Vital importance of logically consistent thinking according to the Quran

Mughal · Mar 6, 2018

humzy · Mar 6, 2018

Mughal said:
What quran says about people who seek knowledge and those who do not and remain ignorant.

http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/10/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/31/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/32/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/111/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/118/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/129/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/151/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/170/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/216/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/219/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/269/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/7/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/64/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/79/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/154/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/164/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/190/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/191/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/4/82/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/4/174/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/5/2/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/5/83/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/50/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/116/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/138/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/176/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/179/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/199/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/203/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/8/22/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/8/24/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/8/65/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/9/122/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/36/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/39/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/57/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/58/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/64/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/92/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/100/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/12/2/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/12/55/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/3/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/4/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/11/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/16/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/19/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/43/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/14/15/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/16/78/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/16/125/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/17/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/17/36/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/51/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/68/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/19/72/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/19/73/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/20/114/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/7/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/30/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/53/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/54/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/55/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/3/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/5/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/45/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/46/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/54/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/23/68/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/24/61/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/24/44/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/8/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/30/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/33/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/39/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/44/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/49/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/52/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/63/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/72/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/73/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/74/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/15/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/16/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/40/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/55/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/64/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/28/78/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/28/80/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/29/20/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/29/46/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/29/49/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/30/8/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/30/22/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/31/19/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/31/20/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/31/21/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/34/6/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/34/46/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/35/28/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/37/157/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/38/27/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/38/29/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/9/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/18/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/21/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/23/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/27/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/28/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/40/5/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/40/67/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/40/82/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/41/3/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/41/34/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/41/53/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/45/13/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/47/24/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/48/26/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/49/4/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/49/6/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/50/37/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/52/34/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/52/35/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/53/23/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/55/2/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/57/25/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/58/11/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/59/14/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/65/12/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/67/10/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/81/19/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/81/23/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/96/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/96/4/

These are only a few verses from the quran as a sample to show importance of consistent logical thinking. People who do not learn sense to make proper sense of things are categorised as worse than animals.

Isn't it logical that as society evolves, so do morals. Therefore you cannot abide by laws set out 1500 years ago. Rather there should be an ability to adjust these based on current intellectual study and thought.

Mughal · Mar 7, 2018

humzy said:
Isn't it logical that as society evolves, so do morals. Therefore you cannot abide by laws set out 1500 years ago. Rather there should be an ability to adjust these based on current intellectual study and thought.

Dear humzy, God has given us guidelines for formation of constitution and legislation of laws.

Here is how things connect together. You have an over all purpose based ideology, you form a society or an organisation or set up a community. This is why you need a constitution and laws. However you form a society with a goal in mind which decides the context of why you need a society or constitution or laws. All this is done so that we move towards the goal for which we form a society. If we set up a society then we need to manage it in a way so that it helps us achieve the goal. This is why we set up political institutions in order to bring about a culture that helps us move towards out end goal. This is why we need all related systems, structure, procedures and practices because without that we cannot achieve our objective or end goal.

It is true that we will have to amend our constitution because as we achieve our objectives we need to bring in new ones to continue and likewise we will have bring in new laws that suit new objectives. However as we move forward the foundation upon which we stand ie the guidelines must remain the same always. The reason is we are human beings and we will remain human beings always. Our basic needs will not change with time ie we will always need food to eat and water to drink etc etc. This is why whatever will remain the same will require the same constitution clauses and and related laws. Whatever will change will need readjustments accordingly in constitution and laws. However there must remain harmony and equilibrium between all related things always or things will not work or fall apart.

The other point to realise is, laws are always based upon reasons or situations for which they are needed. So whenever same thing happens or same situation arises the same laws laws apply. For example, if we pass a law, anyone who murders an innocent person will be put to death then that will happen to the murderer always. However if no one murders anyone then this law will not apply but it will remain enforced waiting for the situation to take place.

When there were no aeroplanes and no airports we did not need related laws and the same could be said about new ways of travelling around. This topic is very complex and cannot be explained in short posts because it has too many aspects. Most people have no idea what is constitution and what is law and how they are related. Constitution is a document which contains aims and objective of an organisation for which people organise. This organisation needs people who are supposed to be responsible for carrying out its objectives. These people are called office bearers. Each office is limited by legislations about its personnel eg chairperson's responsibilities and duties and related powers are decided by clauses in constitution. It also contains penalties for failures of office bearers. Constitution decides jurisdiction or application zone for its laws. This is why a law cannot be applied out side its decided jurisdiction. Likewise there are many other aspects which is very difficult for me to cover in short posts. It involved too much writing for which I do not time.

regards and all the best.

Napa · Mar 7, 2018

Mughal said:
What quran says about people who seek knowledge and those who do not and remain ignorant.

http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/10/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/31/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/32/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/111/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/118/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/129/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/151/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/170/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/216/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/219/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/269/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/7/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/64/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/79/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/154/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/164/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/190/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/191/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/4/82/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/4/174/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/5/2/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/5/83/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/50/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/116/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/138/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/176/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/179/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/199/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/203/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/8/22/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/8/24/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/8/65/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/9/122/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/36/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/39/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/57/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/58/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/64/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/92/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/100/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/12/2/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/12/55/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/3/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/4/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/11/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/16/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/19/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/43/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/14/15/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/16/78/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/16/125/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/17/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/17/36/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/51/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/68/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/19/72/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/19/73/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/20/114/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/7/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/30/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/53/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/54/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/55/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/3/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/5/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/45/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/46/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/54/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/23/68/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/24/61/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/24/44/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/8/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/30/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/33/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/39/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/44/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/49/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/52/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/63/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/72/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/73/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/74/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/15/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/16/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/40/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/55/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/64/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/28/78/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/28/80/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/29/20/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/29/46/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/29/49/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/30/8/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/30/22/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/31/19/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/31/20/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/31/21/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/34/6/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/34/46/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/35/28/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/37/157/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/38/27/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/38/29/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/9/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/18/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/21/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/23/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/27/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/28/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/40/5/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/40/67/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/40/82/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/41/3/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/41/34/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/41/53/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/45/13/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/47/24/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/48/26/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/49/4/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/49/6/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/50/37/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/52/34/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/52/35/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/53/23/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/55/2/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/57/25/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/58/11/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/59/14/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/65/12/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/67/10/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/81/19/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/81/23/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/96/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/96/4/

These are only a few verses from the quran as a sample to show importance of consistent logical thinking. People who do not learn sense to make proper sense of things are categorised as worse than animals.

To believe in heaven and hell without any evidence and then also claim to be a logical thinker is paradoxical.

If you wish to be religious, you should acknowledge that your beliefs are based on faith rather than reason.

If you believe that you have found any logical reason to believe in heaven and hell, then you are deceived.

DW44 · Mar 7, 2018

Quran itself is inconsistent. If you read it with an open mind - i.e. without the assumption that it's literally the word of god and, therefore, perfect - you will disbelieve. Some of the liberties taken with logic are pretty serious (to kill one person is to kill all humanity... followed by ~35000 references to killing people including for some pretty stupid reasons).

humzy · Mar 7, 2018

Mughal said:
Dear humzy, God has given us guidelines for formation of constitution and legislation of laws.

Here is how things connect together. You have an over all purpose based ideology, you form a society or an organisation or set up a community. This is why you need a constitution and laws. However you form a society with a goal in mind which decides the context of why you need a society or constitution or laws. All this is done so that we move towards the goal for which we form a society. If we set up a society then we need to manage it in a way so that it helps us achieve the goal. This is why we set up political institutions in order to bring about a culture that helps us move towards out end goal. This is why we need all related systems, structure, procedures and practices because without that we cannot achieve our objective or end goal.

It is true that we will have to amend our constitution because as we achieve our objectives we need to bring in new ones to continue and likewise we will have bring in new laws that suit new objectives. However as we move forward the foundation upon which we stand ie the guidelines must remain the same always. The reason is we are human beings and we will remain human beings always. Our basic needs will not change with time ie we will always need food to eat and water to drink etc etc. This is why whatever will remain the same will require the same constitution clauses and and related laws. Whatever will change will need readjustments accordingly in constitution and laws. However there must remain harmony and equilibrium between all related things always or things will not work or fall apart.

The other point to realise is, laws are always based upon reasons or situations for which they are needed. So whenever same thing happens or same situation arises the same laws laws apply. For example, if we pass a law, anyone who murders an innocent person will be put to death then that will happen to the murderer always. However if no one murders anyone then this law will not apply but it will remain enforced waiting for the situation to take place.

When there were no aeroplanes and no airports we did not need related laws and the same could be said about new ways of travelling around. This topic is very complex and cannot be explained in short posts because it has too many aspects. Most people have no idea what is constitution and what is law and how they are related. Constitution is a document which contains aims and objective of an organisation for which people organise. This organisation needs people who are supposed to be responsible for carrying out its objectives. These people are called office bearers. Each office is limited by legislations about its personnel eg chairperson's responsibilities and duties and related powers are decided by clauses in constitution. It also contains penalties for failures of office bearers. Constitution decides jurisdiction or application zone for its laws. This is why a law cannot be applied out side its decided jurisdiction. Likewise there are many other aspects which is very difficult for me to cover in short posts. It involved too much writing for which I do not time.

regards and all the best.

What if in some future hypothetical world we found out through imperial evidence that there were much better deterrents to murder then the death penalty? Would you be willing to move away from the Quran's law in regards to this based on real statistics?

R3verse Swing · Mar 7, 2018

humzy said:
Isn't it logical that as society evolves, so do morals. Therefore you cannot abide by laws set out 1500 years ago. Rather there should be an ability to adjust these based on current intellectual study and thought.

The universe functions on 4 laws, yet evolves.

Mughal · Mar 7, 2018

Napa said:
To believe in heaven and hell without any evidence and then also claim to be a logical thinker is paradoxical.

If you wish to be religious, you should acknowledge that your beliefs are based on faith rather than reason.

If you believe that you have found any logical reason to believe in heaven and hell, then you are deceived.

Dear napa, could you please explain what proof is and how it can prove or disprove existence of God?

regards and all the best.

Mughal · Mar 7, 2018

DW44 said:
Quran itself is inconsistent. If you read it with an open mind - i.e. without the assumption that it's literally the word of god and, therefore, perfect - you will disbelieve. Some of the liberties taken with logic are pretty serious (to kill one person is to kill all humanity... followed by ~35000 references to killing people including for some pretty stupid reasons).

Dear dw44, could you please explain the way to understand the quranic text properly?

regards and all the best.

DW44 · Mar 7, 2018

Mughal said:
Dear dw44, could you please explain the way to understand the quranic text properly?

regards and all the best.

Be objective. Don't assume anything about its veracity or the authenticity of its source. The biggest reason people don't see the problems in it is that they start with the assumption that it's the word of god and, therefore, free of any imperfections or logical falacies. They then rationalize the inconsistencies and morally questionable messages as being acceptable since they're the word of god instead of analyzing them objectively and concluding that a god that claims the kind of perfection the Islamic one does simply can't come up with a message this flawed and contradictory.

Mughal · Mar 7, 2018

humzy said:
What if in some future hypothetical world we found out through imperial evidence that there were much better deterrents to murder then the death penalty? Would you be willing to move away from the Quran's law in regards to this based on real statistics?

Dear humzy, before we could talk about the quran we need to be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that God does exist because only then we can attribute creation and revelation to God. Once we have done that then question arises how humanity can understand message of God properly because there has to be a mechanism that shows it works for this purpose. Only then we can be sure we have understood the quran properly. Then if God exists and the quran proves to be message of God thereafter what God says will have to be accepted and acted upon faithfully and all else has to be rejected.

regards and all the best.

DW44 · Mar 7, 2018

humzy said:
What if in some future hypothetical world we found out through imperial evidence that there were much better deterrents to murder then the death penalty? Would you be willing to move away from the Quran's law in regards to this based on real statistics?

Future hypothetical world? We already know that for a fact right now with some pretty conclusive evidence to that effect. Death penalty is a poor deterrent and justice systems oriented towards punishment rather than rehabilitation almost universally have higher recidivism rates on top of greater prevalence of crimes subject to the harshest punishment. That particular aspect of Islam has already been proven to be deeply flawed, no need to wait for the future.

sensible-indian-fan · Mar 7, 2018

DW44 said:
Future hypothetical world? We already know that for a fact right now with some pretty conclusive evidence to that effect. Death penalty is a poor deterrent and justice systems oriented towards punishment rather than rehabilitation almost universally have higher recidivism rates on top of greater prevalence of crimes subject to the harshest punishment. That particular aspect of Islam has already been proven to be deeply flawed, no need to wait for the future.

I know you are responding to a particular point being raised.

I am curious as to whether you subscribe to that view?

A few days back, a 3 year old girl was raped in India while her 5 year old brother begged and pleaded with the rapist to let his sister go.

In your opinion, what should be done with that rapist?

DW44 · Mar 7, 2018

sensible-indian-fan said:
I know you are responding to a particular point being raised.

I am curious as to whether you subscribe to that view?

A few days back, a 3 year old girl was raped in India while her 5 year old brother begged and pleaded with the rapist to let his sister go.

In your opinion, what should be done with that rapist?

Imprisonment for the rest of his natural life or until evidence that can exonerate him surfaces. People implicated 'beyond a reasonable doubt' have been freed up to four decades after being convicted due to new evidence coming to light due to technological progress and its very arrogant to believe that we have achieved such a level of mastery over technology that wrongful convictions are a thing of the past.

humzy · Mar 7, 2018

DW44 said:
Future hypothetical world? We already know that for a fact right now with some pretty conclusive evidence to that effect. Death penalty is a poor deterrent and justice systems oriented towards punishment rather than rehabilitation almost universally have higher recidivism rates on top of greater prevalence of crimes subject to the harshest punishment. That particular aspect of Islam has already been proven to be deeply flawed, no need to wait for the future.

Me and you know, but a lot of people would disregard that it is fact, therefore i put hypothetical in place to make it an easier discussion to have.

humzy · Mar 7, 2018

Mughal said:
Dear humzy, before we could talk about the quran we need to be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that God does exist because only then we can attribute creation and revelation to God. Once we have done that then question arises how humanity can understand message of God properly because there has to be a mechanism that shows it works for this purpose. Only then we can be sure we have understood the quran properly. Then if God exists and the quran proves to be message of God thereafter what God says will have to be accepted and acted upon faithfully and all else has to be rejected.

regards and all the best.

i have no idea why you couldn't just answer a simple question with a logical answer and say, no you wouldn't accept a fact based on statistical data because it is against the quran.

Therefore you can now throw your logic hat out the window.

miandadrules · Mar 7, 2018

It’s totally logical to have a conclusion and then work backwards.

Just as logical as flying to heaven on a winged human-horse hybrid and splitting the moon in two.

It’s incredibly logical to exalt an eternal truth and change it regularly to suit your needs and desires.

I can’t see what the issue is.

humzy · Mar 7, 2018

miandadrules said:
It’s totally logical to have a conclusion and then work backwards.

Just as logical as flying to heaven on a winged human-horse hybrid and splitting the moon in two.

It’s incredibly logical to exalt an eternal truth and change it regularly to suit your needs and desires.

I can’t see what the issue is.

Well the issue would be that the logic is flawed.

Mughal · Mar 7, 2018

DW44 said:
Be objective. Don't assume anything about its veracity or the authenticity of its source. The biggest reason people don't see the problems in it is that they start with the assumption that it's the word of god and, therefore, free of any imperfections or logical falacies. They then rationalize the inconsistencies and morally questionable messages as being acceptable since they're the word of god instead of analyzing them objectively and concluding that a god that claims the kind of perfection the Islamic one does simply can't come up with a message this flawed and contradictory.

Dear dw44, have you ever read a letter or message without first assuming or knowing who it is from and you got the message of it perfectly? Let me help you understand what I am talking about. Assumptions always have to be made before any investigation to see which way it can make better sense. For example we have a dead body of a person lying on the road and no one there to tell us what happened. How do we go about investigation as to what happened to the person? On one hand we will have to observe available circumstantial evidences we find at the scene of the happening and on the other we will think of possibilities which could be cause of the death. Then we will use method of elimination to see which of the possibilities cannot apply and the remaining will be investigated further and if any does not apply at any stage during investigation process that possibility will also be eliminated till we have solved the problem or the case will remain open till it is decided.

Likewise we have a book claiming to be word of God so in this case also we will have to think of possibilities on one hand and gather evidences on the other and then we will have to eliminate possibilities which do not work and that way we will come to know whether the claim the quran makes is true or false. However before we could decide what the text of the quran is saying we will have to come up with a mechanism of understanding the text of the quran. Why? Because the quran is not making an ordinary claim instead it is making an extraordinary claim that it is word of God therefore question arises how do we tackle that possibility without understanding the quranic text properly. This problem arises because God is not our next door neighbour with whom we interact on daily basis or whom we know very well so we have some idea what he means when he uses a word from our human language. It is because we know the word but only God knows what he is trying to convey to us through that word as his thought. It is like a highly educate person is talking to a human baby who has not yet learned human language. This is why we will have to grow up enough to learn language of God to understand his message just like a human baby will have to grow up to understand what the highly learned person is saying to him.

This is why we need a mechanism which explains to us origin of words and their meanings ie how words came about and how they got their meanings. Once we come to know this mechanism then that mechanism can help us expand meanings of same the words on the very same basis which gave words meanings in the first place. Once we have expanded the meanings of words and have learned sufficient knowledge about real world realities only then we are ready to sit down with the alleged word of God and see how we can make proper sense of its text by assuming God's possible purposes for its revelation. The assumed purpose will give us a context for interpreting the quranic text and if we managed to interpret it correctly then we will find the quran fully consistent within itself and with respect to real world realities. If we do not get that then we will keep changing the contexts till we get what we are looking for do not find any explanation at all that justifies quranic claim. Once we have gone through all possibilities then we can safely claim the quran did not fulfil its claim that it is from God. Most people assume they know the quran but when things start getting tough people realise they have not done their homework. The same is true about all people here on this forum regardless they claim to be muslims or nonmuslims. Same thing happens when I start discussing with people about existence of God. They do not realise the fact that nothing can come out of nothing at all.

regards and all the best.

Napa · Mar 7, 2018

Mughal said:
Dear napa, could you please explain what proof is and how it can prove or disprove existence of God?

regards and all the best.

Hello Mughal,

You can say that God exists because what the Koran says is true. However, that is faith rather than logic. You can say that it is logic because there have been numerous miracles seen by many supporting the Koran. Critics would say that if miracles really support the religion, why not more miracles every day to convince the unbelievers. I am sure there is some reply thought up to answer the critics.

There are many "philosophical" proofs for the existence of gods. You can go with Thomas Aquinas who offered no less than 5 proofs for the existence of God, such as the "unmoved mover".

However, these proofs don't have the force of, say mathematical theorems (which start from well defined and precise axioms and build up), or physical laws like the Laws of Motion of Newton which have been established by experimentation.

Also, supposing that the existence of an "unmoved mover" proves God must exist. That however doesn't explain that there are not two or more Gods, some interested in the welfare of humanity, and others malevolent. Any sort of conclusions may be drawn from such arguments.

There are many possible philosophies for us to follow. The best one is the one which produces the best results for humanity.

Best Wishes,

Napa

barah_admi · Mar 8, 2018

humzy said:
Isn't it logical that as society evolves, so do morals. Therefore you cannot abide by laws set out 1500 years ago. Rather there should be an ability to adjust these based on current intellectual study and thought.

Morals evolved? Can you explain that? Because there are certain things that have been regarded as wrong throughout human history, murder, theft, rape etc. So, just basic research shows you morals do not evolve, not all morals anyway.

DeadBall · Mar 8, 2018

barah_admi said:
Morals evolved? Can you explain that? Because there are certain things that have been regarded as wrong throughout human history, murder, theft, rape etc. So, just basic research shows you morals do not evolve, not all morals anyway.

Morals do evolve, before slavery was alright, marrying 12 year olds was the norm, even murder was alright in form of duels, gladiators etc. What you described are morals somewhat discouraged in their basic form but in different contexts were even encouraged. Morals are even evolving to this day such as the death penalty, gay rights etc.

barah_admi · Mar 8, 2018

DeadBall said:
Morals do evolve, before slavery was alright, marrying 12 year olds was the norm, even murder was alright in form of duels, gladiators etc. What you described are morals somewhat discouraged in their basic form but in different contexts were even encouraged. Morals are even evolving to this day such as the death penalty, gay rights etc.

Slavery has always had forces acting against it and has been in various forms throughout history. Some of those forms were acceptable before and are acceptable now. But that is a legislation issue, I'm asking you how morals have evolved? Especially in relation to Islam, what do you think should be different now?

Mughal · Mar 9, 2018

This is why we need a mechanism which explains to us origin of words and their meanings ie how words came about and how they got their meanings. Once we come to know this mechanism then that mechanism can help us expand meanings of same the words on the very same basis which gave words meanings in the first place. Once we have expanded the meanings of words and have learned sufficient knowledge about real world realities only then we are ready to sit down with the alleged word of God and see how we can make proper sense of its text by assuming God's possible purposes for its revelation. The assumed purpose will give us a context for interpreting the quranic text and if we managed to interpret it correctly then we will find the quran fully consistent within itself and with respect to real world realities. If we do not get that then we will keep changing the contexts till we get what we are looking for do not find any explanation at all that justifies quranic claim. Once we have gone through all possibilities then we can safely claim the quran did not fulfil its claim that it is from God. Most people assume they know the quran but when things start getting tough people realise they have not done their homework. The same is true about all people here on this forum regardless they claim to be muslims or nonmuslims. Same thing happens when I start discussing with people about existence of God. They do not realise the fact that nothing can come out of nothing at all.

Correction for above paragraph which is last one in post 19.

This is why we need a mechanism which explains to us origin of words and their meanings ie how words came about and how they got their meanings. Once we come to know this mechanism then that mechanism can help us expand meanings of the same words on the very same basis which gave words their meanings in the first place. Once we have expanded the meanings of words and have learned sufficient knowledge about real world realities only then we are ready to sit down with the alleged word of God and see how we can make proper sense of its text by assuming God's possible purposes for its revelation. The assumed purpose will give us a context for interpreting the quranic text and if we managed to interpret it correctly then we will find the quran fully consistent within itself and with respect to real world realities. However if we do not get that then we will keep changing the possible contexts till we get what we are looking for but if we do not find any explanation at all that justifies quranic claim then we can safely assume the quran has made a false claim or there is yet another possible context about which we are not aware. Most people assume they know the quran but when things start getting tough people realise they have not done their homework. The same is true about all people here on this forum regardless they claim to be muslims or nonmuslims. Same thing happens when I start discussing with people about existence of God.

They do not realise the fact that only nothing can come out of nothing at all because zero always has to equals zero and one always has to equal one. Zero can never equal one and one can never equal zero. However they keep arguing something can come out of absolute nothing at all because this world is here and we do not know how it came to be so there could be ample possibilities how it came to be. They try to create a possibility where there is none. It is like trying to get wood when there is no tree or after seeing a piece of wood one dismisses existence of tree and instead attribute to something else which cannot give the piece of wood because it does not exist.

R3verse Swing · Mar 9, 2018

barah_admi said:
Slavery has always had forces acting against it and has been in various forms throughout history. Some of those forms were acceptable before and are acceptable now. But that is a legislation issue, I'm asking you how morals have evolved? Especially in relation to Islam, what do you think should be different now?

Precisely. There is a difference with society acceptance and morality. Society may believe same sex marriage is acceptable, doesn't mean it is moral.

JaDed · Mar 9, 2018

Creator exists coz someone created all this, creator according to religion and their theories of law are only theories not proof of existence of such laws.

Mughal · Mar 9, 2018

Napa said:
Hello Mughal,

You can say that God exists because what the Koran says is true. However, that is faith rather than logic. You can say that it is logic because there have been numerous miracles seen by many supporting the Koran. Critics would say that if miracles really support the religion, why not more miracles every day to convince the unbelievers. I am sure there is some reply thought up to answer the critics.

There are many "philosophical" proofs for the existence of gods. You can go with Thomas Aquinas who offered no less than 5 proofs for the existence of God, such as the "unmoved mover".

However, these proofs don't have the force of, say mathematical theorems (which start from well defined and precise axioms and build up), or physical laws like the Laws of Motion of Newton which have been established by experimentation.

Also, supposing that the existence of an "unmoved mover" proves God must exist. That however doesn't explain that there are not two or more Gods, some interested in the welfare of humanity, and others malevolent. Any sort of conclusions may be drawn from such arguments.

There are many possible philosophies for us to follow. The best one is the one which produces the best results for humanity.

Best Wishes,

Napa

Dear napa, I only accept two things as direct acts of God and nothing else at all ie creation and revelation.

So called miracles are not needed for proving existence of God. I do not accept anything can happen in natural world outside natural chain of cause and effect. So there are no supernatural interventions in this world. People who claim such things only prove their lack of knowledge due to their lack of higher level of thinking.

Existence of God can be proven rationally because nothing can come from absolute nothing at all. If we are here it is only because someone intelligent and powerful has brought us here who existed always. People talk about vacuum or multiverses etc etc but no matter how far back we go towards the beginning of things ultimate there has to be the intelligent first cause effect of which is our existence.

Some people say it does not have to be God but it is not possible for something to not to have attributes or characteristics of a God. Why? Because if something did not already exist always then question arises how could it come from nothing at all? The problem with absolute nothingness is that nothing cannot produce anything at all because there is nothing to begin with. This is why I categorise philosophers and scientists and mullahs in the same category ie unreasonable people who lack ability to reason things properly.

Now if God created us then he must have a purpose in his mind for creating us and we cannot know that purpose and plan of to reach his goal unless he tells us and that is where in comes concept of revelation of God.

Once we have a book claiming to be word of God we face a problem. The problem is God says he is all knowing but he created us knowing nothing at all but normally capable of learning. That is why he gave us brains, senses, bodies and things to interact with and learn from. Imagine we had brains and no senses, what will be use of our brains? Imagine he gave us brain sand senses but no such bodies which could go along with out brains and senses? What use will be our brains and senses and bodies if they are not in harmony with each other? Likewise imagine we had brains and senses and bodies but no things to interact with to learn how to use our brains and senses and bodies? Our eyes will be useless if there was no light or things to see. Now imagine that God gave us all this but not his guidance? Will we not live and die utterly confused? Yes , we will.

However the problem is revelation of God will be God's thoughts his explanations not ours therefore we will have to learn how to decode message of God in some way. This is why we will have to reach a level of knowledge where at we could make sense of message from God and only then we will be in peace mentally and physically inside and outside.

The quran starts with talking about a book which is beyond any doubt at all word of God for guidance of human beings who who have desires in their minds for guidance. Why is that the case? It is because till a human beings rises in his knowledge to a thought level where he questions things and their origin and purpose he cannot be guided nor he realises he needs any guidance because till that point one is just like other animals who live for eating and eat for living and have no much thought about origin and purpose ie they are not concerned with business of God. This is why book of God is not for everyone but for those who wish to learn about their origin and purpose according to their creator and therefore they have learned the needed knowledge to understand it through interaction with real world realities. Such people will end up with much better understanding of the book of God than all others put together with all their phds. A proof is you will see people who claim to be muslims many of them are phds but they follow their mullahs blindly instead of learning to interpret the quranic message themselves in light of real world realities. You will likewise see nonmuslim phds they too argue against the quranic message based upon mullahs' misinterpretations of the quran. They do not study the quran as they are supposed to to argue against it.

I will try and explain thing yet more as I get the time, meanwhile regards and all the best.

Mughal · Mar 9, 2018

humzy said:
i have no idea why you couldn't just answer a simple question with a logical answer and say, no you wouldn't accept a fact based on statistical data because it is against the quran.

Therefore you can now throw your logic hat out the window.

Dear humzy, the problem with our knowledge is, it is patchy not perfect. Knowledge of God is perfect ie complete. This being the case God has set a standard for us to reach. So morals when we look at them from God's point of view never change and cannot change and do not need to change because they are already perfect as a standard. However we human beings are born babies without knowing a things and grow from babies and so from our points of views morals change with time because our understanding keeps changing with time and new developments and progress in our knowledge of things. This is why what we think is right one day we think it is not right the next day.

Our understanding of message of God also depends fully 100% upon our knowledge about real world realities so as our views change about real word realities so does our understanding of word of God. There is neither anything wrong with the quran nor anything wrong with our thinking and doing things because this is the way things are set by God to work for his own purpose according to his own plan.

regards and all he best.

humzy · Mar 10, 2018

barah_admi said:
Slavery has always had forces acting against it and has been in various forms throughout history. Some of those forms were acceptable before and are acceptable now. But that is a legislation issue, I'm asking you how morals have evolved? Especially in relation to Islam, what do you think should be different now?

Thats not true. Slavery was morally fine for the enslavors and seen as their right. Read your history. of course the enslaved thought it was morally wrong because they were the victims!

To say that morality has not evolved shows a clear lack of historical context. Once again, READ YOUR HISTORY

barah_admi · Mar 12, 2018

humzy said:
Thats not true. Slavery was morally fine for the enslavors and seen as their right. Read your history. of course the enslaved thought it was morally wrong because they were the victims!

To say that morality has not evolved shows a clear lack of historical context. Once again, READ YOUR HISTORY

You have interrupted a conversation which you do not fully understand and the person I replied to seems to have run off because he could not back up his claim. If he you want to talk about slavery, its history and how it has changed, start a thread about it and tag me in it.

barah_admi · Mar 12, 2018

R3verse Swing said:
Precisely. There is a difference with society acceptance and morality. Society may believe same sex marriage is acceptable, doesn't mean it is moral.

Exactly!

Seems dead ball has run off.

DeadBall · Mar 12, 2018

barah_admi said:
Exactly!

Seems dead ball has run off.

Same sex marriage has to do with societal morality. Everybody should be treated equally regardless of their sexual preferences as long as it is between two consenting adults. Even people who used to morally opposed to it due to their religious, cultural, etc views are now accepting LGBT as their equals and that is an example of morals evolving. As for the slavery part, I think [MENTION=49152]humzy[/MENTION] has already answered the slavery argument

barah_admi · Mar 12, 2018

DeadBall said:
Same sex marriage has to do with societal morality. Everybody should be treated equally regardless of their sexual preferences as long as it is between two consenting adults. Even people who used to morally opposed to it due to their religious, cultural, etc views are now accepting LGBT as their equals and that is an example of morals evolving. As for the slavery part, I think [MENTION=49152]humzy[/MENTION] has already answered the slavery argument

No he hasnt answered the slavery argument because that is not what the discussion was. I asked you what in Islam is outdated and why? You have failed to answer that for 4 posts now.

As for homosexuality, why is it morally acceptable? And why is it wrong for Muslims to be against it? If we look at it objectively, homosexuality damages society and health, so why should one be accepting of it?

DeadBall · Mar 12, 2018

barah_admi said:
No he hasnt answered the slavery argument because that is not what the discussion was. I asked you what in Islam is outdated and why? You have failed to answer that for 4 posts now.

As for homosexuality, why is it morally acceptable? And why is it wrong for Muslims to be against it? If we look at it objectively, homosexuality damages society and health, so why should one be accepting of it?

Can you tell me what damages it does to society and health? Society seems to be working really well in places where they are being treated as equal human beings, in fact some of the biggest contributors to societal, scientific, cultural, mathematical, etc advancement have been gay like Turing considered by many as the father of computing (Who actually died prematurely as he has given hormones and medication to "fix his condition"), DaVinci, Michealangelo etc.

Baray aadmi ki liye buhut choti soch hai.

barah_admi · Mar 12, 2018

DeadBall said:
Can you tell me what damages it does to society and health? Society seems to be working really well in places where they are being treated as equal human beings, in fact some of the biggest contributors to societal, scientific, cultural, mathematical, etc advancement have been gay like Turing considered by many as the father of computing (Who actually died prematurely as he has given hormones and medication to "fix his condition"), DaVinci, Michealangelo etc.

Baray aadmi ki liye buhut choti soch hai.

Wait, before we go any further, you have failed to answer my question for the 5th time. As this is a discussion, you must answer my question, which I posed first and then you answer yours. I asked which of Islams morals/rules/regulations, whatever terms you want to use, are outdated, and why?

R3verse Swing · Mar 12, 2018

Small point, in the UK, same sex marriages was more about equal rights when it came to taxes, tax breaks, and inheritance.

Mughal · May 23, 2018

Vital importance of logically consistent thinking according to the Quran

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