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This is Pakistan, Not India', Says Islamabad HC Chief Justice, Opposing Curbs on Free Speech

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New Delhi: Athar Minallah, the chief justice of the Islamabad high court, hearing a case related to charges of sedition and abetting terrorism on Monday, spoke about India, insinuating that the country had violated the constitutional rights of protesters in spite of being a democracy.

“Everyone’s constitutional rights will be protected. This is Pakistan, not India,” Justice Minallah reportedly said in court. He was hearing the bail petitions of 23 workers of the Awami Workers Party (AWP) and Pashtun Tahaffuz Movement (PTM), who were arrested by the Islamabad Police on January 28 for protesting the arrest of PTM chief and well known human rights activist Manzoor Pashteen.

An Al Jazeera report on January 28 had said that thousands of people took to streets across Pakistan, including capital Islamabad and the country’s largest city Karachi, to protest the arrest of Pashteen. He was taken into custody on January 27 in Peshawar.

Pashteen had accused the country’s military of human rights abuses in a speech delivered at Dera Ismail Khan earlier in January, for which the government pressed charges of sedition and “criminal conspiracy” against him. Thereafter, he was denied bail by a local court and has been in custody.

On January 28, the Islamabad Police arrested the protesters and pressed sedition charges on two of the prominent faces in the crowd – Mohsin Dawar, a lower house MP from North Waziristan and Ammar Rashid of the AWP. On February 2, though the government told the court that the sedition charge had been dropped against them, but Section 7 of the Anti-Terrorism Act (ATA), 1997 had been inserted into the FIR. It led Justice Minallah to seek an explanation from the magistrate on what grounds these charges were pressed against the protesters.

According to a news report in Dawn, on Monday morning, when the bail hearings resumed at the high court, Hamza Shafaqaat, Islamabad’s deputy commissioner, informed the chief justice that the government had dropped all charges against the protesters.

The report said, granting bail to the protesters, Justice Minallah stated, “We don’t expect that a democratic government will curb freedom of expression. An elected democratic government cannot place curbs on freedom of expression. (We) shouldn’t fear criticism.” He said, “The constitutional courts will protect the constitutional rights of the people. Everyone’s constitutional rights will be protected. This is Pakistan and not India.”

Though the judge did not explicitly make it known what he meant through the comment, it is likely a reference to the increasing usage of the sedition law against prominent youth leaders in India who have been questioning the government.

Justice Minallah further said, “If you want to protest, get permission (of the police). If you don’t get permission, the court is here.”

Arguing for pressing charges of terrorism on the protesters, Islamabad advocate general Tariq Mehmood Jahangir had stated that Pakistan had been fighting terrorism for two decades and the “secret agenda” of the protesters was worrisome. The news report quoted Jahangir as saying, “No one should say anything against the state,” and sought a written order against those who voice dissent or “make hate speeches”.

In response, Justice Minallah said that the state nor its institutions were “so weak” that mere words would have any impact.

Ammar Rashid of the AWP, one of the two protesters taken into custody, later tweeted, “Hope this sets a lasting precedent against the criminalization of dissent, peaceful protest and freedom of expression in our country (Pakistan)”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.thew...tests-islamabad-high-court-athar-minallah/amp
 
Its scary how little Islamabad HC knows about India. There is no violation of constitutional right to protest in India. Shaheen Bagh drama went for months and now farmers are protesting more than 80 days. Protesting peacefully is democratic right of every citizen in the country. But if someone takes the route of violence or makes sinister plot to defame India by tieing up with international agencies, action will be taken against them.
 
Nothing new. Pakistan has had two identities. One of being Pakistan, other of being NOT India. Being a Pakistani may or may not be a compliment, but NOT being an Indian is ALWAYS a compliment.
 
Pretty pathetic statement. From the judiciary to the common man, all are delusional! They cannot see the injustice Pakistanis especially those from minority groups are facing.

India as a country is freer than Pakistan. In this country, you cannot criticise the clergy and the military. Enforced disappearances are the norm of the land.
 
Pretty pathetic statement. From the judiciary to the common man, all are delusional! They cannot see the injustice Pakistanis especially those from minority groups are facing.

India as a country is freer than Pakistan. In this country, you cannot criticise the clergy and the military. Enforced disappearances are the norm of the land.

I would like you to migrate to Indian Occupied Kashmir and enjoy your freedom there:)

Ps: Minallah is an odd character.
 
Its scary how little Islamabad HC knows about India. There is no violation of constitutional right to protest in India. Shaheen Bagh drama went for months and now farmers are protesting more than 80 days. Protesting peacefully is democratic right of every citizen in the country. But if someone takes the route of violence or makes sinister plot to defame India by tieing up with international agencies, action will be taken against them.

I dont think you understand what the HC is talking about. Do you know how sedition law and UAPA is used in India? Thats what is being pointed towards.
 
Pretty pathetic statement. From the judiciary to the common man, all are delusional! They cannot see the injustice Pakistanis especially those from minority groups are facing.

India as a country is freer than Pakistan. In this country, you cannot criticise the clergy and the military. Enforced disappearances are the norm of the land.

As far away from reality as possible. Not surprising.
 
Damn. He showed them! Now, what about the Ahmedi's and the Shia's and the Christians and the Hindu's and the wrongly accused over blasphemy?
 
Damn. He showed them! Now, what about the Ahmedi's and the Shia's and the Christians and the Hindu's and the wrongly accused over blasphemy?

Have there been protests regarding those where protestors were not afforded their constitutional rights?
 
In order to make protest under the system, you'll need to take permission from the authority so that security arrangements are made prior in order to control the situation if something goes wrong. You'll also be permitted to protest under a pre designated area only.

If protests are made without the permission from concerned authority, then authority has every right to take steps against it as there comes the disruption of the law and order.

You can exercise freedom of speech after fulfilling certain conditions which will vary from country to country and even among societies.

If you get involved in a protest with no prior permission, then there's a high probability that you will be taken in to custody because that will be outside the domain that the constitution has given to you.
 
Yeah I can pull out thousands of articles suggesting otherwise :uak
Pakistan isn't exactly a mecca for freedom of speech and for all it's faults india is way better than Pak in that regard

But as usual I see people doing kahniyas :))
 
Pretty pathetic statement. From the judiciary to the common man, all are delusional! They cannot see the injustice Pakistanis especially those from minority groups are facing.

India as a country is freer than Pakistan. In this country, you cannot criticise the clergy and the military. Enforced disappearances are the norm of the land.

Don;t know where you are but I can bet not in India to enjoy the freedom there, particularly in IHK.

But at the same time, this guy Minallah is a nuts, he enjoys giving non-sense comments. HR situation in Pakistan is also not to be proud off, does not make sense to mention India here.
 
Don;t know where you are but I can bet not in India to enjoy the freedom there, particularly in IHK.

But at the same time, this guy Minallah is a nuts, he enjoys giving non-sense comments. HR situation in Pakistan is also not to be proud off, does not make sense to mention India here.

As long as you are exercising the constitutional rights within domain, you are free to voice. Even if authority takes unfair steps, you can address it via judiciary system.

Absolute Freedom of speech exists in utopian society which can not exist in reality as human are not perfect in itself. Hence, the constitution determines upto which boundaries you can exercise it. If you go outside, and authority takes action, then there's not much you can do about it because otherwise, same freedom of speech will abuse to its potential.

For example, cutting the internet is essential at times.
 
As long as you are exercising the constitutional rights within domain, you are free to voice. Even if authority takes unfair steps, you can address it via judiciary system. .

True .. that's a credit to India but what if the judiciary is compromised? Or to be specific .. saffronised...
 
True .. that's a credit to India but what if the judiciary is compromised? Or to be specific .. saffronised...

Lets take this example. In recent times, in which case, you feel that the Indian judiciary system is compromised?
 
Lets take this example. In recent times, in which case, you feel that the Indian judiciary system is compromised?

Ranjan Gogoi accepting the BJP's offer of a Rajya Sabha seat, barely months after retiring as Chief Justice.
 
How did it violated the Indian constitution?

It was a longstanding convention to avoid the appearance of corruption and maintain the independence of judiciary, now the PM has violated it. Why? What was the need to pick the the just-retired CJI out of 1.3 billion people ? Surely you aren't this naive.

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It was a longstanding convention to avoid the appearance of corruption and maintain the independence of judiciary, now the PM has violated it. Why? What was the need to pick the the just-retired CJI out of 1.3 billion people ? Surely you aren't this naive.

View attachment 107349

There is a difference between unconventional and violation of constitution.

My question was, did it violate the constitution of India?
 
There is a difference between unconventional and violation of constitution.

My question was, did it violate the constitution of India?

You don't need to violate the constituion to be unethical or corrupt .. cconventions exist for a reason , you don't see anything wrong with the ex-CJI accepting a govt allocated seat?
 
You don't need to violate the constituion to be unethical or corrupt .. cconventions exist for a reason , you don't see anything wrong with the ex-CJI accepting a govt allocated seat?

Unethical or being corrupt has specific procedural in constitution and punishment.

Convention is just convention. If we follow your same logic, then "sati" convention still would have been rampant in India society.

One person performed the role of judiciary. And he continued to serve the country by accepting to be in rajya Sabha.

If by constitution it is illegal, I'll stand with you as no one is above than constitution of India. But if breaking a convention doesn't break any existing rules, then why so much chaos over it?
 
If by constitution it is illegal, I'll stand with you as no one is above than constitution of India. But if breaking a convention doesn't break any existing rules, then why so much chaos over it?

Observe any mature democracy and you'll see that conventions play a huge role. Much of the chaos of the Trump administration over the last 4 years was about breaking conventions ( for example, firing the FBI director who was investigating him), not necessarily the violation of constitution. Avoiding the appearance of a quid pro quo is just as important as actually engaging in a quid pro quo.


Capture.JPG
 
Observe any mature democracy and you'll see that conventions play a huge role. Much of the chaos of the Trump administration over the last 4 years was about breaking conventions ( for example, firing the FBI director who was investigating him), not necessarily the violation of constitution. Avoiding the appearance of a quid pro quo is just as important as actually engaging in a quid pro quo.


View attachment 107350

Its about perspective. You believe one shouldn't break a convention. On the other hand, I don't believe that convention should be taken as the universal rule (for example, sati convention)

If breaking the convention doesn't break the constitution of India, then in my opinion, it should be allowed.

I respect the constitution and since nominating anyone from judiciary isn't barred, I have simply no issues. If you could cite anything that nomination breaks in terms of breaking of the rules of constitution, I'll be reading further on it.
 
Pretty pathetic statement. From the judiciary to the common man, all are delusional! They cannot see the injustice Pakistanis especially those from minority groups are facing.

India as a country is freer than Pakistan. In this country, you cannot criticise the clergy and the military. Enforced disappearances are the norm of the land.

It is hard to take seriously a judicial system that said that the overthrow of an elected civilian head of the government by the army chief was legal.
 
If breaking the convention doesn't break the constitution of India, then in my opinion, it should be allowed.

When Indira Gandhi imposed the Emergency in 1975, she did everything by the book. From your post above, it logically follows that she did nothing wrong or unethical or dictatorial because she wasn't violating the Constitution.
 
When Indira Gandhi imposed the Emergency in 1975, she did everything by the book. From your post above, it logically follows that she did nothing wrong or unethical or dictatorial because she wasn't violating the Constitution.

That's not clear. The Indian Constitution requires that an internal Emergency can only be imposed if there are valid reasons. The letter to the Indian President asking for Emergency to be imposed said "there is an imminent danger to the security of India being threatened by internal disturbances". President Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed could have refused saying that he did not see valid reasons but he did not.

So while one may say that things were done by the book, obviously the imposition of Emergency went implicitly against Constitution. The officeholders responsible for following the Constitution did not do their duty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emergency_(India)#Proclamation_of_the_Emergency
 
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It is hard to take seriously a judicial system that said that the overthrow of an elected civilian head of the government by the army chief was legal.

Parliament changed the constitution so they cant do that anymore.

The 18th amendment that was passed in 2010 had a clause stating

Any person who abrogates or subverts or suspends or holds in abeyance, or attempts or conspires to abrogate or subvert or suspend or hold in abeyance, the Constitution by use of force or show of force or by any other unconstitutional means shall be guilty of high treason.

Before the 18th amendment the clause was this of having committed an act of abrogation or subversion of a constitution in force in Pakistan

So the generals before would claim that they were only suspending the constitution or holding it in abeyance, and not abrogating it. And because of the doctrine of necessity the judges would validate the coup. However this is no longer legal.

Also if you are talking about the Musharraf coup in 99, the judges with integrity resigned and did not take oath on the PCO.
 
Parliament changed the constitution so they cant do that anymore.

The 18th amendment that was passed in 2010 had a clause stating

Any person who abrogates or subverts or suspends or holds in abeyance, or attempts or conspires to abrogate or subvert or suspend or hold in abeyance, the Constitution by use of force or show of force or by any other unconstitutional means shall be guilty of high treason.

Before the 18th amendment the clause was this of having committed an act of abrogation or subversion of a constitution in force in Pakistan

So the generals before would claim that they were only suspending the constitution or holding it in abeyance, and not abrogating it. And because of the doctrine of necessity the judges would validate the coup. However this is no longer legal.

Also if you are talking about the Musharraf coup in 99, the judges with integrity resigned and did not take oath on the PCO.

Both the overthrow of Bhutto and Sharif by the military based on the "doctrine of necessity".

In that decision, the Pakistan Supreme Court validated General Zia-ul-Haq's successful 1977 coup d'etat against Prime Minister Zulfihar Ali Bhutto's duly constituted government.
https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1128&context=cilj

Pakistan's judiciary's record is mixed. While it did validate the overthrown of Bhutto and Sharif, a lot of respect should be given to the Supreme Court Justices who refused to sign the Oath of Office Order, 2000 and resigned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oath_of_Office_(Judges)_Order,_2000

I also think that the next time the Army seizes power, their guns will ensure that another "doctrine of necessity" will be found to get around the Constitutional amendments you mention. That't the way military coups work.
 
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Both the overthrow of Bhutto and Sharif by the military based on the "doctrine of necessity".

Right, that was my point that they cant do it anymore because the 18th amendment got rid of the doctrine of necessity.

Their is no legal way for a general to do a coup, or for a judge to validate it. The penalty per the constitution is death for anyone who does after 2010.
 
Right, that was my point that they cant do it anymore because the 18th amendment got rid of the doctrine of necessity.

Their is no legal way for a general to do a coup, or for a judge to validate it. The penalty per the constitution is death for anyone who does after 2010.

The establishment can circumvent that by putting people who follow their lines. Nonetheless any body in India or Pakistan taking example of the other to justify the current state in their dominion is basically fooling around. We are both non performers in everything and miles behind where our citizens aspire to be.
 
The establishment can circumvent that by putting people who follow their lines. Nonetheless any body in India or Pakistan taking example of the other to justify the current state in their dominion is basically fooling around. We are both non performers in everything and miles behind where our citizens aspire to be.

Yes, but that's better than direct rule. The way to reduce the establishment's power is by having continuous democracy, and gradually their power will decline. What we have done is went back and forth between democracy and dictatorship, with the elected leaders not being strong enough to have full political control and the dictators not being strong enough to maintain their dictatorship and end up leaving in disgrace.


We have had now 12 straight years of democracy. If we can get it to like 30 to 35 years i think at that point Pakistan will be a normal democracy.
 
Yeah I can pull out thousands of articles suggesting otherwise :uak
Pakistan isn't exactly a mecca for freedom of speech and for all it's faults india is way better than Pak in that regard

But as usual I see people doing kahniyas :
))
Uh no it's not, nothing compares to the humanitarian crisis in Kashmir. You're really ignorant on Pakistan and Kashmir.
 
Uh no it's not, nothing compares to the humanitarian crisis in Kashmir. You're really ignorant on Pakistan and Kashmir.

:facepalm
So journalists are not being brutally tortured by Pak agencies?
Are there no militia/death squads assassinating anti-military targets?
Isn't military involved in safeguarding groups that carry out sectarian violence in our own country just because they're anti india?
If you believe military is a "saintly" organization then I should be calling you the same thing...

Kashmir is an active insurgent battle zone, These atrocities are taking place in MAINLAND Pakistan, it's not even a comparison I mean wth

This Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir in every random argument is tiring and makes absoulately no sense most of the time
 
:facepalm
So journalists are not being brutally tortured by Pak agencies?
Are there no militia/death squads assassinating anti-military targets?
Isn't military involved in safeguarding groups that carry out sectarian violence in our own country just because they're anti india?
If you believe military is a "saintly" organization then I should be calling you the same thing...

Kashmir is an active insurgent battle zone, These atrocities are taking place in MAINLAND Pakistan, it's not even a comparison I mean wth

This Kashmir, Kashmir, Kashmir in every random argument is tiring and makes absoulately no sense most of the time

None of that is anywhere as bad as compared to Kashmir and Kashmir is just an occupied part of mainland Pakistan, you're constantly defending india and subverting any criticism of them. Pick a side, buddy. Your grandparents chose Pakistan, can't play it both ways now.
 
None of that is anywhere as bad as compared to Kashmir and Kashmir is just an occupied part of mainland Pakistan, you're constantly defending india and subverting any criticism of them. Pick a side, buddy. Your grandparents chose Pakistan, can't play it both ways now.

Ghee seedhi ungli seh nahi tok terhi ungli seh nikalo - call the other guy a traitor :ds
(if you'll kindly respond to the specific points, I mentioned instead of bringing up a literal war zone and comparing its freedom of speech with our cities like Lahore, Karachi and other peaceful region...)
but I guess there is no point in an argument cause a fatwa is already issued of ghadari :jk
 
None of that is anywhere as bad as compared to Kashmir and Kashmir is just an occupied part of mainland Pakistan, you're constantly defending india and subverting any criticism of them. Pick a side, buddy. Your grandparents chose Pakistan, can't play it both ways now.
Kashmir is part of mainland Pakistan?

Under which treaty/agreement Kashmir was annexed to Pakistan?
 
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