[VIDEOS] Jewish people against Zionism

[Itachi]

What are you on about? The West Bank is meant to be autonomous but Israel act violently towards the Palestinians when they've no right. Gaza is under a blockade and Israel use it for bombing practice.

Children, women beaten and imprisoned by men. This is an apartheid state.

First rule about reading a post in a forum.

READ THE CONTEXT OF A POST.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

This comes to age old philosophy.

The world has limited resources. Hence, if you are doing something yourself, for you, another person will face hard time.

For example, I am sure you have a job. Had you not apply, who knows there could have been a guy or girl who got the job who has ill parents at home to look after in the brink of financial downfall due to years of treatment.

If you are going for something, there will always be someone at the receiving end.

Lol at this comparison. Lol

 

[Civil]

Its not ethnic cleansing if two groups are fighting among each other.

Its a clash between two ethno groups.

Otherwise, most conflicts in this world will point to ethnic cleansing.

This is very incorrect. Ethnic cleansing has a very specific and simple definition and it is irrelevant whether the group that is being cleansed is in a clash or not.

Example is 90s Yugoslav wars. All the groups were clashing. Yet People were ethnically cleansed from areas, in fact the terms popularity began from that war.

Rwanda is another example of genocide and ethnic cleansing, during a conflict.

 

[Itachi]

This is very incorrect. Ethnic cleansing has a very specific and simple definition and it is irrelevant whether the group that is being cleansed is in a clash or not.

Example is 90s Yugoslav wars. All the groups were clashing. Yet People were ethnically cleansed from areas, in fact the terms popularity began from that war.

Rwanda is another example of genocide and ethnic cleansing, during a conflict.

correct or incorrect of an entity depends upon what frame of reference you take.

For example, if you take newtonian physics, time is not a dimension but if we are talking about theory of relativity, time is a dimension.

coming to the context, in any clash, there will be more than one party which could belong to same community or different community on case to case basis. if I go by your definition, then every conflict results in to ethnic cleansing. Every conflict is a genocide, massacre resulting in to ethnic cleansing wherever death occurs.

But it doesn't taken as in reality.

In mathematics, if we assume something but in the end reach a wrong conclusion, it means our initial assumption was wrong in the first place.

I did the same in your case. I took your statement and weigh it in different cases but it didn't fit in case of most conflicts. So from pov of my frame reference, you are wrong.

 

[ManFan]

correct or incorrect of an entity depends upon what frame of reference you take.

For example, if you take newtonian physics, time is not a dimension but if we are talking about theory of relativity, time is a dimension.

coming to the context, in any clash, there will be more than one party which could belong to same community or different community on case to case basis. if I go by your definition, then every conflict results in to ethnic cleansing. Every conflict is a genocide, massacre resulting in to ethnic cleansing wherever death occurs.

But it doesn't taken as in reality.

In mathematics, if we assume something but in the end reach a wrong conclusion, it means our initial assumption was wrong in the first place.

I did the same in your case. I took your statement and weigh it in different cases but it didn't fit in case of most conflicts. So from pov of my frame reference, you are wrong.

So much beating around the bush. Unbelievable.

 

[Itachi]

So much beating around the bush. Unbelievable.

If you could show flaws in my argument, It'll be more helpful as I might also learn something else in the process and have a constructive discussion about it.

 

[ManFan]

If you could show flaws in my argument, It'll be more helpful as I might also learn something else in the process and have a constructive discussion about it.

Would you say that Muslims who are against the idea of the restoration of a Caliphate, are anti-Muslim? Or Muslims against the restoration of Al-Andalus, anti-Muslim?

Or Hindus/Buddhists against the recreation of the Mauryan Empire, anti-Hindu/Buddhist?

Or even Catholics against the HRE restoration, anti-Catholics?

Or Native Americans against being given their land, anti-Native-American?

Yes or No.

 

[Itachi]

Would you say that Muslims who are against the idea of the restoration of a Caliphate, are anti-Muslim? Or Muslims against the restoration of Al-Andalus, anti-Muslim?

Or Hindus/Buddhists against the recreation of the Mauryan Empire, anti-Hindu/Buddhist?

Or even Catholics against the HRE restoration, anti-Catholics?

Or Native Americans against being given their land, anti-Native-American?

Yes or No.

No.

 

[ManFan]

No.

So, why would Jewish people who are against the restoration of Israel (anti-Zionists) be anti-Jewish?

Especially since, they have all the reason for wanting one (Holocaust, etc.)

It’s because it comes at the cost of others. And they would be committing the same crime their forefathers endured.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

If you could show flaws in my argument, It'll be more helpful as I might also learn something else in the process and have a constructive discussion about it.

Well in order for that to happen, I would need to know your position regarding something.

Do you believe in any divine deity or are you an atheist or any other ideology for that matter ?

 

[Itachi]

So, why would Jewish people who are against the restoration of Israel (anti-Zionists) be anti-Jewish?

Especially since, they have all the reason for wanting one (Holocaust, etc.)

It’s because it comes at the cost of others. And they would be committing the same crime their forefathers endured.

Where did I say they are anti Jewish?

 

[Itachi]

Well in order for that to happen, I would need to know your position regarding something.

Do you believe in any divine deity or are you an atheist or any other ideology for that matter ?

I am an atheist.

 

[ManFan]

Where did I say they are anti Jewish?

Your first post asked why Zionism is bad if the Jews want it.

You then asked how is it based on discrimination?

The OP made the thread title for a reason.

I am showing you how faulty the logic of Zionism is.

 

[Itachi]

Your first post asked why Zionism is bad if the Jews want it.

You then asked how is it based on discrimination?

The OP made the thread title for a reason.

I am showing you how faulty the logic of Zionism is.

What kind of logic is this?

I asked why zionism is bad since zionism is for the interest of the Jewish people.

That doesn't mean if someone is against it, he or she is anti Jewish.

This is the problem with some muslims I've seen here.

"If you are not with me, then you are against me."

This may or may not be true. if one is not in the position of one extreme, it doesn't mean he or she is in the other extreme position.

 

[ManFan]

What kind of logic is this?

I asked why zionism is bad since zionism is for the interest of the Jewish people.

That doesn't mean if someone is against it, he or she is anti Jewish.

This is the problem with some muslims I've seen here.

"If you are not with me, then you are against me."

This may or may not be true. if one is not in the position of one extreme, it doesn't mean he or she is in the other extreme position.

You just miscomprehended what I wrote.

I was making the point that they are not anti-Jewish for doing so.

You asked why Zionism was bad and I just told you why. It’s in the interest of Jewish individuals but that does not justify it because it is using the wrong methods to do so.

For example, Stalin wanted to achieve worldwide communism for total equality. But he used mass murder to do achieve this. His final aim may have been morally correct but his methods were not so.

The ends do not always justify the means.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I am an atheist.

Do you believe killing of innocent people is right or wrong?

 

[Itachi]

You just miscomprehended what I wrote.

I was making the point that they are not anti-Jewish for doing so.

You asked why Zionism was bad and I just told you why. It’s in the interest of Jewish individuals but that does not justify it because it is using the wrong methods to do so.

For example, Stalin wanted to achieve worldwide communism for total equality. But he used mass murder to do achieve this. His final aim may have been morally correct but his methods were not so.

The ends do not always justify the means.

This can be attributed to anything including zionism.

It just depends upon how far you will go for that entity.

Islamic terrorism follows the same principle but on the extreme side.

The entity itself isn't at fault. Some people who misguides in the name of the entity is at fault.

 

[Itachi]

Do you believe killing of innocent people is right or wrong?

wrong.

 

[ManFan]

This can be attributed to anything including zionism.

It just depends upon how far you will go for that entity.

Islamic terrorism follows the same principle but on the extreme side.

The entity itself isn't at fault. Some people who misguides in the name of the entity is at fault.

And what happens if those misguided are in power? Do we not criticize their actions as they declare their philosophy and act as its most ardent advocates by imposing it on others?

We certainly do this for fundamentalists in the ME. We do this for Christians who use religion for tax-breaks in the US.

Why not the same criticism for Zionists? Why the hesitation? Why not the same level of outcry? Even the most zealous anti-religious atheists like Christopher Hitchens, could recognize who was at fault in the situation.

 

[Itachi]

And what happens if those misguided are in power? Do we not criticize their actions as they declare their philosophy and act as its most ardent advocates by imposing it on others?

We certainly do this for fundamentalists in the ME. We do this for Christians who use religion for tax-breaks in the US.

Why not the same criticism for Zionists? Why the hesitation? Why not the same level of outcry? Even the most zealous anti-religious atheists like Christopher Hitchens, could recognize who was at fault in the situation.

blame the authority. But why the entity?

Should Islam be blamed for Islamic terrorism if I use the same logic?

 

[ManFan]

blame the authority. But why the entity?

Should Islam be blamed for Islamic terrorism if I use the same logic?

Because in this case, the authority is adhering to the philosophy of the “entity”. Therefore, the “entity” is at complete fault.

And knowing you, I know what you’ll ask next. “Doesn’t Islam say to kill and conquer?” If you search the verses in context, you’ll realize quickly that they are relating to the war with the Quraysh in Mecca.

 

[Itachi]

Because in this case, the authority is adhering to the philosophy of the “entity”. Therefore, the “entity” is at complete fault.

And knowing you, I know what you’ll ask next. “Doesn’t Islam say to kill and conquer?” If you search the verses in context, you’ll realize quickly that they are relating to the war with the Quraysh in Mecca.

Show me where in zionism ideology, it promotes killing of innocent people.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Show me where in zionism ideology, it promotes killing of innocent people.

See post number #21 and #8 of this thread.

You have a bunch of Jew professors, politicians, rabbis and scientists explaining and denouncing Zionism.

 

[Itachi]

See post number #21 and #8 of this thread.

You have a bunch of Jew professors, politicians, rabbis and scientists explaining and denouncing Zionism.

So what? there are lots of people who has left Islam and have hatred towards it.

Does it mean Islam is an evil entity?

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

So what? there are lots of people who has left Islam and have hatred towards it.

Does it mean Islam is an evil entity?

Are you claiming these people (like Einstein) aren't Jews because they do not support Zionist agenda? Here where I live, we call it Fascism and antisemitism.

Reflect on it.

Islam is a religion and people like ISIS do not represent Islam. Same way Zionists do not represent Judaism which is a religion. Both ISIS and Zionists like to bomb schools and hospitals and both are funded by same people.

But you already know all that, don't you?

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Neo-Zionist Indian Fascism

Definition of fascism

1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control

Gather around fellas, according to these Neo Zionist Hindutvas, all the Jews who do not support Zionism should be stripped off their passports and their opinions carry no weight. As a matter of fact, they can't even call themselves Jews no more.

And here we thought that the world had defeated this mentality back in WWII.

According to these Neo Zionists, agree with their supremacist idealogy or you will be expelled.

 

[Itachi]

Are you claiming these people (like Einstein) aren't Jews because they do not support Zionist agenda? Here where I live, we call it Fascism and antisemitism.

Reflect on it.

Islam is a religion and people like ISIS do not represent Islam. Same way Zionists do not represent Judaism which is a religion. Both ISIS and Zionists like to bomb schools and hospitals and both are funded by same people.

But you already know all that, don't you?

1. where did I say they were not Jews?

2. where does in zionism ideology promotes killing of innocent people, bombing schools and hospitals?

 

[Dr_Bassim]

wrong.

Yet you just said a while back that in order for one person / clan / group to be successful the other person must be trampled or sat upon.

You disagree that killing is wrong (more on that later) but you say to protect the vested interest of the group it will happen.


Would you explain the dichotomy?

 

[Itachi]

Yet you just said a while back that in order for one person / clan / group to be successful the other person must be trampled or sat upon.

You disagree that killing is wrong (more on that later) but you say to protect the vested interest of the group it will happen.


Would you explain the dichotomy?

Life doesn't run on moral values.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

1. where did I say they were not Jews?

2. where does in zionism ideology promotes killing of innocent people, bombing schools and hospitals?

1. You did insinuate their opinion doesn't matter.

2. You have a bunch of Jews from all walks of life exposing Zionism in #8 and #21.

 

[Itachi]

1. You did insinuate their opinion doesn't matter.

2. You have a bunch of Jews from all walks of life exposing Zionism in #8 and #21.

1. where did I insinuate? can you quote those words?.

2. a bunch of Jews walked out so what? people have differences with ideology all the time due to which they may walk out. How does that validate the entity is wrong?

If I go by your logic, the number of sites that ex Muslims have put hatred through, Islam is the most evil entity in the world.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

1. where did I insinuate? can you quote those words?.

2. a bunch of Jews walked out so what? people have differences with ideology all the time due to which they may walk out. How does that validate the entity is wrong?

If I go by your logic, the number of sites that ex Muslims have put hatred through, Islam is the most evil entity in the world.

Yeah, Islam ain't dropping bombs on Gaza. It is Zionists who drop bombs on Gaza.

 

[Itachi]

Yeah, Islam ain't dropping bombs on Gaza. It is Zionists who drop bombs on Gaza.

answer my questions please.

I've already answered every question that I was asked here.

If you have any, I will answer.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

answer my questions please.

I've already answered every question that I was asked here.

If you have any, I will answer.

You are in a different wavelength. Your questions are philosophical and don't make sense.

These people are wrong and evil because they have killed 79 kids and 250 adults.

Why even bother with this absurd back and forth if you have already made up your mind.

You can support Zionist terror. It is your right.

 

[Itachi]

You are in a different wavelength. Your questions are philosophical and don't make sense.

These people are wrong and evil because they have killed 79 kids and 250 adults.

Why even bother with this absurd back and forth if you have already made up your mind.

You can support Zionist terror. It is your right.

I am not supporting anything.

I am just asking questions here.

I haven't even made a statement regarding what you alleged me of.

 

[Itachi]

going through the conversation with people here which oppose zionism, here's what I found:

1. no actually knows what zionism is (or atleast can't refer to or give citation for their claims) regarding various allegations.

2. everyone has came with a pre judgement and when asked questions, they will reply anything but the answer.

3. zionism is specifically pointed out for extremism but for other entities for same cases, the blame goes to execution. why? answer is in #2.

4. when talking about ideology; philosophical perspective is not welcomed and doesn't make any sense (I don't understand this because every ideology has a philosophy behind it so it should make perfect sense).

5. if you ask too many questions, you will be alleged of saying things which you haven't said yet, when asked what was being said, no one shows where the flaw of the argument was.

For all the zionism opposers, I just have one question.

have you ever considered that perhaps zionism, same as other ideologies wasn't at fault but it was the execution by people which may be at fault?

Why should give bad names to zionism if such is the case?

Any opposing or supporting or mixed view is welcome.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

going through the conversation with people here which oppose zionism, here's what I found:

1. no actually knows what zionism is (or atleast can't refer to or give citation for their claims) regarding various allegations.

2. everyone has came with a pre judgement and when asked questions, they will reply anything but the answer.

3. zionism is specifically pointed out for extremism but for other entities for same cases, the blame goes to execution. why? answer is in #2.

4. when talking about ideology; philosophical perspective is not welcomed and doesn't make any sense (I don't understand this because every ideology has a philosophy behind it so it should make perfect sense).

5. if you ask too many questions, you will be alleged of saying things which you haven't said yet, when asked what was being said, no one shows where the flaw of the argument was.

For all the zionism opposers, I just have one question.

have you ever considered that perhaps zionism, same as other ideologies wasn't at fault but it was the execution by people which may be at fault?

Why should give bad names to zionism if such is the case?

Any opposing or supporting or mixed view is welcome.

Then the execution by the people representing zionism needs to be put right.

 

[Itachi]

Then the execution by the people representing zionism needs to be put right.

of course. as with any other ideology, it may suffer from extremism which should be put to right.

 

[Zaz]

Life doesn't run on moral values.

It actually does Most people are taught growing up right from wrong, good from bad If you to see someone injured or an injustice being committed most people would help or step in

Its what makes us human You lose morality then you lose your humanity

 

[Itachi]

It actually does Most people are taught growing up right from wrong, good from bad If you to see someone injured or an injustice being committed most people would help or step in

Its what makes us human You lose morality then you lose your humanity

Right and wrong depends on frame of reference.

For example, idol worship is sin in Islam but in Hinduism, most people do idol worship.

In order to judge, you'll need to take different frame of reference and should see it from different perspective and then make up mind.

But then again, how is it relevant to this thread?

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Life doesn't run on moral values.

See this is where I don't understand you (or any other atheist for that matter who claims they know moral values).

You argue that life doesn't run on moral values.

Where do you get your moral values from since you don't believe in ANY GOD per se.

Me? I know my religion tells me this is right and this wrong.

You? NO GOD, no Jehovah, No deity. Right?

So for you Zionists or Israel trampling on Palestinians should be okay based on any frame of reference.

And it is.

I follow you so far.

But then you take the high ground and say killing innocent people is wrong.

How?

 

[Zaz]

Right and wrong depends on frame of reference.

For example, idol worship is sin in Islam but in Hinduism, most people do idol worship.

In order to judge, you'll need to take different frame of reference and should see it from different perspective and then make up mind.

But then again, how is it relevant to this thread?

Nope right and wrong in terms of morality doesnt have a basis on a frame of reference

Most humans are pretty clear universally that on the most basic level right and wrong is clear and ingrained in our nature as a species

Ie whether your religious or irreligious most people would agree stealing, murder etc is wrong

Getting back to the point Those moral lines have clearly been crossed by israel as is now universally being accepted by the world (apart from a few for obvious reasons)

 

[Itachi]

See this is where I don't understand you (or any other atheist for that matter who claims they know moral values).

You argue that life doesn't run on moral values.

Where do you get your moral values from since you don't believe in ANY GOD per se.

Me? I know my religion tells me this is right and this wrong.

You? NO GOD, no Jehovah, No deity. Right?

So for you Zionists or Israel trampling on Palestinians should be okay based on any frame of reference.

And it is.

I follow you so far.

But then you take the high ground and say killing innocent people is wrong.

How?

I have mentioned this aspect before.

Any action whether right or wrong depends upon what frame of reference you take. That's why, people have different morality values since we all have a different set of standards.

For example, for some, Robin hood can be a robber but for some, he is an God sent angel. It depends what angle you take.

coming to my perspective, I also have a frame of reference. Only difference is, you take religion as frame of reference to shape moral values and I take my own experience of hit and trial methods and knowledge that I gather from them.

Sometimes our perspective will coincide while at other times it will differ hence. But we both have a set frame of reference in order to justify actions.

coming to the issue of zionism. my point is simple. It's an ideology. But no where it promotes violence. If there's an extremism, blame the people, not the ideology.

If I have missed anything, then someone could point towards a reference and I will consider to take that in to consideration.

 

[Itachi]

Nope right and wrong in terms of morality doesnt have a basis on a frame of reference

You come from a rigid perspective.

I already gave one example.

idol worship is sin in Islam. In Hinduism, it is promoted.

Why such difference of judgement exists in terms of sin if people do not have different frame of reference as you've mentioned.

 

[Zaz]

I have mentioned this aspect before.

Any action whether right or wrong depends upon what frame of reference you take. That's why, people have different morality values since we all have a different set of standards.

For example, for some, Robin hood can be a robber but for some, he is an God sent angel. It depends what angle you take.

coming to my perspective, I also have a frame of reference. Only difference is, you take religion as frame of reference to shape moral values and I take my own experience of hit and trial methods and knowledge that I gather from them.

Sometimes our perspective will coincide while at other times it will differ hence. But we both have a set frame of reference in order to justify actions.

coming to the issue of zionism. my point is simple. It's an ideology. But no where it promotes violence. If there's an extremism, blame the people, not the ideology.

If I have missed anything, then someone could point towards a reference and I will consider to take that in to consideration.

Would you say the same with nazism then?

On a basic level nowhere does nazism promote hate or violence but its inextricable linked to it because like zionism its based on the concept of superiority and at the expense of the other fellow human

Should we blame the people that followed nazism that committed all those crimes of humanity rather than the ideology itself?

 

[Itachi]

Would you say the same with nazism then?

On a basic level nowhere does nazism promote hate or violence but its inextricable linked to it because like zionism its based on the concept of superiority and at the expense of the other fellow human

Should we blame the people that followed nazism that committed all those crimes of humanity rather than the ideology itself?

Show me where and how zionism as an ideology promotes superiority.

 

[Civil]

correct or incorrect of an entity depends upon what frame of reference you take.

For example, if you take newtonian physics, time is not a dimension but if we are talking about theory of relativity, time is a dimension.

coming to the context, in any clash, there will be more than one party which could belong to same community or different community on case to case basis. if I go by your definition, then every conflict results in to ethnic cleansing. Every conflict is a genocide, massacre resulting in to ethnic cleansing wherever death occurs.

But it doesn't taken as in reality.

In mathematics, if we assume something but in the end reach a wrong conclusion, it means our initial assumption was wrong in the first place.

I did the same in your case. I took your statement and weigh it in different cases but it didn't fit in case of most conflicts. So from pov of my frame reference, you are wrong.

I agree with your mathematics analogy, Infact I will apply it in my daily life more.

But I disagree with your application of it in this context. You implied initially that a conflict between two ethnic groups can't involve ethnic cleansing. I e current Israel Palestine issues. So you proposed it as an "either/or" type scenario and established historical conflicts as the frame of reference.

I simply provided two cases (there are many more) where a clash between ethno groups can also contain ethnic cleansing.

Hence to disprove it, you cannot simply say the definition doesn't apply to all conflicts, as that is not what anyone here was saying either. It is not an either/or. It can also be an "and"

Also I didn't provide the definition which I will do here. "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal or extermination of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous"

I feel regardless of frame of references or laws applied this definition of ethnic cleansing would hold true during the Palestine Israel conflict.

 

[Zaz]

Show me where and how zionism as an ideology promotes superiority.

Well early zionist infamous slogan was (even when palestine was chosen) "a land without a people for a people without a land"

The land without people sentence is crucial because it viewed the inhabitants of palestine as not worthy of discussion even though millions lived there

This was in line with European supremacy and colonialists view that didnt hold any regard for the inhabitants of a land

Theres many racist quotes by early zionist leaders including israel zangwill who considered the arabs as backwards

Palestine has but a small population of Arabs and fellahin and wandering, lawless, blackmailing Bedouin tribes."[16] "

This clearly shows the basis of zionism waa founded on white supremacy ideology that took hold and continues unashamedly today in israel

 

[Itachi]

Well early zionist infamous slogan was (even when palestine was chosen) "a land without a people for a people without a land"

The land without people sentence is crucial because it viewed the inhabitants of palestine as not worthy of discussion even though millions lived there

This was in line with European supremacy and colonialists view that didnt hold any regard for the inhabitants of a land

Theres many racist quotes by early zionist leaders including israel zangwill who considered the arabs as backwards

Palestine has but a small population of Arabs and fellahin and wandering, lawless, blackmailing Bedouin tribes."[16] "

This clearly shows the basis of zionism waa founded on white supremacy ideology that took hold and continues unashamedly today in israel

I think you are missing my point or not understanding it.

I am not talking about people here. I am talking about zionism, the ideology. Different leaders will speak differently.

Many Islamic scholars have given extreme statements. But does that mean Islam is violent religion?

When we talk about Islam, we are talking about ideology. We don't talk about what scholar states what.

similarly what I am asking is, how zionism as an ideology promotes violence on innocent people and superiority. (not what one or two early leaders stated).

 

[Itachi]

I agree with your mathematics analogy, Infact I will apply it in my daily life more.

But I disagree with your application of it in this context. You implied initially that a conflict between two ethnic groups can't involve ethnic cleansing. I e current Israel Palestine issues. So you proposed it as an "either/or" type scenario and established historical conflicts as the frame of reference.

I simply provided two cases (there are many more) where a clash between ethno groups can also contain ethnic cleansing.

Hence to disprove it, you cannot simply say the definition doesn't apply to all conflicts, as that is not what anyone here was saying either. It is not an either/or. It can also be an "and"

Also I didn't provide the definition which I will do here. "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal or extermination of ethnic, racial and/or religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous"

I feel regardless of frame of references or laws applied this definition of ethnic cleansing would hold true during the Palestine Israel conflict.

I agree. it can also be an "and" (not only either/or situation). But it will be here and there incidents (localized) in a bigger conflicts between two groups where some troops may act on their own also.

 

[Civil]

Well early zionist infamous slogan was (even when palestine was chosen) "a land without a people for a people without a land"

The land without people sentence is crucial because it viewed the inhabitants of palestine as not worthy of discussion even though millions lived there

This was in line with European supremacy and colonialists view that didnt hold any regard for the inhabitants of a land

Theres many racist quotes by early zionist leaders including israel zangwill who considered the arabs as backwards

Palestine has but a small population of Arabs and fellahin and wandering, lawless, blackmailing Bedouin tribes."[16] "

This clearly shows the basis of zionism waa founded on white supremacy ideology that took hold and continues unashamedly today in israel

Well summarize bro. To add to this I will also provide the following quotes from the founder of Zionism movement Theodore Herzl and a prominent early Zionist max nordeau.


“The Jewish state in Palestine, Theodor Herzl wrote, would be Europe’s bulwark against Asia. “We can be the vanguard of culture against barbarianism.”


“..Max Nordau believed the Jews would not lose their European culture in Palestine and adopt Asia’s inferior culture, just as the British had not become Indians in America, Hottentots in Africa, or Papuans in Australia. “We will endeavor to do in the Near East what the English did in India. It is our intention to come to Palestine as the representatives of culture and to take the moral borders of Europe to the Euphrates River.”

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Well summarize bro. To add to this I will also provide the following quotes from the founder of Zionism movement Theodore Herzl and a prominent early Zionist max nordeau.


“The Jewish state in Palestine, Theodor Herzl wrote, would be Europe’s bulwark against Asia. “We can be the vanguard of culture against barbarianism.”


“..Max Nordau believed the Jews would not lose their European culture in Palestine and adopt Asia’s inferior culture, just as the British had not become Indians in America, Hottentots in Africa, or Papuans in Australia. “We will endeavor to do in the Near East what the English did in India. It is our intention to come to Palestine as the representatives of culture and to take the moral borders of Europe to the Euphrates River.”

What a fabulous quote. I will now always think of this when I regard India's cultural debt to Britain.

 

[Zaz]

I think you are missing my point or not understanding it.

I am not talking about people here. I am talking about zionism, the ideology. Different leaders will speak differently.

Many Islamic scholars have given extreme statements. But does that mean Islam is violent religion?

When we talk about Islam, we are talking about ideology. We don't talk about what scholar states what.

similarly what I am asking is, how zionism as an ideology promotes violence on innocent people and superiority. (not what one or two early leaders stated).

I think your missing the point The ideology starts with a person or group If the person is corrupt so will be the ideology

Ideologies dont grow out of nowwhere Its existence takes root from someone

This is what the initial founders of the movement said the people who drew up the concept for the homeland

This isnt post israel 1948 or even 10-15 years before This goes back to late 1800 when the momement first started

The whole concept was based on we need a land for the jews and the already inhabitants of that land are not as worthy as us

 

[Zaz]

I think you are missing my point or not understanding it.

I am not talking about people here. I am talking about zionism, the ideology. Different leaders will speak differently.

Many Islamic scholars have given extreme statements. But does that mean Islam is violent religion?

When we talk about Islam, we are talking about ideology. We don't talk about what scholar states what.

similarly what I am asking is, how zionism as an ideology promotes violence on innocent people and superiority. (not what one or two early leaders stated).

Just like you cant separate hitler from nazism you cant separate its founders and what they said from zionism

The two are intwined Why is nazism banned in europe and the world?

It started off a political nationalistist movement but due the course its leaders and their policies took it came to be reviled and known and banned as a far right fascist party

 

[Itachi]

It started off a political nationalistist movement but due the course its leaders and their policies took it came to be reviled and known and banned as a far right fascist party

exactly what I wrote. The difference of what the ideology was and how it was executed in a different manner.

You also seem to be agree with it.

 

[Zaz]

exactly what I wrote. The difference of what the ideology was and how it was executed in a different manner.

You also seem to be agree with it.

Not quite Because you seem to think an ideology is the initial premise only, which it isnt. The ideology is the route you take to bring that idea to fruition

If that was the case nazism would never have been banned

Its like me saying i want to be rich Theres nothing wrong with being rich but if i take a route to carrying out fraud i would be linked as a fraudster and that would be my ideology to become rich by committing fraud

 

[Itachi]

Not quite Because you seem to think an ideology is the initial premise only, which it isnt. The ideology is the route you take to bring that idea to fruition

If that was the case nazism would never have been banned

Its like me saying i want to be rich Theres nothing wrong with being rich but if i take a route to carrying out fraud i would be linked as a fraudster and that would be my ideology to become rich by committing fraud

If ideology is not only initial premise, why your assumptions are based upon early leaders but not what said afterwards?

 

[ManFan]

Having been here on PP long enough, I can recognize the mindset and direction of certain posters.
[MENTION=90888]Itachi[/MENTION] has made up his mind and this pseudo-intellectual desire for an “open discourse” is just an excuse to validate his “rigid” beliefs.

 

[Itachi]

Having been here on PP long enough, I can recognize the mindset and direction of certain posters.

[MENTION=90888]Itachi[/MENTION] has made up his mind and this pseudo-intellectual desire for an “open discourse” is just an excuse to validate his “rigid” beliefs.

I would have agreed with you. but here I am asking only questions and seeking answers. I haven't given out any statement.

If you believe I have a rigid mindset, that's your opinion and thats OK. But let others continue the discussion and don't disrupt the flow by posting something which has nothing to do with the thread.

Zaz, bassim all these posters, I may disagree with them in the end but till now, I actually enjoyed reading their posts as I've learnt may things from their post. Special mention also goes to civil who has given many references which I've read for the first time.

So my request will be, either post something relevant or you can be a reader only and enjoy the forum.

 

[Zaz]

If ideology is not only initial premise, why your assumptions are based upon early leaders but not what said afterwards?

How do you mean What did they say afterwards?

 

[Itachi]

How do you mean What did they say afterwards?

All the quotes that you've mentioned and civil has mentioned, is only from early leaders (the articles you quoted from also puts an emphasis on the word "early").

Since, after the initial premise, no such quotes exist and also according to you, initial premise doesn't form an ideology.... why we should take early leaders opinion as incorporation of the zionism ideology which contradicts on the post (yours) that was followed.

 

[Civil]

All the quotes that you've mentioned and civil has mentioned, is only from early leaders (the articles you quoted from also puts an emphasis on the word "early").

Since, after the initial premise, no such quotes exist and also according to you, initial premise doesn't form an ideology.... why we should take early leaders opinion as incorporation of the zionism ideology which contradicts on the post (yours) that was followed.

Would it be fair to paraphrase your question as a statement like this?: Early Zionism initially promoted Jewish superiority over some other races but has since evolved into a ideology that does not.

Though there are many quotes from recent leaders of the ideology as well. I think it would be easy for one to reply "well they are extremists " etc. So it would be better to present it from the point of view of Zionism in practice in non extreme cases.

Two examples in current practice I can provide are:
1) The current laws in Israel passed by the current Zionist leaning government, which allows a person with Jewish ancestors even if they are non practicing, living anywhere in the world automatic citizenship to Israel instantly. in conjunction another law allows them to live in a particular neighbourhood in preference of an Arab or non jewish Israelis for "neighbourhood harmony". As an example someone from ukraine who has Jewish heritage say a dead Jewish grandmother, but has never set foot in Israel or practices Judaism can be granted automatic citizenship and a building permit to build a new home. Someone who is Arab, has Israeli citizenship , and family has lived in Israel for generations can be denied the same building permit based on codified law. As the nation state law states "the right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is UNIQUE to the Jewish people." This implies superiority


2) continued illegal settlement of west bank by "settlers" and the states intrinsic support in providing them subsidized services in those west bank settlements where they are on stolen land. They are not providing these same subsidized services to those they occupy on the same land. I.e a highway or water supply line or garbage collection service purposely will miss Palestinian towns.

Once again this is because Zionism has taught them they are superior to others. If they believed they were equal, then within Israel's robust democracy above issues would have solved themselves

 

[Zaz]

All the quotes that you've mentioned and civil has mentioned, is only from early leaders (the articles you quoted from also puts an emphasis on the word "early").

Since, after the initial premise, no such quotes exist and also according to you, initial premise doesn't form an ideology.... why we should take early leaders opinion as incorporation of the zionism ideology which contradicts on the post (yours) that was followed.

On the contrary The initial rhetoric was pretty mild compared to whats come after Theres plenty of quotes if you google from the 1940s onwards from zionist leaders calling for all sorts of discrimination and violence against non jews

These have been codified into israeli laws like civil said for eg Jews born and lived abroad have far more rights than a palestinian citizen born and bred in the same land

This sort of discrimination isnt hidden

 

[Jadz]

Pakistan doesn't discriminate based upon religion? you sure about that?

Because the constitution of Pakistan tells otherwise and IT IS state sanctioned discrimination since it's in the constituition itself.

Please quote or reference those portions of the Constitution of Pakistan that explicitly state discrimination against minorities is permitted and legal.

 

[Jadz]

Plenty of Jews hate Israel and Zionism. are they racists too?

Jews that condemn the military occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, expansion of 'settlements,' and support by the West of Israel are characterized, by extremist Zionists and their enablers, as the 'wrong kind of Jews.' Very rarely, if ever, are they provided with a platform on corporate media, they are viewed as enemies of Israel and collaborators with its adversaries.

For instance, there were calls for Alexei Sayle - a well-known Jewish comedian - to be banned by the BBC, because he expressed support for Palestinians and condemned their oppression by Israel. Many are described as 'Kapo' - those who were used as guards by the Nazis in their concentration camps - a derogatory term intended to discredit anti-Zionist Jews.

https://www.chortle.co.uk/news/2021/05/20/48473/bbc_should_ban_alexei_sayle

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1...153992&notif_t=watch_follower_video&ref=notif

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

a public call to the international community

We, Jewish Israelis, oppose the actions of the Israeli government and call upon the international community to immediately intervene in defence of the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, Jerusalem, the Galilee, the Negev, al-Lydd, Yafa, Ramleh, Haifa and throughout historic Palestine.

We believe that Zionism is an unethical principle of governance that inherently leads to a racist Apartheid regime that has been committing war crimes and denying basic human rights from Palestinians for over seven decades. Such crimes and violations include; the destruction of hundreds of towns and villages and depopulating them of 750,000 Palestinians in 1948, alongside the active prevention of return of refugees; the systematic expropriation of Palestinians’ lands and transferring them to Jewish ownership under the auspices of the State; the occupation of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights and the application of a colonizing military regime, ruling over millions of Palestinians; the gradual annexation of the West Bank by violently engineering demographics; the ongoing siege on the Gaza strip and persistent massacres in the Gazan ghetto by the Israeli Air Force; political persecution of Palestinians throughout Palestine and the ongoing incitement against the political leadership and society at large; All of these atrocities take place due to the impunity Israel receives from the international community and especially the United States.
In recent weeks, the Israeli government has up-scaled its attempts to seize Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem (especially in the Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood) and house Jewish settlers in them with the aim of completing the Judaization of the city that began in 1967. During the month of Ramadan, Israeli forces intensified their violent onslaught on the Al Aqsa Mosque compound while giving settlers the green light to vandalize and physically harm Palestinians in the West Bank, Jerusalem and throughout the ’48 territories.
Mobs of settlers are acting under the auspices, and in coordination with the Israeli police. Israeli media is taking part in the unhinged incitement against Arab citizens of Israel. As a result, the Jewish mobs receive impunity for their violence, while hundreds of Palestinian citizens of Israel are arrested for protecting their homes and communities.
As we write this statement, Israel is committing yet another massacre in the Gaza ghetto. During the past week, Israel has declined third-party offers to negotiate a cease-fire agreement with Hamas officials, and has continued to bomb neighbourhoods in Gaza. The inhumane siege on approximately two million people continues.
As individuals who belong to the the side of the oppressor, and that have tried for years to shift public opinion in Israel in order to change the foundations of the current regime, we have long come to the conclusion that it is impossible to change the Jewish supremacist regime without external intervention.
We call upon the international community to; adopt the demands of the Palestinian Boycott, Divestement and Sanctions movement; to work towards the actualization of the Palestinian Right of Return and to bring about historic justice; to reach a just and democratic solution for all, based on the decolonization of the region and founding a state of all its citizens.

https://vimeo.com/552999865

 

[Itachi]

Please quote or reference those portions of the Constitution of Pakistan that explicitly state discrimination against minorities is permitted and legal.

1. PART III Chapter 1 Article 41 clause 2.

2. PART III Chapter 3 Article 91 clause 3.

above shows state discrimination on basis of religion.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Ariel Bernstein

Ariel Bernstein, an ex-soldier exposing Israeli 'Defense' Force's lies. He also talks about the inhumane missions he and his company were told to do in 2014.

 

[Jadz]

1. PART III Chapter 1 Article 41 clause 2.

2. PART III Chapter 3 Article 91 clause 3.

above shows state discrimination on basis of religion.

1. (3) After the election of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker, the National Assembly shall, to the exclusion of any other business, proceed to elect without debate one of its Muslim members to be the Prime Minister.

2. (2) A person shall not be qualified for election as President unless he is a Muslim of not less than forty-five years of age and is qualified to be elected as member of the National Assembly.

Where, in the two clauses you referenced and I quoted, does it state that discrimination against minorities - based upon religion or anything pertaining to religious ideology - is both permitted and legal?

 

[PakLFC]

Jews that condemn the military occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, expansion of 'settlements,' and support by the West of Israel are characterized, by extremist Zionists and their enablers, as the 'wrong kind of Jews.' Very rarely, if ever, are they provided with a platform on corporate media, they are viewed as enemies of Israel and collaborators with its adversaries.

For instance, there were calls for Alexei Sayle - a well-known Jewish comedian - to be banned by the BBC, because he expressed support for Palestinians and condemned their oppression by Israel. Many are described as 'Kapo' - those who were used as guards by the Nazis in their concentration camps - a derogatory term intended to discredit anti-Zionist Jews.

https://www.chortle.co.uk/news/2021/05/20/48473/bbc_should_ban_alexei_sayle

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1...986153992¬if_t=watch_follower_video&ref=notif

Yes they are considered to be not Jewish enough. Mind you, there are some Muslim's who support Israel too.

 

[Itachi]

1. (3) After the election of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker, the National Assembly shall, to the exclusion of any other business, proceed to elect without debate one of its Muslim members to be the Prime Minister.

2. (2) A person shall not be qualified for election as President unless he is a Muslim of not less than forty-five years of age and is qualified to be elected as member of the National Assembly.

Where, in the two clauses you referenced and I quoted, does it state that discrimination against minorities - based upon religion or anything pertaining to religious ideology - is both permitted and legal?

If those quotes doesn't represent state sanctioned discrimination, then in your opinion, Since only Muslims are allowed in those aspects vide constitution, what it means to you?

 

[Itachi]

[MENTION=30006]Jadz[/MENTION] the permission for the discrimination is in the statement itself where it only allows majority.

When you put a filter to incoming traffic, you don't need to set exclusion rules. This is called whitelisting.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Young American Jews inside USA and Israel are openly talking against Zionist violence against Palestine:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...ionment-with-israel-to-capitol-hill-1.9847059

----

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Haaretz israeli daily newspaper prints on its front page the photos of 67 children who were killed in Gaza, with the title: “this is the price of the war”. <a href="https://t.co/ek2jFWExCI">pic.twitter.com/ek2jFWExCI</a></p>— Dana Naomy Mills (@DanaNaomyMills) <a href="https://twitter.com/DanaNaomyMills/status/1397782408020234242?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 27, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

----

Many major and local news outlets all around the world are starting to push against Zionism.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Russell Brand & Dr. Gabor Maté

Many of you wanted clarity on the subject of Palestine and the current conflict. This, from Holocaust survivor Dr. Gabor Maté (on my podcast Under The Skin) is the most beautiful and powerful testimony on this subject I’ve ever heard. From someone with deep connections to the history of this situation.

 

[Civil]

Thank you for sharing these videos!

Isn't it amazing that intellectual guys like Maté and Noam Chomsky all admit that they had dreams in their youth of the homeland for Jews. Once they saw the reality and what it entails their conscience took over.

People on the outside that still support what Israel is doing need to listen to these type of guys. They aren't doing it out of self hate or for money. In many cases these people are religious Jews, they are risking everything by going opposite on this position.

There is no money in the media industry for anti Israel viewpoints, the only market for it are poor countries that won't spend money on this. It's not like the 'islamophobe industry' that generates weapon sales and Carnegie institute security analyst conference fees for war hawks.

It's just the plain truth, this is apartheid and since the Nakba onwards this has all been a horrific crime.

 

[Technics 1210]

Western celebrities and politicans will not speak up against Isreal in fear of ruining their careers; but have all the time in the world for Metoo/BLM etc.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Western celebrities and politicans will not speak up against Isreal in fear of ruining their careers; but have all the time in the world for Metoo/BLM etc.

Indian farmers lol. Muslims are so bad at successful lobbying it's shameful

 

[irfan]

Another great perspective from an anti-zionist Jewish Israeli

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">To be clear, what has incensed the former leader of the <a href="https://twitter.com/ADL?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@ADL</a> is that the <a href="https://twitter.com/nytimes?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@nytimes</a>, after decades of trivializing Palestinian death, has humanized our children by showing their faces & printing their names. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Gaza?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Gaza</a> <a href="https://t.co/TCNAj8GY1J">https://t.co/TCNAj8GY1J</a> <a href="https://t.co/Vehj9wTjZL">pic.twitter.com/Vehj9wTjZL</a></p>— Huwaida Arraf (@huwaidaarraf) <a href="https://twitter.com/huwaidaarraf/status/1398375676688879616?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Too little too late. But better than nothing.

Zionists are going hard against Jews who are raising voices against Israel. A very peculiar and historic event is going on right now.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

[MENTION=30006]Jadz[/MENTION] the permission for the discrimination is in the statement itself where it only allows majority.

When you put a filter to incoming traffic, you don't need to set exclusion rules. This is called whitelisting.

What is whitelisting?