ummm becauee this thread is about recent results not 20 plus years or even further back when india were a poor test team .
Yes you are right when you say that india didnt win every match . Infact they didnt win any match in the countties where pakistan didnt..
My point is that the result of test series depends on the conditions and not on one team being super strong as the OP says .
Ofcourse sometimes teams compete better in certain places for example Australia competed very well in india as opposed to getting completely thrashed like they did in the UAE.
Click to expand...

Yeah a completely separate team - one that had just whitewashed Pakistan straight for the fourth time. And they lost to India. The Mitchell Johnson - Clarke team was blanked 0-4 in India too.

And if it was recent results why pull up 2011 and not 2007. Seems arbitrary and agenda-driven (which it is).

I admire your resilience. It takes a lot of guts (or delusion) to show this false facade and bravado after yesterday's events. Maybe this is your way of healing. If so lage raho bhai. After tomorrow's match with SA and India's match against SL more healing will be required.
 
Hawkeye said:
Yes, but that has always been the case between the top 4-5 sides and the last 4 sides.

That's why there are rankings, genius.
Click to expand...

In the early-mid 2000s wasn't so. Oz was definitely no 1 but the other ones were good too.
 
New Zealand are in the big boys club Eng,Aus,SA,Ind,NZ are big boys

Pak,WI,Sri,Bang(still,will improve in future) are all in the amature clubs
 
czar said:
Big Boys Club : Australia, England, India, SA

Amateur Club : NZ, Pakistan, SL, WI

Before the start of any tournament, the teams from the Big Boys Club are outright favorites and an Amateur Club Side defeating any of the Big Boys is perceived as an upset.

This is also one of the reasons why most of the matches between the Top 8 Sides are so one-sided these days.
Click to expand...

Man's club: Aus,SA,Eng,Ind,NZ
Teenager club: BD (because they are favourite against any team at home and will fight overseas if given more opportunities)
Toddler club: Pak,WI,SL,Afg,Zim
 
This thread is going to come back and bite us.

Everyone knows tier-1 and tier-2 but you don't have to rub it in with the nomenclature.
 
Top Tier
---------
Australia
India
South Africa
New Zealand

Bottom Tier
--------------
West Indies
Sri Lanka
Pakistan
Bangladesh

England are currently in the process of trying to fight their way out of the Bottom Tier into the Top Tier IMO.
 
WhenSultansBowled said:
Big Boys Club : Australia, England, India, SA

Doing OK!: NZ, BD

Amateur Club : SL, WI

Minnows: Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
Click to expand...

:))

Think with your head and not with your hurt buddy.

I know you're hurt after Sunday's defeat, but when you make such emotional-driven posts you lose a lot/all credibility
 
So England becomes the first team to qualify for the Semis and they have qualified as a group Topper.

And it has been a thumping win over NZ and justifies why NZ aren't cut out for battles with biggest teams.

NZ are capable of surprising the best teams on their day but they lack the consistency to do it due to their team being filled up with too many bits and pieces players.

Apart from one KW and semi Decent Guptill along with a couple of bowlers there is hardly any reliable player in the team. Taylor has been poor for quite a long time and Middle Order is full of flashy hit and miss batters like Anderson, Neesham and Santner.
 
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czar said:
So England becomes the first team to qualify for the Semis and they have qualified as a group Topper.

And it has been a thumping win over NZ and justifies why NZ aren't cut out for battles with biggest teams.

NZ are capable of surprising the best teams on their day but they lack the consistency to do it due to their team being filled up with too many bits and pieces players.

Apart from one KW and semi Decent Guptill along with a couple of bowlers there is hardly any reliable player in the team. Taylor has been poor for quite a long time and Middle Order is full of flashy hit and miss batters like Anderson, Neesham and Santner.
Click to expand...

BD can have confidence to defeat NZ as they actually need 5 wickets max,others are actually passengers in NZ team
 
New Zealand since they lost B Maccullum and Vettori are not the same unit they were, but they will still pile on 400 on their day
 
Interesting thread. People are forgetting Australia lost the test series to Sri Lanka 3-0. New Zealand are very strong at home. They have regressed for sure since the world cup. Australia's middle order has so many question marks. I know Bangladesh scored less than 200 against them the other day, but all the batsman from the other end failed, and that is rare these days for Bangladesh now.

I'd say there's a gulf between Australia, India, England, South Africa, and the rest of the sides.
 
TalhaSyed said:
Top Tier
---------
Australia
India
South Africa
New Zealand

Bottom Tier
--------------
West Indies
Sri Lanka
Pakistan
Bangladesh

England are currently in the process of trying to fight their way out of the Bottom Tier into the Top Tier IMO.
Click to expand...

That's the best grouping of this thread - but I'll replace Kiwis with Poms. Hardly teams from bottom tier will win series against top tier; but within tier each group should be competitive.
 
Newz is definitley not top tier. They can be decent kn their day . But not a team which opposition fear . Definitely not !!!
 
Big Boys Club: Rating above 110(SA, AUS, IND, ENG, NZ)

Middle Ground: Rating between 100-109(none)

Amateur Club: Rating between 85-99(BD, SL,PAK)

WI Club: Rating below 85

Minnows: Rating below 70(AFG, IRE, Zim, etc)
 
Yea England & NZ are the hardest ones to place IMO.

It also gets tricky when you take 'playing conditions' into account. Teams from the top tier all of a suden drop to the bottom tier in the conditions which dont suit them e.g. Aus and Eng playing in UAE or SL
 
MMHS said:
That's the best grouping of this thread - but I'll replace Kiwis with Poms. Hardly teams from bottom tier will win series against top tier; but within tier each group should be competitive.
Click to expand...

Sorry for some reason didn't quote you in my below response below:

TalhaSyed said:
Yea England & NZ are the hardest ones to place IMO.

It also gets tricky when you take 'playing conditions' into account. Teams from the top tier all of a suden drop to the bottom tier in the conditions which dont suit them e.g. Aus and Eng playing in UAE or SL
Click to expand...
 
It must be said, in an icc events only two big boys Aus and Ind. rest are more or less at same level on their day anyone can beat anyone.

SA is not very good in a pressure situation. They even lost to BD in 2007 WC, and got knocked out by even NZ in 2015.
 
there are two clubs of fans. i think i know which camp OP belongs to.. hehe
 
BDfanforever said:
It must be said, in an icc events only two big boys Aus and Ind. rest are more or less at same level on their day anyone can beat anyone.

SA is not very good in a pressure situation. They even lost to BD in 2007 WC, and got knocked out by even NZ in 2015.
Click to expand...

Agree about Australia and India if you consider only ICC tournaments, even though Australia is five times more likely to succeed in pressure situations than India but India is decent too.

SA is definitely a strong team with a lot of great players but under pressure they can even lose to worst of the minnows in a crucial match. Very very unreliable when the going gets tough.
 
captain crook said:
Pakistan team is showing us new depths every day.. how the mighty have fallen!

:ik :jm :inzi :wasim :waqar


:yk3:afridi1:akhtar:asif :misbah


:hafeez2 :malik :wahab :ma:uak:rahat1
Click to expand...

you need
Abdul razzaq instead of misbah
and M.Yousaf instead of Younis in second tier

misbah and younis belong to bottom tier in ODI
 
RSA will be comepeting with SL, BD, PAK, and WI when Amla, AB, Faf retires.

Also, two of their best talent is technically not South African.
 
did a very basic cumulative weighted average ranking analysis considering all three formats and the ranking comes out as

india
south africa
australia
england

new zealand
pakistan
sri lanka
west indies
bangladesh

afghanistan
zimbabwe

pretty accurate how the global picture is. bangladesh has two mediocre and poor formats in test and t20. they may be ranked number 6 in odis at the moment but that's about it.
 
Lol . What a thread .
You would think Indian fans would be more humble considering they have historically been one of the poorer teams .
Amazing from Lanka and Pak .
 
Lol Another bad day for one of the Big Boys.

Looks like one of the Big Boys are are likely to head home while one amateur team is going to the Semis.
 
This thread has collectively jinxed all the big boys :yk, Pak beat SA, lanka beat India and it seems bangladesh might beat nz :afridi1 congrats OP :salute
 
Aus, Eng, Saffers and India are the elite ODI sides. Then Bangladesh and NZ. Lanka, Pak and WI a tier down. Zim and Afghan associate level.
 
ToeCrusher2 said:
This thread has collectively jinxed all the big boys :yk, Pak beat SA, lanka beat India and it seems bangladesh might beat nz :afridi1 congrats OP :salute
Click to expand...

True, let's strategically shift India in the lower tier before Sunday then. :)))
 
Our W/L record against big boy England:

Three series, Pak won seven, big boy won two.

Our W/L record vs big boy Australia:

Two series, a whitewash for each side but we were more competitive than they were.
 
I dont know why big boys like India and Australia start taking lollipops when they go into foreign conditions. 😂😂😂
 
Other funny thing about big boys is that when they are at home they act like they have gone pretty big by looking in the mirror but once they are outside the home they chicken out by realizing they are still not big enough! 😜
 
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