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A thoughtful reflection on Pakistan’s fast bowling evolution post-1999 WC earns this week's Post of the Week—blending nostalgia with sharp insight on potential vs. achievement. Congratulations to @DeadlyVenom

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Thread 'Rank the next tier of Pakistan pace bowlers (after the Wasim/Waqar era) in order of their achievements and legacy'

i've seen a few posts where people have mentioned that bowler X was better than bowler Y or achieved more.

I'm mainly aiming these at the post Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib era, those three were probably the last batch of All format great bowlers we had. For a simple cut off we can call it bowlers who didn't play in 1999 WC.

These are the bowlers that have sprung to mind as the main characters since then and the next tier of bowlers after our best fast bowling era ( forgive me if I have missed any), memory is probably fresher for newer bowlers than older, some are in the list just because they...
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DeadlyVenom said:
i've seen a few posts where people have mentioned that bowler X was better than bowler Y or achieved more.

I'm mainly aiming these at the post Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib era, those three were probably the last batch of All format great bowlers we had. For a simple cut off we can call it bowlers who didn't play in 1999 WC.

These are the bowlers that have sprung to mind as the main characters since then and the next tier of bowlers after our best fast bowling era ( forgive me if I have missed any), memory is probably fresher for newer bowlers than older, some are in the list just because they had a memorable performance even though they didn't play much ( cheema and Rumman for eg)

  • Mohammad Asif
  • Mohammad Amir
  • Umar Gul
  • Wahab Riaz
  • Junaid Khan
  • Sohail Tanvir
  • Hasan Ali
  • Shaheen Shah Afridi
  • Naseem Shah
  • Mohammad Abbas
  • Mohammad Sami
  • Mohammad Irfan
  • Haris Rauf
  • Mohammad Hasnain
  • Rana Naved-ul-Hasan
  • Aizaz Cheema
  • Rumman Raees
    Imran Khan Sr
Here is my top picks from this list not just in terms of potential but also achievements too.

1. Umar Gul - his record in LOI speaks for himself and for a sustained patch he was our premier bowler than we had faith in to win us matches single handedly. It didn't translate into test as much as LOI but he had some commendable performances.
2.Mohammed Amir - banned, bitter, and a bad end to his career but he had some great moments. A real case of what might have been. He will always be remembered for two great peformances in ICC finals, alongside his very low points too.
3. Hassan Ali - He gets criticism, some deserved, but he pulled out the stops in our memorable champions trophy win
4. Junaid - he really should have played more and achieved more, who really knows what the reasons behind his downfall were.
5. Wahab - scattergun, but has some memorable performances across all formats.
6. Shaheen - Will likely move up the ranks as his career progresses but this is a fair reflection of where he is at the moment.
7. Asif - for poetry and artisty he be number 1 in my eyes but has not too muich to show for his career in terms of tangible achievements.

I could continue but there isnt much between the players.
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Congratulations, @DeadlyVenom. :inti

3idiots-kya-baat-hai.gif
 
A great poster as always, gives thought and meaning to each post and is one of the few who brings a wealth of experience and energy into discussions.

Well done @DeadlyVenom
 
Great post bro.

Cricketers from the past didn’t have the benefit of the DRS system.

If you watch some of the old tests were the 2 W’s bowled so many decisions went against them. If DRS was around back then i think even Waqar would have gained another 100 extra wickets in tests as a minimum.
 
DV's takes are usually sane and well considered so always a worthy winner, although recalling some of those names are putting me in a cold sweat !

Aizaz Cheema was somewhat wasted by PCB. He was debuted past his prime at age 31 (official) having dominated the domestic bowling charts for years. Apparently he was a lot quicker when he was younger. He helped win us the 2012 Asia Cup.

Sohail Khan was genuinely quick in his early days but after injuries reinvented himself into a classic English style swing bowler. He had a beautiful outswinger and I remember him performing well in England in 2016. Decent tailend batsman too. However after his second and third spells would emit as much CO2 as a Chinese city due to his poor fitness.

Tanvir Ahmed bowled on some unforgiving pitches but my abiding memory is him yelping like Sharapova after a big serve bowling his 80mph fare.
 
This is disrespectful to posters like Momin bhai who take their time out to write long, well articulated, well researched posts and yet a casual like Deadly walks away with it for a random post.
 
great post @DeadlyVenom

My two cents' worth is that Mohammad Irfan is massively underrated. This guy didn't play professional cricket until he was 28, yet went on to take over 100 international wickets, and at his prime, was truly a sight to behold. He also encapsulates the embodiment of that age-old Pakistani trope "galli galli mein talent hai, bus chance nahin milta." While I don't believe that to be totally true, Irfan was certainly the exception. It's a shame to think what a bowler he could have become had he been discovered and nurtured 10 years earlier. Yet, until his frame couldn't handle his stature, he bowled well against nearly every team he came up against. im glad that despite his humble origins, league cricket and playing for pakistan likely brought him some well-deserved financial security.
 
ElRaja said:
great post @DeadlyVenom

My two cents' worth is that Mohammad Irfan is massively underrated. This guy didn't play professional cricket until he was 28, yet went on to take over 100 international wickets, and at his prime, was truly a sight to behold. He also encapsulates the embodiment of that age-old Pakistani trope "galli galli mein talent hai, bus chance nahin milta." While I don't believe that to be totally true, Irfan was certainly the exception. It's a shame to think what a bowler he could have become had he been discovered and nurtured 10 years earlier. Yet, until his frame couldn't handle his stature, he bowled well against nearly every team he came up against. im glad that despite his humble origins, league cricket and playing for pakistan likely brought him some well-deserved financial security.
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Can't believe I forgot about him. He had some ups and downs. Wasn't there a fundraiser online to buy him shoes ? Then a debut where he came straight off the plane in England and got injured, before making a comeback against India in aane do series. I remember vividly Yuvrajs facial expression after one of his delivery. I'll try to find a YouTube clip.

@kingusama92 Rao is another missed player. It's amazing when you look back. Some genius in PP gave him the nickname of Roa Constrictor. What a genius name. He wasn't bad but were naively in the pace is pace phase and our own fans talked down these players.

@Markhor - Sohail Khan. I forgot him too what a cult legend. Took a 5fer in 2016 after being benched in the first two tests ( I'm sure Wahab did a similar thing at one point too in a series in England). And Gave the iconic "Kohli apne ghar ka Kohli ho ga" line that sent us into hysterics and. Rahat Ali played in 2016 too. Man he could have been something, decent pace, height , bounce and could move the ball but just wasn't cut out mentally.

Funny you mention Tanvir Ahmed. I have a hazy memory of defending one of his spells on PP, perhaps against South Africa and @James mentioning it was embarrassing that Pakistan gave him the new ball.

Good days. Our standards were high, most of these guys let us down lol, but it was good banter and helped build a cricket community, at that time despite these players we used to mock Indians, 70mph productions was a legendary vid and @ElRaja picture of a battered Ishant Sharma still lives on in Pakistan cricket fandom. Now the pendulum has swung dramatically, hopefully it swings back again.
 
Great post @DeadlyVenom, I don't come around much anymore but when I do, DV is one of the names that I look out for.

This is one of my favourite topics. Junaid Khan was my fav bowler of his time and I was kinda crazy about him. Even made a couple of threads just about him. His downfall is certainly to do with his injury in 2014 which took his venom out of him. Went from being a pacy swing bowler to a trundler. Although he did good to return for the victorious CT17 campaign but he just was not good enough anymore unfortunately. He was undoubtedly one of the best bowlers in the world in 2013 and performed well both home and away, besides the CT that year of course. And he deserves more credit for Pak going to India and smoking them in 2012. Bro bullied their infamous top order in every single ODI game. Made Kohli his bunny. I think he had the greatest potential to be the best in the modern era, next to Mo Amir ofc, who is still amongst the top bowlers in the country.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Can't believe I forgot about him. He had some ups and downs. Wasn't there a fundraiser online to buy him shoes ? Then a debut where he came straight off the plane in England and got injured, before making a comeback against India in aane do series. I remember vividly Yuvrajs facial expression after one of his delivery. I'll try to find a YouTube clip.

@kingusama92 Rao is another missed player. It's amazing when you look back. Some genius in PP gave him the nickname of Roa Constrictor. What a genius name. He wasn't bad but were naively in the pace is pace phase and our own fans talked down these players.

@Markhor - Sohail Khan. I forgot him too what a cult legend. Took a 5fer in 2016 after being benched in the first two tests ( I'm sure Wahab did a similar thing at one point too in a series in England). And Gave the iconic "Kohli apne ghar ka Kohli ho ga" line that sent us into hysterics and. Rahat Ali played in 2016 too. Man he could have been something, decent pace, height , bounce and could move the ball but just wasn't cut out mentally.

Funny you mention Tanvir Ahmed. I have a hazy memory of defending one of his spells on PP, perhaps against South Africa and @James mentioning it was embarrassing that Pakistan gave him the new ball.

Good days. Our standards were high, most of these guys let us down lol, but it was good banter and helped build a cricket community, at that time despite these players we used to mock Indians, 70mph productions was a legendary vid and @ElRaja picture of a battered Ishant Sharma still lives on in Pakistan cricket fandom. Now the pendulum has swung dramatically, hopefully it swings back again.
Click to expand...
rahat ali was easily the most frustrating of all the pakistani pacers, natural shape into the right handers, and away from the lefties, and pitched everything half way down the track, lol. the best part of it all imo is the consistency with which each one of these talents was hyped, and ended up disapointing for the most part.

i remeber that post too, with ishant sharma, i think i ended up playing the biggent anti jinx on the indian bowling line up cos after that shami, yadav and sharma, and laterly bumrah became worldies, lol. however once bumrah has retired im pretty sure that post will be bump worthy, cos i dont see any decent talent following bumrah.
 
Junaid was the best one in that era that had the wicket taking instincts+heart+workhorse mentality. Always felt the management was always looking for an excuse to drop him. Wasn't given a single game in 2011 wc, then once he had established himself in the longer formats, he wasn't given enough chances in t20is despite having economy rate under 7 in t20s. Then that awful knee injury occurred in late 2014, and he was discarded after less than 2 series. Then got a recall in 2017, but Mickey just kept shoving Wahab Riaz ahead of him despite him getting more wickets in all the ODIs and was then finally dropped for good right before the 2019 wc.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Junaid was the best one in that era that had the wicket taking instincts+heart+workhorse mentality. Always felt the management was always looking for an excuse to drop him. Wasn't given a single game in 2011 wc, then once he had established himself in the longer formats, he wasn't given enough chances in t20is despite having economy rate under 7 in t20s. Then that awful knee injury occurred in late 2014, and he was discarded after less than 2 series. Then got a recall in 2017, but Mickey just kept shoving Wahab Riaz ahead of him despite him getting more wickets in all the ODIs and was then finally dropped for good right before the 2019 wc.
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Yes. I feel like Junaid wasn't utilized correctly. He didn't get enough chances for some reason.

Same with Usman Shinwari. He had great averages but he somehow didn't get many opportunities.
 
sweep_shot said:
Yes. I feel like Junaid wasn't utilized correctly. He didn't get enough chances for some reason.

Same with Usman Shinwari. He had great averages but he somehow didn't get many opportunities.
Click to expand...
Shinwari was a bit of a loose canon. Either very good or very bad with nothing in between. Also had chronic injury issues that ended his career prematurely.
Another casualty to the selectors and PCB politics was a guy called Sadaf Hussain. Wreaked absolute havoc in FC cricket. Had spent majority of his FC averaging under 18 yet was never picked due to supposed lack of pace yet the likes of superquicks Tanvir Ahmed, Ehsan Adil, Asad Ali, Imran Khan etc all got international caps.
 
BunnyRabbit said:
Junaid was the best one in that era that had the wicket taking instincts+heart+workhorse mentality. Always felt the management was always looking for an excuse to drop him. Wasn't given a single game in 2011 wc, then once he had established himself in the longer formats, he wasn't given enough chances in t20is despite having economy rate under 7 in t20s. Then that awful knee injury occurred in late 2014, and he was discarded after less than 2 series. Then got a recall in 2017, but Mickey just kept shoving Wahab Riaz ahead of him despite him getting more wickets in all the ODIs and was then finally dropped for good right before the 2019 wc.
Click to expand...
That knee injury was massive for Junaid. Similar to Shaheen’s before WT20 2022.

Neither were the same after. Pace for both dropped, PCB I would say prob had a hand in botched recovery for both.

Before that injury tho Junaid and Irfan were both in 140s and we would’ve won that SA series too had we a batting order just slightly more durable than a wet paper bag.
 
Suleiman said:
That knee injury was massive for Junaid. Similar to Shaheen’s before WT20 2022.

Neither were the same after. Pace for both dropped, PCB I would say prob had a hand in botched recovery for both.

Before that injury tho Junaid and Irfan were both in 140s and we would’ve won that SA series too had we a batting order just slightly more durable than a wet paper bag.
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Irfan was pretty quick from late 2012-14. Consistently around 145. Atm it seemed like Mickey had some vendetta against both Junaid and Irfan. As soon he took charge, Irfan was discarded permanently after 1 game and Junaid never got the backing from the management that Amir, Wahab and even Sohail Khan enjoyed. People overrate Mickey's tenure due to CT victory. But we had become below average in tests under him. Even lost a test series against SL and NZ in UAE under him despite having a peak Yasir.
 
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