The point of my original post was that if Babar had put his foot down surely the likes of Shadab would not be in the main 11. Judging talent is one thing but judging performance a captain should surely recognise.
If your going to use the term proper "trophy" than how is that defined
Which PCB? There are various versions of it every other month
Doesn't matter which guise.
I am honestly willing to have an open discourse
.. What leading from the front, 42 to win of an Australian attack including prime stark in 2019 with one wicket? Rizzu would take a single as well lol, so would babar. Literally unless you're Butler or Dhoni who can win games and even then their unlikely to win it from this position against this attack, we ain't winning that..
Sad but true!
Stephen Fleming is regarded as one of the best captains in cricket history. It totally untrue that he’s not celebrated as a leader in the world, let alone NZ.
While Sarfaraz is not as great a captain as many delusional fans are making him out to be, it is not as black and white as you are making it out to be.
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. Rn even our test team is bad with saud and Abdullah being > Everyone lol as shown in Sri Lankan test... Only thing babar has over the other 2 is that he's a better bat then they are lol."I am honestly willing to have an open discourse"
AlrightE
"Again you can't say any team is not in a state to win any tournament. Besides the two world cups and the test championship, any team if in form can pull enough consecutive victories to win small tournaments like the Asia Cup or Champions Trophy"
^^ But that's not true. CT format is very identical to current world cup format, infact its actually harder.
In world cups a team like Pakistan can lose to a bunch of main teams but as long as they consistently beat the weaker teams like afg, Bangladesh, and manage to pull on one or 2 wins against any of SENA or India they can qualify. NZ after beating England pretty much qualified since they have 10 points in the bag, they ain't losing to Bangladesh, Afg, Nedthelrands, sri lanka ironically they can lose the other games and unless some team pulls a blinder their NRR means they've pretty much qualifies.
In CT you can only lose one game thats it. The rest is pretty much an eliminator format, so you need to win consistently in a row. We have to beat sa, Sri Lanka, India and England in a row lol that's not easier then Pakistan grabbing wins against nedtherlands, Bangladesh, afg, Sri Lanka and trying their hand to win any games against sena or India.
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The fact that your brought up the 2012 Asia Cup proves my point. At that time Bangladesh were still considered minnows and hadn't evolved into the semi decent team they are now and yet they still made the final. Let's also remember this was a year after the 2011 world cup where both India and Sri Lanka were the finalist of that tournament"
But the problem is Asia cup in 2012 was just 4 teams, afg wasn't really a team in 2012 lol, secondly Asia cup does not include Sputh Africa, England, Australia or New Zealand which are champion teams. So alot of things can happen for teams to win, Because rain affected games could occur which shift the balance etc etc, BCCI deliberately made sure that a reserve day was played just for Pakistan and India because if their was no reserve day, India would have likely been out of the tournament as Pakistan would progress but if they lost to Sri Lanka India would be out,
^^ a scenario like this is unlikely to happen in world cups where their 45+ games and not all of them can be rain affected. Chances of winning Asia cup is significantly higher when SENA isn't involved. Also I'm not saying sarfi's humiliating 2018 Asia cup endeavour shpuld be discarded lol. But Asia cup isn't really a tournament lol
"
Bangladesh also made the final for the 2016 Asia Cup and Afghanistan in last years Asia Cup hammered both Sri Lanka and Bangladesh in their group games and almost pulled off a heist vs Pakistan
The fact is smaller tournaments means any team can"
Bro CT is not a small tournament, that's what you're not getting. It's the top 8 teams, meaning their is no minnows to bash, And almost every game is pretty much a high pressure eliminator, so no nonsense like we pulled in 1992 where we lost 4 games on the dot and then made a comeback. You have a margin of only one loss against the top teams. Their is no nedtherlands, West indies, or heck even Bangladesh or Afghanistan to bash lol. Semi decent teams can pull a victory over stronger teams but not consistently and its usually not the case especially in world cup events.
In CT their are no semi decent teams lol, their zero minnows and zero chances of error besides one game, only advantage CT has over world cup, is that its possible to win the cup and not play every team, because group eliminator format means some teams won't be played whereas in the world cups you play every single team, but it doesn't matter cause pressure is higher for loss ratios.
Winning CT is Harder then winning Asia cup, much harder lol, this shouldn't be up for debate. Winning ct is logically the hardest tournament even more so then world cups due to chances of error being lower. World cup is a more balanced tournament because we play all teams yes, it's also a more prestigious tournament and carries more weight, But winning CT is harder in general. Heck winning the t20 world cup is harder them the world cup cause t20 semi decent sides one up bigger sides a more consistently then in odi's. Although the better team still usually wins.
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Regarding Kamran, as I said I've never been his fan and I wouldn't have called him up, despite PSL form. However if you are bringing a player back than you should at least give them 2-3 series to let them build confidence and then come to a judgement. If your only going to give them four games than most of the great player we see today may not even by the greats that they are"
^^ first off, for Kamran the 2nd argument doesn't apply, Kamran isn't someone new, he's been given very very long ropes and has had an extremely extremely average career in general, So if he failed 4 games in international but smashed in psl which is something he's consistently shown, then those 4 games are enough.
Secondly kamran is a backup keeper and with rizzu outperforming him, their was no need to bring an old horse back. Kamran was brought to the circuit for psl form, but it's clear younger bloods were better cut out, he genuinely had zero place since rizzu was in contention for a future replacement.
"1. Excluding Rizwan from the world cup squad even after he made 2 100s vs Aus. To me this shows a real sense of insecurity and seeing such behaviour from a captain makes my blood boil. Rizwan was in form, Rizwan was batting brilliantly and yet Sarfraz overlooked that form and instead went with a worn out Malik who couldn't buy a run in that world cup"
^^ This part I've already agreed with, as I said kamran didn't have a place since he was a backup keeper and rizzu was their lol showing international standards. However rizzu wasn't discarded due to insecurity per say from sarfraz, this nepotism culture has always been in place. Malik was selected over sarfi because Pakistan has made the put of form experience >>>>> Current form excuse for decades and its been backfiring since the misbah days lol.
You can blame sarfraz for dropping rizzu due to him being an idiot, but you can't blame him for dropping because he was insecure lol. He dropped because malik was senior and our management think tank never understands thay seniority means nothing. Its why bcci is ahead of us. It didn't take them a second to drop put of form dhawan for Gill.
"2. His innings vs Australia in the world cup. Now for me this was the straw that broke the camels back. After Hassan and Wahab played two damn good cameos we were in with a slender but at least possible chance to win that game. However what Sarfraz did was criminal. With 42 left to win and with 1 wicket in hand on the last ball of Mitchell Starc's over, he made Shaheen take a single forcing a 19 year old Shaheen to face a full over. A FULL OVER when we were 40 runs away and Sarfraz was batting on 40. To add icing on the cake, it wasn't even Shaheen being dismissed that lost us that game, it was Sarfraz being run out
Now bro you seriously can't tell me that is the pinnacle of selfishness. A captain should lead from the front and instead what did he do. He gave the 19 year old the responsibility to play out a full over."
^^ Brother we were not gonna win that game in any scenario
That's not called being selfish. It was a proper lost cause. I'd do the same anything its a pipe dream to think you can win from that position lol
I'll agree on the lead from the front part though. Sarfi ducked himself down the batting order many times even under hasan to cover up for his lack of form and fitness.
I'm.not saying sarfraz shouldn't have been dropped lol. The dude was unfit and had no form. I'm just saying what's he's achieved for Pakistan is nowhere close to what misbah and Babar have come close to achieving and the whole rizzu being dropped and his unselfish claims are baseless.
Their was no dosti yaari in his days lol.
Misbah was nepotisitc but wasn't brainless, Misbah had the potential to be the best captain for Pakistan but his buddy culture ruined everything.
Sarfraz was brainless in regards to team selection such as playing shehzad for 3 games before dropping him for fakhar but he wasn't nepotisitc, their wasn't any dosti yaari and he was a killer on field captain before his unfitness.
Babar is brainless and nepotistic. He's basically the 2 worst aspects of misbah and sarfraz lol. His only saving grace is that he's a superior batsmen to both of them.
. What leading from the front, 42 to win of an Australian attack including prime stark in 2019 with one wicket?
We can also add a few points of how Misbah kept selecting the worst keeper of all time, Kamran Akmal. In fact, whole team in Misbah’s era was full of terrible fielders. There used to be a bunch of dropped catches each match.Babar is 100x worse then misbah lol.
A) First off under misbah rule, the rankings cam be considered more or less accurate. We were ranked no 6 slowly decreasing to no 9 which we eventually did, so it's not like their was any hype lol.
Under babar we are falsely led to believe we are greater then we are and fans are getting a reality check lol
As for test team, before our sharp decline we were no 1 at one team genuinely. Chucking ajmal and hafeez along with junaid and our other bowlers at the time couple's with azhar, Younis, sarfraz was a pretty killer batting line up, Misbah wasn't a bad test player either. Only opening with shehzad and hafeez was a bit weak. No 3 to 7 was
B) Secondly Misbah was a nepotistic stubborn clown, but he was far car smarter then babar and Sarfraz. The guy had the potential to be the great captain for Pakistan ever, His field set, ability to defend low totals, and having a plan for every opposition as well as keeping chuck ajmal from overs 30 to 50 was a genius strategy. In terms of field sets and aggressive nature he is far >>>> Sarfi and Babar
Problem with misbah however is that he's beyond stubborn, he prefers his buddies irrespective of how bad they are. He desperately wanted someone like asad shafiq or Imran farhat to succeed because they were anchores and his view of duck till 40th and keep your power hitters for the last 10 Is a 1980's outdated approach, something viv in 1970's would mock.
Someone like saim ayub may not be as consistent as imam but ik if he performs its a game changer, Imam performing does nothing. Misbah had this view, Keep pinch hitters at 6 and 7 and useless stat paddlers at the top, misbah also was super lienant and didn't adopt a growth culture. He was fine with shehzad selfie nonsense and didn't see anything wrong with shehzad. On media he even said shehzad ability to not rotate strike or his cover drives always going to the fielder or him being clueless against inswing is not an issue lol. No player improved under misbah's Reign cause the dude didn't establish any fitness or improvement standards.
And he did this deliberately because he himself just wants Pakistan to stay a test nation and doesn't give a damn about odi and t20 or cups or any of that nonsense.
The whole misbah had a nothing team is garbage when sarfraz had the same team that won under 19 Cup, Misbah captained these lads when they were mid 20's.
Babar however is 100x worse then misbah because babar is literally all of these things except unlike misbah, Babar is also clueless in field settings and captaincy, the one thing misbah was good at was planning and field settings and winning against bigger teams even when the score was 230. The only difference between babar and misbah in batting approach is that misbah's idea was 40 overs duck and 10 overs bash, And babar's idea is 30 overs duck and 20 overs bash, but obviously neither of these ideas work lol
So in a nutshell
Sarfraz: Non nepotsitic and aggressive but slightly clueless in terms of selection criterias and batting orders, however wanted to adapt to modern game standards.
Misbah: Aggressive and the best fielding captain but nepotsitic and Corrupt af.
Babar: Non aggressive, Nepotsitic and clueless
^^ But that's not true. CT format is very identical to current world cup format, infact its actually harder.
That's not true man. A shorter tournament means that two things.
1. In longer tournaments like the world cup all teams are forced to play amongst each other and therefore everyone will be tested against a variety of bowling attacks, just take the Afg vs Eng game for example. A greater variety of attacks means that only the best teams will have the resources to handle that
2. Longer tournaments also put into test a teams fitness and resilience and as such longer tournaments are a greater barometer into a teams overall depth with regards to bench players as well as a better assessment on individual players consistency and ability to withstand pressure
Now bro you seriously can't tell me that is the pinnacle of selfishness. A captain should lead from the front and instead what did he do. He gave the 19 year old the responsibility to play out a full over."
^^ Brother we were not gonna win that game in any scenario
Sure the odds were stacked against us and 9.5 times out of 10 we would have lost that game. However that's not the issue, the issue is he didn't even try to go for it and instead threw a 19 year old under the bus.
Cricket is a funny game, we have seen Stokes chase 70 of the last wicket, Kusual Perrera also did the same thing. The fact is that it is possible and even if it wasn't it was still a cowardly thing to do. Sarfraz could have easily taken the strike himself and looked to hit boundaries only. Even if he did get out, no one would blame him. However he did the opposite, threw a youngster into the deep end. For me that is the pinnacle of cowardness
Now regarding achievements. I will take a number one test ranking over the Champions trophy any day of the week.
The fact is the West Indies team of 2004 and New Zealand team of 2000 where both able to win those events even though they were clearly not the best teams of those tournaments. However not once in test history has a number one ranking been a fluke.
For that it requires years of team building, consistency, home domination and at the very least an ability to compete with the big boys in away conditions. All of that was achieved under Misbah and for that I have a tremendous respect for him
My respect for Sarfraz dwindles even more considering the fact that he inherited that team and took it from being unbeatable in the UAE to losing twice vs SL and NZ
It is, when do you plan to start your boycott?
Tendulkar played with some of the worst players to wear Indian shirt, and he was always a reluctant captain. He was offered captaincy in 2007 but declined and suggested Dhoni and we all know the results.
Point is Tendulkar was a terrible captain, as well as babar
Tendulkar despite all the limitations still won a multi national tournament (Titan Cup). He also showed his mettle in the IPL as captain for MI.
I see, you just can't accept Tendulkar being criticized and coming up with the Tendulkar logic, reluctant captain, referred dhoni. Won an ipl.
Antidote? We reached the semi finals and just chocked but would have reached the finals pre misbah era? Under him we were considered a joke team?
, had Imran farhat open in ct 2013, fawad alam the best performer in 2014 was discarded because YK a tried and tested failure wanted to get his precious no 3 and misbah was doing dosti yaari, he gave asad shafiq 60+ games at no 3. In the world cup everyone was begging him to drop nasir jamshed for sarfraz, Jamshed was out of form since 2013 and sarfraz was in form and the best batter at the time given his NZ and Australia series run, but misbah outright refused and made a forced change last minute lol., their were better players in the circuit and he refused to select them outright.
that guy has said that he doesn't want anyone to break Misbah's record for most wins as a test captain of Pakistan.
This is the guy who made umar amin a debutant his vice captain
Shehzad getting multiple chances Under him was the problem
., he didn't even know he existed lol. Imad was no where to he seen in the misbah days.. This guy made Umar akmal keep over an actual keeper.
Whereas Shehzad himself went on to say that Misbah didn't give him 'respect and support'.
@mominsaigol the devil is in the details and if you search deep enough you will find logic behind some of the decisions you're blindly criticizing. For example-
Asad Shafiq had already played 20 something innings at number 3 in ODIs before Misbah was appointed captain and he was doing well. At the same time he was performing in Tests.
Haris Sohail wasn't discarded. He got his due chance and even played the 2015 ODI WC (mostly at 3)
What I meant by grooming by Afridi and Malik is that they were the two politicians in the team. Both mediocre players who knew how to pounce on the right opportunities to prolong their careers. They were stars and seniors though. And their stardom was starting to influence Shehzad and Akmal, who also started thinking that they're superstars. Shehzad and Afridi's friendship was public and on record. Shehzad got the long rope because of Afridi. You've also admitted that Afridi did favours for Shehzad. Yet you're arguing that Misbah was the nepotistic one
At least you admit that Rizwan and Babar improved. In some earlier post you were mentioning no one has improved under Misbah. And don't forget Shaheen and Naseem selections for the Australia test tour. Misbah threw them in the deep end then and now they're pace attack leaders. He groomed, you just didn't notice.
We've come a long way under Misbah but we'll never see eye to eye on that. Let's just agree to disagree
Whereas Shehzad himself went on to say that Misbah didn't give him 'respect and support'."
Amla didn't do anything as a sa captain
Babar is 100x worse then misbah lol.
A) First off under misbah rule, the rankings cam be considered more or less accurate. We were ranked no 6 slowly decreasing to no 9 which we eventually did, so it's not like their was any hype lol.
Under babar we are falsely led to believe we are greater then we are and fans are getting a reality check lol
As for test team, before our sharp decline we were no 1 at one team genuinely. Chucking ajmal and hafeez along with junaid and our other bowlers at the time couple's with azhar, Younis, sarfraz was a pretty killer batting line up, Misbah wasn't a bad test player either. Only opening with shehzad and hafeez was a bit weak. No 3 to 7 was
B) Secondly Misbah was a nepotistic stubborn clown, but he was far car smarter then babar and Sarfraz. The guy had the potential to be the great captain for Pakistan ever, His field set, ability to defend low totals, and having a plan for every opposition as well as keeping chuck ajmal from overs 30 to 50 was a genius strategy. In terms of field sets and aggressive nature he is far >>>> Sarfi and Babar
Problem with misbah however is that he's beyond stubborn, he prefers his buddies irrespective of how bad they are. He desperately wanted someone like asad shafiq or Imran farhat to succeed because they were anchores and his view of duck till 40th and keep your power hitters for the last 10 Is a 1980's outdated approach, something viv in 1970's would mock.
Someone like saim ayub may not be as consistent as imam but ik if he performs its a game changer, Imam performing does nothing. Misbah had this view, Keep pinch hitters at 6 and 7 and useless stat paddlers at the top, misbah also was super lienant and didn't adopt a growth culture. He was fine with shehzad selfie nonsense and didn't see anything wrong with shehzad. On media he even said shehzad ability to not rotate strike or his cover drives always going to the fielder or him being clueless against inswing is not an issue lol. No player improved under misbah's Reign cause the dude didn't establish any fitness or improvement standards.
And he did this deliberately because he himself just wants Pakistan to stay a test nation and doesn't give a damn about odi and t20 or cups or any of that nonsense.
The whole misbah had a nothing team is garbage when sarfraz had the same team that won under 19 Cup, Misbah captained these lads when they were mid 20's.
Babar however is 100x worse then misbah because babar is literally all of these things except unlike misbah, Babar is also clueless in field settings and captaincy, the one thing misbah was good at was planning and field settings and winning against bigger teams even when the score was 230. The only difference between babar and misbah in batting approach is that misbah's idea was 40 overs duck and 10 overs bash, And babar's idea is 30 overs duck and 20 overs bash, but obviously neither of these ideas work lol
So in a nutshell
Sarfraz: Non nepotsitic and aggressive but slightly clueless in terms of selection criterias and batting orders, however wanted to adapt to modern game standards.
Misbah: Aggressive and the best fielding captain but nepotsitic and Corrupt.
Babar: Non aggressive, Nepotsitic and clueless
At the moment bro, Zaka Ashraf has made a big blunder by giving Babar, Rizwan and Shaheen 3 year central contracts. This is a bigger blunder as compared to Najam Sethi giving Mickey Arthur a cushy online coach contract.
I remember SL were 120 by the 19th over in the final and he gave 18 year old Amir the last over, Amir went for 20 or close to that and SL posted 140.
What’s bizarre is that he was really close to Misbah. Perhaps considered the best friend of Misbah.
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In Pakistan cricket, no one is truly anyone’s friend.
Some guys are gifted with game reading sense. It was Younis who signalled to Yasir Shah to bowl wide of off stump to Shanon Gabriel in that Test match Pakistan won on the last ball, that was elite game sense and a sign of how well he read the game.
Just shows that Afridi always needed to bat ahead of so-called anchorers.
I think Afridi’s best position was the number 6+captain position.
Younis was the greatest captain since imran for a while, unfortunately he suffered alot with pressure and his odi form
I think it’s pretty clear how corrupt and nepotistic he was by selecting friends like Imran Farhat, Ahmed Shehzad, Asad Shafiq, Kamran Akmal, Mohammed Hafeez, Umar Amin, Sami Aslam, Azhar Ali, Shan Masood, Mohammed Irfan, etc.
Kamran akmal and sami aslam were fine. Misbah destroyed their careers, he didn't Select them.
I am curious what he meant about boycott, like is he going to go to India and start a gandhi movement? Aka not eating until Pakistan disbands
I am curious what he meant about boycott, like is he going to go to India and start a gandhi movement? Aka not eating until Pakistan disbands
I must say I don’t agree with you about Kamran Akmal, I’ve never seen a wicket keeper drop so many catches in my entire life. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say he destroyed the averages or some of the bowlers who played at that time.
With respect there's some serious revisionist history here. I'm not a Misbah fan but he's become a convenient, catch-all scapegoat for the failures of mediocre cricketers.
I wasn't per say talking about his keeping, I was talking about his batting. The guy has won us a tournament for his country. Yes the 22 average is poor, but he genuinely was a haris like opener and at the very least t20 format was his jam, so he should have stayed as a t20 opener.
I must say I don’t agree with you about Kamran Akmal, I’ve never seen a wicket keeper drop so many catches in my entire life. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say he destroyed the averages or some of the bowlers who played at that time.
On Hafeez, I completely agree. He could have been such an incredible all rounder if he dropped a few drops down the batting order like he did later in his career. I remember his great innings in the Champions Trophy final. It’s been a long time, but I think he was very stubborn about wanting to remain as an opener.
To be honest, even just looking at the batting of Umar Akmal and Kamran, I still can’t blame Misbah.
. Azhar in odi post misbah era avg 45 and 85 Sr against quality oppositions. He also played b and c string just like imam but if you look at the 2 players it's dead clear who's superior in their primes lol.
