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[VIDEOS] Problems with Hawkeye ball-tracking?

Hawkeye might not be 100 percent correct but neither the umpires can be 100 percent sure about the trajectory of ball and seam and swings it has when looked through the naked eye. Technology is there is to help the umpire and it will get better day by day. Need to trust the process.
 
You or I may want whatever but we are not the authority. The boards, the ICC and the players have access to the data and they are the decision makers.

HE gives its technology to the boards not the public.
you can do better. the fans don't need to know reeks of authoriianism

They don't have to give the technology to the public. but, the public are major consumer of the technology.

After 15 years and the mount of controversy surrounding it even now, it will be major win for HE to publish their test methodology and the results.

How exactly did they arrive at the numbers they throw around?
 
Usually the authority before approving the Medicine goes through the data.

Such trials and their data is available publically.

But the patient is the end user here and have the right to know about the data.

Just like ICC and other boards and their players are the end user and have access to the data.
The methodology for clinical is widely agreed up on throughout the world and the system has earned it credibility by having checks and balances. I personally contribute to many clinical trials by designing and developing analytical tools, methods and protoicols

Fans are major stakeholders in the game and to declare they should just accept what ICC tells about crucial aspects of in game decisions is ridiculous at best.

As of now, HE = Homeopathy

Whats your stand on homeopathy?
 
Merely echoing wikipedia "accuracy section" about Hawk eye is not going do anything. It has flaws. But i am not sure about other sports. But in cricket it is merely eliminate howlers. No technology can predict the path accurately with 100% certainty.
 
You or I may want whatever but we are not the authority. The boards, the ICC and the players have access to the data and they are the decision makers.

HE gives its technology to the boards not the public.
Their authority depends on Cricket Players and Watchers. They are not some military dictatorship.

If we had more analysable data on accuracy in various conditions, we could use it better. Let's say allow wider margins for Umpire's call in spinning or windy conditions. Trust it more on flat tracks etc.

Cricket is full of nerds who'd love to sink their teeth into the data. Look at the stats analysis section of Cricinfo.

If we had your way and trusted the process and system, we'd still be stuck with the same rain rule system that asked South Africa to score 22 runs in 1 ball in '92. Instead we let amateurs and experts experts keep tinkering with the data, suggesting iteratively better methods to reach where we now have a process in which rarely does any team question the calculations.

You saying it's unfair to give idiot cricket watchers and armchair experts the data to look at would be like me telling the Pakistanis you need to trust the army to decide what's good for you. Why do you the real election results?
 
Merely echoing wikipedia "accuracy section" about Hawk eye is not going do anything.
it wasn't from wiki. It was actual information published by HE from HE website a while back.
It has flaws. But i am not sure about other sports. But in cricket it is merely eliminate howlers. No technology can predict the path accurately with 100% certainty.
walking back your tennis claim + <word salad>
 
Let's say allow wider margins for Umpire's call in spinning or windy conditions. Trust it more on flat tracks etc

The type of pitch/amount of wind is going to have 0 impact on Hawkeye. For the tracking aspect each tracking point is identified independently and then after impact those factors will have no effect on the predicted trajectory.
 
The type of pitch/amount of wind is going to have 0 impact on Hawkeye. For the tracking aspect each tracking point is identified independently and then after impact those factors will have no effect on the predicted trajectory.
personal experience with the technical aspects of HE I take it? or parroting ?
 
elaborate a bit.

designer? developer? tester? operator?

Operator, there's not much more to elaborate on.

Going back to the original point, the system is taking a load of snapshots of the position of the ball from several cameras. Whether there's wind that's caused that ball to deviate in those individual snapshots doesn't affect the accuracy of the system, and post impact the system doesn't have to account for any wind anyway. The same with any spin or swing.
 
Operator, there's not much more to elaborate on.

Going back to the original point, the system is taking a load of snapshots of the position of the ball from several cameras. Whether there's wind that's caused that ball to deviate in those individual snapshots doesn't affect the accuracy of the system, and post impact the system doesn't have to account for any wind anyway. The same with any spin or swing.
so you operate the system and thats makes you expert on its accuracy of a prediction?

If you are that confident of its accuracy, you must have seen data to support it. have you?
 
so you operate the system and thats makes you expert on its accuracy of a prediction?

If you are that confident of its accuracy, you must have seen data to support it. have you?

Operated, it was a while back now.

I've never claimed to be an expert, just a lot more clued up on it than random people on the internet who lack a basic understanding of the principles that go into it and affect the prediction.

I was never an operator for one of the test sessions (of which there were multiple both internal and independent), however tracking in a live environment regularly has the potential to demonstrate the accuracy in some way. The ICC also carried out live comparative tests in some games where 2 different ball trackers were in use.
 
Operator, there's not much more to elaborate on.

Going back to the original point, the system is taking a load of snapshots of the position of the ball from several cameras. Whether there's wind that's caused that ball to deviate in those individual snapshots doesn't affect the accuracy of the system, and post impact the system doesn't have to account for any wind anyway. The same with any spin or swing.
SO did you intentionally swap the pitching accuracy and the predcition accuracy from post or a half assed job of reading posts you respond to?
 
SO did you intentionally swap the pitching accuracy and the predcition accuracy from post or a half assed job of reading posts you respond to?

I didn't swap anything, you quoted 2.6cm from a document where the only combination of those numbers was the 2.6mm accuracy for impact. If you want people to understand what you're talking about use the correct numbers from your source.
 
Operated, it was a while back now.

I've never claimed to be an expert, just a lot more clued up on it than random people on the internet who lack a basic understanding of the principles that go into it and affect the prediction.

I was never an operator for one of the test sessions (of which there were multiple both internal and independent), however tracking in a live environment regularly has the potential to demonstrate the accuracy in some way. The ICC also carried out live comparative tests in some games where 2 different ball trackers were in use.
so you were pushing a few on a computer... ok

its obvious that you no more informed about the testing methods than random people on the internet, otherwise you'd givena outline on how to test a prediction.

watching trace from two different HE systems which were consistent with each convince that the predicted path is accurate? interesting
 
Their authority depends on Cricket Players and Watchers. They are not some military dictatorship.

If we had more analysable data on accuracy in various conditions, we could use it better. Let's say allow wider margins for Umpire's call in spinning or windy conditions. Trust it more on flat tracks etc.

Cricket is full of nerds who'd love to sink their teeth into the data. Look at the stats analysis section of Cricinfo.

If we had your way and trusted the process and system, we'd still be stuck with the same rain rule system that asked South Africa to score 22 runs in 1 ball in '92. Instead we let amateurs and experts experts keep tinkering with the data, suggesting iteratively better methods to reach where we now have a process in which rarely does any team question the calculations.

You saying it's unfair to give idiot cricket watchers and armchair experts the data to look at would be like me telling the Pakistanis you need to trust the army to decide what's good for you. Why do you the real election results?

Lol. Let me tell you something. MCC has a copyright over cricket laws and ICC derives its power from its member boards. Come down from your high horse that some random fans are the source of authority for the ICC.


I am saying HE isn't obligated to give any random person their data. They are not the client or the end user.

What XYZ fan wants from a pvt company and wants to do with the data of a pvt company isn't a matter for the ICC or HE.

There is no army here or any nation. Don't bring in comparisons.
 
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I didn't swap anything, you quoted 2.6cm from a document where the only combination of those numbers was the 2.6mm accuracy for impact. If you want people to understand what you're talking about use the correct numbers from your source.
here is what I wrote in post #142

>>>HE: I can predict path of the ball to +/- 2.5cm
Me: Prove it<<

from HE document

The HawkEye Accuracy document states;
Hawk-Eye is able to deliver a system which meets the following
performance criteria:
• Pitching point accuracy under 5mm (in MCC tests it was shown to be
2.6mm)
• Interception point accuracy under 5mm (in MCC tests it was shown to
be
2.6mm)
• Prediction of where the ball passes the stumps:
o In all “normal” LBW instances under 15mm and average error of 5mm
o In “extreme” LBW instances under 25mm
An “extreme” LBW is one where there is less than 40cm of travel
between pitching
point and interception point and the batsman is hit over 2 meters from
the stumps.
The current protocol has a 45mm umpire call “margin”.


nowhere did I quote 2.6cm accuracy.
 
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you can do better. the fans don't need to know reeks of authoriianism

They don't have to give the technology to the public. but, the public are major consumer of the technology.

After 15 years and the mount of controversy surrounding it even now, it will be major win for HE to publish their test methodology and the results.

How exactly did they arrive at the numbers they throw around?

ICC is the client. HE gave their data to them. Data was confirmed by the tests at MIT.

Boards and players agreed to go aheas with HE.

Neither HE nor ICC needs to give data to random people.

So, unless you have any proof that HE is unreliable, all you are posting is conjecture.
 
Completely independent systems.
and?

If both systems use the same code base and both system use equivalent camera's they should be consistent with each other.

I'm sure you that I dont to tell you the difference between accuracy of the prediction and consitency between two systems
 
and?

If both systems use the same code base and both system use equivalent camera's they should be consistent with each other.

I'm sure you that I dont to tell you the difference between accuracy of the prediction and consitency between two systems

As I said they were doing comparative tests between 2 completely different systems. Different cameras, different code, different operators.
 
ICC is the client. HE gave their data to them. Data was confirmed by the tests at MIT.

Boards and players agreed to go aheas with HE.

Neither HE nor ICC needs to give data to random people.

So, unless you have any proof that HE is unreliable, all you are posting is conjecture.
lets paraphrase: i have no clue how it was tested but MIT impresses me.

good for you.
 
As I said they were doing comparative tests between 2 completely different systems. Different cameras, different code, different operators.
different code base and algorithm? how would you know that? wre you comparing virtual eye vs HE. If not, your were testing HE versions. not different code base.
 
it wasn't from wiki. It was actual information published by HE from HE website a while back.

walking back your tennis claim + <word salad>
I am not here to win arguments. I am just saying you are making mountain out of a molehill. Everyone knows it has flaw. Unless.umpire and DRS are massively out of step I don't see any issue. Mostly marginal calls get overturned. I am not sure what is the point of knowing data analysis. You are a fan. Not a buyer
 
Hawkeye is pretty good isn’t it. It’s got much better since the early days, where it would sometimes come up with some fairly wild trajectories, particularly on pitches with bounce - where it would neglect to factor in that not every ball on a bouncy pitch will bounce to the same height even if it pitches in the same area.

Pleasingly, I would say that I agree with Hawkeye’s conclusion 95+% of the time now, so 19 out of every 20 decisions as a minimum. And as for that 5%, if that’s the margin of error then that is acceptable imo, but the 5% might still be correct, just occasionally my naked eye / subjective view sees it a little bit differently.

But much as the umpire’s decision used to be the final word and this was the law & spirit, in international cricket nowadays if a decision is reviewed, then a combination of the umpire and the technology has the final word, and that’s fine.

I would much rather “almost” every final decision be correct (with a few rare errors) and umpires still be highly respected, than have the sort of disgraceful behaviour we see from players towards referees in football where almost every decision seems to get contested on the pitch and encourages a mob mentality. In football if a player touches a ref they get a fine and localised suspension, whereas any cricketer who assaulted an umpire would get a global lifetime ban at all levels of the game. Rightly so.

Tech has made cricket miles better. Hawkeye + Snicko + replays + TV umpire + on field umpires, whilst not yet an infallible joint robot/human system is very, very solid.
 
Just show it is hitting or show it missing, and stick with it. The umpire is also guessing what will happen. Trust the technology available. If it shows hitting, great, give it out. If not, give it not out. No need to give so much power to the umpire
 
today LBW of saud shakeel is also seems a bit fishy to me because in real time ball was moving a bit but at DRS it went straight after pitching, this technology is of no use better to go stick humans.
 
Shadab's complaint seems to be they showed the wrong ball. THat is not exactly a problem with Hawk eye is it?
 
Shadab's complaint seems to be they showed the wrong ball. THat is not exactly a problem with Hawk eye is it?
they didnt show the wrong ball. There is a thread on it, it has the video in it. Watch the video and you will see the issue
 
I have been watching cricket since 2007 and i have never seen any issue with ball tracking technology. But ever since the 2023 world cup, there has been so many issues with Hawk Eye. I had some doubts that it is my brain, but now the agha salman was a very obvious howler in the hawk eye.

The system messed up during the last 6 months. Wonder what update took place that has ruined the machine
 
how did you arrive at that conclusion?

All you are shown is an eye pleasing graphic.

I am unclear as to what your stance is.

If Hawkeye is as unreliable as you claim, do we go back to umpires?

Hawkeye is 50-50 and the company doesnt want to share its report with you.

Now I hope you will give everyone a clear answer about what your solution is instead of "word salad about Hawkeye requiring testing and proof".
 
I am unclear as to what your stance is.

If Hawkeye is as unreliable as you claim, do we go back to umpires?

Hawkeye is 50-50 and the company doesnt want to share its report with you.

Now I hope you will give everyone a clear answer about what your solution is instead of "word salad about Hawkeye requiring testing and proof".

Hawk-eye is not just tracking leg before. It also checks for whether it pitches inline or not, impacts inline or not. Leg before decisions are going to be marginal. it is only going to help eliminating howlers. Ball trajectory depends on so many variables. There is something called natural variation something even bowler won't know. It is impossible to simulate natural variation of the pitch as sometimes ball will go the opposite of intended way. There will be margin of error. This is something we have to live with. We are never going to have a perfect DRS ever. Nearly impossible.
 
I am unclear as to what your stance is.
my stance is that if you are going to introduce a system with the claim that you are going to improve things, you have to demonstrate that improvement. Before you spend millions of dollars on it.
If Hawkeye is as unreliable as you claim, do we go back to umpires?
a) we as fans have no information on reliability of HE prediction. claims by HE. no information.
b) Yes. Put in a proper training program for umpires. Stop using umpires whose eyeballs are beyond sell by date.
c) the same training programs for LBW's can also be use to test how well HE can predict
Hawkeye is 50-50 and the company doesnt want to share its report with you.
Thats not what is claimed. if HE is at best 50-50 why spend millions of dollars on it?
Now I hope you will give everyone a clear answer about what your solution is instead of "word salad about Hawkeye requiring testing and proof".
Solution is fairly straightforward and was proposed a decade ago

1) public demonstrate HE capability. ICC through fans support funds HE and uses it in a very public way.

The proposed test is fairly straight forward. Capture HD footage to to plot delivery trajectory under various conditions and bowlers. truncate the footage 2-3 meters from stumps and have HE predict the path. If it matches the the actual path within the limits claimed by HE, its all good.

2) put umpires though the same test: show them the truncated footage and have them make a call on location at stumps

This way everyone knows 1) how good HE is 2) which umpires are good

and you have a great training tool for umpires
 
Hawk-eye is not just tracking leg before. It also checks for whether it pitches inline or not, impacts inline or not. Leg before decisions are going to be marginal. it is only going to help eliminating howlers. Ball trajectory depends on so many variables. There is something called natural variation something even bowler won't know. It is impossible to simulate natural variation of the pitch as sometimes ball will go the opposite of intended way. There will be margin of error. This is something we have to live with. We are never going to have a perfect DRS ever. Nearly impossible.
This has been discussed to death. HD footage with pitch over lay will do the job of pitch location and impact location adequately and there are many organization which can provide you this at a fraction of the cost charged by HE. It is so widely deployed in MLB and I doubt they are paying $100K/day.

HE is waste of money of if its predictive element is not reliable.
 
This has been discussed to death. HD footage with pitch over lay will do the job of pitch location and impact location adequately and there are many organization which can provide you this at a fraction of the cost charged by HE. It is so widely deployed in MLB and I doubt they are paying $100K/day.

HE is waste of money of if its predictive element is not reliable.

Which organization? Nobody stopped them from approaching ICC. Did they?
 
Which organization? Nobody stopped them from approaching ICC. Did they?
Plotting trajectories from HD footage is commoditized this point. Used in every MLB game. used in every golf tournament. Camera's which will give you adequate quality video has also coming down in costs.

W/O the predictive element HE, there is not a lot value to ICC.

I'd love to know what ICC will pay for HE w/o predictive element and if that will be acceptable to HE.
 
This has been discussed to death. HD footage with pitch over lay will do the job of pitch location and impact location adequately and there are many organization which can provide you this at a fraction of the cost charged by HE. It is so widely deployed in MLB and I doubt they are paying $100K/day.

HE is waste of money of if its predictive element is not reliable.

MLB switched to using Hawkeye recently, specifically citing it's accuracy compared to their previous solutions.
 
Plotting trajectories from HD footage is commoditized this point. Used in every MLB game. used in every golf tournament. Camera's which will give you adequate quality video has also coming down in costs.

W/O the predictive element HE, there is not a lot value to ICC.

I'd love to know what ICC will pay for HE w/o predictive element and if that will be acceptable to HE.

I am not sure there is any other sports where you have ball can go in unpredictable direction depending on the bowler, conditions (atmospheric, surface) and so many variables. Show me a technology that predicts with any degree of accuracy after pitching.
 
The error in the prediction comes from the error in the measurement. As I've said before extending in a straight line and applying gravity isn't the hard bit.
should be easy enough to demonstrate. In fact it would make one hell of PR win for HE.

since you are an operator, how did you become confident in it prediction? Someone telling you? your technical background? demonstration of actual footage vs prediction?
 
I am not sure there is any other sports where you have ball can go in unpredictable direction depending on the bowler, conditions (atmospheric, surface) and so many variables. Show me a technology that predicts with any degree of accuracy after pitching.
we are in agreement here.

Measurement and plotting of what happened has been done plenty. your example of tennis

HE and Virtualeye are the first one to attempt the predictive element. that is the reason for my doubts and amplified by the fact 15 years of very public use later not a lot of "proof" of the claimed accuracy
 
we are in agreement here.

Measurement and plotting of what happened has been done plenty. your example of tennis

HE and Virtualeye are the first one to attempt the predictive element. that is the reason for my doubts and amplified by the fact 15 years of very public use later not a lot of "proof" of the claimed accuracy
That is why they have umpires too to decide in real time who can make the assessment of things what the bowler tries to do. Leg before is always going to be marginal something we have to live with. BUt we can certainly eliminate things like impact point. There is a 90s video of Inzamam getting absolutely plumb infront of the bowling of Mcgrath twice in one over. Both times not given. There is no way hawkeye is going to say ball will be missing the stumps.Many decision were given out when the impact was well outside the off stump/leg stump in the past. Those kind of biased calls can be eliminated. If we are looking for perfection we won't get it with any technology.
 
That is why they have umpires too to decide in real time who can make the assessment of things what the bowler tries to do. Leg before is always going to be marginal something we have to live with. BUt we can certainly eliminate things like impact point. There is a 90s video of Inzamam getting absolutely plumb infront of the bowling of Mcgrath twice in one over. Both times not given. There is no way hawkeye is going to say ball will be missing the stumps.Many decision were given out when the impact was well outside the off stump/leg stump in the past. Those kind of biased calls can be eliminated. If we are looking for perfection we won't get it with any technology.
not seeking perfection. just a transparent demonstration of the capability.
 
not seeking perfection. just a transparent demonstration of the capability.
Even if they show i won't say it is accurate. It simply cannot predict certain things. That is why i don't care much for their studies. I will certainly worry about the accuracy when the ball is heading towards leg side and ball tracking shows outside the off stump. Yes there are some accuracy issues when you look at visually in slow motion. Ironically we trust the path of Hawkeye until it hits pad. But after hitting we don't trust it. We use their technology to argue against their technology.
 
my stance is that if you are going to introduce a system with the claim that you are going to improve things, you have to demonstrate that improvement. Before you spend millions of dollars on it.

a) we as fans have no information on reliability of HE prediction. claims by HE. no information.
b) Yes. Put in a proper training program for umpires. Stop using umpires whose eyeballs are beyond sell by date.
c) the same training programs for LBW's can also be use to test how well HE can predict

Thats not what is claimed. if HE is at best 50-50 why spend millions of dollars on it?

Solution is fairly straightforward and was proposed a decade ago

1) public demonstrate HE capability. ICC through fans support funds HE and uses it in a very public way.

The proposed test is fairly straight forward. Capture HD footage to to plot delivery trajectory under various conditions and bowlers. truncate the footage 2-3 meters from stumps and have HE predict the path. If it matches the the actual path within the limits claimed by HE, its all good.

2) put umpires though the same test: show them the truncated footage and have them make a call on location at stumps

This way everyone knows 1) how good HE is 2) which umpires are good

and you have a great training tool for umpires

1. Technology is always better than naked eye.
You are basically implying technology is worse than naked eye. However, that doesnt make sense as technology has always been able to make things easier

2. Hawkeye is able to get rid of howlers like inside edge and "ball pitched outside leg".

3. Marginal decisions remain at mercy of umpire and thats why umpires call remains. If your assumption is umpires predict trajectory of the ball better, then you should actually have no issue of Hawkeye because unless greater than 50 percent of ball is hitting or missing the stump as per Hawkeye, we are actually siding with what the umpire says on that particular call.


4. If your issue is ball is doing something else after pitching in real life, and doing something else on Hawkeye, then most of the umpiring decisions should be opposite of what Hawkeye says. But we see in 90 percent of the time what the umpire says Hawkeye just confirms it. So why isnt there an open discrepancy if Hawkeye is so poor at predicting trajectory of ball.

5. Even if we dont have proof, proper reasoning and deductive analysis leads us to the conclusion that despite its quacks, Hawkeye has definitely improved the overall standard of umpiring decisions.
my stance is that if you are going to introduce a system with the claim that you are going to improve things, you have to demonstrate that improvement. Before you spend millions of dollars on it.

a) we as fans have no information on reliability of HE prediction. claims by HE. no information.
b) Yes. Put in a proper training program for umpires. Stop using umpires whose eyeballs are beyond sell by date.
c) the same training programs for LBW's can also be use to test how well HE can predict

Thats not what is claimed. if HE is at best 50-50 why spend millions of dollars on it?

Solution is fairly straightforward and was proposed a decade ago

1) public demonstrate HE capability. ICC through fans support funds HE and uses it in a very public way.

The proposed test is fairly straight forward. Capture HD footage to to plot delivery trajectory under various conditions and bowlers. truncate the footage 2-3 meters from stumps and have HE predict the path. If it matches the the actual path within the limits claimed by HE, its all good.

2) put umpires though the same test: show them the truncated footage and have them make a call on location at stumps

This way everyone knows 1) how good HE is 2) which umpires are good

and you have a great training tool for umpires
. Technology is always better than naked eye.
You are basically implying technology is worse than naked eye. However, that doesnt make sense as laws of optics prove that naked eye is limited with regards to "perception of visual objects".

2. Hawkeye is able to get rid of howlers like inside edge and "ball pitched outside leg".

3. Marginal decisions remain at mercy of umpire and thats why umpires call remains. If your assumption is umpires predict trajectory of the ball better, then you should actually have no issue of Hawkeye because unless greater than 50 percent of ball is hitting or missing the stump as per Hawkeye, we are actually siding with what the umpire says on that particular call.


4. If your issue is ball is doing something else after pitching in real life, and doing something else on Hawkeye, then most of the umpiring decisions should be opposite of what Hawkeye says. But we see in 90 percent of the time what the umpire says Hawkeye just confirms it. So why isnt there an open discrepancy if Hawkeye is so poor at predicting trajectory of ball.

5. Even if we dont have proof, proper reasoning and deductive analysis leads us to the conclusion that despite its quacks, Hawkeye has definitely improved the overall standard of umpiring decisions.

So my thinking is because a few of Hawkeye decisions, dont make sense to you, you are basically questioning the value and accuracy of Hawkeye when in reality the real question you shoule be asking, using deductive reasoning, has the Hawkeye made more right calls and made the game more fairer overall?

If the answer is yes, your theoretical conjecture of Hawkeye not being accurate is just a personal bias and not based on any scientific reasoning.

Thanks!
 
point by point rebuttal will takes this in too many directions.

When a quantitive claim is made, it needs to supported by quantitative evidence.

For HE's predictive element, that evidence hasn't been made public. not even the methodology

Even HE operator on this board can't tell describe the methodology

doesn't work for me. If it works for you, great.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.
 
becos patient has confidence in the procedures put in place to tests the drug properly?


in that case can you explain why this list is sooo long ?



Just for the sake of perspective : There is no way of knowing how many people lost their lives due to those shoddy medications, let alone the number of families that had to endure the pain/suffering due to the supposedly "confidence in the procedures".

BTW this is just the tip of the iceberg. You probably have no idea. but time will tell.

So you still want to complain about Hawk Eye ?
 
point by point rebuttal will takes this in too many directions.

When a quantitive claim is made, it needs to supported by quantitative evidence.

For HE's predictive element, that evidence hasn't been made public. not even the methodology

Even HE operator on this board can't tell describe the methodology

doesn't work for me. If it works for you, great.

We are going to have to agree to disagree.

I agree.

A quantitative claim should be supported by quantitative evidence.

But where you fall short I guess is that if a quantitative claim is limited by lack of evidence, deductive logic and inference should be able to at least also critique the quantitative claim as "not good enough" or "open to discussion".

However, all deductive reasoning basically shows that Hawkeye might have some element of quirkiness and might get a few outliers long but in the long run it basically gets most calls in the same direction as umpires decision.

If that evidence isnt good enough for you, nothing is going to ever good enough.

Science and mathematics is all evidence plus deductive logic.

Whether you are deliberately ignoring one in search of the other I dont know but I will leave this conversation as is.

Good day to you also !
 
Ironically we trust the path of Hawkeye until it hits pad.
becos thats measurement of what happened and the science and technology behind it is well established
But after hitting we don't trust it. We use their technology to argue against their technology.
Simple reason really: Measurement is not unique to HE. Predictive element is.

One can take the measurement aspect from a completely different vendor and feed to to HE predictive section.
 
in that case can you explain why this list is sooo long ?

Becos there are checks and balances. Medicines are authorized on balance. If a company lies or has unethical practices they face consequences
Just for the sake of perspective : There is no way of knowing how many people lost their lives due to those shoddy medications, let alone the number of families that had to endure the pain/suffering due to the supposedly "confidence in the procedures".

BTW this is just the tip of the iceberg. You probably have no idea. but time will tell.
Yes. Thats i how field of medicine works. unless you can use humans for medical testing by force, there is a risk medicine that is good enough me might not work for my brother. If statistically it causes harm than good, it should not introduced or withdrawn.

Caveat is that you might not get the statistics until wider use.

So you still want to complain about Hawk Eye ?
yup. becos what I'm pushing for should have been part of the validation.

Scenarios
a) it was done

a1) it matches their claim: need a really good explanation on why it hasn't been made public

a2) It doesn't match their claim: then it is fraud

b) it was not done: they they are selling snake oil
 
I agree.

A quantitative claim should be supported by quantitative evidence.

But where you fall short I guess is that if a quantitative claim is limited by lack of evidence, deductive logic and inference should be able to at least also critique the quantitative claim as "not good enough" or "open to discussion".
what I'm pushing for is due diligence.

Using the same deductive logic, inference you advocated I see three possible scenarios

Myself and many others have proposed a simple way to test HE prediction whic will use teh same exact equipment etc etc

Possible scenario

a) it was done

a1) it matches their claim: need a really good explanation on why it hasn't been made public

a2) It doesn't match their claim: then it is fraud

b) it was not done: they they are selling snake oil

good conversation. Dr. Bassim.
 
Even if they show i won't say it is accurate. It simply cannot predict certain things. That is why i don't care much for their studies. I will certainly worry about the accuracy when the ball is heading towards leg side and ball tracking shows outside the off stump. Yes there are some accuracy issues when you look at visually in slow motion. Ironically we trust the path of Hawkeye until it hits pad. But after hitting we don't trust it. We use their technology to argue against their technology.

You can't predict things with 100 per cent accuracy. There is room for error.

Hence umpire's call.
 
You can't predict things with 100 per cent accuracy. There is room for error.

Hence umpire's call.
why do guys keep knocking a strawman? who asked for 100% accuracy? all that is being is wjat was the test that was done, if any.
 
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Becos there are checks and balances. Medicines are authorized on balance. If a company lies or has unethical practices they face consequences

Yes. Thats i how field of medicine works. unless you can use humans for medical testing by force, there is a risk medicine that is good enough me might not work for my brother. If statistically it causes harm than good, it should not introduced or withdrawn.

Caveat is that you might not get the statistics until wider use.


yup. becos what I'm pushing for should have been part of the validation.

Scenarios
a) it was done

a1) it matches their claim: need a really good explanation on why it hasn't been made public

a2) It doesn't match their claim: then it is fraud

b) it was not done: they they are selling snake oil

So you are ok risking your life to a supposedly "approved" medication but you are up in arms about HE which unlike big pharma cannot hide anything as its work is broadcast live ball-by-ball and it can be reasonably cross checked via multiple independent camera angles and other aiding technology not in HE control ?

Let me know if you still want to continue this discussion.
 
So you are ok risking your life to a supposedly "approved" medication
yes, I trust the system in place and as CJ mentioned, ask questions about possible side effects and decide if they are worth it.

but you are up in arms about HE which unlike big pharma cannot hide anything as its work is broadcast live ball-by-ball and it can be reasonably cross checked via multiple independent camera angles and other aiding technology not in HE control ?
there is testing syte in place for medicines and while there is risk that it might not be followed and somo emight cricumvent it, I take confidence in the number of check in place.

wht test has been done for HE? what do you know about it? you are simply drinking the kool aid becos you have issue with some crooked umpires
Let me know if you still want to continue this discussion.
hell yes. I do. If this all you got, we can keep gong. would love take the gloves off if the mods let me.

I really think your line of argument exposes your intellect or the lack there off.
 
Please do not derail the thread guys. Stay on topic. No more irrelevant talk now.
 
Some poor decisions so far in the India-England test match. Specifically that root LBW was not given. What is going on with this tech?

not a good look is it.

wonder where all the cheerleaders have gone. between the root and rossouw desicsion, it really cuts the the legs of the HE apologetics. Atleast the ones with integrity anyway
 
why do guys keep knocking a strawman? who asked for 100% accuracy? all that is being is wjat was the test that was done, if any.

And why should it be told to every random guy on the street?

Its told to the client who is paying for the service.
 
And why should it be told to every random guy on the street?

Its told to the client who is paying for the service.
sorry bro. you jumped the shark.

We as fans are one of the consumers. this whole very random guy on the street shtick while not being able to talk about the issue at hand intelligently makes look weak .

you got nothing worthwhile to say on the subject while crap-eye is laying goose-eggs
 
I have never seen such worse accuracy of the Hawk Eye Technology as I have seen in this PSL.

It's appalling really. Is PSL Production using some cheap rip off technology to save money?
 
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