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"This is India's best ever group of bowlers" : Darren Gough

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Do you agree with Gough's assessment or has there been a better group in Indian bowling history?
 
Srinath, Zak and Nehra for a very brief period of time. They were deadly. Although this particular group itself is without Bhuvi who is supposed to be the frontline bowler of this attack. But as a bowling which has travelled to England, perhaps this is close to the best.
 
Abey Kuruvilla, D Mohanty, Doda Ganesh and Robin Singh briefly back in late 90s -- what an attack ;)
 
Majid Khan said:
Abey Kuruvilla, D Mohanty, Doda Ganesh and Robin Singh briefly back in late 90s -- what an attack ;)
Click to expand...

Frightening pace in that line-up.

The huge Kuruvilla who looked like he could bowl 90mph but barely reached 80mph.
 
Zaheer, Kumble and Bhajji was a top class bowling trioka.

The problem was the 4th and 5th bowlers.

Few like Nehra, RP Singh, Irfan did well for brief periods. And when they did India usually did well.

But because of the lack of good 4th and 5th bowlers, Indian bowling was never consistent, especially away from home.

But with present day Ishant, Shami, Bhuvi, Bumrah India finally have 4 international quality fast bowlers playing together.

And obviously with the number 1 and number 2 ranked spinners in the world, spin bowling is covered, as always.

I still feel Pandya needs to perform more consistently to be in ideal 5th bowler.

But yes, this is the best ever Indian bowling attack not only because of the quality but also because of the variety - swing, seam, bounce, spin - India has every department covered.
 
India certainly has a captain now who knows how to utilise his pace reserves. MS Dhoni for all the hype was a pathetic handler of our bowling reserves. If you ask Bhaijaan Dhoni had way more potent pace attack as well as soon options but he waisted it all.

Dhoni had peak Seeesanth, peak RP Singh, peak Zaheer.

He had Praveen Kumar who was superior version of Bhuvneshwar Kumar.

He had young and fresh Varun Aaron, Umesh Yadav, Ishant Sharma, Bhuvaneshwari

He got Shami , Bhuvneshwar, Irfan, Munaf


As captain Dhoni was nt able to make even one of those guys bring their best.



Just 2 years of Kohli and see the difference he’s brought. Bhuvneshwar and Ishant are both different beasts under Kohli. Umesh also getting better.


Just a matter of time before Kohli unleashes Mavi, Nagarkotti now.
 
Majid Khan said:
Abey Kuruvilla, D Mohanty, Doda Ganesh and Robin Singh briefly back in late 90s -- what an attack ;)
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Well, Anwar was Mohanty's bunny :D

And no wonder u lot remember Kuru and Mohanty as we gave u a thumping with these 2 bowlers in Toronto :D
 
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Shami, Bumrah, Ishant, Bhuvi and Ashwin can serve India for another 2-3 years, so good signs for the future.
 
Majid Khan said:
Abey Kuruvilla, D Mohanty, Doda Ganesh and Robin Singh briefly back in late 90s -- what an attack ;)
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True and still you couldn't beat us once in the WCs throughout 90s , giving 5fer to Venkatesh Prassad.
 
They were showing graphics that indicated that slowest of Indian fast bowlers is faster than England's fastest. That is not something you see frequently. Good days of Indian bowling.
 
I guess this is the reward for investing heavily in the MRF pace academies and some very good coaches working with the Indian young bowlers.
 
Saj said:
I guess this is the reward for investing heavily in the MRF pace academies and some very good coaches working with the Indian young bowlers.
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Don't think MRF did anything, investing in root system and selection of cricketers from tier -2 cities, towns has helped.
 
These are bowling friendly conditions. Let me know when the Indian pace attack runs through teams on dead UAE type wickets
 
If anything, I feel adopting Virat Kohli's ruthless fitness mantra has done wonders for Indian Cricket overall especially the pace attack. Speeds have gone up with the increased fitness. Something for our players to learn from.
 
Savak said:
These are bowling friendly conditions. Let me know when the Indian pace attack runs through teams on dead UAE type wickets
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Lol Indian cricketers have to go through such thresholds on PP , Kohli needs to perform in test, then needs to perform outside Asia, then needs to perform in England, then needs to get avg overall 40 in England.

Now bowlers, should bowl well outside India, should bowl well in SA, should bowl well in England and now in UAE , then they should go back in time bowl to VIV and Bradman?
 
Without BK, this will be an incomplete for English conditions.

BK
Bumrah
Shami
Ishant
Ashwin

The best pace attack in a long long time for India.
 
Sanzcool said:
Well, Anwar was Mohanty's bunny :D

And no wonder u lot remember Kuru and Mohanty as we gave u a thumping with these 2 bowlers in Toronto :D
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JaDed said:
True and still you couldn't beat us once in the WCs throughout 90s , giving 5fer to Venkatesh Prassad.
Click to expand...

So to carry on from what you two said, imagine this being your best bowling lineup and being humiliated by Fakhar Zaman :))
 
JaDed said:
Lol Indian cricketers have to go through such thresholds on PP , Kohli needs to perform in test, then needs to perform outside Asia, then needs to perform in England, then needs to get avg overall 40 in England.

Now bowlers, should bowl well outside India, should bowl well in SA, should bowl well in England and now in UAE , then they should go back in time bowl to VIV and Bradman?
Click to expand...

Pakistani players go through these tests as well.
 
Savak said:
These are bowling friendly conditions. Let me know when the Indian pace attack runs through teams on dead UAE type wickets
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Apparently Gough doesn't think so. This bowling line up outbowled Anderson/Broad/Woakes/Stokes. They bowl south africa out below 200 3 out of 6 times. They did the same to England twice here. That too with missing their frontline bowler.
 
Saj said:
I guess this is the reward for investing heavily in the MRF pace academies and some very good coaches working with the Indian young bowlers.
Click to expand...

FYI Srinath, Prasad and most of the other folks (the ones you said were of 'frightening pace') came out of MRF pace academy. So did Chaminda Vaas and Heath Streak. There are no 'very good coaches' per se. McGrath is a consultant, earlier it was Lillie. The reason for the pace resurgence is the shift in culture - more emphasis on non metro cities and IPL bringing in money for local boards to invest in local academies. Manjrekar recently said, he went to a cricket academy and the number of young kids lining up to be a pace bowler was far higher than the ones lining up to be a batsman. This was never the case in India. Pakistan always had fast bowling heroes in Imran, Sarfaraz, Wasim and Waqar (and Fazal Mahmood tbh, the first one who started it all) but India never had much to show in that regard. MRF pace academy is not a fast bowler producing factory. It is a place where bowlers with some amount of potential go and hone their skills.
 
Savak said:
Pakistani players go through these tests as well.
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The threads here seem otherwise, Umar Akmal and Ahmed Shehzad are classic examples, how many threads did you see for Karun Nairs triple ton here?
 
InziRules said:
So to carry on from what you two said, imagine this being your best bowling lineup and being humiliated by Fakhar Zaman :))
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Yes but are you saying Fakhar zaman is equivalent of Kuruvilaa in batting?
I didn't know you thought that low of him..
 
Any sentence having "ever" in it has very low chances of being true.
Maybe in last 5 years, this is the best attack.

Gough is just sensationalizing.
 
BaankeJi said:
Any sentence having "ever" in it has very low chances of being true.
Maybe in last 5 years, this is the best attack.

Gough is just sensationalizing.
Click to expand...

It is the most well-rounded test attack, though.

Bowlers who can bowl at 90 mph - Shami Bumrah, Umesh
Bowlers who can swing it away - Bhuvi, Umesh, Pandya
Bowlers who can swing it in - Ishant, Bumrah
Reverse swing - Shami
Right Arm Spinner - Ashwin
Left Arm Spinner - Jadeja
Wrist Spinner - Kuldeep

And every single fast bowler bowls 85+ mph.

For sheer variety of attack, this Indian bowling line-up is unparalleled.
 
the_outsider said:
It is the most well-rounded test attack, though.

Bowlers who can bowl at 90 mph - Shami Bumrah, Umesh
Bowlers who can swing it away - Bhuvi, Umesh, Pandya
Bowlers who can swing it in - Ishant, Bumrah
Reverse swing - Shami
Right Arm Spinner - Ashwin
Left Arm Spinner - Jadeja
Wrist Spinner - Kuldeep

And every single fast bowler bowls 85+ mph.

For sheer variety of attack, this Indian bowling line-up is unparalleled.
Click to expand...

It is also important for the unparalleled bowling attack to have bowlers who can remain fit. Bumrah just got fit. Bhuvi is injured. Shami wasn't fit before. It lets bowlers and trundlers like Shardul keep getting into the squad again and again. For an important tour like this bowlers should have avoided playing in Pyjama Leagues and kept themselves fit.
 
India has a decent bowling attack to be fair, but is there potential in these current Indian pacers to some day be classed alongside the truly 'world class' fast bowlers produced by West Indies, Pakistan, Australia, South Africa, England with 350+ test wickets at a bowling average less than 25 - ripping apart batting line ups with lethal spells taking 5-fers, not so sure on that one... But still good prospects by Indian pace bowling standards, that is for sure. .. India has definitely come a long way since the days of Kuruvilla :)
 
Majid Khan said:
India has a decent bowling attack to be fair, but is there potential in these current Indian pacers to some day be classed alongside the truly 'world class' fast bowlers produced by West Indies, Pakistan, Australia, South Africa, England with 350+ test wickets at a bowling average less than 25 - ripping apart batting line ups with lethal spells taking 5-fers, not so sure on that one... But still good prospects by Indian pace bowling standards, that is for sure. .. India has definitely come a long way since the days of Kuruvilla :)
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That era is gone. These are the times where 80mph trundlers averaging mid-30s represent
the proud nation of Pakistan. Some of them are even celebrated as the second coming of Wasim.

A sub-25 average with 350+ wickets is no longer the criteria for being world class.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
It is also important for the unparalleled bowling attack to have bowlers who can remain fit. Bumrah just got fit. Bhuvi is injured. Shami wasn't fit before. It lets bowlers and trundlers like Shardul keep getting into the squad again and again. For an important tour like this bowlers should have avoided playing in Pyjama Leagues and kept themselves fit.
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I agree totally. Bhuvi should never have played the 3rd Odi.

In fairness though, most fast bowlers around the world are struggling with fitness nowadays.

Starc
Hazlewood
Cummins
Amir
Hasan
Milne
Southie
Mustafiizur
Taskin
Rubel
Steyn
Morkel

And practically every single Sri Lankan pacer have all had injuries in the last couple of years.

Clearly, all boards need to manage thwir players' workload much better.
 
BlackShadow said:
A sub-25 average with 350+ wickets is no longer the criteria for being world class.
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Of course , cricket has changed - I forgot - these days Zaheer Khan with a test bowling average of 33 is seen as a world class bowler of his time and probably among the fast bowling greats of world cricket, never mind just Indian cricket.
 
Majid Khan said:
Of course , cricket has changed - I forgot - these days Zaheer Khan with a test bowling average of 33 is seen as a world class bowler of his time and probably among the fast bowling greats of world cricket, never mind just Indian cricket.
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C Vaas averaged 29 and he is considered on of the SC greats.

B Lee averaged 31 despite playing in much better conditions and people consider him of the best of modern day cricket.

J Anderson has played in the most helpful conditions a swing bowler can find on God's great earth and still averages almost 27.

Only 20 pacers have taken more test wickets than Zaheer in over 150 years of cricket. That puts him in the top 1% of of all bowlers who have played cricket.

Zaheer Khan may not be an ATG but he certainly is an Asian ATG and one of the finest bowlers of the last 20 years.
 
JaDed said:
Don't think MRF did anything, investing in root system and selection of cricketers from tier -2 cities, towns has helped.
Click to expand...

Bhuvaneshwar, Maavi etc are from Meerut, may be a Tier-4 City.


Umesh- Tier- 2/3

Bumrah-Ishant-Shami Tier-1
 
the_outsider said:
C Vaas averaged 29 and he is considered on of the SC greats.

B Lee averaged 31 despite playing in much better conditions and people consider him of the best of modern day cricket.

J Anderson has played in the most helpful conditions a swing bowler can find on God's great earth and still averages almost 27.

Only 20 pacers have taken more test wickets than Zaheer in over 150 years of cricket. That puts him in the top 1% of of all bowlers who have played cricket.

Zaheer Khan may not be an ATG but he certainly is an Asian ATG and one of the finest bowlers of the last 20 years.
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I agree with everything except this bit. If he was an Asian ATG, he would be able to find a place in a first or second ATG Asian XI side but I think he falls short like Inzamam from a batting perspective.
 
Darren Gough is right but this was evident for the last couple of years or so. India's pace bowling has been on the up since 2015 world cup which had the best bowling attack of all the Indian world cup sides in their history.
 
topspin said:
I agree with everything except this bit. If he was an Asian ATG, he would be able to find a place in a first or second ATG Asian XI side but I think he falls short like Inzamam from a batting perspective.
Click to expand...

But there can be more than 22 ATG players from 4 SC countries, right? Especially after 70 years of Asian cricket.

I considered Zaheer an Asian ATG because he is the 6th highest wicket taker among Asian pacers and 9th highest overall in Asia.

If someone is a top 10 bowler from the largest cricketing continent in the world, does he not deserve an ATG tag?
 
lehen said:
Bhuvaneshwar, Maavi etc are from Meerut, may be a Tier-4 City.


Umesh- Tier- 2/3

Bumrah-Ishant-Shami Tier-1
Click to expand...

Actually Shami is from a small town in UP. Not even tier 4.

He moved to Bengal much later and learnt most of his bowling in UP.
 
India gets extraordinary applauds when they win and extraordinary criticism when they loose. They deserve neither. It's a good team with good bowlers who are managed pretty well by Kohli. But the number of loose balls Sharma and Shami bowl, ll mean they will always average around 30 in best case scenarios for them. I don't know of any great bowler who will bowl a delivery outside leg stump to Butler when he's on 99. Just shows that they have talent to take wickets but not enough control to be considered world's best.
 
topspin said:
I agree with everything except this bit. If he was an Asian ATG, he would be able to find a place in a first or second ATG Asian XI side but I think he falls short like Inzamam from a batting perspective.
Click to expand...

Inzamam may fall short to find a place in the first x1 but he certainly makes the 2nd x1 asian team
 
Comparing zaheer to inzamam is criminal.
Inzimam is a borderline atg whereas zaheer is just a good bowler who is hyped up bcoz india had no other good bowler at that time.
 
Ishant has stepped it up in Tests a lot the last 3 4 years. Was trash from like 2009-2014. Seems to be doing better under Kohli. Shami always been a good bowler just unlucky with injuries. And Yadav is hot n cold. I think Pandya whilst a great showing at Trent Bridge still needs more consistency.
 
jeeteshssaxena said:
Comparing zaheer to inzamam is criminal.
Inzimam is a borderline atg whereas zaheer is just a good bowler who is hyped up bcoz india had no other good bowler at that time.
Click to expand...

I never said Zaheer is an ATG. I said he is an Asian ATG.

He is the 6th highest wicket taker among Asian pacers. Which means he makes it into the 2nd Asian ATG-XI as the 3rd pacer.
 
If Gough is speaking only of pace bowlers, he may have a point.

But if not, then we once had Chandra, Bedi, Prasanna, Venkat. They weren't half bad either.
 
the_outsider said:
I never said Zaheer is an ATG. I said he is an Asian ATG.

He is the 6th highest wicket taker among Asian pacers. Which means he makes it into the 2nd Asian ATG-XI as the 3rd pacer.
Click to expand...

Not sure I would agree, if you are selecting among Asian pacers on wicket taking ability and match winning potential (and test bowling average and number of 5-wicket hauls is a good indicator of both these two factors) , then Zaheer Khan possibly might make it to 3rd Asian ATG XI - but definitely is not worthy of selection in the 1st and 2nd XI ahead of the following 8 pacers with more than 100+ test wickets, ranked in order of test bowling avg:

Imran Khan: 362 wickets @ 22.81 (23 five-wicket hauls)
Waqar Younis: 373 wickets @ 23.56 (22 five-wicket hauls)
Wasim Akram: 414 wickets @ 23.62 (25 five-wicket hauls)
Fazal Mahmood: 139 wickets @ 24.70 (13 five-wicket hauls)
Mohammed Asif: 106 wickets @ 24.36 (7 five-wicket hauls)
Shoaib Akhtar: 178 wickets @ 25.69 (12 five-wicket hauls)
Kapil Dev: 434 wickets @ 29.64 (23 five-wicket hauls)
Chaminda Vaas: 355 wickets @ 29.58 (12 five-wicket hauls)


And then you move onto the likes of Srinath and Zaheer Khan.

For the record, as well as the higher bowling average and strike rates, Zaheer Khan took just 11 five-wicket hauls in 92 tests - Shoaib Akhtar incidentally played exactly half that many tests in his career (46) and took more 5-wicket hauls. And interestingly Mohammed Asif played 23 tests which is exactly a quater of the number of tests played by Zaheer and took 7 five-wicket hauls.

What makes it also remkarkable feat by Pakistani bowlers of the 90s/2000s era to take so many 5-wicket hauls is that unlike say Kapil Dev who was the lone ranger in his bowling attack, the Pakistani quicks had to compete against each other and yet all of Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Asif, and spinners Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq et al managed to take plenty of big wicket hauls confirming their match winning abilities.

But the most impressive one of all for 5-fers was Fazal Mahmood - look at that record, 34 test matches only and he took 13-five wicket hauls and 4 - 10 wicket-hauls in tests - what a legend!

And the reason for the emphasis on 5-wicket hauls is simply because top class and ATG fast bowlers dont deal in 2-fers and 3-fers , they can rip apart batting line ups on their own :)
 
Majid Khan said:
Not sure I would agree, if you are selecting among Asian pacers on wicket taking ability and match winning potential (and test bowling average and number of 5-wicket hauls is a good indicator of both these two factors) , then Zaheer Khan possibly might make it to 3rd Asian ATG XI - but definitely is not worthy of selection in the 1st and 2nd XI ahead of the following 8 pacers with more than 100+ test wickets, ranked in order of test bowling avg:

Imran Khan: 362 wickets @ 22.81 (23 five-wicket hauls)
Waqar Younis: 373 wickets @ 23.56 (22 five-wicket hauls)
Wasim Akram: 414 wickets @ 23.62 (25 five-wicket hauls)
Fazal Mahmood: 139 wickets @ 24.70 (13 five-wicket hauls)
Mohammed Asif: 106 wickets @ 24.36 (7 five-wicket hauls)
Shoaib Akhtar: 178 wickets @ 25.69 (12 five-wicket hauls)
Kapil Dev: 434 wickets @ 29.64 (23 five-wicket hauls)
Chaminda Vaas: 355 wickets @ 29.58 (12 five-wicket hauls)


And then you move onto the likes of Srinath and Zaheer Khan.

For the record, as well as the higher bowling average and strike rates, Zaheer Khan took just 11 five-wicket hauls in 92 tests - Shoaib Akhtar incidentally played exactly half that many tests in his career (46) and took more 5-wicket hauls. And interestingly Mohammed Asif played 23 tests which is exactly a quater of the number of tests played by Zaheer and took 7 five-wicket hauls.

What makes it also remkarkable feat by Pakistani bowlers of the 90s/2000s era to take so many 5-wicket hauls is that unlike say Kapil Dev who was the lone ranger in his bowling attack, the Pakistani quicks had to compete against each other and yet all of Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Asif, and spinners Qadir, Saqlain, Mushtaq et al managed to take plenty of big wicket hauls confirming their match winning abilities.

But the most impressive one of all for 5-fers was Fazal Mahmood - look at that record, 34 test matches only and he took 13-five wicket hauls and 4 - 10 wicket-hauls in tests - what a legend!

And the reason for the emphasis on 5-wicket hauls is simply because top class and ATG fast bowlers dont deal in 2-fers and 3-fers , they can rip apart batting line ups on their own :)
Click to expand...

I didn't include Asif & Shoaib for one crucial factor that you didn't consider - longevity.

Longevity is one of the most important factors to determine greatness.

Shoaib's 5 wicket haul is extremely impressive. But you have to understand that while Pakistan relied on pacers as their strike bolwers, India has always used spinners as their strike bolwers.

But you're right about Fazal Mahmood. He definitely makes it into the ATG XI before Zaheer does.

So I was wrong about Zaheer making it into the ATG XIs. He doesn't.

PS: Apart from Asif, Fazal and Shoaib, even I had put all the other pacers ahead of Zaheer, obviously.
 
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Very impressive performance today.

Swung the ball, put the ball in the right areas and worked on the weaknesses of the English batsmen.
 
They have bowled well and been let down by batsmen.
 
They have bowled well but by no means are they a great attack. They let England score well over 200 in both innings on a bowlers wicket. And Ashwin was completely out bowled by Moeen. Trent Bridge was an abberation. Back to reality.
 
India's problem is their batting, not their bowling.

Funny how times change.
 
The Indian bowling attack has looked a very similar standard to, if not marginally better than, the England bowling attack on this tour - and in English conditions - so a lot of credit is due.

Less impressive has been the batting.
 
The bowlers have done well. The batting line up has been very poor other than Kohli.
 
I lol at the talk of India's biggest positive being their bowling attack and performances. These were bowling friendly conditions just like the ones Pakistan got in 2010 with Asif and Amir. In fact the Indian bowling attack is to be blamed for allowing England to recover from 86/6 to 270 all out in the first innings.

In fact Pakistan's 2-2 result in 2016 is severely under rated because in predominantly much flatter wickets our bowling attack spearheaded the team to two victories and on a bowling friendly wicket in 2018 our team beat England in their own conditions with an inexperienced team and not as highly ranked as Indian.

The Indian team came into this series with a number one ranking and with a so called aggressive captain in Kohli
 
Yes the bowlers have done well but time and again they have allowed England's lower order to score heavily.
 
Remember historically Indian pace bowling standards have been rather low despite all those clinics. Goughy is probably correct that this could be their best pace bowling attack ever. That is saying something when India are 3-1 down in the series:)):)):))
 
Allowing England to score 243 and 270 on this track is criminal.

Ashwin had a wicket ideally suited to spin and was outbowled by Moeen. A home track bully.
 
The Googly said:
Allowing England to score 243 and 270 on this track is criminal.

Ashwin had a wicket ideally suited to spin and was outbowled by Moeen. A home track bully.
Click to expand...

England have also played better than usual against the Indian spinners, historically they have been our undoing over and over again.
 
Not yet, there are some very good bowlers waiting in the wings. I am waiting for Mohammad Siraj making debut for India in Tests soon. Indian bowling is still very inconsistent. The perennial problem of not being able to dismiss the tail haunts India once again. We have lost two Tests in the series because of that very reason.

The best bowling attack for English conditions India had was in 2007 when Sreesanth, RP Singh and Zaheer Khan took the ball for India. Anil Kumble bowled well as well in that series. All three pacers were brilliant and England struggled with the around the wicket angle of both RP Singh and Zaheer Khan. Unfortunately RP Singh and SreeSanth never kicked on after that tour.
 
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