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"There is a misconception that India are good at playing spin": Simon Doull

FearlessRoar

FearlessRoar

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Simon Doull while speaking on local Indian broadcast media during 2nd Test between India and New Zealand:

"There is a misconception that India are good at playing spin."

"They are like everyone else."

"Gone are the days of Sachin, Ganguly, or Dravid. Now, they are the same as everyone else. As soon as a good spinner comes in, they are in trouble."

Reckoning speaking facts, do you agree with him?
 
Yea currently our players are not so great against Spinners .

But when they( Indian) are down than anyone can say anything.

Has he forget that india won 18 consecutive series before this one without sachin, dravid and Laxman etc .
 
They are good but not great.

In older era's Indians had terrific players against spin. Like of Murali and Warne were thrashed big time on turning tracks. If comparing to that, they are not good. Otherwise they are good. Being good hardly means that opposition will never win against you. They are playing to win as well and not just fillers.
 
India is still better against spin than most countries. You cannot expect the graph to be same every time.
 
Buffet said:
They are good but not great.

In older era's Indians had terrific players against spin. Like of Murali and Warne were thrashed big time on turning tracks. If comparing to that, they are not good. Otherwise they are good. Being good hardly means that opposition will never win against you. They are playing to win as well and not just fillers.
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Yes you are right , at some point of time opposition will overcome you , they also come prepared looking to win, also with IPL they getting more exposure to India pitches and Indian spinners , so they looking to improve.
 
Justcrazy said:
Yes you are right , at some point of time opposition will overcome you , they also come prepared looking to win, also with IPL they getting more exposure to India pitches and Indian spinners , so they looking to improve.
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Yah, reminds me an argument by one poster earlier that Aus has been poor at home in th last 6-8 years beacause they lost to India. That's silly, if you are beating every other team and lost to one team then that does not make you poor. Aus is a very strong team at home.

Similarly, this may be the first series loss for India at home after 12 years. Last team was Eng in 2012. Credit goes to Eng and if it happens here then NZ here. Conclusions after 12 years of potential series loss can't be that India is not good against spin. They are not great for sure, but collectively they are good against spin. It should be always seen in relative terms by comparing to peer group and not just by comparing to best batting unit in history against spin. Everyone will fall short by that standards.
 
There are a lot of misconceptions about Indian cricket. Apart from Pant, every single Indian cricketer is overrated. Don’t get me wrong - a lot of them are very good, but not as good as they are made out to be.
 
Without reading the full context, I will confirm the headline. Current generation of Indian batters are terrible against spin.
 
Buffet said:
They are good but not great.

In older era's Indians had terrific players against spin. Like of Murali and Warne were thrashed big time on turning tracks. If comparing to that, they are not good. Otherwise they are good. Being good hardly means that opposition will never win against you. They are playing to win as well and not just fillers.
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Nowadays even young spinners like Wellalage are enough for India.
 
India's batting record against Spin hasn't been all that great. The difference is that their bowling attack i.e. pace, spin has been so good, they have out bowled the opposition to such an extent that they have not needed to score too much with the bat.

To be fair, Indian pitches are usually fast pacy bouncy rank turners and it is a huge challenge to bat consistently well on these pitches.
 
Our spin playing abilities have been on wane for quite a few years. Kohli especially has become so bad against spin. He was the one who handled peak Ajmal so well. Now the same Ajmal will eat him alive.
 
Doull is right.

India seem weak against good quality spin. It is surprising considering India are known for dustbowl pitches and having good spinners.
 
I would like to pull Kohli's stats in test cricket since 2020. He has been aweful in this format for so long and if you take out the 186 he scored against Australia on a super dead pitch, his stats will be even worse.

I bet Rohit has better stats for the same time period.
 
Is that they are downfall coming , struggled against Bangladesh too.
Rohit and Kohli not gonna stick around , KL Rahul doesn’t seem carry forward the baton from RoKo
 
ask_analyse_act said:
Is that they are downfall coming , struggled against Bangladesh too.
Rohit and Kohli not gonna stick around , KL Rahul doesn’t seem carry forward the baton from RoKo
Click to expand...
Nay, we got players to cover this , downfall is due to not pushing out seniors slowly , we still have Jaiswal, pant , Gill, safaraz, Jurel, kuldeep, sundar ,Patel ,bumrah .
 
Savak said:
India's batting record against Spin hasn't been all that great. The difference is that their bowling attack i.e. pace, spin has been so good, they have out bowled the opposition to such an extent that they have not needed to score too much with the bat.

To be fair, Indian pitches are usually fast pacy bouncy rank turners and it is a huge challenge to bat consistently well on these pitches.
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You are correct about Indian bowling being very good, but we can see how visiting spinners have done since India loss against Eng. India batting is nowhere close to what they had in 90s against spin, but good enough otherwise we should have seen lots of spinners with great record in India on the same fast pacy bouncy rank turners.

All spinners with 15 plus wickets in India since 2013.

1729873125363.png
 
Devadwal said:
Yea currently our players are not so great against Spinners .

But when they( Indian) are down than anyone can say anything.

Has he forget that india won 18 consecutive series before this one without sachin, dravid and Laxman etc .
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I guess his point is that they had better spinners.
 
Doull is right. Let’s not forget the last 3-4 years the only reason we were winning is because of runs from Pant and the spin all rounders. The top order has been poor from quite a long time now. Pujara and Kohli were superb back in 2016-17 but it has gone south since then.
 
Ab Fan said:
Doull is right. Let’s not forget the last 3-4 years the only reason we were winning is because of runs from Pant and the spin all rounders. The top order has been poor from quite a long time now. Pujara and Kohli were superb back in 2016-17 but it has gone south since then.
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India batting has struggled over all and lower order has bailed them out. Be any kind of pitch on any venue. That has been the trend. Conclusion can be - India are not good at batting and that's a better conclusion.

If Indian top order was piling runs in all surfaces and struggled agsint spin then we can say that hey they are good over all but sturggle against spin now a days.
 
Buffet said:
India batting has struggled over all and lower order has bailed them out. Be any kind of pitch on any venue. That has been the trend. Conclusion can be - India are not good at batting and that's a better conclusion.

If Indian top order was piling runs in all surfaces and struggled agsint spin then we can say that hey they are good over all but sturggle against spin now a days.
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On flat pitches, it is good.
 
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India performs better on fast bouncy tracks rather than on spin friendly ones which is why their performance on Australian pitches is superior better compared to other Asian teams.
 
Definitely not like what it was 20-30 years back (a time when WK Mongia batted for 11 hours on a Delhi dust bowl against Warne, Collins & McEntyre), but still I belive they are among the best - in fact their current opponents are probably among top as well hence it’s nullified. I can safely say three WKs of 90s - Mongia, Moin & Kalu can teach modern batting greats few tips about batting against spin.

The fact is that spin playing skill is at its lowest point these days that I have seen live or archived- and I have seen lot, lot I mean lot. From black & white footage of Neil Hervey playing Jim Laker on a wet wicket to YK driving inside out on a 5th day track ….. to modern greats Root playing spin or Kohli trying to flick a full toss through midwicket.

Having said that, India’s spin playing capacity or lack of it has absolutely nothing to do with their home dominance. The sole reason India is almost unbeatable at home is their No. 6 & 7. Two players, who has taken probably 500+ wickets in India at <20 average, with an economy under 2.5 and a SR of 5+ wickets/Test/bowler - that’s actually matching peak Marshall of mid to late 80s & two of them.

Add to that, Jadeja probably averages over 40 at home & Ashwin over 30 - that’s with bat and most of the time, they make their runs count (because hardly India at home needs runs from their bottom half over 2 innings). This batting contribution is equally damaging because often they add 75-100 crucial runs to the par and for a dominant side that’s a Jack pot. I always say that, for that Australian side, Gilchrist was the ultimate game changer for that he used to add 100+ with last 3/4 wickets in no time from a par situation.

One Imran almost made PAK the dominant force in 1980s - for last 10-12 years, India had couple of Imranisque all-rounders at 6-8, and that was the killer. Once these two fades away, I see India struggling at home big time - signs are obvious also, after a long time this is the first time I see Jadeja & Ashwin are failing to live at usual par, and India is facing 0-2 against a Kiwi side without Will.
 
when the shot selection is as poor as kohli and pant today, you cant really comment on technique. one thing that there is no doubt of is that compared to twenty years ago, these batsmen are inferior players of spin, however the quality of spin bowlers has decreased signficantly too.

got to agree with @MMHS tho, jadeja and ashwin is like playing home games with an extra player, they provide a massive advantage and will be irreplaceable in the long run.
 
Can't compare with spinners and spin play from 30 years ago.

DRS has changed the game completely. And spinners are bowling a lot quicker and at the stumps much more consistently with batters forced to play with bat in front of pad.
 
Simon Doull, former New Zealand pacer, pinpointed India's struggles against spin bowling as the primary reason for their surprising series defeat, in an interview with local Indian media:

“I think you get used to playing on such good wickets. And when it does turn, techniques get exposed a little bit. For a long time, when India played on turning surfaces, they still had the best spinners in the world in Jadeja and Ashwin."

“So, they’ve been able to undo other sides. In this Test match, they were undone by a New Zealand side that, with all due respect, is not a world-class spin bowling attack. So, that will be a concern of some sort.”

“There’re issues against spin but he’s not the only one. You’re not going to find those (spin-friendly) conditions in Australia. He (Kohli) had a great series Down Under."

“He plays quick bowling as well as he has for the last four or five years. So, I don’t think it’s a concern.”
 
Ganguly, Dravid etc. played in an era when Indian pitches were flat roads. Early 2000s era being overrated as always.
 
sindhiboy said:
Ganguly, Dravid etc. played in an era when Indian pitches were flat roads. Early 2000s era being overrated as always.
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These same guys were doing much better in 2016-20. Their ability to play spin has clearly declined. Ganguly, Dravid etc. should not be compared to current lot. They were the type of players of spin that these guys will never be.
 
Yup, the current generations ability to read spin has gone missing. there is an aspect of early age cricket that is being ignored.

In my days of growing up, the only cricket equipment that many could afford was a carved out wood as a bat and the a rubber ball.

Has anyone played cricket with rubber ball here? That thing with spin, bite and bounce like no t'rrow regardless of who is throwing/bowling and taught as a batsmen to read the release closely and be rady as soon as the ball leaves the hand. This meant that even your rank average player would know what the ball is going to do. It was a matter of execution at that point.

With "better" resources available, the art of reading spin has gone missing.

eg" Ajinkya Rahana
 
sindhiboy said:
Ganguly, Dravid etc. played in an era when Indian pitches were flat roads. Early 2000s era being overrated as always.
Click to expand...
So you must also accept that the likes of Kumble were simply sensational since they took most of their wickets on flat roads of India, no?
 
Murali's Record vs India in India: 40 wickets in 11 tests avg 45
Murali's Record vs India in Sri Lanka: 65 wickets in 11 tests avg 24
Indian pitches were flatter in Ganguly-Dravid era.
 
Quality of batting when the ball is doing anything has dipped considerably.

India is still very good at playing spin when compared to other teams but is poor when you compare to teams of the past.
 
Sehwag and sachin both were great against spinners

Both are as good as anyone in the history playing spin

So overall indians are not bad players of spin but current generation being susceptible is a fact
 
MMHS said:
Definitely not like what it was 20-30 years back (a time when WK Mongia batted for 11 hours on a Delhi dust bowl against Warne, Collins & McEntyre), but still I belive they are among the best - in fact their current opponents are probably among top as well hence it’s nullified. I can safely say three WKs of 90s - Mongia, Moin & Kalu can teach modern batting greats few tips about batting against spin.
Click to expand...
I agree with the rest of your post apart from this, Rishab Pant is already our greatest keeper bat, if Mongia and Khan were so great against spin then they must have been terrible against Pacers considering they average in high 20s and low 30s. Mongia might have been good for an odd rear guard but surely not a better run scorer against spin than Pant.

MMHS said:
The fact is that spin playing skill is at its lowest point these days that I have seen live or archived- and I have seen lot, lot I mean lot. From black & white footage of Neil Hervey playing Jim Laker on a wet wicket to YK driving inside out on a 5th day track ….. to modern greats Root playing spin or Kohli trying to flick a full toss through midwicket.
Click to expand...
Kohlis ability to play spin has gone down the drain otherwise I can actually tell you that kohli also used to play inside out shot against spinner like YK, you can see it in the 2014 tour of Aus, when we were chasing 300 odd in Adelaide. His hands and reflexes have become slower and t20 cricket has had a bad impact on his spin playing abilities.
 
Is there any batting line-up that's comparable to Sehwag Dravid Tendulkar Laxman Dhoni and Ganguly later Gambhir? Nopes.

So no use making that comparison.

Rohit is a v good player of spin but he is 38 and declining. Same with Kohli.

Jaiswal is a very good player of spin and it showed. Same with pant.

What surprised me was Sarfaraz. He is excellent in domestics.

The other good players of spin are Iyer and Jurel.

Gill is a ok player of spin.

If Indian players were not good against spin, They wouldn't have won 18 consecutive series in India.

But one thing needs to change, the likes of Kohli and Rohit has set a very poor precedent of not playing in domestic cricket. This cannot go on.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
I agree with the rest of your post apart from this, Rishab Pant is already our greatest keeper bat, if Mongia and Khan were so great against spin then they must have been terrible against Pacers considering they average in high 20s and low 30s. Mongia might have been good for an odd rear guard but surely not a better run scorer against spin than Pant.


Kohlis ability to play spin has gone down the drain otherwise I can actually tell you that kohli also used to play inside out shot against spinner like YK, you can see it in the 2014 tour of Aus, when we were chasing 300 odd in Adelaide. His hands and reflexes have become slower and t20 cricket has had a bad impact on his spin playing abilities.
Click to expand...

Kohli and Rohit haven't played a domestic game in years. This was bound to happen.
 
Cricket Warrior said:
India performs better on fast bouncy tracks rather than on spin friendly ones which is why their performance on Australian pitches is superior better compared to other Asian teams.
Click to expand...

India won 18 consecutive series in India. Ashwin Jadeja rolled over teams for fun. Indian batsmen scored runs.

Now they are old. They don't play FC any more. That's the reason for decline.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Kohli and Rohit haven't played a domestic game in years. This was bound to happen.
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If they play in domestics, then they can't play in IPL. Their body won't support... Ideally they should play only in IPL or only in Tests! They are playing both - IPL for financial reasons and Tests for ego reasons. If they don't play tests then their ego will be hurt (though it won't affect them much financially) as critics rate test cricket high! IPL is a double-edged sword - if one side is not shielded properly...

IPL has improved the quality of our bowling, fitness, pressure-handling & over-all game presence of our emerging players, but at the same time it has made our accomplished cricketers to choose & play whichever game they want! This has not only made these players turn becoming ineffective/lazy, at the same time it has closed the doors of upcoming players to get exposure at the right time! It has messed up everything...

Some of our fans/media accuse IPL for its demerits, but at the same time they have been blind on its positives... IPL has played its part in improving India's cricketing strength for past 2 decades... 18 home series win and competitive overseas is the indication.. And they are reaching the finals/semis of most ICC tournaments... So they are progressing in one side, but at the same time degrading on the other side! Team composition keep failing because of the above mentioned reasons, and so can't win the crunch games...

And at some point a massive low will occur (like we are 2-0 behind in a home test series which was never heard of anytime before in our history perhaps! And a possible whitewash!) and things will look devastating if this continues (We have also lost our "pace bowling strength in home test matches" which was existent even before the the emergence of Bumrah... Jadeja/Ashwin are turning ineffective -both bat & ball, Pujara/Kohli going down, etc, etc) the damages will be ominous...

If BCCI becomes so greedy & spineless, then at some point our future youth may lose interest in cricket (with no more iconic players coming up from time to time and don't get the right exposure!) So our generation (people watching cricket from 80s, 90s, 00s...) may be the last to support cricket! Already tests & ODIs are dying and if only T20 remain, then it will soon go & blend with baseball...
 
The reason why test cricket is still surviving is because of Ashes & because of India's performance in tests for last couple of decades! And if India starts to lose matches like this (that too home tests), then people will lose interest and you will no more see 5 tests in Australia/England with India! BCCI might as well think of 2nd IPL in a calender year...
 
India cannot play anything: swing, seam, spin. A little variety and they are toast. The true definition of FTBs.
 
Mamoon said:
India cannot play anything: swing, seam, spin. A little variety and they are toast. The true definition of FTBs.
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They can that’s why they drew in England and South Africa. When the swing and seam is exaggerated, it can be a problem but then it is for all.
 
Ab Fan said:
They can that’s why they drew in England and South Africa. When the swing and seam is exaggerated, it can be a problem but then it is for all.
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0 Test series wins in ENG, SA, NZ for the so called GOAT Asian Test says everything that needs to be said.
 
Mamoon said:
0 Test series wins in ENG, SA, NZ for the so called GOAT Asian Test says everything that needs to be said.
Click to expand...
But you said they couldn’t play spin, swing or seam yet they won in SL with Sangakkara and Herath playing and drew vs strong England side.
 
Mamoon said:
0 Test series wins in ENG, SA, NZ for the so called GOAT Asian Test says everything that needs to be said.
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It is not 'so called'...the only person who actually called it and opened a thread here about it here is you.

I don't think many Indian fans have called present Indian side as GOAT Asian test team...far from it.
 
Ab Fan said:
But you said they couldn’t play spin, swing or seam yet they won in SL with Sangakkara and Herath playing and drew vs strong England side.
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That SL series took place nearly a decade ago. India were good against spin until the last few years but they are finished now. Losing at home to NZ after doctoring the pitch is the ultimate embarrassment for the GOAT Asian Test team.

Also, if you are celebrating a drawn series in England, you are making to obvious that you don’t have expectations from the GOAT Asian Teat team in swinging/seaming conditions.

0 Test series wins in England, South Africa and New Zealand and 0 WTC wins including two hammerings in the finals badly exposes the reality of this extremely overrated team and group of players.

Apart from Pant, every single Indian cricketer is not as good as they are made out to be. That is a reality.
 
Mamoon said:
That SL series took place nearly a decade ago. India were good against spin until the last few years but they are finished now. Losing at home to NZ after doctoring the pitch is the ultimate embarrassment for the GOAT Asian Test team.

Also, if you are celebrating a drawn series in England, you are making to obvious that you don’t have expectations from the GOAT Asian Teat team in swinging/seaming conditions.

0 Test series wins in England, South Africa and New Zealand and 0 WTC wins including two hammerings in the finals badly exposes the reality of this extremely overrated team and group of players.

Apart from Pant, every single Indian cricketer is not as good as they are made out to be. That is a reality.
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It’s a declining team although still good at the moment. The present team is not in contention, the one we had between 2015-2023 was a top team and back then there was a poster called Mamoon who led the bandwagon.

It is still a good team as it smashed Bangladesh ferociously who in turn smashed Pakistan ferociously in their backyard.
 
It is important to note that the next generation of Indian batsmen don’t look too assured vs spin either, so this is the end of their home dominance. They will be reduced to an average team home and away.
 
Mamoon said:
It is important to note that the next generation of Indian batsmen don’t look too assured vs spin either, so this is the end of their home dominance. They will be reduced to an average team home and away.
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Maybe. But there is nobody better than them. There is no great team in World Cricket right now.

India are the best of a mediocre bunch and will continue to be for a very long time.
 
Hmmm. Think the gap between them and the Rest of the world is not as big as it once was. Everyone is vulnerable when the ball does anything. Just the nature of the modern game.

The sport has become more result oriented. Defensive techniques are shot. Get as many runs before a ball with your name comes around.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Can't compare with spinners and spin play from 30 years ago.

DRS has changed the game completely. And spinners are bowling a lot quicker and at the stumps much more consistently with batters forced to play with bat in front of pad.
Click to expand...
This is very important. Michael Atherton has written about it in detail.
 
India’s assistant coach Abhishek Nayar in the pre-match press conference ahead of 3rd Test, has played down the team’s weakness against spin:

“That's a bit of a harsh statement. When you're trying to achieve something, there's always going to be a time when you take a certain dip because you're trying to play cricket in a different way and you're trying to push yourself out of the comfort zone.”

“Sometimes the results don't go your way, but if you're patient enough and when that upward curve hits the team and hits an individual, then your purple patch lasts for really long. We're hoping that the transition that we're trying to have in terms of the mindset and the approach of the players in Team India, (given) that we're facing this dip now, but once we start hitting the upward curve, it'll be a long curve.”
 
India head coach, Gautam Gambhir said during pre match press conference ahead of 3rd Test against New Zealand:

"Sometimes you have to give it to the opposition as well. Mitchell Santner was outstanding in the last game. But yes, we'll keep working hard, we'll keep getting better. Guys are putting in a lot of hard yards in the nets."

"Ultimately it's the results that matter when you're playing international cricket but I don't think that our skill against spin has actually gone down. It's about probably keep working hard and keep getting better."
 
FearlessRoar said:
India head coach, Gautam Gambhir said during pre match press conference ahead of 3rd Test against New Zealand:

"Sometimes you have to give it to the opposition as well. Mitchell Santner was outstanding in the last game. But yes, we'll keep working hard, we'll keep getting better. Guys are putting in a lot of hard yards in the nets."

"Ultimately it's the results that matter when you're playing international cricket but I don't think that our skill against spin has actually gone down. It's about probably keep working hard and keep getting better."
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means they are done with spinning tracks so expect a green top in mumbai now lol
 
Last three wickets fell cheaply for India today. Two were claimed by NZ spinners.
 
The former New Zealand cricketer, Simon Doull recalled the comment he had made regarding Prithvi Shaw and Shubman Gill during the young duo’s playing days in U19 cricket, while talking to local Indian broadcast media:


“When you think about a young man with the ability to change things in the middle of a series, that’s what’s quite impressive. And I first saw Shubman in the U-19 World Cup in New Zealand and there was so much chat around Prithvi Shaw at that stage."

“I made quite a bold statement that Shubman Gill’s career would way, way surpass what Prithvi Shaw does because there were some technical flaws in Prithvi Shaw and Shubman just didn’t look like he had technical flaws at that stage."

“When I interviewed him, he was like I want big runs. I want big hundreds and that’s the hunger of the man. I think he wants them at Test level as well. Yes, the white-ball stuff means a lot to him, but he wants runs here. He wants big runs at this level, and that can only bode well."

“When you think about Jaiswal Gill and Pant, they are the future of the batting of this side and he’s got a huge role to play in years to come. So, to make little improvements in between Test matches, absolute class."
 
Navjot Singh Sidhu breaking down art of playing spin after India's whitewash against New Zealand

nOclNOW.png
 
Yes Sidhu was one of the greatest exponent of spin bowling... Still remeber 1993 test series (India vs England, where India clean swept 3-0 fond memories) where he used to demolish the spin bowling (after safely negotiating the new ball). India needs players like him (openers in particular). Jaiswal has to approach Sidhu...

It was a pleasure watching Sidhu batting as an opener on Indian Pitches (didn't do too bad overseas either). Demands of ODI (at that time) I think put pressure over him a bit...
 
There is a difference between using feet vs using pads when it comes to spin bowling (one is positive & one is negative). But both has to be done in intelligent & measured way (one for aggression & one for defense). Also sweeping is still a very non-sub-continent approach, Indians should stick on to the traditional using feet method... Laxman had another different way to handle spinners by using the crease and catching both line & length at the same time...
 
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