UK born British citizens of Pakistani origin, who are unable or unwilling to regard the UK as 'home'

[Junaids]

In that case, I'll go back to the question you posed in your previous post:

My answer to that would be "Brexit".

Because let's be honest, to those living in areas not heavily affected by the influx of Polish and other East Europeans, but who still voted Brexit because of concerns about immigration, did so because, let's face it, to them immigration is all about those from outside Europe (and outside the 'white' Commonwealth).

And that in turn is heavily influenced by the perception (real or otherwise) that many of those with roots from places like Pakistan see themselves as not part of British society, as being separate from it, and wish to keep it that way whilst enjoying all the benefits and privileges of being British citizens.

In fact, your own post has hinted at something along similar lines:



So yes, it does matter how one is perceived by the rest of (British) society.

I don't accept this post at all.

Brexit in the North came as a result of lots of factors, none of them to do with fifty and sixty year old West Indian and Asian immigration.

And I was one of those northern Brexit voters, albeit more educated than most.

Firstly, there was Thatcher's de-industrialisation which took away our employment base.

Secondly, there was her war on mining communities.

(Try to remember at this point that I'm actually a Tory, not a militant leftie).

Huge swathes of England and Wales now have no jobs except poorly paid service ones and trades.

And now highly educated Eastern Europeans come in and do those jobs for tiny wages.

Brexit was about that.

 

[Yossarian]

I don't accept this post at all.

Brexit in the North came as a result of lots of factors, none of them to do with fifty and sixty year old West Indian and Asian immigration.

And I was one of those northern Brexit voters, albeit more educated than most.

Firstly, there was Thatcher's de-industrialisation which took away our employment base.

Secondly, there was her war on mining communities.

(Try to remember at this point that I'm actually a Tory, not a militant leftie).

Huge swathes of England and Wales now have no jobs except poorly paid service ones and trades.

And now highly educated Eastern Europeans come in and do those jobs for tiny wages.

Brexit was about that.

Yes lots of factors - with one of the major ones being immigration, and not just from Eastern Europe.

And that's why I wrote " but who still voted Brexit because of concerns about immigration" meaning that some (ie not everyone) did vote Brexit due to concerns about immigration.

And of those "living in areas not heavily affected by the influx of Polish and other East Europeans" but still having concerns about immigration, who do you think those immigration concerns were aimed at?

So yes, Brexit was about many factors - including about immigration - including about immigration from outside Eastern Europe.

Whereas you appear to be under the delusion that immigration concerns was not a factor in Brexit.

And the point for mentioning Brexit in my earlier post is/was that it does matter what the majority of British society perceives about some sections of British society, ie those with ethnic roots from places like Pakistan, if those perceptions are (rightly or wrongly) that these aforementioned sections don't see themselves, or wish to be seen, as being British.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

And to those who are not proud of being Pakistani, or those who are 'British first, then Pakistani, surely you should be supporting England in cricket then and not Pakistan.

You are absolutely right, and in my early years I was a big England fan, but when you spend your childhood days growing up in a rough white neighbourhood you soon get a sense that you aren't perceived quite the same way as other England fans, even amongst guys you would call your mates.

My support for the Pakistan cricket team has nothing to do with Pakistan culture or history, I don't really care about them, and I would identify with the English team members much better. It's support by default and a protest vote against the hidden racism which still drives the fastest selling newspapers in England.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

You are absolutely right, and in my early years I was a big England fan, but when you spend your childhood days growing up in a rough white neighbourhood you soon get a sense that you aren't perceived quite the same way as other England fans, even amongst guys you would call your mates.

My support for the Pakistan cricket team has nothing to do with Pakistan culture or history, I don't really care about them, and I would identify with the English team members much better. It's support by default and a protest vote against the hidden racism which still drives the fastest selling newspapers in England.

My support started aged 7 after the 1992 World Cup final. This became strengthened after attending a secondary school mainly full of Indians, during which Kargil happened.

I also read up a lot on Pakistan and now I've a bank of information in my brain about Pakistani culture, history and politics. I'm proud of it.

I'm proud of British culture. I integrate with the White British community and am comfortable with it.

I know what I am and why I am what I am. It's nice being comfortable with myself.

 

[enkidu_]

Jews and Gypsies lived on these lands for centuries and still aren't perceived as Europeans.

 

[Yossarian]

You are absolutely right, and in my early years I was a big England fan, but when you spend your childhood days growing up in a rough white neighbourhood you soon get a sense that you aren't perceived quite the same way as other England fans, even amongst guys you would call your mates.

My support for the Pakistan cricket team has nothing to do with Pakistan culture or history, I don't really care about them, and I would identify with the English team members much better. It's support by default and a protest vote against the hidden racism which still drives the fastest selling newspapers in England.

I think sports, and supporting particular sports teams or players, is something completely different.

Football fans are the prime example. Look how fans wordwide, in places like China, Korea, Malaysia ... support teams like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd etc without ever having even been to Europe, never mind to the city or stadium.

 

[Yossarian]

Jews and Gypsies lived on these lands for centuries and still aren't perceived as Europeans.

Wrong. Some of them don't perceive themselves as being European.

You think, for example, all the British MP's and Government ministers don't see themselves as being British? Don't confuse most of them supporting a certain state in the middle east as them not perceiving themselves as being British.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

I think sports, and supporting particular sports teams or players, is something completely different.

Football fans are the prime example. Look how fans wordwide, in places like China, Korea, Malaysia ... support teams like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd etc without ever having even been to Europe, never mind to the city or stadium.

I'm sorry but you can't compare support for a club to supporting Pakistani cricket. It's a part of Pakistani identity and is an extension of nationalism including the chants that go around the ground.

 

[Boom boom legend]

I think sports, and supporting particular sports teams or players, is something completely different.

Football fans are the prime example. Look how fans wordwide, in places like China, Korea, Malaysia ... support teams like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd etc without ever having even been to Europe, never mind to the city or stadium.

No, club teams are totally different. An example is franchise cricket, where you will usually root for the team who has your favourite players.

Internationals are unique in that probably over 90% of the time, people support the country closest to them and not the country with their favourite players. Just look at the football world cup. Fans are absolutely passionate about their own country, and they support them no matter how good or bad they are.

This for me, is actually a good barometer to see what identity people regard themselves as. You support the country you feel the most part of, and by people choosing Pakistan over England in cricket, it tells you all you need to know about where their allegiances lie deep down.

 

[Boom boom legend]

I think sports, and supporting particular sports teams or players, is something completely different.

Football fans are the prime example. Look how fans wordwide, in places like China, Korea, Malaysia ... support teams like Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd etc without ever having even been to Europe, never mind to the city or stadium.

And just to reiterate my point, although fans from China may support Real Madrid etc, if Spain ever played China in football, I am almost certain they would want China to win.

 

[enkidu_]

Wrong. Some of them don't perceive themselves as being European.

You think, for example, all the British MP's and Government ministers don't see themselves as being British? Don't confuse most of them supporting a certain state in the middle east as them not perceiving themselves as being British.

You don't have statistics, neither do I, but we have history : what happened to the "hyper assimilated" German Jews in the 30s ? And keep in mind I talk of them and not the more rustic Polish Jews and all, let alone the Gypsies.

The truth is that you can't control the sun nor your generic heritage - even after living centuries and being "assimilated", Euroepan Jews eventually ended up in extermination camps, so the Christian Europeans probably didn't see them as their "own", my guess.

 

[Yossarian]

You don't have statistics, neither do I, but we have history : what happened to the "hyper assimilated" German Jews in the 30s ? And keep in mind I talk of them and not the more rustic Polish Jews and all, let alone the Gypsies.

The truth is that you can't control the sun nor your generic heritage - even after living centuries and being "assimilated", Euroepan Jews eventually ended up in extermination camps, so the Christian Europeans probably didn't see them as their "own", my guess.

Or you could argue that by creating and maintaining a separate identity, that of 'us Jews being different to everyone else' and not the same as the rest of society, they ensured that the rest of society also saw them as being separate, being different, and not accept them as being 'one of us'. ie the same point I'm making in the OP.

As for your comment about genetic heritage, whilst the Jews have tried to maintain that they are a separate race, and thereby tried to keep their distance from the rest of society in order to maintain genetic purity and ensure the survival of Jews as a separate race, the same cannot be said of Pakistanis in the UK - since they don't have a common genetic history and don't belong to a particular race. They share a common culture and a religion but not a distinct genetic heritage. So that is a false comparison.

 

[Yossarian]

I'm sorry but you can't compare support for a club to supporting Pakistani cricket. It's a part of Pakistani identity and is an extension of nationalism including the chants that go around the ground.

No, club teams are totally different. An example is franchise cricket, where you will usually root for the team who has your favourite players.

Internationals are unique in that probably over 90% of the time, people support the country closest to them and not the country with their favourite players. Just look at the football world cup. Fans are absolutely passionate about their own country, and they support them no matter how good or bad they are.

This for me, is actually a good barometer to see what identity people regard themselves as. You support the country you feel the most part of, and by people choosing Pakistan over England in cricket, it tells you all you need to know about where their allegiances lie deep down.

Ah, the good old Norman Tebbit test! Didn't realise you subscribed to it.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Despite being born and bred in the UK, Pakistan all the time.

I assume most or at least your close family live in the UK with you? If so then surely your first priority is their defence, therefore you would fight with the UK against Pakistan.

 

[Yossarian]

I assume most or at least your close family live in the UK with you? If so then surely your first priority is their defence, therefore you would fight with the UK against Pakistan.

The UK is very unlikely to fight Pakistan - although going by that statement whilst he is willing to go and fight for Pakistan against others in order to defend distant cousins and uncles, or even no distant cousins and uncles but just an artificially created nation, he'll probably be demonstrating against those that are risking their lives to protect him, his neighbours, his family, his friends living in Britain from those trying to cause them harm.

 

[Wasim_Waqar]

The UK is very unlikely to fight Pakistan - although going by that statement whilst he is willing to go and fight for Pakistan against others in order to defend distant cousins and uncles, or even no distant cousins and uncles but just an artificially created nation, he'll probably be demonstrating against those that are risking their lives to protect him, his neighbours, his family, his friends living in Britain from those trying to cause them harm.

I fail the Tebbit test happily.

Ps most Indians I know would do exactly the same as this chap.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

It is perfectly normal.

It can take much longer for the connection to the "homeland" to be wiped out.

Take Italian-Americans as an example. Why do they still refer themselves as Italian-Americans when most were born in the U.S and don't even speak Italian?

Why do hispanics in the U.S. still consider themselves as Mexican and cheer for the Mexican soccer team even if they were born in the U.S?

British - Pakistanis do have some additional variables that will keep their connection to the homeland longer than other cultures. The main one being that many choose to (or are pressured into) marrying someone from Pakistan. Even those born in the UK sometimes marry their cousin or someone from Pakistan. Another factor is the desi enclaves in the UK such as in Bradford. Going out in shalwar kameez is probably a regular occurrence there.

America is a land for immigrants
Everyone is an immigrant
Which is why you can be Cuban American or Italian American etc
There are lots of places that have a non white majority

The uk apart from the vikings and the normans and the romans is pretty much Anglo Saxon
The Asian community on the whole wanted brexit and are proud to be a part of England
Their numbers and value to society has much more media attention that it proportionally deserves especially around election time and at this time of the year where politics goes on its annual break
It has also recently come more of an issue with geopolitics and how trump will be more anti china than Obama can ever be
Brexit has also means Europe is disillusioned with the uk and there's seem to a battle being coerced between the older generation and the newer

 

[Adil_94]

i think racism plays a part people feel alienated from.the mainstream. When they encounter racism and are told to go home. People see their brown skin and dont see them.as British. i went to school at a 90% white working class upper school.during the peak of the EDL and there were a vocal minority of lads who supported EDL and it created racial tensions with us and them. Made me question my Britishness. Also some people who are ultra religious dont take pride in nationality and say nationalism is haram the only identity u should be proud of or identify as is Muslim. But people like Moeen Ali are great role models in that aspect he is religious and patriotic.