UK no longer country where system is deliberately rigged against ethnic minorities race review says

[Saj]

The UK is no longer a country "where the system is deliberately rigged against ethnic minorities", a government-ordered review has argued.

The Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities - which was appointed by Prime Minister Boris Johnson following last summer's Black Lives Matter protests - has published its 258-page report on inequality in Britain.

It explored ethnic and race disparities within education, employment, the criminal justice system and health.

Mr Johnson described its report as an "important piece of work", adding: "It is now right that the government considers their recommendations in detail, and assesses the implications for future government policy.

"The entirety of government remains fully committed to building a fairer Britain and taking the action needed to address disparities wherever they exist."

But there has been criticism of the report, with Labour dismissing it as a "divisive polemic which cherry picks statistics".

"To downplay institutional racism in a pandemic where Black, Asian and ethnic minority people have died disproportionately and are now twice as likely to be unemployed is an insult," shadow women and equalities secretary Marsha de Cordova said.

"The government must urgently explain how they came to publish content which glorifies the slave trade and immediately disassociate themselves from these remarks."

Labour MP Diane Abbott told Sky News it was "more about politics than the policy" and "taking us back in the argument for racial justice, not taking us forward".

Shadow justice secretary David Lammy said black Britons were being "gaslighted".

"Like so many in Britain's Black community I'm tired," he added on Twitter.

"Tired of the endless debate about whether structural racism exists with little desire to actually address it."

In its report, the commission said the UK "should be regarded as a model for other white-majority countries" although it cannot be considered "a post racial society".

"Overt and outright racism persists in the UK", particularly online, the report found, adding that it remained a "real force" and should be taken "seriously".

But it also said: "Too often 'racism' is the catch-all explanation, and can be simply implicitly accepted rather than explicitly examined.

"The evidence shows that geography, family influence, socio-economic background, culture and religion have more significant impact on life chances than the existence of racism."

The report argues there is an "increasingly strident form of anti-racism thinking that seeks to explain all minority disadvantage through the prism of white discrimination", which diverts attention away from other factors behind disparities of outcome.

It criticised what it said was the "confusing" way the term "institutional racism" has been applied, arguing it should only be used when there is proven deep-seated, systemic racism present and not as a "catch-all" term for any microaggression.

The report makes a total of 24 recommendations to the government in order to give a "further burst of momentum" in the UK's progress towards becoming a "successful multicultural community", including:

• The phasing in of extended school days, starting with disadvantaged areas, as part of a "bold intervention" into education following the impact of the COVID pandemic on pupils
• Access to better quality careers advice in schools for children from disadvantaged backgrounds, funded by university outreach programmes
• The commissioning of further research into the drivers in "high performing pupils' communities" to see what can be replicated to support all children to succeed
• For organisations "to move away from funding unconscious bias training" and the government "to work with a panel of academics and practitioners to develop resources and evidence-based approaches of what does work to advance fairness in the workplace"
• Ditching the BAME (Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic) acronym

One of its major conclusions is that issues around race and racism are becoming less important and, in some cases, are not a significant factor in explaining disparities.

It found that children from many ethnic communities do at least as well or substantially better than white pupils in education.

This high achievement for children from certain ethnic communities is creating fairer and more diverse workplaces, the commission added.

Its report said some communities continue to be "haunted" by "historic cases" of racism, creating "deep mistrust" in the system which could prove a barrier to success.

But the commission claimed that there was a "reluctance to acknowledge that the UK had become open and fairer" from some groups.

It was also suggested that the well-meaning "idealism" of many young people who claim the country is still institutionally racist is not borne out by the evidence.

The report acknowledged that the Black Lives Matter demonstrations had focused attention on race, but said progress could not be achieved by "cleaving to a fatalistic account that insists nothing has changed".

It added: "We also have to ask whether a narrative that claims nothing has changed for the better, and that the dominant feature of our society is institutional racism and white privilege, will achieve anything beyond alienating the decent centre ground - a centre ground which is occupied by people of all races and ethnicities.

"We therefore cannot accept the accusatory tone of much of the current rhetoric on race, and the pessimism about what has been and what more can be achieved."

According to the commission, using phrases like "white privilege" and "white fragility" are "counterproductive and divisive" and "fails to identify the real causes for disparities".

Addressing calls for the curriculum in British schools to be "decolonised", the commission said "neither the banning of white authors or token expressions of black achievement will help to broaden young minds".

"We have argued against bringing down statues, instead, we want all children to reclaim their British heritage. We want to create a teaching resource that looks at the influence of the UK, particularly during the Empire period."

It added: "There is a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain."

Ms de Cordova highlighted this particular passage on her Twitter account, writing: "Putting a positive spin on slavery and empire. Published on a government website in 2021.

"Is this for real?"

Liberal Democrat MP Wera Hobhouse, the party's spokesperson for equalities, said there is "still so much to do to tackle racial injustice in our country", adding: "Conservative ministers must not use this report as an excuse to continue their shameful inaction."

https://news.sky.com/story/britain-...ng-to-government-ordered-race-review-12261675

 

[Saj]

I think racism has never been worse in Britain than it is at the moment.

It may not be as visible as it once was, but it is everywhere.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I havent faced direct racism since I was in school.

The UK doesnt hold anyone back if they're willing to work hard. There are ethnics in top areas of all industries inc politics and sports. If you are broke in the UK, dont blame the colour of your skin.

However there are racists in the UK just as they are in any country. If the UK can stamp out such racists who work in public sector, such as police, doctors, teachers etc it will improve it's society.

Imo it was worse in the 60's,70's,80's when racists would physically attack ethnics. Now its almost unheard of, apart from the odd drunk on a train or the odd nutter attacking elderly or women.

The governments war propaganda demonising Muslims after 911 did cause huge issues but even this is fading away.

A good government is all thats needed to make the changes neccesary. Stamping out groups such as EDL and BLM would also help.

 

[Bewal Express]

My own experience is that Racism is much lower than it has ever been. My children have also faced little if any and both went to 98% White schools. My son faced one incident of racism at school in his 5 years at high school. My experience may or may not be common. No doubt there are racists in the UK but they have gone online rather than in person.
The UK is a good country and the vast majority people are good people.

 

[the Great Khan]

My own experience is that Racism is much lower than it has ever been. My children have also faced little if any and both went to 98% White schools. My son faced one incident of racism at school in his 5 years at high school. My experience may or may not be common. No doubt there are racists in the UK but they have gone online rather than in person.
The UK is a good country and the vast majority people are good people.

then your lucky..Ive worked in for over twenty years and I have never worked in organisations that aren't racist..if your a brown man with a beard and a Muslim you eventually hit a glass ceiling. I have found white females to be more racist towards me than men. I regularly sit on interview panels and see how BAME people are discriminated against. I have been in numerous black workers groups where I have seen my colleagues in acute distress. By the way I cant tell you where I work as it would get me in trouble on here but I'm about to leave as i was bullied and harrassed. I initiated a grievance which I lost but have appealed. all 7 of our team members have resigned..There are clear institutional problems in the UK..

having said that it is alot better than when I first started and the younger gen are less tolerant of discrimination. But to say institutional racism doesnt exist belies other evidence from other areas..

 

[gazza619]

I think racism has never been worse in Britain than it is at the moment.

It may not be as visible as it once was, but it is everywhere.

Racism is now done in a very systematic way.

Racism will always exist.

 

[shaz619]

I havent faced direct racism since I was in school.

The UK doesnt hold anyone back if they're willing to work hard. There are ethnics in top areas of all industries inc politics and sports. If you are broke in the UK, dont blame the colour of your skin.

However there are racists in the UK just as they are in any country. If the UK can stamp out such racists who work in public sector, such as police, doctors, teachers etc it will improve it's society.

Imo it was worse in the 60's,70's,80's when racists would physically attack ethnics. Now its almost unheard of, apart from the odd drunk on a train or the odd nutter attacking elderly or women.

The governments war propaganda demonising Muslims after 911 did cause huge issues but even this is fading away.

A good government is all thats needed to make the changes neccesary. Stamping out groups such as EDL and BLM would also help.

I wouldn’t put a far right extremist organisation on a level playing field as an organisation which inherently is a social movement protesting against racially motivated violence and injustices, with that being said those issues are far greater in the USA. This government is pathetic to say the least and anyone trusting a report where the commission was hired by a known racist in the PM, they should be castrated, it down plays problems which do exist, that’s not to suggest conditions in the UK are awful but not like everything is hunky dory either

 

[Bewal Express]

then your lucky..Ive worked in for over twenty years and I have never worked in organisations that aren't racist..if your a brown man with a beard and a Muslim you eventually hit a glass ceiling. I have found white females to be more racist towards me than men. I regularly sit on interview panels and see how BAME people are discriminated against. I have been in numerous black workers groups where I have seen my colleagues in acute distress. By the way I cant tell you where I work as it would get me in trouble on here but I'm about to leave as i was bullied and harrassed. I initiated a grievance which I lost but have appealed. all 7 of our team members have resigned..There are clear institutional problems in the UK..

having said that it is alot better than when I first started and the younger gen are less tolerant of discrimination. But to say institutional racism doesnt exist belies other evidence from other areas..

As i said my experience may not be common.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The UK is no longer a country "where the system is deliberately rigged against ethnic minorities", a government-ordered review has argued.

The Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities - which was appointed by Prime Minister Boris Johnson following last summer's Black Lives Matter protests - has published its 258-page report on inequality in Britain.

It explored ethnic and race disparities within education, employment, the criminal justice system and health.

Mr Johnson described its report as an "important piece of work", adding: "It is now right that the government considers their recommendations in detail, and assesses the implications for future government policy.

"The entirety of government remains fully committed to building a fairer Britain and taking the action needed to address disparities wherever they exist."

But there has been criticism of the report, with Labour dismissing it as a "divisive polemic which cherry picks statistics".

"To downplay institutional racism in a pandemic where Black, Asian and ethnic minority people have died disproportionately and are now twice as likely to be unemployed is an insult," shadow women and equalities secretary Marsha de Cordova said.

"The government must urgently explain how they came to publish content which glorifies the slave trade and immediately disassociate themselves from these remarks."

Labour MP Diane Abbott told Sky News it was "more about politics than the policy" and "taking us back in the argument for racial justice, not taking us forward".

Shadow justice secretary David Lammy said black Britons were being "gaslighted".

"Like so many in Britain's Black community I'm tired," he added on Twitter.

"Tired of the endless debate about whether structural racism exists with little desire to actually address it."

In its report, the commission said the UK "should be regarded as a model for other white-majority countries" although it cannot be considered "a post racial society".

"Overt and outright racism persists in the UK", particularly online, the report found, adding that it remained a "real force" and should be taken "seriously".

But it also said: "Too often 'racism' is the catch-all explanation, and can be simply implicitly accepted rather than explicitly examined.

"The evidence shows that geography, family influence, socio-economic background, culture and religion have more significant impact on life chances than the existence of racism."

The report argues there is an "increasingly strident form of anti-racism thinking that seeks to explain all minority disadvantage through the prism of white discrimination", which diverts attention away from other factors behind disparities of outcome.

It criticised what it said was the "confusing" way the term "institutional racism" has been applied, arguing it should only be used when there is proven deep-seated, systemic racism present and not as a "catch-all" term for any microaggression.

The report makes a total of 24 recommendations to the government in order to give a "further burst of momentum" in the UK's progress towards becoming a "successful multicultural community", including:

• The phasing in of extended school days, starting with disadvantaged areas, as part of a "bold intervention" into education following the impact of the COVID pandemic on pupils
• Access to better quality careers advice in schools for children from disadvantaged backgrounds, funded by university outreach programmes
• The commissioning of further research into the drivers in "high performing pupils' communities" to see what can be replicated to support all children to succeed
• For organisations "to move away from funding unconscious bias training" and the government "to work with a panel of academics and practitioners to develop resources and evidence-based approaches of what does work to advance fairness in the workplace"
• Ditching the BAME (Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic) acronym

One of its major conclusions is that issues around race and racism are becoming less important and, in some cases, are not a significant factor in explaining disparities.

It found that children from many ethnic communities do at least as well or substantially better than white pupils in education.

This high achievement for children from certain ethnic communities is creating fairer and more diverse workplaces, the commission added.

Its report said some communities continue to be "haunted" by "historic cases" of racism, creating "deep mistrust" in the system which could prove a barrier to success.

But the commission claimed that there was a "reluctance to acknowledge that the UK had become open and fairer" from some groups.

It was also suggested that the well-meaning "idealism" of many young people who claim the country is still institutionally racist is not borne out by the evidence.

The report acknowledged that the Black Lives Matter demonstrations had focused attention on race, but said progress could not be achieved by "cleaving to a fatalistic account that insists nothing has changed".

It added: "We also have to ask whether a narrative that claims nothing has changed for the better, and that the dominant feature of our society is institutional racism and white privilege, will achieve anything beyond alienating the decent centre ground - a centre ground which is occupied by people of all races and ethnicities.

"We therefore cannot accept the accusatory tone of much of the current rhetoric on race, and the pessimism about what has been and what more can be achieved."

According to the commission, using phrases like "white privilege" and "white fragility" are "counterproductive and divisive" and "fails to identify the real causes for disparities".

Addressing calls for the curriculum in British schools to be "decolonised", the commission said "neither the banning of white authors or token expressions of black achievement will help to broaden young minds".

"We have argued against bringing down statues, instead, we want all children to reclaim their British heritage. We want to create a teaching resource that looks at the influence of the UK, particularly during the Empire period."

It added: "There is a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain."

Ms de Cordova highlighted this particular passage on her Twitter account, writing: "Putting a positive spin on slavery and empire. Published on a government website in 2021.

"Is this for real?"

Liberal Democrat MP Wera Hobhouse, the party's spokesperson for equalities, said there is "still so much to do to tackle racial injustice in our country", adding: "Conservative ministers must not use this report as an excuse to continue their shameful inaction."

https://news.sky.com/story/britain-...ng-to-government-ordered-race-review-12261675

There is racism and there are racists in the UK, and its mainly reflected in the racist tabloid media.

I disagree with this concept of "structural" racism though and I think it is often used as a grievance and perhaps a comforting factor by people who are unable to progress in their field.....but this is perhaps just my own experience and not the lived experiences of others.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

then your lucky..Ive worked in for over twenty years and I have never worked in organisations that aren't racist..if your a brown man with a beard and a Muslim you eventually hit a glass ceiling. I have found white females to be more racist towards me than men. I regularly sit on interview panels and see how BAME people are discriminated against. I have been in numerous black workers groups where I have seen my colleagues in acute distress. By the way I cant tell you where I work as it would get me in trouble on here but I'm about to leave as i was bullied and harrassed. I initiated a grievance which I lost but have appealed. all 7 of our team members have resigned..There are clear institutional problems in the UK..

having said that it is alot better than when I first started and the younger gen are less tolerant of discrimination. But to say institutional racism doesnt exist belies other evidence from other areas..

I'm sorry to hear that, and I made my post without reading yours. I hope your appeal is successful and you are able to move on to another fulfilling role.

I genuinley didn't think that large organisations had cultures where this type of behaviour is prevalent. Perhaps I have been lucky or perhaps just oblivious.

 

[irfan]

Bit of a whitewash, pardon the pun, as expected as the outcome was already pre-determined and not an objective analysis; the main architects of the report Mirza & Sewell do no believe institutional racism exists & the coconut contributors duly followed this line.

Interesting that Downing St's most senior black advisor resigned as the report was published, accusing the govt of 'pursuing a politics steeped in division'.

https://www.politico.eu/newsletter/...-quits-cred-ibility-issues-passport-problems/

 

[shaz619]

For those who are very selective social justice warriors, this report doesn’t just affect the black community but all ethnic minorities and that includes issues surrounding Islamophobia. I think what we need though is a good ol arabian burial in the middle east to evoke the emotion of some folk around these parts though

 

[OMB]

Met PC found guilty of neo-Nazi group membership


A Met Police officer has been convicted of being a member of a banned neo-Nazi terrorist organisation.

Benjamin Hannam, of Enfield, north London, was found guilty of membership of the banned right-wing extremist group National Action (NA).

He was also convicted of lying on his Met Police application and having terror documents detailing knife combat and making explosive devices.

Hannam is the first British officer to be convicted of a terrorism offence.

He was released on conditional bail ahead of sentencing on 23 April.

At the Old Bailey, Judge Anthony Leonard QC lifted a ban on reporting the case after the 22-year-old admitted possessing an indecent image of a child, which was to have been the subject of a separate trial.

The PC had been working as a probationary officer for the Met for nearly two years before he was found on a leaked database of users of extreme right-wing forum Iron March.

He had signed up to the forum when he joined the London branch of neo-Nazi group NA in March 2016.

Jurors convicted him of remaining in NA for several months after it was banned in December 2016, as well as two counts of fraud for lying about his far-right past in a Met application form.

Prosecutor Dan Pawson-Pounds said the fraud was "intimately connected" to Hannam's membership of the outlawed group.

The 22-year-old had denied all the offences, telling the court he had never been a member of NA despite regularly attending group meetings.

He claimed that he was interested by the "look and aesthetic of fascism", but that he was not a racist and had actually challenged group members when they expressed such views.

The officer said he had been "desperate to impress" an older NA organiser and his association with the group ended before he began working for the Met.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-56604470

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

As i said my experience may not be common.

think it's more a matter of expectancy levels. There are some who think we are lucky to be here, so just not to be openly discriminated against is enough - and really that's a fair point, UK is still much better than other countries in this regard, at least there are measures put in place to try to address grievances.

Personally I have lived here all my life, I don't want any more or less than Johnny or Joanie so it annoys me when I am expected to feel grateful. I have earned it probably far more than either Johnny or Joanie in many respects.

 

[Bewal Express]

think it's more a matter of expectancy levels. There are some who think we are lucky to be here, so just not to be openly discriminated against is enough - and really that's a fair point, UK is still much better than other countries in this regard, at least there are measures put in place to try to address grievances.

Personally I have lived here all my life, I don't want any more or less than Johnny or Joanie so it annoys me when I am expected to feel grateful. I have earned it probably far more than either Johnny or Joanie in many respects.

The only thing you can judge is the open discrimination, outside that it's a matter of opinion and is very difficult to prove or disprove.

 

[Technics 1210]

80s were way worse but the only difference now is that racism towards Asians has declined, whereas against Blacks, it has increased.

Is this down to media sensationalism or the bitter truth? Somewhere in between I feel.

Regardless, I have been clubbing since 89, and every event I went to was trouble free, with the exception of Jungle/Hip Hop/Rap. (Anecdotel evidence). Attitude problem? I think so.

Hip Hop/Rap have played an integral role in shaping black culture. Problem is the same genre disses and disrespects its own black people yet the Hip Hop world is a multi Billion dollar industry. We are told not to use the N word, but stars like Snoop use the N word and it sells in the Millions.

We should be asking why is it blacks are more prone to commit a crime vis-a-vis per capita?

Jews, Muslims, and Blacks need to stop playing the victim card. It will not work because the person you are accusing is in seek of sympathy themselves.

Blacks have more role models than any other race. Sporting icons, music icons, judiciary icons, journalist icons, political icons, media icons, the list is endless.

I don't buy UK is more racist now than it might have been; perhaps some have intergrated better, perhaps media fans the fire, perhaps it's just victimhood.

Whatever it is, it's becoming boring!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The only thing you can judge is the open discrimination, outside that it's a matter of opinion and is very difficult to prove or disprove.

Agreed, and as I said this is just my personal opinion. Beyond the open discrimination, there is also the "nudge and wink" as the British say, and I am not going to push too hard on that other than to give a wink to acknowledge it.

 

[Zaz]

Racism is now done in a very systematic way.

Racism will always exist.

There isnt the overy racism in your face like the 70s and 80s where people would physically attack you or call you names

Its much more behind your back now and subtle now

I still face racism daily in the uk whether its being turned down for interviews or people being impolite or unfriendly to you

In general i get treated differently to how a white guy would be treated

The review is so so incorrect

 

[Adil_94]

Racism has definitely gotten better since the 70s n 80s. Where people would be attacked for being brown or black. Or u would be spat at for having an interracial child as a white person. We have made great strides in that department.

The racism now is more insidious n the harder one to fight. The things like Glass ceilings in work places. The micro aggressions. I do agree that Class is a big factor but at top level of many organisations its still Whites mostly. Their diversity is bringing in White Women alongside the White men.

This racism is harder to fight and seems like the govt dont wanna fight it cos its too much effort.

They also are the govt that exacerbate class divides n cut dunding and welfare for working class people of all backgrounds.

 

[Robert]

Agreed, and as I said this is just my personal opinion. Beyond the open discrimination, there is also the "nudge and wink" as the British say, and I am not going to push too hard on that other than to give a wink to acknowledge it.

Numerous microaggressions which demean and provoke to anger without reaching the threshold of illegality.

Then if the black person reacts, white society talks about chips on shoulders.

 

[Saj]

Racism is now done in a very systematic way.

Racism will always exist.

Yes I feel that people aren't openly racist. Gone are the days of the skin-heads. Nowadays it's done in a sly and sneaky way, whether that be at work or elsewhere.

 

[Tubs]

I think we (in this case, I mean minorities) should be hesitant to say 'I don't face racism that much anymore, therefore the UK isn't a racist country', because the whole point of this review was to test for systemic racism.

That being said, I do believe that there is little, to no, systemic racism anymore in this country. In fact, there are perhaps some overcorrections, as there are many jobs, for example, which say 'we encourage BAME people to apply', or jobs at unis which ask for BAME people only, which is pretty ridiculous, I must say. [As an aside, I despise the 'BAME, POC, BIPOC, etc' labels]

Some people have touched upon cultural issues in minority communities, and I agree. Though I do think culture plays a part, there is a class issue too, and minorities are overrepresented in the working class. To use the indigenous, white population as an example, in recent years working class white men are the least educated (I think the metric was uni admissions). This isn't exactly a hot take, but inequality is a multivariate issue for sure.

 

[James]

The report is a sham, the investigating members were handpicked minority ethnic people with right-wing views, and the whole piece was deliberately engineered in an attempt to whitewash the very real issue of structural racism in the UK. Thankfully, from what I have seen so far, very few people are falling for it.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yes I feel that people aren't openly racist. Gone are the days of the skin-heads. Nowadays it's done in a sly and sneaky way, whether that be at work or elsewhere.

One of the reasons skin-heads dont attack openely is they simply cant. Gone are the days our fathers were only here to work hard, keep their heads down and allow racists to spew hate. We saw the EDL marching, protected by police. Skin heads simply dont have the physical capabilities to attack Asians or blacks now, they would get a serious hiding now. They resort to attacking elderly and women now, racists are cowards too.

 

[Robert]

The report is a sham, the investigating members were handpicked minority ethnic people with right-wing views, and the whole piece was deliberately engineered in an attempt to whitewash the very real issue of structural racism in the UK. Thankfully, from what I have seen so far, very few people are falling for it.

It’s an attempt to gaslight millions of BAME Britons, invalidate their decades of lived experience. It will give succour to the racist hard right. This report is contemptible and cannot be allowed to stand.

 

[CricketCartoons]

This isn't exactly a hot take, but inequality is a multivariate issue for sure.

Wrong. Inequality is a univariate issue, with race being the only variable (according to experts).

 

[Tubs]

Wrong. Inequality is a univariate issue, with race being the only variable (according to experts).

True, let's hope our white masters are benevolent towards us! No, wait, that's not what the experts want us to think either...

 

[Tubs]

The report is a sham, the investigating members were handpicked minority ethnic people with right-wing views, and the whole piece was deliberately engineered in an attempt to whitewash the very real issue of structural racism in the UK. Thankfully, from what I have seen so far, very few people are falling for it.

I suppose it is very hard to evaluate the degree of systemic racism in a country. Do you know of any stats that suggest it is a big issue? It's alright if you don't, this isn't a callout, I just think it is a pretty difficult problem to tackle without quickly descending into anecdotes.

 

[ElRaja]

what is the ultimate goal, no racism? that will never happen, not in the uk or any country in the world. people are tribal, and if they dont use race, they will use some other classification to try to increase association with one group at the expense of another.

are there racists in britain, yes. is british society as a whole racist, no, not to me. its not a realistic expectation to have no racism, and therefore whatever threshold u set will dictate whether the uk classifies as racist. move the threshold, and get whatever answer u want. so there is no way a government report can say whether this country is racist or not.

if you can earn a living, without fear or physical insecurity, and your rights, in particular related to property, employment and inheritance are demonstrably equitable across the racial gamut, to me your not a racist country, and in my experience therefore the uk is not racist.

 

[shaykh]

The same anti-intellectual arguments that are being made in the US are starting to plague us here...

White travellers btw are the worst performing ‘group’ here for example ...and if one wants to break statistics down by groups then you find out that ‘black’ really is loaded...Africans VS Caribbean’s for example...or if you want to break it down further you’ll find certain Nigerian tribes do better than others...

As someone who studied research methods it’s laughable for someone to construct and argument by saying ‘more black men in prison = racism’ ...could it not just mean more black men commit crime?...

And just as odd is the attempt to shut down discussion on the impact of parents and upbringing as if culture has absolutely no relevance...if anything it has become racist to suggest anything other than institutionalised racism is the cause for disparity ...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The same anti-intellectual arguments that are being made in the US are starting to plague us here...

White travellers btw are the worst performing ‘group’ here for example ...and if one wants to break statistics down by groups then you find out that ‘black’ really is loaded...Africans VS Caribbean’s for example...or if you want to break it down further you’ll find certain Nigerian tribes do better than others...

As someone who studied research methods it’s laughable for someone to construct and argument by saying ‘more black men in prison = racism’ ...could it not just mean more black men commit crime?...

And just as odd is the attempt to shut down discussion on the impact of parents and upbringing as if culture has absolutely no relevance...if anything it has become racist to suggest anything other than institutionalised racism is the cause for disparity ...

What is it about black culture and parenting that would explain the reason for more black men committing crime? Do you think it may be linked to the black race?

 

[SpiritOf1903]

What is it about black culture and parenting that would explain the reason for more black men committing crime? Do you think it may be linked to the black race?

Or social inequality?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Or social inequality?

Then we have to ask why there is social inequality. My question was to shaykh who was contending that the reason there were more black men in jail was because they committed more crimes, and he disputed that racism was the reason, pointing instead to culture and upbringing.

 

[Technics 1210]

Then we have to ask why there is social inequality. My question was to shaykh who was contending that the reason there were more black men in jail was because they committed more crimes, and he disputed that racism was the reason, pointing instead to culture and upbringing.

I agree with him. The reason why more blacks are in jail per capita is down to their upbringing, not the colour of their skin.

It's no surprise blacks raised by both parents at home do better in society than blacks raised by a single parent.

 

[Saj]

One of the reasons skin-heads dont attack openely is they simply cant. Gone are the days our fathers were only here to work hard, keep their heads down and allow racists to spew hate. We saw the EDL marching, protected by police. Skin heads simply dont have the physical capabilities to attack Asians or blacks now, they would get a serious hiding now. They resort to attacking elderly and women now, racists are cowards too.

That's what I am saying. Racism is done differently nowadays, it is less open, it's hidden but it's there. In fact I would say since Brexit things have got even worse.

 

[Zaz]

I agree with him. The reason why more blacks are in jail per capita is down to their upbringing, not the colour of their skin.

It's no surprise blacks raised by both parents at home do better in society than blacks raised by a single parent.

Its a fact that because of racial inequality such as in education, job opportunities etc upbringing is affected and thus there is more crime and poverty in ethnic minorites

Its a vicious circle started by systematic inequality

 

[KingKhanWC]

That's what I am saying. Racism is done differently nowadays, it is less open, it's hidden but it's there. In fact I would say since Brexit things have got even worse.

Its a shame as things were really improving but imo the government propaganda about Brexit has caused divide.

I think Eastern Europeans prob face more direct and indirect racism due to their language and Brexit.

But we should be very grateful were are not in France.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I agree with him. The reason why more blacks are in jail per capita is down to their upbringing, not the colour of their skin.

It's no surprise blacks raised by both parents at home do better in society than blacks raised by a single parent.

What is the driving force behind this upbringing. Culture and upbringing have been mentioned, is this something which they have brought over from Africa or the West Indies? Do they promote single parent families over there?

 

[Technics 1210]

Its a fact that because of racial inequality such as in education, job opportunities etc upbringing is affected and thus there is more crime and poverty in ethnic minorites

Its a vicious circle started by systematic inequality

Racial inequality in education? Every child in this country has an equal racial opportunity to join a state school/primary/secondary in the UK. Schools that require entry examinations are assessed based on scores, not skin colour (exam papers do not include names on the sheet, just an ID number). This ensures the marking is as unbias as possible.

What effect the success of entry into state school more than the colour of the skin is their postcode! There's no widespread racial inequality just economic disparity which affects all people.

Still blacks are doing remarkably well in music. Is this also because they are black or because they are creative? Blacks are doing exceptionally well in sports. Because their skin is black or they have better atheisim and drive?

As for crime in poor areas. Yup this is true, but not unique to blacks. There are whites and white areas in the UK that are deprived of basic social elements. Poverty beyond recognition. Poor areas are not just specific to blacks. West London has pockets of areas where desis are living in abject conditions.

 

[Nadeemp]

Also don’t forget the justice system which is very biased.

 

[Technics 1210]

What is the driving force behind this upbringing. Culture and upbringing have been mentioned, is this something which they have brought over from Africa or the West Indies? Do they promote single parent families over there?

Not a driving force, but an influence, that is victimhood.

So let me ask you, why is that blacks are successful in music and sports? Is it because of their skin colour or their talent and determination?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Not a driving force, but an influence, that is victimhood.

So let me ask you, why is that blacks are successful in music and sports? Is it because of their skin colour or their talent and determination?

I asked whether they brought their culture and upbringing from Africa or the West Indies, and you answered victimhood. What...they brought that from over there?

As to why they are successful in music and sports, it's because there is no barrier to that success. A top football team wants the best players so they can be the best team. There was a time when there was no black player on Merseyside, it was considered taboo for Liverpool and Everton. But once teams with black players started to overtake them they had to join the rest and embrace it.

But black players still complain that they don't get offered coaching or managerial jobs, and that's where the barriers are still present. The decision lies in boardrooms dominated by old white men. The same ones who thought black players didn't have the fortitude to make it at the top level a generation or two ago.

 

[Technics 1210]

I asked whether they brought their culture and upbringing from Africa or the West Indies, and you answered victimhood. What...they brought that from over there?

As to why they are successful in music and sports, it's because there is no barrier to that success. A top football team wants the best players so they can be the best team. There was a time when there was no black player on Merseyside, it was considered taboo for Liverpool and Everton. But once teams with black players started to overtake them they had to join the rest and embrace it.

But black players still complain that they don't get offered coaching or managerial jobs, and that's where the barriers are still present. The decision lies in boardrooms dominated by old white men. The same ones who thought black players didn't have the fortitude to make it at the top level a generation or two ago.

You asked the wrong question. Blacks bringing their culture from Africa or WI is not relevent because the point is the success/failures of blacks is not down to culture, but the rejection/acceptance of victimhood.

Thanks for the answer to my question though. Essentially you are saying that when blacks are in prison it's because the system is racist, but when blacks succeed it's because there are no barriers and plenty of opportunities now.

Even if I accept your answer, then at the basic level, blacks in the UK have never had it so good when comparing 70s/80s Merseyside.

So lets stop pretending structural/institutional racisim in the UK is widespread. It's not when blacks are dominating certain fields in the UK.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You asked the wrong question. Blacks bringing their culture from Africa or WI is not relevent because the point is the success/failures of blacks is not down to culture, but the rejection/acceptance of victimhood.

Thanks for the answer to my question though. Essentially you are saying that when blacks are in prison it's because the system is racist, but when blacks succeed it's because there are no barriers and plenty of opportunities now.

Even if I accept your answer, then at the basic level, blacks in the UK have never had it so good when comparing 70s/80s Merseyside.

So lets stop pretending structural/institutional racisim in the UK is widespread. It's not when blacks are dominating certain fields in the UK.

They are dominating fields where there really is no way to stop them dominating without barring them from competing. It's a bizarre argument. I'm not saying blacks are in prison because the system is racist either, I have never denied they commit the crimes. All I am doing is asking what is your view why they are more likely to commit crimes. I have heard reasons like culture and upbringing, and I asked where is this culture coming from? Does it belong to black people?

Same goes to your assertion that it is a culture of victimhood. Is that a black trait as well?

 

[shaykh]

What is it about black culture and parenting that would explain the reason for more black men committing crime? Do you think it may be linked to the black race?

Black is a loaded term first of all...Nigerians for example outperform white groups in education ...even if you look deeper you find certain tribes of Nigerian do better ...

It’s as reductive as saying ‘Asian’ people...as if Gujurati’s for example don’t dominate education ...

Why do gypsies underperform compared to other groups?...

Why do males commit more crime than women etc?...

In short culture has an impact in many cases but the brush is spread far too broadly ...

So in that case it’s actually just worth looking at what factors contribute to criminality ...and there are areas that transcend race and culture ...breakdown of the family ...no father figures etc...it’s why in the US they looked at mentoring schemes...

Lack of extended family is also suggested as a factor...whether you are black or white...

There are universal trends...and then you can add culture ...it’s not racist for example to suggest that gypsy culture has an impact on determining negative trends...and that is the case in whatever country you’re in ...

They didn’t fill jails in Spain when I lived there cos Spain was racist towards them...there are criminal aspects to their culture ...

This btw doesn’t assume that everyone is reflective of that culture ...

So in short ...no nothing is intrinsic...social factors, cultural factors all have a big part to play in determining criminality imo...

 

[Technics 1210]

They are dominating fields where there really is no way to stop them dominating without barring them from competing. It's a bizarre argument. I'm not saying blacks are in prison because the system is racist either, I have never denied they commit the crimes. All I am doing is asking what is your view why they are more likely to commit crimes. I have heard reasons like culture and upbringing, and I asked where is this culture coming from? Does it belong to black people?

Same goes to your assertion that it is a culture of victimhood. Is that a black trait as well?

Victimhood is a trait in humans.

There are other demographics that also play the 'I'm the victim' card and it is getting boring aswell as annoying.

Criminal profiles have traits, where broken home/family is a common theme - regardless of colour of skin.

 

[Bigboii]

Black is a loaded term first of all...Nigerians for example outperform white groups in education ...even if you look deeper you find certain tribes of Nigerian do better ...

It’s as reductive as saying ‘Asian’ people...as if Gujurati’s for example don’t dominate education ...

Why do gypsies underperform compared to other groups?...

Why do males commit more crime than women etc?...

In short culture has an impact in many cases but the brush is spread far too broadly ...

So in that case it’s actually just worth looking at what factors contribute to criminality ...and there are areas that transcend race and culture ...breakdown of the family ...no father figures etc...it’s why in the US they looked at mentoring schemes...

Lack of extended family is also suggested as a factor...whether you are black or white...

There are universal trends...and then you can add culture ...it’s not racist for example to suggest that gypsy culture has an impact on determining negative trends...and that is the case in whatever country you’re in ...

They didn’t fill jails in Spain when I lived there cos Spain was racist towards them...there are criminal aspects to their culture ...

This btw doesn’t assume that everyone is reflective of that culture ...

So in short ...no nothing is intrinsic...social factors, cultural factors all have a big part to play in determining criminality imo...

Muslim culture leads to terrorism
is it racist or Xenophobic or not?

 

[shaykh]

Muslim culture leads to terrorism
is it racist or Xenophobic or not?

Loaded term again...what is Muslim culture?...it’s as redundant as saying ‘Asian culture’...

Also any sociology on terrorism usually focuses on triggers...to be radicalised in the first place requires you to not be a radical to begin with...you’re harder to mould if you already carry dogmatic opinions...as someone who was well acquainted with HT back in the day ...target those without knowledge, and who have some form of grievance and give them knowledge and the direction you want their anger to be directed in...and give them belonging...the same psychology that works for gang recruitment etc...so again universal things to look for ...Jihadists online for example along with the alt-right have similar types of targets and similar methodologies...

As for those two terms...stating Muslim culture leads to terrorism would neither be racism nor xenophobia ...Islam has no racial element nor national element ...bigoted is probably the term you’re looking for ...

 

[Suleiman]

Good to hear. You guys are finally catching up to the US. Heartening to see.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Victimhood is a trait in humans.

There are other demographics that also play the 'I'm the victim' card and it is getting boring aswell as annoying.

Criminal profiles have traits, where broken home/family is a common theme - regardless of colour of skin.

This topic only keeps cropping up because we are regarding the colour of the skin though. Otherwise there would be no need for the thread.

 

[Robert]

Victimhood is a trait in humans.

There are other demographics that also play the 'I'm the victim' card and it is getting boring aswell as annoying.

Criminal profiles have traits, where broken home/family is a common theme - regardless of colour of skin.

Pakistani Muslims are as strongly over-represented in London jails as blacks. Is this due to “victimhood”? Do they commit more crimes? Or is there inherent Islamophobia in the justice system?

 

[Technics 1210]

This topic only keeps cropping up because we are regarding the colour of the skin though. Otherwise there would be no need for the thread.

It's the opposite. Broken family/home is ignored because it's easier to play the race card.

 

[Technics 1210]

Pakistani Muslims are as strongly over-represented in London jails as blacks. Is this due to “victimhood”? Do they commit more crimes? Or is there inherent Islamophobia in the justice system?

I don't know. The point i'm making is that blacks are not in prison cos the system is racist. Is the system racists towards Pakistan Muslims in jail too?

I also bet most of those Pakistani Muslims also came from broken family/home.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I don't know. The point i'm making is that blacks are not in prison cos the system is racist. Is the system racists towards Pakistan Muslims in jail too?

I also bet most of those Pakistani Muslims also came from broken family/home.

Why are we even talking about blacks or Muslims then? We could just be talking about broken families/homes in a generic sense. Where does the ethnic dimension come in?

 

[Giannis]

yeah a report ordered by Boris Johnson

 

[Technics 1210]

Why are we even talking about blacks or Muslims then? We could just be talking about broken families/homes in a generic sense. Where does the ethnic dimension come in?

The sheeple who turn every issue into a skin colour issue.

Yes lets talk about the real causes to why people resort to crime instead of parroting the media propaganda - skin colour.

 

[shaykh]

Why are we even talking about blacks or Muslims then? We could just be talking about broken families/homes in a generic sense. Where does the ethnic dimension come in?

Probably because black children are significantly more likely to be brought up by one parent...

Black kids are more likely to have an absentee father...also less likely to have extended family to say help the mother ...

Black kids are more likely to have an incarcerated parent...

If you break it down further I think I remember a census which showed 48% of Caribbean kids are brought up in single parent families...

So if X group is overrepresented in any sort of measure...then the next question is to ask why...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Probably because black children are significantly more likely to be brought up by one parent...

Black kids are more likely to have an absentee father...also less likely to have extended family to say help the mother ...

Black kids are more likely to have an incarcerated parent...

If you break it down further I think I remember a census which showed 48% of Caribbean kids are brought up in single parent families...

So if X group is overrepresented in any sort of measure...then the next question is to ask why...

Well I was asking this question, and we don't seem to have had many answers so far other than they are playing the victim. You talk about Caribbeans, what is their outlook in the Caribbean? Are they generally considered to have a lazy, feckless attitude to life?

 

[Robert]

I don't know. The point i'm making is that blacks are not in prison cos the system is racist. Is the system racists towards Pakistan Muslims in jail too?

I also bet most of those Pakistani Muslims also came from broken family/home.

Perhaps so.

I think the justice system discriminates against both ethnic groups.

If you are I were to do a crime together, the brutal truth is that you are more likely to be jailed than me, and for longer. Unless you can afford a better lawyer than me.

 

[Robert]

The sheeple who turn every issue into a skin colour issue.

Yes lets talk about the real causes to why people resort to crime instead of parroting the media propaganda - skin colour.

Family breakdown, poor education, poverty. Obviously blacks (and for that matter some Pakistanis in northern towns) are more likely to fall into these disadvantaged groups. The question is how were they disadvantaged, and answer is (in part) structural racism.

You cited a few examples of successful black musicians, athletes and politicians. But when you are born with two strikes on you due to neighbourhood and structural racism, your change of getting on base are reduced. You might get a base hit anyway. Might even hit a home run like Oprah. But your chances of doing so are reduced.

 

[RajBan]

How are the government schools(primary/secondary education) in UK? Are they subsidised and allow large section of the under privileged population to join the mainstream education? Does that help the individuals and families to build a future for themselves ?

 

[the Great Khan]

I suppose it is very hard to evaluate the degree of systemic racism in a country. Do you know of any stats that suggest it is a big issue? It's alright if you don't, this isn't a callout, I just think it is a pretty difficult problem to tackle without quickly descending into anecdotes.

yes, go to this link and this is just one area that shows systemic racism exists:

https://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/news-events/news/new-csi-report-on-ethnic-minority-job-discrimination/

the headline is below:

"A report from the Centre for Social Investigation at Nuffield College reveals that levels of discrimination have remained unchanged since the 1960s"

this is from a report by Nuffield college which is part of the University of Oxford. So not some joey outfit. You dont need anything more than this to be honest to tell you the acute problems within the UK.

 

[the Great Khan]

How are the government schools(primary/secondary education) in UK? Are they subsidised and allow large section of the under privileged population to join the mainstream education? Does that help the individuals and families to build a future for themselves ?

it depends where you live. if you live in affluent white middle class area the govt schools are very good. These areas tend to have tory mp's that receive more funding than non tory areas. And I can attest to this with evidence as my wife is a governor at a local school.

If you live in a socially deprived either white majority area or black/asian majority area then the schools will suffer from numerous problems. The exceptions are mostly in London where communities and schools have worked with the London authorities to get black and asian kids out of the ghettos and into oxford, cambridge and other top universities. But the problem continues.

Even if you get the same or better grades than a white person, e.g. lets say white man/woman gets 3 A*s and you named Abdul get 3 A*s white man/woman are still 6 times more likely to get a job you have applied for. So you on average will have to send out 6 times more CV's to get the same amount of interviews.

Muslims and Blacks in general fair worse than chinese and Indians. Abdul is less likely to get hired than Raju or Manpreet. But Raju and Manpreet are less likely to get hired than white man/woman Bob/Jane. So their is an ingrained caste system within British society.

it goes like this:

1) Highest tier: old money inherited , white goes to eton, oxbridge, ends up company deo/director or Tory Mp, army general, judge or QC.
2) Top Tier: Middle class new money, white privately educated perhaps not eton but somewhere else, son daughter of doctor,lawyer, ce0, medium business or top business owner. Goes to a red brick top 10 british uni.
3) Middle tier: Mostly white with smattering of black african and british indian/chinese and the odd pakistani/bangladeshi. (rare). parents own their own business, or are mid tier professionals, perhaps IT, civil service, private sector etc. Kids go to very very good govt schools and get into top twenty university.
4) Lower middle tier, Mostly white but larger smatterings of Indian,pakistani, black african, lower management in the public sector or call centres, parents were immigrants from the 60's or 70's who helped kids out, white family are parents with good pensions, who have worked in a single org for twnety plus years and have moved to reasonably good areas to live but not mega rich or "middle class" by any standard. Govt schools are ok but white kids epecially girsl do better here.
5) Lower tier. Dominated by Pakistani/bangladeshi, carribean origin families but alrge amount of white families too.and new immigrants from india and eastern europe. Sons daughters of taxi drivers, takeaway workers, factory workers, delivery drivers, postmen, bus drivers, jobless, zero hours workers, gig economy workers. Live in social housing in deprived areas. outcomes here are worse for white boys compared to pakistanis etc but better opp for them to move into apprenticeship roles and work their way out via sponsorships. Asians here tend to get stuck and just continue their parents lifestyles. More crime, black kids end up in jail or dead. Schools are poor, teachers are over worked and stressed, outcomes are not that far off from many poor countries especially infant mortality.