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Third seamer at the Champions Trophy : Junaid Khan vs Wahab Riaz vs Fahim Ashraf

sadida97

sadida97

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Who would you want to play as your third seamer ?

Do you think we should take a risk and play fahim, as his batting can be important ?

Wahab will provide you with pace, but again he is too expensive.

Junaid is also quite expensive at times.

So can fahim be useful ?
 
Although none of us have seen his knock. After this batting performance, who would say no to Fahim?
 
junaid is a new ball bowler and a good to ok death bowler..

fahim with his match winning knock today has booked his place for the next game...

both did well today... junaid was good with the ball taking 3 wickets...fahim finished the match chasing brilliantly. match winning knock.......
 
I'll play both Fahim and Junaid.

Hafeez/Shehzad
Fakhar
Babar
Sarfaraz
Malik
Imad
Shadab
Fahim
Hasan
Amir
Junaid
 
sadida97 said:
Haris ?
Click to expand...

I was hoping he would get a game today but he didn't and if he still doesn't play in the next warm up then I wouldn't want to return to international cricket in a high-pressure match against India.
 
Ellipsism said:
Would go with the same lineup but Ideally we need a genuine bat a #6.
Click to expand...

Imad, Shadab, Fahim and Hasan seems like a good enough lower order. Amir can bat two. Our problem right now is three of the top four. Azhar, Shehzad and Hafeez don't deserve to be there.
 
Syed1 said:
I'll play both Fahim and Junaid.

Hafeez/Shehzad
Fakhar
Babar
Sarfaraz
Malik
Imad
Shadab
Fahim
Hasan
Amir
Junaid
Click to expand...

I would go with the exact same.

That would be my ideal Pakistan lineup with Yamin instead of Fahim but now after Fahim's heroics, I'm more than happy to have him at #8.
 
He is miles ahead of Wahab if it's about swing bowling. He is used to bowling the new ball in FC.

He is a decent third/fourth bowler.
 
Syed1 said:
I was hoping he would get a game today but he didn't and if he still doesn't play in the next warm up then I wouldn't want to return to international cricket in a high-pressure match against India.
Click to expand...

He and Fakhar will probably be tried in the next warm-up. Management should make a decision on how they perform in that match, assuming they play.
 
No need to invest on an extra bowler as this tournament has all the makings of a run fest. My lineup would be

Hafeez
Fakhar
Babar
Haris
Malik
Sarfaraz
Imad
Shadab
Fahim
Amir
Hasan
 
Wahab takes the bench. He's been very poor as of late.

1. Hafeez/Fakhar
2. Shehzad
3. Babar
4. Haris
5. Malik
6. Sarfraz
7. Imad/Shadab
8. Ashraf
9. Hasan
10. Amir
11. Junaid
 
Syed1 hit it on the head. Azhar, Hafeez have shown what they are capable off. Shehzad is quickly approaching that category also.

Why don't we move Sarfraz up the order. Even let him open with Shehzad. Sarfraz is not a guy who can come at #6 and accelerate.

Fakhar should have been groomed a long time ago. No reason Azhar/Shehzad and a 35year old Hafeez should been ahead of Fakhar Zaman
 
asfandyar said:
No need to invest on an extra bowler as this tournament has all the makings of a run fest. My lineup would be

Hafeez
Fakhar
Babar
Haris
Malik
Sarfaraz
Imad
Shadab
Fahim
Amir
Hasan
Click to expand...
Fahim isn't good enough to feature as a third seamer.
 
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asfandyar said:
No need to invest on an extra bowler as this tournament has all the makings of a run fest. My lineup would be

Hafeez
Fakhar
Babar
Haris
Malik
Sarfaraz
Imad
Shadab
Fahim
Amir
Hasan
Click to expand...

Or if circumstances warrant, replace one of Shadab/Imad with a quickie. Our bowling options if we go with the above lineup would be:

Hafeez, Fakhar, Haris, Malik, Imad, Shadab, Fahim, Amir, Hasan. Even Babar can bowl a few. The whole lineup (excluding Sarfraz) can bowl so why include another bowler at the expense of a batsman)
 
Syed1 said:
I'll play both Fahim and Junaid.

Hafeez/Shehzad
Fakhar
Babar
Sarfaraz
Malik
Imad
Shadab
Fahim
Hasan
Amir
Junaid
Click to expand...

Imad, Shadab, Hasan, Amir, Junaid - Fahim/Hafeez - Way too many bowlers. Take out either hasan or junaid, and add in Fakhar Zaman or Haris.
 
asfandyar said:
Better than Wahab and Junaid from the little I have seen + stats.
Click to expand...
He's an easy bowler to attack.

We may have chased 340 but that was against a pop attack. I still have zero faith of this team chasing above 300 against decent attacks.

We need to restrict the op and frankly Fahim is incapable of that.
 
Ellipsism said:
He's an easy bowler to attack.

We may have chased 340 but that was against a pop attack. I still have zero faith of this team chasing above 300 against decent attacks.

We need to restrict the op and frankly Fahim is incapable of that.
Click to expand...

I respect your opinion, but both Junaid and Wahab are capable of leaking far more runs. The current warmup match can be a sample for this notion.
 
Wahab vs. Junaid. Not much comparison. Wahab has a bowling avg in the 60's in last 1.5years.
What was Fahim's pace?
 
asfandyar said:
I respect your opinion, but both Junaid and Wahab are capable of leaking far more runs. The current warmup match can be a sample for this notion.
Click to expand...
Both are capable of taking wickets which is the only way to restrict the opposition in the modern day.
 
Ellipsism said:
He's an easy bowler to attack.

We may have chased 340 but that was against a pop attack. I still have zero faith of this team chasing above 300 against decent attacks.

We need to restrict the op and frankly Fahim is incapable of that.
Click to expand...

There are two aspects to attacking: intent and execution.

Fahim may be an easy bowler whom you can intend to attack, but due to his disciplined bowling, not many of those attacks come off. In fact, that also means a higher chance of the batsman getting out. Wahab/Junaid may be feared because of their pace, but for them, even misdirected hits and edges can go to the boundary due to poor lines and lengths. At the end of the day, I am concerned with numbers, not how easy a bowler is to attack.
 
Ellipsism said:
Both are capable of taking wickets which is the only way to restrict the opposition in the modern day.
Click to expand...

Fahim's average in domestic exceeds theirs, so he is more capable as a wicket taker. All the points you have contested apply more to Junaid/Wahab than Fahim, so I don't know where this is going.
 
asfandyar said:
Fahim's average in domestic exceeds theirs, so he is more capable as a wicket taker. All the points you have contested apply more to Junaid/Wahab than Fahim, so I don't know where this is going.
Click to expand...
Fahim's average has been inflated by bowling in low quality tournaments such as the Regional OD Cup.

As Saj pointed out in a previous thread he's a bowler that oppositions will target.
 
1. Azhar / Shehzad
2. Fakhar (with the license to go berserk)
3. Babar
4. Sarfraz
5. Shoaib
6. Hafeez
7. Imad Wasim / Faheem Ashraf (depending on the pitch)
8. Shadab Khan
9. Amir
10. Hasan Ali
11. Junaid Khan / Wahab Riaz
 
asfandyar said:
Fahim's average in domestic exceeds theirs, so he is more capable as a wicket taker. All the points you have contested apply more to Junaid/Wahab than Fahim, so I don't know where this is going.
Click to expand...

Are you actually basing things off domestic average? And average in what? They're all about the same in fact I think Junaid is overall better.
 
hafizexpress said:
Are you actually basing things off domestic average? And average in what? They're all about the same in fact I think Junaid is overall better.
Click to expand...

If you want to compare two things, you need to control environmental variables and make sure they are compared in similar conditions. Comparing Wahab's international exploits with Fahim's domestic gains would be futile, and so will be Junaid's. The only environment where these three have already played are the domestics, so it is only logical to compare them in that context.

Statements such as "Our domestic system is crap" don't hold weight, because Wahab and Junaid have to face equally poor batsmen in domestics and yet even if we take out internationals from their records, they both average 28+ in List-A.
 
Typical PP, making someone nobody has seen a hero.

Based on [MENTION=9]Saj[/MENTION] review earlier, its clear Ashraf is more of a 4th bowler who will bat, so has to be between him, Shadab and Imad for 2 spots. If hes not gonna get wickets then 20/30 at the end on flat decks is pointless.


Our best team is :

Hafeez
Azhar (unfortunately our opening is poor but Fakhar Zaman looks awful from what I have seen and a left handed hafeez is better than Shahzad)

Babar
Haris Sohail
Sarfraz (not a lower order batter, 5 is his best spot, if not 4)
Malik (Again lack of depth in our side but probably our best hitter so needs to come in lower down)

Imad/Fahim
Shadab

Amir
Hasan Ali

Junaid over Wahab for me. Wahab can step it up in pressure games however.
 
I would play wahab over trundler junaid and fahim should play in place of shadab or imad
 
Hafeez
Shehzad
Babar
Haris
Malik
Sarfraz
Imad
Fahim
Hasan
Amir
Junaid

This way you get 2 left arm pacers, 2 Right arm pacers, an economical off spinner, A freakishly long tail that can tonk as per needed, 2 left arm orthodox and A gun middle order. The only problem is the openers and #6 and given what we have to work with realistically this is the best we can field.

Bench
Shadab (1st preference swap for non performer)
Fakhar (2nd preference swap for non performer)

Azhar Ali (Paid Vacation - Should be dropped from LOI next series)
Wahab Riaz (Paid Vaction - Should be dropped from LOI next series)

I know in an ideal world Hafeez and Shehzad both make way for Fakhar and Shadab with Sarfaraz opening but since this is the wretched cosmic reality known as Pakistan cricket the above lineup would be what is most likely the best possible XI we can make up based on current options and other factors included.
 
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Ellipsism said:
Both are capable of taking wickets which is the only way to restrict the opposition in the modern day.
Click to expand...

there may an internally coherent logic to your conjectures, much as when junaids gets on the 'height is everything' train, but virtually nothing of what you are arguing holds up against evidence. his actual performances are as good as any other specialist bowler, he takes heaps of wickets, his average is much lower than wahab's and he plays in the same domestic tourney's as everyone else. the basis of empirical science, ie the modern world, is that when your theory for how things work don't match up with evidence you change the theory. please join us there.
 
This is a difficult one.
I always like the pace option and wahab turns up mostly in icc tournaments
I want junaid to bowl at kohli
I want fahim after yesterday

We could squeeze fahim and another in by going with syeds team above
 
asfandyar said:
If you want to compare two things, you need to control environmental variables and make sure they are compared in similar conditions. Comparing Wahab's international exploits with Fahim's domestic gains would be futile, and so will be Junaid's. The only environment where these three have already played are the domestics, so it is only logical to compare them in that context.

Statements such as "Our domestic system is crap" don't hold weight, because Wahab and Junaid have to face equally poor batsmen in domestics and yet even if we take out internationals from their records, they both average 28+ in List-A.
Click to expand...

That may be true but it is still unfair to compare the averages of Wahab Riaz and Junaid Khan with Fahim Ashraf. Both Junaid and Wahab have played around a 100 and more List A matches respectively.
 
New Yorker said:
there may an internally coherent logic to your conjectures, much as when junaids gets on the 'height is everything' train, but virtually nothing of what you are arguing holds up against evidence. his actual performances are as good as any other specialist bowler, he takes heaps of wickets, his average is much lower than wahab's and he plays in the same domestic tourney's as everyone else. the basis of empirical science, ie the modern world, is that when your theory for how things work don't match up with evidence you change the theory. please join us there.
Click to expand...
I know Fahim's ability as a wicket taking bowler, and there isn't much there. Fahim has a weak action that significantly lowers the amount of bounce he gets and a terrible wrist position and not to mention his lollipop pace. He doesn't offer much with the ball.

I'm not term Junaid as some supreme wicket taker he's rubbish, however, his wicket taking ability greatly supersedes Fahim.

I've seen enough of Fahim to pass down a judgement and the majority would agree with me that he isn't a third seamer. Saj himself mentioned that he was a bowler that oppositions will go after. Pakistan can't afford to have such as a bowler as you and I both know Pak's ability to chase totals above 300.
 
sadida97 said:
Who would you want to play as your third seamer ?

Do you think we should take a risk and play fahim, as his batting can be important ?

Wahab will provide you with pace, but again he is too expensive.

Junaid is also quite expensive at times.

So can fahim be useful ?
Click to expand...

Both should play. Dropping JK means 2.5 pacers. It's a choice between Fahim & Imad - similar purpose player, one pacer, one spinner. Imad' bowling can be covered with Haris & Fakhar. Playing XI can be

Fakhar, MoHa
Babar, Haris, Sarfraz, Malik
Shadab, Fahim
Amir, Hasan, JK

If MoHa isn't comfortable to open, he should be dropped.
 
My ideal team would be one where both Fahim and Junaid play while not having to drop Shadab or Imad.

Sarfraz Ahmed
Fakhar Zaman/Ahmed Shehzad
Babar Azam
Harris Sohail
Shoaib Malik
Imad Wasim
Fahim Ashraf
Shadab Khan
Mohammad Amir
Hasan Ali
Junaid/Wahab
 
Ellipsism said:
I know Fahim's ability as a wicket taking bowler, and there isn't much there. Fahim has a weak action that significantly lowers the amount of bounce he gets and a terrible wrist position and not to mention his lollipop pace. He doesn't offer much with the ball.

I'm not term Junaid as some supreme wicket taker he's rubbish, however, his wicket taking ability greatly supersedes Fahim.

I've seen enough of Fahim to pass down a judgement and the majority would agree with me that he isn't a third seamer. Saj himself mentioned that he was a bowler that oppositions will go after. Pakistan can't afford to have such as a bowler as you and I both know Pak's ability to chase totals above 300.
Click to expand...

Who is the better bowler ? Fahim Ashraf or Rumman Raees ?
 
Why not play Abbas, Hassan, Aamer, Fahim. Spinners should be Shadab, Imad, Shoaib, Hafeez, Harris, and Azhar.... Sarfaraz should bowl a over or two of pace himself.
 
The real question is should Imad Wasim play? He is a nobody with the bat or with the ball like we saw in the warm up game, his recent record against the big guns is extremely poor and his bowling is ineffective because he doesn't turn it both ways...

Fahim Ashraf should play instead of Imad wasim, we already have 3 spinners in Malik, Hafeez and Shoaib Malik, Fahim who can share the quota of the 5th bowler... Shadab, Junaid, Amir and Hassan can bowl the other 10 overs...
 
XI for India will look like this:
Fakhar/Azhar/Hafeez
Shehzad
Babar
Malik
Haris/Hafeez
Sarf
Imad
Fahim
Amir
Hasan
Wahab/Junaid

Hafeez will definitely play. There are two spots open. Batsman and fast bowler. Fahim's performance has thrown Shadab out.

It will depend on practice match. Whoever bats best between Fakhar, Azhar and Harris will play.

Wahab will play due to seniority. Unless he is injured. In that case, Junaid comes in.
 
Ellipsism said:
I know Fahim's ability as a wicket taking bowler, and there isn't much there. Fahim has a weak action that significantly lowers the amount of bounce he gets and a terrible wrist position and not to mention his lollipop pace. He doesn't offer much with the ball.

I'm not term Junaid as some supreme wicket taker he's rubbish, however, his wicket taking ability greatly supersedes Fahim.

I've seen enough of Fahim to pass down a judgement and the majority would agree with me that he isn't a third seamer. Saj himself mentioned that he was a bowler that oppositions will go after. Pakistan can't afford to have such as a bowler as you and I both know Pak's ability to chase totals above 300.
Click to expand...

"Pass down judgement" is very apt yes. Where is this majority? And what does it have to do with evidence? Again, it's great that you have seen these things but they don't help explain how he tops domestic leagues bowling stats two tourney's running. I don't know whether he is good enough to be a third bowler but is surely good enough - and then some - to be selected as an allrounder.
 
New Yorker said:
"Pass down judgement" is very apt yes. Where is this majority? And what does it have to do with evidence? Again, it's great that you have seen these things but they don't help explain how he tops domestic leagues bowling stats two tourney's running. I don't know whether he is good enough to be a third bowler but is surely good enough - and then some - to be selected as an allrounder.
Click to expand...
Apart from his five-fer against the mighty batting lineup of Sindh in the Pakistan Cup he was useless.

Do you know the conditions in which the regional/departmental OD tournamnets were played in?

He isn't good enough as a third seamer, period. He's a bits and pieces cricketer that has some batting ability.

We're much better off investing in Hussain Talat who is a genuine batsman and can bwl 3-4 overs.
 
I would take a risk and play the following team
1 fakhar
2 hafeez
3 babar
4 malik
5 sarfaraz
6 shadab
7 imad
8 fahim
9 hasan
10 amir
11 junaid

Although it's a tight call between wahab and junaid. Junaid is playing on game by game basis and hopefully the sight of him may induce some rashness in kohlI. If jk doesn't deliver he is out for game 2.

It may not go well for shadab imad or fahim but if shadab lands couple of googlies right and Imad continues his trend of doing well with the ball in first couple of games against teams, we r in business.
In reality one of the 3 will get dropped for shezzy/ Azhar but they likely to score 40 off 60 which I would back shadab imad to be able to do
 
We need to realise that in this squad our best three pacers are Hasan, Amir and Junaid.

Junaid on his day is a match winner and he has this unique skill of getting that one "Key" wicket from batting line up that can leave its impact on the overall confidence of the opposition. Kohli, Sangakkara, Gayle in PSL, Warner in Australia ( I know it happened twice only but it mattered both times).

If any of these 3 pacers doesn't perform, he should be replaced by Abbas. Wahab should be the last option. This cup is for youngsters, throw them in, let them have the flavour of big matches, I am confident they will not disappoint us.

After a long long time, I m confident going into a mega event that couple of big teams will be in for a rude surprise against us and to make it happen 8 to 11 should be locked by following 4 for the first 3 matches.

Fahim
Hasan
Aamir
Junaid
 
hitthestump said:
Surely this means playing the extra bowler instead?
Click to expand...

Nope. Flat pitches effectively negate the bowler's impact, and even if you play ten bowlers, they will all be smashed to all parts of the ground. Better to score more runs than restrict the opposition.
 
sadida97 said:
Who would you want to play as your third seamer ?

Do you think we should take a risk and play fahim, as his batting can be important ?

Wahab will provide you with pace, but again he is too expensive.

Junaid is also quite expensive at times.

So can fahim be useful ?
Click to expand...

Junaid took 4 wickets. I think against India we should drop a spinner. take one from Imad/SHadab and play all four seamers M Amir, Junaid, Hasan Ali and Fahim Ashraf. Sorry no place for Wahab. 5 batsmen plus Sarfraz, and then Fahim Imad M amir give us a deep batting order and enough fire power in bowling dept as well
 
After a long long time I'm optimistic about the Pakistan team all thanks to that Fahim blitz and Hasan's valuable contribution to the partnership. I hope it is not another false dawn and actually amounts to something. We really need to overcome the torturous eras of Misbah and Azhar.
 
For the first time in almost as long 7 years, I am actually looking or forward to lock horns with India at an ICC event.

I am so pumped right now and I can probably go and fight a polar bear :wasim :akhtar :imran :waqar :junaid :wahab :amir
 
Ellipsism said:
Apart from his five-fer against the mighty batting lineup of Sindh in the Pakistan Cup he was useless.

Do you know the conditions in which the regional/departmental OD tournamnets were played in?

He isn't good enough as a third seamer, period. He's a bits and pieces cricketer that has some batting ability.

We're much better off investing in Hussain Talat who is a genuine batsman and can bwl 3-4 overs.
Click to expand...

Sigh.Do you realize how convoluted are these arguments. So he was useless except when he took a 5fer in a final? Bad except when good. And for the umpteenth time, it does not matter what are the conditions in domestic tourneys if the objective is to make a comparative assessment of players. He was top wicket taker in two consecutive domestic tourneys. It would be a crime if he was not invested in.
 
New Yorker said:
Sigh.Do you realize how convoluted are these arguments. So he was useless except when he took a 5fer in a final? Bad except when good. And for the umpteenth time, it does not matter what are the conditions in domestic tourneys if the objective is to make a comparative assessment of players. He was top wicket taker in two consecutive domestic tourneys. It would be a crime if he was not invested in.
Click to expand...
First of all it wasn't in a final.

If you critically analyse his wickets in Pakistan Cup you would realise that 6/8 were taken when the batsman were hitting out.

If you had some cricketing knowledge I could explain but it seems your too obsessed with numbers and stats so I won't bother.
 
Ellipsism said:
First of all it wasn't in a final.

If you critically analyse his wickets in Pakistan Cup you would realise that 6/8 were taken when the batsman were hitting out.

If you had some cricketing knowledge I could explain but it seems your too obsessed with numbers and stats so I won't bother.
Click to expand...

ellipsism bhai ? who is the better bowler ? Fahim or Rumman Raees ?
 
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