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[VIDEO] Statues of racist historical figures to be all torn down?

KingKhanWC

KingKhanWC

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Today in Bristol, Uk, the statue of Edward Colston, a prominent 17th Century slave trader was torn down and dumped into the river.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52954305

Police did nothing to stop this and nobody will face charges imo.

If this is acceptable, which others famous historical figures with statues should be torn down in the UK?

1. Winston Churchill
2. Nelson's column.
3. Ghandi
4. George IV
5. Robert Clive
6. Charles Darwin

The list goes on.

Imo none should be torn down out of protest. A debate should take place and legal permission should be sought.

This nonsense is only creating more hate and divide.
 
The Gandhi one in Washington DC was vandalized the other day. It shouldn’t be pulled down though, because people have short memories: out of sight, out of mind and all that. It should be repeatedly spray painted though. Make it an eyesore, and hope that the West grows out of its gratuitous veneration of this person.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">They've defaced Churchill! <a href="https://t.co/rkINK4oac6">pic.twitter.com/rkINK4oac6</a></p>— Jack Dawkins (@DawkinsReturns) <a href="https://twitter.com/DawkinsReturns/status/1269661639869153281?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 7, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It’s utterly disgraceful that a statue to a slaver survived as long as it did. <a href="https://t.co/hj1uxTtJ8d">https://t.co/hj1uxTtJ8d</a></p>— Gary Lineker (@GaryLineker) <a href="https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/1269678726800867328?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 7, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
We come to certain inflection points, and it is sagacious to recognize them. With the Black Lives Matter movement at a pivotal moment, we should all do our bit in highlighting Gandhi’s racism towards blacks, and thus rid the world of one of the Humsaaya Mulk’s most potent soft power weapons.
 
Nostalgic said:
The Gandhi one in Washington DC was vandalized the other day. It shouldn’t be pulled down though, because people have short memories: out of sight, out of mind and all that. It should be repeatedly spray painted though. Make it an eyesore, and hope that the West grows out of its gratuitous veneration of this person.
Click to expand...

Suprising most people see Ghandi as a symbol of peace and justice. People must be studying real history now.

Churchill's statue vandalised is as far as it gets. If BLM take down Churchills statue it send racism in the UK to new heights. Racist or not he is a hero for almost all white British people, they are very protective over him. I will eat my hat if his statue is taken down like Saddam.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Suprising most people see Ghandi as a symbol of peace and justice. People must be studying real history now.
Click to expand...

More likely that someone came across quotes from his time in South Africa, where he proclaimed the inherent superiority of the Indian over the black. Whatever works though. As a Pakistani I have a vested interest in this newfound realization of his racism catching on. What concerns me is certain official Pakistani handles actually praising Gandhi and Nehru in a vain attempt at highlighting their differences vis-a-vis Modi, when the Zeitgeist actually demands they highlight Gandhi’s racism. I hope they are cognizant of this and do the needful.
 
Nostalgic said:
We come to certain inflection points, and it is sagacious to recognize them. With the Black Lives Matter movement at a pivotal moment, we should all do our bit in highlighting Gandhi’s racism towards blacks, and thus rid the world of one of the Humsaaya Mulk’s most potent soft power weapons.
Click to expand...

We can expand this to the world.

Rajit Singh.jpg

Ranjit Singh at Lahore Fort. Didnt he persecute Muslims only because they are Muslims, yet his statue is standing proud aong with his horse in the heartland of Pakistan today?
 
Bigboii said:
It did create a LOT of controversy tho
Click to expand...

Do you know the reason why it still remains then? I really need to study this history, so simply am not sure if he was oppressive towards Muslims or if it was self defence of the land he ruled over?
 
What should have been a case against police brutality has turned into a suspected case of racism because the victim was black, without any evidence/trial.

This subjective assumption has now sparked riots/looting, many of whom are black. The businesses, homes, property etc are victims of black behaviour.

The vandalism of public property proves these protesters etc are not protesting because they care for BLM, Lloyd, Equality or justice, they're in it for the giggles after being in lockdown for months.

This behaviour will have reprecussions for years, and any progress towards justice and equality towards blacks has been throughly torpedeod by their behaviour in these worldwide protests. Then they wonder why people don't take BLM seriously.

There's a great meme going around. It has Martin Luther King, with the caption - 'Looted nothing, burned nothing, attacked no one - and changed the world.
 
KingKhanWC said:
We can expand this to the world.

View attachment 101414

Ranjit Singh at Lahore Fort. Didnt he persecute Muslims only because they are Muslims, yet his statue is standing proud aong with his horse in the heartland of Pakistan today?
Click to expand...

Isn't this in a museum and not out in the open? In any case, the man is venerated in some circles as an indigenous hero, so it would be hard to build a consensus.

Besides, he isn't a soft power tool for the Humsaaya Mulk, which is what concerns me about Gandhi. If anything, Ranjeet Singh, like Guru Nanak, may actually be a tool at our disposal in Khalistan.
 
Technics 1210 said:
What should have been a case against police brutality has turned into a suspected case of racism because the victim was black, without any evidence/trial.

This subjective assumption has now sparked riots/looting, many of whom are black. The businesses, homes, property etc are victims of black behaviour.

The vandalism of public property proves these protesters etc are not protesting because they care for BLM, Lloyd, Equality or justice, they're in it for the giggles after being in lockdown for months.

This behaviour will have reprecussions for years, and any progress towards justice and equality towards blacks has been throughly torpedeod by their behaviour in these worldwide protests. Then they wonder why people don't take BLM seriously.

There's a great meme going around. It has Martin Luther King, with the caption - 'Looted nothing, burned nothing, attacked no one - and changed the world.
Click to expand...

MLK didn't change much, he is another who is pushed foward for the peaceful protests propaganda, Malcolm X and Ali did more imo.

But yes I agree with you, this looting and damaging is only causing more people to hate black people. This is actually self harm crearing more division and hate.
 
Nostalgic said:
Isn't this in a museum and not out in the open? In any case, the man is venerated in some circles as an indigenous hero, so it would be hard to build a consensus.

Besides, he isn't a soft power tool for the Humsaaya Mulk, which is what concerns me about Gandhi. If anything, Ranjeet Singh, like Guru Nanak, may actually be a tool at our disposal in Khalistan.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it helps with the Gudwara tourism. Will have to reserach this man, hopefuly it wont lead me to damage his statue on my next visit to Lahore. We cant its a criminal act and besides this is a fantastic statue, one of the best I've seen, wonder who the artist is?
 
KingKhanWC said:
MLK didn't change much, he is another who is pushed foward for the peaceful protests propaganda, Malcolm X and Ali did more imo.

But yes I agree with you, this looting and damaging is only causing more people to hate black people. This is actually self harm crearing more division and hate.
Click to expand...

You know who killed MX right? A black man.
 
Nostalgic said:
Isn't this in a museum and not out in the open? In any case, the man is venerated in some circles as an indigenous hero, so it would be hard to build a consensus.

Besides, he isn't a soft power tool for the Humsaaya Mulk, which is what concerns me about Gandhi. If anything, Ranjeet Singh, like Guru Nanak, may actually be a tool at our disposal in Khalistan.
Click to expand...

Surely not any Muslim would consider him a hero. I am have no problem with the statue, but under his empire the life of a cow was worth more than a Muslim's. Not to mention he desecrated mosques, including converting the Badshai mosque as a horse stable.
 
KingKhanWC said:
I think the British use Ghandi as a propaganda, protest peacefully etc even if we are butchering you at the same time.

What was his issue against blacks ,calling them savages etc?
Click to expand...

Don't care about his racism. I hate him for his other sins. Worst thing to happen to india.

True, govts the world over have promoted him as role model for protests, as he was the ideal protestor any govt would like to see.
 
Technics 1210 said:
You know who killed MX right? A black man.
Click to expand...

The killer was just the one doing the dirty work.

Malcolm X did what MLK couldn't dare do. He gave up his slave name.

Blacks are out protesting but still walking around with a slave name, the name of the master who abused , violated, tortured and raped their anscestors. This is the stupidy of these people.
 
KingKhanWC said:
We can expand this to the world.

View attachment 101414

Ranjit Singh at Lahore Fort. Didnt he persecute Muslims only because they are Muslims, yet his statue is standing proud aong with his horse in the heartland of Pakistan today?
Click to expand...

Just shows how tolerant Pakistan is to other faiths while India continues removing and damaging the names of durrani, hyder, babar, khilji, alamgir etc
 
Nostalgic said:
More likely that someone came across quotes from his time in South Africa, where he proclaimed the inherent superiority of the Indian over the black. Whatever works though. As a Pakistani I have a vested interest in this newfound realization of his racism catching on. What concerns me is certain official Pakistani handles actually praising Gandhi and Nehru in a vain attempt at highlighting their differences vis-a-vis Modi, when the Zeitgeist actually demands they highlight Gandhi’s racism. I hope they are cognizant of this and do the needful.
Click to expand...

Apparently both ghandi and nehru families originate from servants and cooks of Royal mughals which probably explains nehrus kashmiri heritage
 
KingKhanWC said:
Perhaps it helps with the Gudwara tourism. Will have to reserach this man, hopefuly it wont lead me to damage his statue on my next visit to Lahore. We cant its a criminal act and besides this is a fantastic statue, one of the best I've seen, wonder who the artist is?
Click to expand...

Yea the only reason is to get Sikh tourist for Lahore. Which is fine.

Otherwise Sikhs have killed plenty of Punjabi, Kashmiri, and Pashtun Muslims. Including killing them for cow slaughter, banning Azaan, making the Badshahi Mosque into a horse stable. Abducting and selling Muslim women at Heera Mandi in Lahore. If you want to say Muslim Kings were bad then surely this guy was also bad.
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
Yea the only reason is to get Sikh tourist for Lahore. Which is fine.

Otherwise Sikhs have killed plenty of Punjabi, Kashmiri, and Pashtun Muslims. Including killing them for cow slaughter, banning Azaan, making the Badshahi Mosque into a horse stable. Abducting and selling Muslim women at Heera Mandi in Lahore. If you want to say Muslim Kings were bad then surely this guy was also bad.
Click to expand...

It needs to be taken down then. It's a disgrace to the name of Pakistan, a nation which was created to save Muslims from persecuation but now has a statue of such a man. Sikhs come to see their holy site not to see statues.
 
chacha kashmiri said:
Apparently both ghandi and nehru families originate from servants and cooks of Royal mughals which probably explains nehrus kashmiri heritage
Click to expand...

mohandas get's a lot of love from the so called liberals because the hindu right wing hates him. But they ignore that even the dalits have no love for mohandas either, and the darkest chapters in the constitution are because the drafting committee wanted to incorporate gandhi's views. But he is useful to show the world that india is the land of gandhi, the apostle of peace. btw he wasn't an islamophobe, not that i care, but might be an important virtue from pakistani perspective.
 
KingKhanWC said:
It needs to be taken down then. It's a disgrace to the name of Pakistan, a nation which was created to save Muslims from persecuation but now has a statue of such a man. Sikhs come to see their holy site not to see statues.
Click to expand...

Well there is a small Sikh population in Pakistan so its fine to have it for them. And its possible having one more attraction like a statue will make Sikhs visit more.

But the key point that some far left Pakistani liberals dont get is, in the 17th century Mughals were no longer foreigners to the subcontinent, and where there was a Muslim King Muslims had more rights, and vice versa where a Hindu/Sikh ruled the Hindus/Sikhs had more rights. So there is a very good reason why Pakistanis would support the Mughals and other local Muslim Kings over the Sikhs and Hindu Kings. Ultimately the far left liberals are the confused ones, yet they think that other Pakistanis are the ones with the identity crisis.
 
CricketCartoons said:
mohandas get's a lot of love from the so called liberals because the hindu right wing hates him. But they ignore that even the dalits have no love for mohandas either, and the darkest chapters in the constitution are because the drafting committee wanted to incorporate gandhi's views. But he is useful to show the world that india is the land of gandhi, the apostle of peace. btw he wasn't an islamophobe, not that i care, but might be an important virtue from pakistani perspective.
Click to expand...

Ghandi did alot for other castes which makes a change from the maratha/rajput dominated India of the last 300 years
As for his relationships with jawhar and later madani he had alot of respect and vice versa but ultimately his message of peace was no match for the religious fanatics
 
Nostalgic said:
Isn't this in a museum and not out in the open? In any case, the man is venerated in some circles as an indigenous hero, so it would be hard to build a consensus.

Besides, he isn't a soft power tool for the Humsaaya Mulk, which is what concerns me about Gandhi. If anything, Ranjeet Singh, like Guru Nanak, may actually be a tool at our disposal in Khalistan.
Click to expand...

Pro khalistan clowns realise that its core is in Pakistani Punjab ?. Lol.....
 
SpiritOf1903 said:
Heera is the name of of sikh owned food company .....
Click to expand...

Heera is the name of of sikh owned food company .....

Gharib Aadmi said:
Yea the only reason is to get Sikh tourist for Lahore. Which is fine.

Otherwise Sikhs have killed plenty of Punjabi, Kashmiri, and Pashtun Muslims. Including killing them for cow slaughter, banning Azaan, making the Badshahi Mosque into a horse stable. Abducting and selling Muslim women at Heera Mandi in Lahore. If you want to say Muslim Kings were bad then surely this guy was also bad.
Click to expand...

It's basically is byword Red Light district but meaning is 'diamond...
 
Graffiti was sprayed on the statue former prime minister Sir Winston Churchill in Westminster to add the words “was a racist”.

The writing was added to the base of the memorial in Parliament Square during the Black Lives Matter protest on Sunday.

Video footage showed a small crowd of demonstrators chanting “Churchill was a racist” and “Boris [Johnson] is a racist”.

A smaller group of people stood around the statue in an apparent attempt to protect it.

Four uniformed police stood nearby as the crowd took photographs.

Banners with messages such as “British Colonialism is to Blame” and “What if it was your son?” had earlier been left at the base of the column.

A Black Lives Matter sign was also strapped to Churchills’ belly.

The same statue was targeted by protesters on the anniversary of D-Day on Saturday, when the letters “ACAB” were added to the base in green neon paint. It is believed to stand for “All Cops are B****rds”.

Another sculpture of Churchill in New Bond Street, central London, was splashed with white paint in January 2019.

The latest incident happened shortly after demonstrators in Bristol tore down a statue of 17th slave trader and threw it into the city’s river.

Avon and Somerset launched a police investigation, while home secretary Priti Patel described the incident as “sheer vandalism”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...-statue-blm-protest-westminster-a9553476.html
 
Gadaffi was treated like the worst human to live, aided by Western forces. Weird... A Palestinian was recently killed, indiscriminately, disabled. Get the rainbow flags out habibis
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If Boris Johnson won't lead and stand up for the country, as its symbols are trashed, then people will start taking it into their own hands. Full on race riots are now possible. Show leadership and fast.</p>— Nigel Farage (@Nigel_Farage) <a href="https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1269705670670114816?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 7, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Appears those guarding the Winston Churchill statue were moved on by police. It was then trashed. <a href="https://t.co/G1ydnIOO3m">pic.twitter.com/G1ydnIOO3m</a></p>— Michael Heaver (@Michael_Heaver) <a href="https://twitter.com/Michael_Heaver/status/1269684821581799424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 7, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
MenInG said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If Boris Johnson won't lead and stand up for the country, as its symbols are trashed, then people will start taking it into their own hands. Full on race riots are now possible. Show leadership and fast.</p>— Nigel Farage (@Nigel_Farage) <a href="https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1269705670670114816?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 7, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Lol, the coward Farage should continue to lie low as he'll get trashed as well if he decides to crawl out from under the stone he's hiding.
 
Most of the protesters are looking for tamasha and have turned a serious issue into a circus. I want to hear proposals, not hear generic sociology lessons.
 
chacha kashmiri said:
Apparently both ghandi and nehru families originate from servants and cooks of Royal mughals which probably explains nehrus kashmiri heritage
Click to expand...

The whatsapp forward limit is 10 but still this information reached you. The one that reached my father was that Nehru's grandfather was a Muslim that converted.
I guess it depends upon religion which forward reaches you.
 
SpiritOf1903 said:
Pro khalistan clowns realise that its core is in Pakistani Punjab ?. Lol.....
Click to expand...

Stop correcting your people, I need them to try and force this Khalsa thing, you have already constructed a Kartarpur corridor, just let them push a little more...
 
KingKhanWC said:
We can expand this to the world.

View attachment 101414

Ranjit Singh at Lahore Fort. Didnt he persecute Muslims only because they are Muslims, yet his statue is standing proud aong with his horse in the heartland of Pakistan today?
Click to expand...

That's a majestic statue though. I think it is in Lahore Fort.
 
How is this any different than what the Islamic State did with old buildings in Syria?

Or, what the Taliban did with the statues of Bamyan?

Yes the motivations maybe different and the degree may not be as extreme.

Still the underlying principle is the same, right?
 
Sirris said:
How is this any different than what the Islamic State did with old buildings in Syria?

Or, what the Taliban did with the statues of Bamyan?

Yes the motivations maybe different and the degree may not be as extreme.

Still the underlying principle is the same, right?
Click to expand...

We are not talking about ISIS or the Taliban. You cant even do a whatabouttery here , as they did it for their own warped religious views not against any race. In fact ISIS had recruits from all over the world.

Lets not divert, are there any statues of racist historical people in Switzerland?
 
KingKhanWC said:
We are not talking about ISIS or the Taliban. You cant even do a whatabouttery here , as they did it for their own warped religious views not against any race. In fact ISIS had recruits from all over the world.

Lets not divert, are there any statues of racist historical people in Switzerland?
Click to expand...

This is not whatabouttery or attempt to divert.

I haven't made up my mind over all of this and this is me thinking out loud.

As I said the motivations of the groups are different but the underlying principle is the same: Destroy symbols representing a certain history, since you disagree with it.

The whole world including the educated people of the West condemned the actions of the Islamic State and the Taliban. Likewise I feel that if we follow the same principle than these actions deserve to be condemned too regardless if I agree with what the statue represents.

Most historical figures would appear racist and closed minded compared to our current values and openness to criticism.

We too perhaps one day be considered backwards and closed minded if humanity survives long enough.
 
KingKhanWC said:
We are not talking about ISIS or the Taliban. You cant even do a whatabouttery here , as they did it for their own warped religious views not against any race. In fact ISIS had recruits from all over the world.

Lets not divert, are there any statues of racist historical people in Switzerland?
Click to expand...

This is not whatabouttery or attempt to divert.

I haven't made up my mind over all of this and this is me thinking out loud.

As I said the motivations of the groups are different but the underlying principle is the same: Destroy symbols representing a certain history, since you disagree with it.

The whole world including the educated people of the West condemned the actions of the Islamic State and the Taliban. Likewise I feel that if we follow the same principle than these actions deserve to be condemned too regardless if I agree with what the statue represents.

Most historical figures would appear racist and closed minded compared to our current values and openness to criticism.

We too perhaps one day be considered backwards and closed minded if humanity survives long enough.
 
Syed1 said:
That's a majestic statue though. I think it is in Lahore Fort.
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Best part of the statue is, next time the "Woke" crowd points wants things named after Muslims removed one can threaten to remove statue of this thug as well.
 
If you can't take down a statue honouring a slaver, then might as well bring Jimmy Saville's statue back.
 
Ranjit Singh is Punjab’s greatest hero and his statue deserves to stand tall in Punjab’s greatest city (Lahore).
 
People who want to destroy statues cannot even draw a circle on a paper. An artist and someone who appreciate art will never think of vandalizing art even if he dislikes the subject simply because of the respect for the artist and his/her years of hard work.

It is important to understand that people are largely a product of their time and environment. As a result, it is unfair to judge the racism of historical figures through modern perspective.

If they were born in today’s time, they would have likely acted in a different manner.

BLM is a valid movement because there is no place for racism against the blacks in today’s world. The fact that such events are happening in 2020 clearly illustrates how far we have yet to go in terms of curbing discrimination.

Nevertheless, destroying property, artwork etc. will not change anything. Protesters never seem to understand this concept.
 
I can understand the sentiment of pulling down statues glorifying empire, but by pulling them down, you are erasing history. How would you teach future generations about what happened if you remove all trace of it?

If in time, the people of a locality want to replace some figures with something more current, that is fine, but it should be a collective decision, not an act of vandalism.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
I can understand the sentiment of pulling down statues glorifying empire, but by pulling them down, you are erasing history. How would you teach future generations about what happened if you remove all trace of it?

If in time, the people of a locality want to replace some figures with something more current, that is fine, but it should be a collective decision, not an act of vandalism.
Click to expand...

You are not erasing history, but stopping the glorification of that history. Icons are very useful in maintaining a historical narrative. Keeping a certain history omnipresent, in school books, names of govt schemes, buildings, currency notes is what keeps the narrative alive.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Today in Bristol, Uk, the statue of Edward Colston, a prominent 17th Century slave trader was torn down and dumped into the river.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52954305

Police did nothing to stop this and nobody will face charges imo.

If this is acceptable, which others famous historical figures with statues should be torn down in the UK?

1. Winston Churchill
2. Nelson's column.
3. Ghandi
4. George IV
5. Robert Clive
6. Charles Darwin

The list goes on.

Imo none should be torn down out of protest. A debate should take place and legal permission should be sought.

This nonsense is only creating more hate and divide.
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I would avoid making false equivalence between bigots for whom racism and bigotry was such a core value to them that they actively tried to stop any reform or changes, and bigots who were bigoted only because it was the normal thing in their time but they weren't trying to stop any progressive movements of the time.

The first group actually made profit and their living off of oppressing minorities, and making sure the status quo remains the same, while the second group were bigoted only because it was normal at the time however it didn't benefit them personally nor did they try to stop any movements.
 
CricketCartoons said:
You are not erasing history, but stopping the glorification of that history. Icons are very useful in maintaining a historical narrative. Keeping a certain history omnipresent, in school books, names of govt schemes, buildings, currency notes is what keeps the narrative alive.
Click to expand...

Then they can be replaced by something better. The problem with pressure groups taking the decision into their own hands, is where does it stop?What if a patriot group counters by pulling down mosques or setting fire to the hindu temple in Wembley? I will be interested to see how the authorities react to this as it could set a precedent.
 
Mamoon said:
Ranjit Singh is Punjab’s greatest hero and his statue deserves to stand tall in Punjab’s greatest city (Lahore).
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Once India reunites and Punjab is whole again, then you can push that cause. Only India can make this happen, but they won't because they would gain 200m Muslim citizens which would give Muslims in India a huge vote bank. It would cripple parties like the BJP, and what then for your much admired Modi?
 
Mamoon said:
People who want to destroy statues cannot even draw a circle on a paper. An artist and someone who appreciate art will never think of vandalizing art even if he dislikes the subject simply because of the respect for the artist and his/her years of hard work.

It is important to understand that people are largely a product of their time and environment. As a result, it is unfair to judge the racism of historical figures through modern perspective.

If they were born in today’s time, they would have likely acted in a different manner.

BLM is a valid movement because there is no place for racism against the blacks in today’s world. The fact that such events are happening in 2020 clearly illustrates how far we have yet to go in terms of curbing discrimination.

Nevertheless, destroying property, artwork etc. will not change anything. Protesters never seem to understand this concept.
Click to expand...

Bingo. So true.
 
Mamoon said:
Ranjit Singh is Punjab’s greatest hero and his statue deserves to stand tall in Punjab’s greatest city (Lahore).
Click to expand...

Why?

Because he happened to conquer some land and hailed from Punjab?

He maybe a hero for the Sikh people and some Hindus, who despise the Muslim heritage of the Subcontinent but that's it.

Sikhism is a religion which originated from Punjab, considers Punjab to be a holy place and Punjabi to be a sacred language.

Still, Muslims from Punjab rejected it, weren't impressed by it and did not glorify it, no matter how strong the ethnic bond may have been. They preferred to stick with their Muslim identity. This deserves to be respected and no amount of tendency of others to primarily identify along the ethnic lines or hold the ethnic identity superior than other forms of identity, can shame the people of Punjab in doing the same.
 
Nostalgic said:
The Gandhi one in Washington DC was vandalized the other day. It shouldn’t be pulled down though, because people have short memories: out of sight, out of mind and all that. It should be repeatedly spray painted though. Make it an eyesore, and hope that the West grows out of its gratuitous veneration of this person.
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You can take down any number of Gandhi statues but it won't diminish his stature as an apostle of peace one little bit. Even Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King were inspired by Gandhi.

Gandhi was smarter and had better marketing skills than all his detractors combined. The man remains a colossus decades after his death and still makes his critics looks like a bunch of newborns.
 
Last edited:
Sirris said:
Why?

Because he happened to conquer some land and hailed from Punjab?

He maybe a hero for the Sikh people and some Hindus, who despise the Muslim heritage of the Subcontinent but that's it.

Sikhism is a religion which originated from Punjab, considers Punjab to be a holy place and Punjabi to be a sacred language.

Still, Muslims from Punjab rejected it, weren't impressed by it and did not glorify it, no matter how strong the ethnic bond may have been. They preferred to stick with their Muslim identity. This deserves to be respected and no amount of tendency of others to primarily identify along the ethnic lines or hold the ethnic identity superior than other forms of identity, can shame the people of Punjab in doing the same.
Click to expand...

Sikh Empire wasnt a Punjabi empire. It was a Sikh and Hindu one. For the Sikh emperors the lives of cows was worth more than Muslims. They closed Mosques and banned Azaans. Made Muslims pay discriminatory taxes. And some clowns think he is a hero for Muslims.

Even if the emperors were not religious they still favored Sikhs and Hindus. Same way even if the Mughal emperors were not religious they still favored Muslims.
 
gani999 said:
You can take down any number of Gandhi statues but it won't diminish his stature as an apostle of peace one little bit. Even Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King were inspired by Gandhi.

Gandhi was smarter and had better marketing skills than all his detractors combined. The man remains a colossus decades after his death and still makes his critics looks like a bunch of newborns.
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I agree that he was a great man for his time, and his statue should not be taken down. However if White People who lived centuries ago are being judged by 21st century values and having statues taken down, then you need to apply the same principal across the board. And if you judge Gandhi by 2020 PC culture he certainly does not deserve a statue.
 
gani999 said:
You can take down any number of Gandhi statues but it won't diminish his stature as an apostle of peace one little bit. Even Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King were inspired by Gandhi.

Gandhi was smarter and had better marketing skills than all his detractors combined. The man remains a colossus decades after his death and still makes his critics looks like a bunch of newborns.
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But Gandhi was also a racist, have you read what he said the black Africans? My point is that historical figures will create polarised opinions and what those guys did yesterday was criminal.
 
gani999 said:
You can take down any number of Gandhi statues but it won't diminish his stature as an apostle of peace one little bit. Even Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King were inspired by Gandhi.

Gandhi was smarter and had better marketing skills than all his detractors combined. The man remains a colossus decades after his death and still makes his critics looks like a bunch of newborns.
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You are right, you cannot change history even if you take down the statues, meaning no matter how many statues, it doesn't change the fact Mandela was a terrorist, before he became statesman.
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
I agree that he was a great man for his time, and his statue should not be taken down. However if White People who lived centuries ago are being judged by 21st century values and having statues taken down, then you need to apply the same principal across the board. And if you judge Gandhi by 2020 PC culture he certainly does not deserve a statue.
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My point was that taking down a statue will do nothing to mar Gandhi's greatness (or the lack of it). Symbolic acts never helped anyone. In the end, people will respect something and accord it greatness if it helps their cause, all detractors be damned. Gandhi's ideology helped people further their goals and he will be remembered for that.

Another case in point is Cecile Rhodes, who was a well known racist. Yet many coloured people (Several notable Indians and Pakistanis included) have had no qualms in accepting the scholarship that he instituted with his name in Oxford University.

In the end if it works for you, take it, make merry, enjoy the good life it brings and don't waste your time breaking statues.
 
gani999 said:
My point was that taking down a statue will do nothing to mar Gandhi's greatness (or the lack of it). Symbolic acts never helped anyone. In the end, people will respect something and accord it greatness if it helps their cause, all detractors be damned. Gandhi's ideology helped people further their goals and he will be remembered for that.

Another case in point is Cecile Rhodes, who was a well known racist. Yet many coloured people (Several notable Indians and Pakistanis included) have had no qualms in accepting the scholarship that he instituted with his name in Oxford University.

In the end if it works for you, take it, make merry, enjoy the good life it brings and don't waste your time breaking statues.
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Colored people is considered offensive. at least in the US. The correct term in the US is people of color.

With the rest of the post i agree.
 
JaDed said:
Stop correcting your people, I need them to try and force this Khalsa thing, you have already constructed a Kartarpur corridor, just let them push a little more...
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It's hilarious. sikhs generally dislike Pakistanis and year to return.

Yes, india would lose punjab but an allie would be forged who'd overtake Pakistani punjab. The naivety is incredible
 
SpiritOf1903 said:
It's hilarious. sikhs generally dislike Pakistanis and year to return.

Yes, india would lose punjab but an allie would be forged who'd overtake Pakistani punjab. The naivety is incredible
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So a landlocked and non-nuclear Khalistan would be a threat to Pakistan? Please pass me whatever you are sniffing. :kp



It's like Nepal or Bhutan speaking out against India. :srt


What is more likely is that Pakistan would forge good relations with them and have an open borders policy. This will also help us in the sense that Ravi and Chenab have almost gone dry and an allied Khalistan would not divert these rivers to the rest of India.
 
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Syed1 said:
So a landlocked and non-nuclear Khalistan would be a threat to Pakistan? Please pass me whatever you are sniffing. :kp



It's like Nepal or Bhutan speaking out against India. :srt


What is more likely is that Pakistan would forge good relations with them and have an open borders policy. This will also help us in the sense that Ravi and Chenab have almost gone dry and an allied Khalistan would not divert these rivers to the rest of India.
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The thing is Sikhs are like sect of Hinduisim. They have way more in common with a Hindu from Gujarat or Bengal than they eve would have with a Pakistani, even a Punjabi. So its unlikely that they have any interest in Khalistan, and if the Karatpur corridor was done only in hopes of starting some rebellion against India then it was a waste of money.
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
The thing is Sikhs are like sect of Hinduisim. They have way more in common with a Hindu from Gujarat or Bengal than they eve would have with a Pakistani, even a Punjabi. So its unlikely that they have any interest in Khalistan, and if the Karatpur corridor was done only in hopes of starting some rebellion against India then it was a waste of money.
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Pakistanis have a tendency to hype the Khalistan movement, but it is also a reality that it in an indigenous independence movement inside India. Obviously not every Sikh is against India, but definitely there are some who want Khalistan. You need to see pictures of the pro-Khalistan rallies inside India on 6th June 2020.
 
SpiritOf1903 said:
It's hilarious. sikhs generally dislike Pakistanis and year to return.

Yes, india would lose punjab but an allie would be forged who'd overtake Pakistani Punjab. The naivety is incredible
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Its one thing if some common guy believes in starting something like a Khalistan movement. But i really really hope the Pakistani leadership is not that dumb to believe in it. And that the only reason they did Karatpur corridor was because they were naive enough to believe it will start a rebellion in Indian Punajb.
 
Syed1 said:
Pakistanis have a tendency to hype the Khalistan movement, but it is also a reality that it in an indigenous independence movement inside India. Obviously not every Sikh is against India, but definitely there are some who want Khalistan. You need to see pictures of the pro-Khalistan rallies inside India on 6th June 2020.
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Even if some how Khalistan was formed, why would they be allied with Muslim Pakistan vs Hindu majority India. Sikhs ruled Punjab and Kashmir, and KP.......They certainly favored the Hindus over the Muslims. It was really a century of humiliation for Muslims, from discriminatory taxes, to being killed for cow slaughter, mosques desecrated, azaan banned, etc......In fact you can make a case they treated Muslims worse than any Hindu ruler.
 
Syed1 said:
Pakistanis have a tendency to hype the Khalistan movement, but it is also a reality that it in an indigenous independence movement inside India. Obviously not every Sikh is against India, but definitely there are some who want Khalistan. You need to see pictures of the pro-Khalistan rallies inside India on 6th June 2020.
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Some Sikhs might want it, the rallies are still small compared to their population, the biggest reason why many Sikhs would already be hesitant is because of their holy places from Hem Khund Sahib in Himachal to places in Bihar and Maharashtra, its very spread out and there has been peace in around those location.Not to forget the massive population in Delhi.

Irrespective I understand why Pakistanis would want to try.
 
JaDed said:
Some Sikhs might want it, the rallies are still small compared to their population, the biggest reason why many Sikhs would already be hesitant is because of their holy places from Hem Khund Sahib in Himachal to places in Bihar and Maharashtra, its very spread out and there has been peace in around those location.Not to forget the massive population in Delhi.

Irrespective I understand why Pakistanis would want to try.
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Pakistan should not want to try. Khalistan is a Sikh religious movement, it has no common ground with Pakistan. The only way Punjab can ever be united again is either India annexes Pakistan ( never going to happen for reasons I gave in the earlier post) or the subcontinent breaks up into smaller states in general.
 
Gharib Aadmi said:
Even if some how Khalistan was formed, why would they be allied with Muslim Pakistan vs Hindu majority India. Sikhs ruled Punjab and Kashmir, and KP.......They certainly favored the Hindus over the Muslims. It was really a century of humiliation for Muslims, from discriminatory taxes, to being killed for cow slaughter, mosques desecrated, azaan banned, etc......In fact you can make a case they treated Muslims worse than any Hindu ruler.
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Sikhs were also treated worse than most Hindus, Mughals literally murdered the 9th Guru (out of 10) , you should see the paintings in these gurudwaras they have of Mughals killing Sikhs, and these Mughals are heroes of most Pakistanis.

In Sikh's mind they think Ranjit Singh was a fair ruler irrespective of religion, ofcourse he is not but that's how they see him.

As a Punjabi ,Ranjit Singh should be the nearest to a "hero" for me and Dogras the ones who betrayed, yet as history teaches us kings are useless and better to support a Republic nation but old is gold in everyone's mind.
 
Wait till the protesters read about Abraham Lincoln's racist views :trump. But honestly we must judge historical characters based on their era and not 21st century standards.
 
JaDed said:
Sikhs were also treated worse than most Hindus, Mughals literally murdered the 9th Guru (out of 10) , you should see the paintings in these gurudwaras they have of Mughals killing Sikhs, and these Mughals are heroes of most Pakistanis.

In Sikh's mind they think Ranjit Singh was a fair ruler irrespective of religion, ofcourse he is not but that's how they see him.

As a Punjabi ,Ranjit Singh should be the nearest to a "hero" for me and Dogras the ones who betrayed, yet as history teaches us kings are useless and better to support a Republic nation but old is gold in everyone's mind.
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They probably dislike Muslims more than Hindus do ... Its inherent to their existence.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"I think our Home Secretary and our Prime Minister should try and walk in the shoes of a black person in Bristol."<br> <a href="https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@SadiqKhan</a> says the lack of empathy shown by Priti Patel and Boris Johnson over the Bristol state is "breathtaking".<br><br>More on this: <a href="https://t.co/auhdNZWQjU">https://t.co/auhdNZWQjU</a> <a href="https://t.co/zbZQ9q7RpC">pic.twitter.com/zbZQ9q7RpC</a></p>— SkyNews (@SkyNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1270017153366982663?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 8, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
ahsan17 said:
I would avoid making false equivalence between bigots for whom racism and bigotry was such a core value to them that they actively tried to stop any reform or changes, and bigots who were bigoted only because it was the normal thing in their time but they weren't trying to stop any progressive movements of the time.

The first group actually made profit and their living off of oppressing minorities, and making sure the status quo remains the same, while the second group were bigoted only because it was normal at the time however it didn't benefit them personally nor did they try to stop any movements.
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Im not sure the argument 'normal in their times ' hold any value. Of course they wouldn't do it today as there there is no slave trade but such people with the same mentality still exist, difference is they have other means, ie Iraq war, butcher people to take their oil.

Prophet(Muhammed pbuh) was born over a 1000 years before in a very backward culture but was against racism. Sure he is special but to say racism was normal doesnt give the whole picture, plenty throughout the centuries were against racism and it was known as morally wrong.
 
Slavetraders.jpg


These could also fall soon.
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] what is your view on this?
 
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