Vladimir Putin says insulting Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is 'violation of religious freedom'

[Lonewarrior]

MOSCOW, December 23. /TASS/. Russian President Vladimir Putin on Thursday said insulting Prophet Muhammad doesn’t count as the expression of artistic freedom.

Insults to the prophet are a "violation of religious freedom and the violation of the sacred feelings of people who profess Islam," he said during his annual news conference.

https://tass.com/society/1380235

 

[sweep_shot]

Well done, Putin.

He is right.

 

[RexRex]

https://tass.com/society/1380235

Why do you think the opinion of a man, who murders his political oponents or anyone who challenges him, is worth hearing on religion?

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://www.trtworld.com/asia/putin-insulting-prophet-muhammad-is-not-freedom-of-expression-52961

Russian President Vladimir Putin has said insulting Prophet Muhammad does not count as freedom of expression.

Insults to the prophet are a "violation of religious freedom and the violation of the sacred feelings of people who profess Islam,", Putin said on Thursday during his annual news conference, Russian News Agency TASS reported.

Putin also criticised posting photos of Nazis on websites such as the one titled the Immortal Regiment dedicated to Russians that died in World War Two.

Putin said these acts give rise to extremist reprisals, citing as an example the attack on the editorial office of Charlie Hebdo magazine in Paris after its publication of cartoons of the prophet.

While praising artistic freedom in general, Putin said it has its limits and it should not infringe on other freedoms.

Russia has evolved as a multi-ethnic and multi-confessional state, so Russians, he said, are used to respecting each other’s traditions.

In some other countries, this respect comes in short supply, Putin said.

 

[Last Monetarist]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I welcome President Putin's statement which reaffirms my message that insulting our Holy Prophet PBUH is not " freedom of expression". We Muslims, esp Muslim leaders, must spread this message to leaders of the non-Muslim world to counter Islamophobia. <a href="https://t.co/JUKKvRYBSx">https://t.co/JUKKvRYBSx</a></p>— Imran Khan (@ImranKhanPTI) <a href="https://twitter.com/ImranKhanPTI/status/1474394684826947585?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 24, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Poseidon]

Why do you think the opinion of a man, who murders his political oponents or anyone who challenges him, is worth hearing on religion?

ok. so who should be worth hearing ? modi ? french Omacron ? just asking a question here.

 

[Robert]

Wonder why he is saying this? Looking for some geopolitical advantage, I expect. Some alliance to be made.

 

[RexRex]

ok. so who should be worth hearing ? modi ? french Omacron ? just asking a question here.

Any leader who supports the liberal ideas of democracy and free expression/right to criticise is someone I would listen to, not dictators like Xi and Putin.

 

[Technics 1210]

Wonder why he is saying this? Looking for some geopolitical advantage, I expect. Some alliance to be made.

Putin also criticised posting photos of Nazis on websites such as the one titled the Immortal Regiment dedicated to Russians that died in World War Two.

Putin said these acts give rise to extremist reprisals, citing as an example the attack on the editorial office of Charlie Hebdo magazine in Paris after its publication of cartoons of the prophet.

Putin is just pointing put the obvious. Even if it were to build alliances, he’s smart cos the West, in particular the UK, has no alliances worthy of note.

 

[Lego20]

There should be absolute freedom of speech even if it is disagreeable or of the filthiest kind. The listeners should own it to filter/ignore/counter it.

Any kind of censorship is going to be biased and will eventually become politicized. Best example is ban on Donald Trump. Like him or not, it is absolutely wrong to ban him and voice him out right the day after he lost election.

 

[sweep_shot]

Any kind of censorship is going to be biased and will eventually become politicized. Best example is ban on Donald Trump. Like him or not, it is absolutely wrong to ban him and voice him out right the day after he lost election.

Due to Trump's rhetoric, many far-right terror attacks took place.

The January 6 Capitol attack was perhaps the final nail in the coffin for him. He was banned after that.

Freedom of speech should have a limit.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

here we go again...

How soon when someone in the west will disagree with Putin's remarks and spews crap to prove his own point?

We should simply ignore and let the trolls die to their own death. This is the best way to deal with this matter.

The more you react, the more fun they get out of it. Stop dancing like a monkey on their drum beats.

 

[Technics 1210]

Wonder why he is saying this? Looking for some geopolitical advantage, I expect. Some alliance to be made.

Forgot to ask, do you agree or disagree with what Putin has said?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Great of Putin to say this and his opinion will no doubt earn him respect across the muslim world.

Thank you Vlad for standing up for human decency.

It is sad that standards of decency across the western world have dropped to low that the measure of freedom is to wanting to draw crude cartoons.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Wonder why he is saying this? Looking for some geopolitical advantage, I expect. Some alliance to be made.

Some muslim eschatologists have long argued that when the hadith of muslim alliance with 'ruum' refers to an alliance between Islam and Eastern Orthodox Christianity with is now centred in Russia.

Interestingly Alexandr Dugin one of Russias most distinguished political philosophers ( and an indirect influence on Steve Bannon) has long championed strategic alliances between Russia and 'traditional Muslims' i.e non-wahabis who he feels are firmly in the grasp of the Americans.

Dugin sees an alliance in 'Eurasia' as being essential to stop American imperialism.

Russia has alliances with Iran and have thwarted American aims in the ME numerous times already so I suspect Putin will want to continue to build alliances with Muslim countries to thwart American ambitions within the central asian states.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Lol. Vladimir Putin, newest hero of the Muslim world. Mullah bros, please keep it halal.

 

[Pakpak]

Lol. Vladimir Putin, newest hero of the Muslim world. Mullah bros, please keep it halal.

And people also forget Russia supports all the far right parties in Europe esp through social media bots or money. Parties who are all rabidly islamophobic.

 

[Third_Umpire]

And people also forget Russia supports all the far right parties in Europe esp through social media bots or money. Parties who are all rabidly islamophobic.

It’s the same story as China, biggest abusers and murderers of Muslims but you’ll never hear a peep from Muslims esp. Pakistanis

 

[Lego20]

Due to Trump's rhetoric, many far-right terror attacks took place.

The January 6 Capitol attack was perhaps the final nail in the coffin for him. He was banned after that.

Freedom of speech should have a limit.

Donald Trump can and should be allowed to say anything he wants. The blame is on the rioters to not use their sound judgement.

This is where I think it is upside down. Curbing freedom of expression is not an answer to weak personal sensitivity and responsibility of judgement and actions.

 

[Robert]

Putin is just pointing put the obvious. Even if it were to build alliances, he’s smart cos the West, in particular the UK, has no alliances worthy of note.

Well, we burned EU membership and seem determined to alienate them further but still have

NATO

Five Eyes

AUKUS

Putin has no regard for freedom of speech in his own country. Two hundred journalists have been disappeared on his watch. RT is a government mouthpiece. So I wonder what his game is here. Some sort of overture to Iran, Syria, Pakistan?

 

[Robert]

Great of Putin to say this and his opinion will no doubt earn him respect across the muslim world.

Thank you Vlad for standing up for human decency.

It is sad that standards of decency across the western world have dropped to low that the measure of freedom is to wanting to draw crude cartoons.

That’s rather an overgeneralisation don’t you think? Charlie Hebdo is not “the western world” it’s one privately owned magazine in one city.

Elevating Putin for standing up for “human decency” is somewhat hypocritical when you consider how many hundreds of thousands of Muslims he has deprived of life in his own country as well as in Syria.

Is a magazine publishing a silly cartoon really more offensive to Muslims than killing Muslims on an industrial scale? If Bush 43 suddenly said what Putin did, would the Muslim world forgive him for Iraq?

Thanks for your second post which was informative.

 

[Robert]

Forgot to ask, do you agree or disagree with what Putin has said?

I apply this principle regarding freedom of speech - I have the lawful *right* to shout “Fire!” In a crowded cinema even if there is no fire.

However my *right* to freedom of speech is balanced by my *responsibility* to others not to cause chaos, fear and destruction.

So I don’t shout “Fire!” In the cinema.

Similarly I will not provoke a religious person to anger for the sake of elevating a principle.. I don’t understand the need for religion, and took decades purging it from my own thinking. But it is still very important to a lot of people so I don’t insult the memory of Guru Nanak to a Sikh, Jesus to a Christian, or Muhammad to a Muslim. I try always to be a very polite and respectful person

 

[Robert]

And people also forget Russia supports all the far right parties in Europe esp through social media bots or money. Parties who are all rabidly islamophobic.

Excellent point. Putin says one thing to please Muslims while encouraging his proxies to do the opposite, deliberately destabilising nations and making life more dangerous for the Muslims who live in them.

 

[Varun]

Who would fall for these politician statements apart from the most naive.

 

[RajBan]

Who would fall for these politician statements apart from the most naive.

Well Imran already did. The guy had so much opportunities and backing from both civil society and establishment but downgraded on all fronts - economy, foreign relations, socio political dynamics.

 

[Robert]

Well Imran already did. The guy had so much opportunities and backing from both civil society and establishment but downgraded on all fronts - economy, foreign relations, socio political dynamics.

Ah, but Imran in turn is saying it to please the voters. Populism 101.

 

[James]

I occupy two positions simultaneously here, in that I agree with Putin’s statement in of itself that religious figures including the Prophet PBUH should not be insulted and that this is a violation of freedom of speech / responsibility of speech; but I also think that the statement has been made by Putin with an ulterior motive and for the reasons of geopolitics, international relations, and realpolitik — it has of course already reaped some benefit! — which is fair enough really, because that is how the world works.

 

[Technics 1210]

Well, we burned EU membership and seem determined to alienate them further but still have

NATO

Five Eyes

AUKUS

Putin has no regard for freedom of speech in his own country. Two hundred journalists have been disappeared on his watch. RT is a government mouthpiece. So I wonder what his game is here. Some sort of overture to Iran, Syria, Pakistan?

The alliances you have listed not only overlap but also prove the point the West only forms alliances with fellow white Judeo-Christian countries.

Freedom of speech is different to freedom of expression. Free speech means criticising the government without any repercussions, and yeah, in Russia freedom of speech doesn’t exist but neither does it in the West. You talk about journalists going missing, in the West speaking against the government can also land you in prison (Assange is a good example). Also Trump is banned from speaking out on social media, so much for free speech/expression in the West.

RT is state owned, so what? So is the BBC. Every national media outlet is a government mouthpiece in one way or another.

Freedom of expression is totally different. I can have an opinion on anything without fear or hinderance; except of course, If I deny the Holocaust, I am a criminal in 14 western countries. So much for freedom of expression in the West.

Putin hasn’t singled out Islam, he has also mentioned that posting Pro-Nazi views is akin to insulting Muslims, in the same way Nazism is insulting to Jews.

Putin’s game here is simple, he is building cross-nation/ideological alliances. He wants the East to unite against the West, and why not considering the West only stick to their own and have caused more ideological wars than any civilisation known to man.

 

[Technics 1210]

I apply this principle regarding freedom of speech - I have the lawful *right* to shout “Fire!” In a crowded cinema even if there is no fire.

However my *right* to freedom of speech is balanced by my *responsibility* to others not to cause chaos, fear and destruction.

So I don’t shout “Fire!” In the cinema.

Similarly I will not provoke a religious person to anger for the sake of elevating a principle.. I don’t understand the need for religion, and took decades purging it from my own thinking. But it is still very important to a lot of people so I don’t insult the memory of Guru Nanak to a Sikh, Jesus to a Christian, or Muhammad to a Muslim. I try always to be a very polite and respectful person

Free speech vs. Freedom of expression.

Shouting ‘fire’ is an example of expression, not free speech.

So you in essence you agree with Putin, be polite and be respectful when it comes to freedom of expression.

 

[Technics 1210]

Excellent point. Putin says one thing to please Muslims while encouraging his proxies to do the opposite, deliberately destabilising nations and making life more dangerous for the Muslims who live in them.

No different to the West waging wars in the Middle East. One minute promoting pluralism and equality towards minorities, and the next, deliberately, illegally, immorally destabilising the ME.

 

[LongHorn]

Imran Hossein fans will be ecstatic. That Shaikh believes Russians are allies of Muslims, that Orthodox Christians will enter Jannah, and that Turkey is the most evil country on earth.
He promises Russians that Muslims will attack Istanbul and hand over Aya Sofia back to them

 

[DeadlyVenom]

That’s rather an overgeneralisation don’t you think? Charlie Hebdo is not “the western world” it’s one privately owned magazine in one city.

Elevating Putin for standing up for “human decency” is somewhat hypocritical when you consider how many hundreds of thousands of Muslims he has deprived of life in his own country as well as in Syria.

Is a magazine publishing a silly cartoon really more offensive to Muslims than killing Muslims on an industrial scale? If Bush 43 suddenly said what Putin did, would the Muslim world forgive him for Iraq?

Thanks for your second post which was informative.

The Western world collectively came together and chanted slogans of je suis charlie.

Putin entered the war in Syria to protect the Syrian regime against ISIS and the United States. Syria unfortunately became hell for Syrians, and civilians were killed in record numbers....but Putin entered the war four years later in 2015. From 2011-2015 the western backed coalition had been financing ISIS.

 

[Robert]

Free speech vs. Freedom of expression.

Shouting ‘fire’ is an example of expression, not free speech.

So you in essence you agree with Putin, be polite and be respectful when it comes to freedom of expression.

Not exactly - he is putting a limit on freedom of expression and calling it freedom of religion. They are not the same. Curtailing freedom of religion would mean the state shutting the places of worship. That’s what Stalin, Hitler and ISIL did.

I don’t put limits on freedom of expression - instead I say be polite and respectful in all circumstances. The exception I make is where someone is being oppressed - in which case I say speak truth to power.

 

[Technics 1210]

Not exactly - he is putting a limit on freedom of expression and calling it freedom of religion. They are not the same. Curtailing freedom of religion would mean the state shutting the places of worship. That’s what Stalin, Hitler and ISIL did.

I don’t put limits on freedom of expression - instead I say be polite and respectful in all circumstances. The exception I make is where someone is being oppressed - in which case I say speak truth to power.

Where has Putin put a limit on freedom expression? He’s just saying being respectful and responsible. Or do you believe the right to freedom of expression is the right to offend?

 

[Robert]

Where has Putin put a limit on freedom expression? He’s just saying being respectful and responsible. Or do you believe the right to freedom of expression is the right to offend?

In part, yes.

My right not to be offended by you is less important than your right of expression, because I own my emotions. I don’t have to get angry, I choose to. I could just as easily choose to ignore your expression.

 

[Technics 1210]

In part, yes.

My right not to be offended by you is less important than your right of expression, because I own my emotions. I don’t have to get angry, I choose to. I could just as easily choose to ignore your expression.

Yes we can choose not to be offended, but when living in a system where the right to offend is subjective will lead to problems. Under freedom of expression it seems to me society has the right to offend Muslims, but then said rights are out then window when it comes to offending Jews. Perhaps the West should address this hypocrisy.

On the topic of ignoring expressions, as a liberal can you ignore the far right and their views? As civilians of ME, is it easy to ignore war carried out in the expression of Western democracy? Can blacks simply ignore racism?

On another point, someone disagreeing with Islam is very different if that said someone is goading Muslims. Big difference.

 

[James]

The Western world collectively came together and chanted slogans of je suis charlie.

I honestly can’t remember whether this level of unity across the whole society was observed or not. But either way I don’t think it would happen now. It feels like there has been a bit of a sea change over the last few years, and there would nowadays be just as many voices in the west speaking out against crude Charlie Hebdo drawings as there would be defenders of these unfunny cartoons.

 

[Giannis]

I appreciate his comments but a part of me thinks he's just being a politician and is trying to placate the large Muslim minority in Russia - the Northern Caucasus is mostly Muslim and as well the Tatars who are Russia's second largest ethnicity and prominent in the Russian establishment, so it's wise of Putin to respect Muslims. In America Muslims are barely a fraction of the population and don't matter in most of the flyover states or even big states outside the big metro areas but if we ever do reach significant numbers then the way Muslims are treated and talked about will change and we'll be a priority to politicians but that's a long time from now (if ever).

 

[KingKhanWC]

It’s the same story as China, biggest abusers and murderers of Muslims but you’ll never hear a peep from Muslims esp. Pakistanis

Please prove this.

Russia and China havent been flying around bombing Muslim children around the world in numerous countries. The war on terror policies which both nations did not particpate in killed an est 4 million people in the last 2 decades alone. Add this to the destruction of multiple nation such as Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria etc.

If it wasnt for Putin and Russia, Syria would also have fallen.

Russians are Orthodox Christians. West is fully immeresed in Zionist ideology. Its idiotic to think the latter is the lover of Muslims and the former the enemy of Muslims.

In Europe leaders are cheerleading disgusting magazines such as Hebdo. Putin doesent support the abuse of the Prophet(pbuh) even if its ok with you.

 

[Kroll]

Islam is recognised under law as one of Russia's traditional religions, a part of Russian historical heritage, and is subsidized by the Russian government

 

[Local.Dada]

Please prove this.

Russia and China havent been flying around bombing Muslim children around the world in numerous countries. The war on terror policies which both nations did not particpate in killed an est 4 million people in the last 2 decades alone. Add this to the destruction of multiple nation such as Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Syria etc.

If it wasnt for Putin and Russia, Syria would also have fallen.

Russians are Orthodox Christians. West is fully immeresed in Zionist ideology. Its idiotic to think the latter is the lover of Muslims and the former the enemy of Muslims.

In Europe leaders are cheerleading disgusting magazines such as Hebdo. Putin doesent support the abuse of the Prophet(pbuh) even if its ok with you.

You should think about moving to Russia or China then. Forget about Afghan war of the 2000’s, if you go back in history Britain has done a lot more damage to Muslims collectively than any other empire. May be you should think twice paying taxes.

Islamophobia doesn’t actually exist due to terrorists. Any reasonable person knows can’t judge an entire religion because of a few but it’s these kind of views why the west looks at even the honest hardworking Muslims with suspicion.

 

[Robert]

Yes we can choose not to be offended, but when living in a system where the right to offend is subjective will lead to problems. Under freedom of expression it seems to me society has the right to offend Muslims, but then said rights are out then window when it comes to offending Jews. Perhaps the West should address this hypocrisy.

On the topic of ignoring expressions, as a liberal can you ignore the far right and their views? As civilians of ME, is it easy to ignore war carried out in the expression of Western democracy? Can blacks simply ignore racism?

Of course not, and especially remembering who I am married to. I have skin in this game, literally. I am trying to do something about the far right by getting moderates elected to councils and Parliament.

Muslims have exactly the same legal protection as Jews. We have laws to protect Muslims and Jews from discrimination on the basis of religion and/or race, but if giving offence is made against the law we are well on the way to totalitarianism.

 

[Robert]

The Western world collectively came together and chanted slogans of je suis charlie.

No it didn’t.

Lots of French did because they saw their liberté under attack, and a few Americans did - who fetishise free speech IMO.

I said Je ne suis pas Charlie, because I don’t poke people in the chest for no reason other than I can.

 

[Technics 1210]

Of course not, and especially remembering who I am married to. I have skin in this game, literally. I am trying to do something about the far right by getting moderates elected to councils and Parliament.

Muslims have exactly the same legal protection as Jews. We have laws to protect Muslims and Jews from discrimination on the basis of religion and/or race, but if giving offence is made against the law we are well on the way to totalitarianism.

Jews are protected by discrimination based on religion AND race.

Muslims are protected by discrimination based on religion only.

Jews are considered a race, Muslims are not.

Try offending a Jew and tell me whether the outcry will be different to that when offending Muslims or not; it will be on an entirely different level.

Anyway, the point is you cannot just say Muslims can choose not to be offended or choose to ignore when no one else does. If you cannot ignore, why expect Muslims to ignore?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Jews are protected by discrimination based on religion AND race.

Muslims are protected by discrimination based on religion only.

Jews are considered a race, Muslims are not.

Try offending a Jew and tell me whether the outcry will be different to that when offending Muslims or not; it will be on an entirely different level.

Anyway, the point is you cannot just say Muslims can choose not to be offended or choose to ignore when no one else does. If you cannot ignore, why expect Muslims to ignore?

According to their own history it was the Europeans who discriminated and butchered so many Jews. In English schools they will spend hours explaining the holocaust but will forget to you say, the UK was very anti-Jewish too. Its a combination of self guilt coupled with propaganda to support their new crusader outpost known as Israel.

We cannot expect Europeans to be consistent or fair, their principles are based on their interets which is why many times they are hypocritical.

 

[Technics 1210]

According to their own history it was the Europeans who discriminated and butchered so many Jews. In English schools they will spend hours explaining the holocaust but will forget to you say, the UK was very anti-Jewish too. Its a combination of self guilt coupled with propaganda to support their new crusader outpost known as Israel.

We cannot expect Europeans to be consistent or fair, their principles are based on their interets which is why many times they are hypocritical.

The EU is a fascist superstate; even today there’s a massive rise of rightwing politics. The European continent itself is responsible for the deadliest world wars and genocide known to mankind. Even with NATO, Europe is goading Russia by parking weapons on the Edge of NATO boundaries with Russia.

When I was at school, we were mostly taught the Holocaust and that Hitler was evil and how Britain won the war etc etc. We were never taught what lead to Nazism (austerity) and that Weimar Germany was the trigger to austerity which was the result of Germans paying the price for WW1 - the irony is Germany never started WW1. Of course the role of Zionists was all but ignored (Harvana agreement etc).

Ken Livingston was suspended from the Labour party after comments he made about Hitler supporting Zionism - which is a documented fact (Harvana agreement), but Zionists want to keep the truth under wraps because if it were up to them they’d criminalise any questioning of Jewish/Zionist history, in the UK. They’ve managed to criminalise elsewhere in Europe where Holocaust denial is a crime.

It’s one rule for Jews/Zionist, and another rule for everyone else.

 

[Technics 1210]

No it didn’t.

Lots of French did because they saw their liberté under attack, and a few Americans did - who fetishise free speech IMO.

I said Je ne suis pas Charlie, because I don’t poke people in the chest for no reason other than I can.

Yes it did. Check this list out, notice how Western media united.




Je suis Charlie" was used on the following websites:

Libération, Le Monde, and Le Figaro and other French media used it as a banner across the top of their websites.[59]

The Spectator writer Alex Massie in his article "Je Suis Charlie."[60]

On 7 January, Reddit changed its logo to show its mascot holding a Je suis Charlie placard.

More than 30 journalism agencies and organizations in the United States (including the National Press Photographers Association, the Online News Association, the Society of Professional Journalists, the Newseum, the National Press Club, and the Newspaper Association of America) joined Charlie Hebdo in solidarity by adding their names to a Je suis Charlie banner.[61]

On 8 January, Belgian financial newspaper De Tijd and French newspapers Libération and L'indépendant issued entirely black front pages referencing the Je suis Charlie slogan.[62][63]

Daily Mirror, Irish Mirror, Manchester Evening News, Liverpool Echo, and other Trinity Mirror titles used it as a banner across their websites.

Spotify had the hashtag #jesuischarlie on the player homepage.

Editors of the Estonian newspaper Postimees used the slogan in their group photo, in both French and in Estonian.[64]

Editors of the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet used the slogan as the header of their website, the logo was used in French.[65]

On 8 January, the paper changed the logo of the paper from Aftonbladet to Je suis Charlie using the same typeface as the paper's original logo.[66]

AFNIC, the non-profit that manages French domain names, built an ASCII art picture of the phrase into all WHOIS requests for French domain names.[33]

Google France and Apple Inc France both placed Je suis Charlie pictures on their homepages.[67][68]

19 January – 5 February 2015 issue of the American magazine TV Guide featured the inclusion of the "Je suis Charlie" button next to its logo on the front cover.[69]

The editorial committee of the Latin crosswords magazine Hebdomada Aenigmatum translated the slogan in Latin language "Ego sum Carolus" and used it for the cover and for some of the puzzles in their January 2015 issue.[70]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Je_suis_Charlie

 

[Robert]

The EU is a fascist superstate;

Untrue. No Great Leader principle, no autarky, no aggressive nationalism. The EU is the opposite of fascism. Free and fair elections, free trade and no warfare.

even today there’s a massive rise of rightwing politics.

There is a rise in right wing parties, but this is not a function of the EU.

The European continent itself is responsible for the deadliest world wars and genocide known to mankind.

Untrue - twentieth century Europeans were no angels but consider the Taiping Rebellion which reduced the global population by 2%, The Great Leap Forward, the Soviet Gulag and Holodomor, and the Armenian slaughter.

Since the 1956 formation of the underpinnings of the EU, there have been no more European wars. It is literally impossible as the economies are so fundamentally tied together. (Before you mention former Yugoslavia, that was a Soviet client state and not part of the EEC / EC / EU at the time of the genocide there.)

Even with NATO, Europe is goading Russia by parking weapons on the Edge of NATO boundaries with Russia.

A distortion. The European states bordering Russia joined NATO for protection from Russia. The NATO buildup in Estonia is to protect the Baltic states from invasion.

Consider the Russian nuclear missile base in Kaliningrad too, well in range of the Baltics, Scandinavia, Poland and Germany.

When I was at school, we were mostly taught the Holocaust and that Hitler was evil and how Britain won the war etc etc. We were never taught what lead to Nazism (austerity) and that Weimar Germany was the trigger to austerity which was the result of Germans paying the price for WW1 - the irony is Germany never started WW1. Of course the role of Zionists was all but ignored (Harvana agreement etc).

Imperial Germany piled in to support Austria-Hungary immediately, and invaded Belgium. That was the trigger for the Entente to declare war against Germany.

The reasons for the rise of Nazism were complex, as these things always are - the philosophy of Nietzche, the revolution against Kaiser Wilhelm II, war reparations, the Wall Street Crash and Hindenberg's craven decision to hand power to a Nazi minority government were all factors.

Ken Livingston was suspended from the Labour party after comments he made about Hitler supporting Zionism - which is a documented fact (Harvana agreement), but Zionists want to keep the truth under wraps because if it were up to them they’d criminalise any questioning of Jewish/Zionist history, in the UK. They’ve managed to criminalise elsewhere in Europe where Holocaust denial is a crime.

It’s one rule for Jews/Zionist, and another rule for everyone else.

It's a lie, which I have nailed on these pages before, but some lies are persistent so I'll do it again - early on in their reign the Nazis allowed well-off Jews to leave Germany for Palestine at the price of forfeiture of most of their property to the state. This was an early indicator of what became the Final Solution against European and Russian Jewry.

 

[Robert]

Yes it did. Check this list out, notice how Western media united.

OK, there was more of it than I thought - I never really noticed much of it, being on an American rock music board quite a bit in those days, when I took the Yanks on with a bash at Je suis Charlie.

There was no press unity though - the New York Times, for example, stated Je ne suis pas Charlie and denounced Hebdo as a puerile magazine which would be considered hate speech in the USA. Which is is, IMO.

 

[Technics 1210]

It's a lie, which I have nailed on these pages before, but some lies are persistent so I'll do it again - early on in their reign the Nazis allowed well-off Jews to leave Germany for Palestine at the price of forfeiture of most of their property to the state. This was an early indicator of what became the Final Solution against European and Russian Jewry.

The Harvana agreement isn't a lie; it's a documented fact. You are trying to change a historical documented fact to suit the Zionist view.

 

[Technics 1210]

The reasons for the rise of Nazism were complex, as these things always are - the philosophy of Nietzche, the revolution against Kaiser Wilhelm II, war reparations, the Wall Street Crash and Hindenberg's craven decision to hand power to a Nazi minority government were all factors.

Yup, austerity.

The rise of Nazism isn't complex when history is riddled with examples of facism following periods of austerity.

 

[Technics 1210]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] - EU is a superstate that is centrally governed by Germany. Germany controls the EU, EZ, and the Euro.

EU turned a blind eye on Yugoslavia thus Bosnian war which lead to many Musilms dying.

Please don't tell me that Yugoslavia wasn't in the EU so EU didn't have to help considering EU is happy to help in ME wars under the guise of NATO.

You should ask yourself when is a Western leader going to say what Putin has?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

No it didn’t.

Lots of French did because they saw their liberté under attack, and a few Americans did - who fetishise free speech IMO.

I said Je ne suis pas Charlie, because I don’t poke people in the chest for no reason other than I can.

I honestly can’t remember whether this level of unity across the whole society was observed or not. But either way I don’t think it would happen now. It feels like there has been a bit of a sea change over the last few years, and there would nowadays be just as many voices in the west speaking out against crude Charlie Hebdo drawings as there would be defenders of these unfunny cartoons.

I remember it quite clearly and it seemed like widespread support, perhaps it made a bigger impact on me than you guys.

Even when some media outlets refused to republish the cartoons, it was not because they felt that the cartoons were disgusting but they portrayed as a refusal to publish out of fear that the mad muslims would get them.

 

[Major]

Time for Pakistan to start supporting Putin now...........

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] - EU is a superstate that is centrally governed by Germany. Germany controls the EU, EZ, and the Euro.

EU turned a blind eye on Yugoslavia thus Bosnian war which lead to many Musilms dying.

Please don't tell me that Yugoslavia wasn't in the EU so EU didn't have to help considering EU is happy to help in ME wars under the guise of NATO.

You should ask yourself when is a Western leader going to say what Putin has?

Err, not. Germany is one government among 27 and not fascist - probably the least fascist possible as their constitution is engineered to prevent that ever happening again.

Germany has a lot of clout economically but is heavily outnumbered in terms of MEP seats. The sad thing is that our population is rising while theirs falls and we would have had more MEPs than them if we had stayed.

EU doesn't have an army so could do nothing. NATO eventually took action to stop the genocide.

I expect never as it does not need to be said - hate speech law etc. protects Muslims.

 

[Technics 1210]

Err, not. Germany is one government among 27 and not fascist - probably the least fascist possible as their constitution is engineered to prevent that ever happening again.

Germany has a lot of clout economically but is heavily outnumbered in terms of MEP seats. The sad thing is that our population is rising while theirs falls and we would have had more MEPs than them if we had stayed.

EU doesn't have an army so could do nothing. NATO eventually took action to stop the genocide.

I expect never as it does not need to be said - hate speech law etc. protects Muslims.

Who said hate speech laws do not protect Muslims? This Isn't the point. The point is what is considered hate speech in the West? Remember a cartoon of the prophet was deemed absolutely lawful under freedom of expression while causing offence to Muslims around the world.


Again, why doesn't a Western leader make the same statement as Putin?

 

[Technics 1210]

Offensive cartoon of the Prophet is acceptable under freedom of expression meanwhile the very mention of Harvana agreement is deemed anti-Semitic (Ken Livingston was suspended).

Welcome to the double standards of the West.

 

[Local.Dada]

Offensive cartoon of the Prophet is acceptable under freedom of expression meanwhile the very mention of Harvana agreement is deemed anti-Semitic (Ken Livingston was suspended).

Welcome to the double standards of the West.

Those double standards are called selective diplomacy and looking out for their interests. That is why they have made progress.Why is this such an alien concept to even overseas Pakistanis who actually live and witness that progress is such a mystery to me.

 

[Technics 1210]

Those double standards are called selective diplomacy and looking out for their interests. That is why they have made progress.Why is this such an alien concept to even overseas Pakistanis who actually live and witness that progress is such a mystery to me.

Move along. My point was in reference to those who claim the West has fair laws and processes when clearly it isn't.

Go troll on a pro Indian site.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The EU is a fascist superstate; even today there’s a massive rise of rightwing politics. The European continent itself is responsible for the deadliest world wars and genocide known to mankind. Even with NATO, Europe is goading Russia by parking weapons on the Edge of NATO boundaries with Russia.

When I was at school, we were mostly taught the Holocaust and that Hitler was evil and how Britain won the war etc etc. We were never taught what lead to Nazism (austerity) and that Weimar Germany was the trigger to austerity which was the result of Germans paying the price for WW1 - the irony is Germany never started WW1. Of course the role of Zionists was all but ignored (Harvana agreement etc).

Ken Livingston was suspended from the Labour party after comments he made about Hitler supporting Zionism - which is a documented fact (Harvana agreement), but Zionists want to keep the truth under wraps because if it were up to them they’d criminalise any questioning of Jewish/Zionist history, in the UK. They’ve managed to criminalise elsewhere in Europe where Holocaust denial is a crime.

It’s one rule for Jews/Zionist, and another rule for everyone else.

In terms of the evil done , Europeans are on a level on their own, no other culture of people or region comes close to the bloodshed, rape of nations the Europeans have shown in history.

Schools are also propaganda brainwashing tools. I think they still teach Columbus discovered the US.

Its expanded to even more restrictions on freedom of speech. Now you cannot even criticise Israeli politics or condmen them for shooting at kids who throw stones, because you are a RACIST!!!! ANTISEMITE! ......

 

[Technics 1210]

In terms of the evil done , Europeans are on a level on their own, no other culture of people or region comes close to the bloodshed, rape of nations the Europeans have shown in history.

Schools are also propaganda brainwashing tools. I think they still teach Columbus discovered the US.

Its expanded to even more restrictions on freedom of speech. Now you cannot even criticise Israeli politics or condmen them for shooting at kids who throw stones, because you are a RACIST!!!! ANTISEMITE! ......

The brainwashing is so strong that people living in the West have a problem with what Putin has said.

Yes also criticism of Isreal is deemed anti-semetic by Zionists.

Our history books in school in the West do not teach the dark side of the British Empire. No they teach that Palestinians/Muslims in Isreal are terrorists without the sheer mention the British created the mess in the ME, and it's fine and legal to insult Muslims under the guise of freedom of expression. They add further insult by claiming said right had to be fought for against Hitler etc. Absolute nuts.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The brainwashing is so strong that people living in the West have a problem with what Putin has said.

Yes also criticism of Isreal is deemed anti-semetic by Zionists.

Our history books in school in the West do not teach the dark side of the British Empire. No they teach that Palestinians/Muslims in Isreal are terrorists without the sheer mention the British created the mess in the ME, and it's fine and legal to insult Muslims under the guise of freedom of expression. They add further insult by claiming said right had to be fought for against Hitler etc. Absolute nuts.

Exactly.

I feel also there is an arrogance in such minds stemming from the likes of Darwinism esp social Darwinism where the darker colour people, brown, yellow etc are inferior. Ie. these people are backward, let them kill themselves and let us help on this too.

They also feel they are untouchable.... ie... the British navy travelled into Russian waters..only to be given a stern warning...

These idiots dont understand, its that Putin can wipe out the UK in less than 45 mins...not Saddam..

 

[Technics 1210]

Exactly.

I feel also there is an arrogance in such minds stemming from the likes of Darwinism esp social Darwinism where the darker colour people, brown, yellow etc are inferior. Ie. these people are backward, let them kill themselves and let us help on this too.

They also feel they are untouchable.... ie... the British navy travelled into Russian waters..only to be given a stern warning...

These idiots dont understand, its that Putin can wipe out the UK in less than 45 mins...not Saddam..

The West despise Putin for the simple reason he rebuilt Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Now Russia is back stronger, with stronger alliances, and all the West has in terms of criticism is that Russia doesn't have the same freedoms as that in the West. Well we have seen what unfettered freedom has done to the West.

Now the West will have problem with Putin because he is trying to establish alliances with the Islamic block.

Zionists must be bricking it.

 

[Ahmad-GERMANFC]

Putin is the guy who has helped literally remove existence of Islamic people and culture from entire regions within Russia

 

[Napa]

What constitutes an insult? Denying divinity (atheism/rationality) or criticism of personal conduct or criticism of teachings?

 

[Giannis]

What constitutes an insult? Denying divinity (atheism/rationality) or criticism of personal conduct or criticism of teachings?

Drawing cartoons mocking the prophet, insulting him and using derogatory terms for him in speech.

 

[RexRex]

Drawing cartoons mocking the prophet, insulting him and using derogatory terms for him in speech.

As a matter of law, should people be arrested for drawing cartoons of the prophet ?

 

[sweep_shot]

As a matter of law, should people be arrested for drawing cartoons of the prophet ?

For disrupting societal harmony? Yes. I think so.

This type of offense should fall under disorderly conduct (bare minimum).

 

[James]

As a matter of law, should people be arrested for drawing cartoons of the prophet ?

The context and the intent are very important here. If this is done for the purposes of incitement and mischief, then in many jurisdictions it could be argued to be an illegal act.

 

[Robert]

Who said hate speech laws do not protect Muslims? This Isn't the point. The point is what is considered hate speech in the West? Remember a cartoon of the prophet was deemed absolutely lawful under freedom of expression while causing offence to Muslims around the world.

Again, why doesn't a Western leader make the same statement as Putin?

Because we have freedom of speech. Unlike in Russia where if you say something Putin doesn’t like, then you disappear forever.

In the West our sense of humour subverts and we can make fun of religion. Mel Brooks made fun of Judaism. Monty Python made fun of Judao-Christianity. Dave Allen and Father Ted sent up Catholicism. Jews and Christians took it on the chin, because they knew that their freedom of speech was protected too.

Yet it appears that some Muslims seem to want a special right above others that *their* faith alone cannot be mocked.

Putin is playing you. He says one thing while supporting political groups in this country and across Europe that want to burn the mosques down and deport you. Don’t be fooled.

 

[Robert]

Offensive cartoon of the Prophet is acceptable under freedom of expression meanwhile the very mention of Harvana agreement is deemed anti-Semitic (Ken Livingston was suspended).

Welcome to the double standards of the West.

Because Livingstone didn’t understand what he was talking about, took history out of context and made a deeply offensive statement.

The Holocaust is unique in human history, some of the survivors are still with us, and one must speak of it with understanding and sensitivity. Livingstone was clumsy in his speech at a time when antisemitism had taken root in Labour. Livingstone at least had the grace to apologise to the Jewish community for the offence he gave.

 

[Technics 1210]

Because Livingstone didn’t understand what he was talking about, took history out of context and made a deeply offensive statement.

The Holocaust is unique in human history, some of the survivors are still with us, and one must speak of it with understanding and sensitivity. Livingstone was clumsy in his speech at a time when antisemitism had taken root in Labour. Livingstone at least had the grace to apologise to the Jewish community for the offence he gave.

Oh so he caused offence and was insensitive so was suspended for anti-Semitism. Where's the Western sense of humour and free speech when it comes to Jews?

The Holocaust is not unique; plenty of example of genocide spanning human history. You have just been fooled into believing a Jewish life is worth more than any other life.

 

[Technics 1210]

Because we have freedom of speech. Unlike in Russia where if you say something Putin doesn’t like, then you disappear forever.

In the West our sense of humour subverts and we can make fun of religion. Mel Brooks made fun of Judaism. Monty Python made fun of Judao-Christianity. Dave Allen and Father Ted sent up Catholicism. Jews and Christians took it on the chin, because they knew that their freedom of speech was protected too.

Yet it appears that some Muslims seem to want a special right above others that *their* faith alone cannot be mocked.

Putin is playing you. He says one thing while supporting political groups in this country and across Europe that want to burn the mosques down and deport you. Don’t be fooled.

Who has asked for a special right? And have you seen Citizen Khan? Just one of many comedy shows that mock Muslims. No riots or revolt by Muslims.

You obviously believe religion should be mocked under freedom of expression because you are an Athiest. At the same time you defend Livingston's suspension because you believe he caused offence to Jews. You don't think mocking the prophet of Islam would cause offence to Muslims?

Can you provide evidence of where Putin wants to burn mosques and deport Muslims?

 

[Robert]

Exactly.

I feel also there is an arrogance in such minds stemming from the likes of Darwinism esp social Darwinism where the darker colour people, brown, yellow etc are inferior. Ie. these people are backward, let them kill themselves and let us help on this too.

They also feel they are untouchable.... ie... the British navy travelled into Russian waters..only to be given a stern warning...

These idiots dont understand, its that Putin can wipe out the UK in less than 45 mins...not Saddam..

Hark at you fawn at the despot’s feet because he throws you a bone. Russian waters, indeed! The RN seek to keep international waters open, not let despots use them as a private lake. The “stern warning” was ignored, as it should be.

You are highly critical of UK foreign policy. As a British citizen that is your right. But try criticising Russian foreign policy from inside Russia. What do you think will happen to you?

Go ahead and avoid answering the awkward question, as you always do.

 

[Technics 1210]

In Russia you might disappear for criticising the government, but in the West you might end up in prison for exposing the government (Assange). Same difference.

Still scratching my head on how causing offence to Jews is deemed anti-semetic since causing offence doesn't constitute to racial discrimination. Yet causing offence to Muslims is game under freedom of speech/expression and not Islamophobia? Hmmm.

 

[Robert]

Who has asked for a special right? And have you seen Citizen Khan? Just one of many comedy shows that mock Muslims. No riots or revolt by Muslims.

You obviously believe religion should be mocked under freedom of expression because you are an Athiest. At the same time you defend Livingston's suspension because you believe he caused offence to Jews. You don't think mocking the prophet of Islam would cause offence to Muslims?

Can you provide evidence of where Putin wants to burn mosques and deport Muslims?

I haven’t seen said programme due to the bad reviews it got on PP. Did it actually mock Islam or just Muslims?

He blew up enough mosques and killed enough Muslims in Chechnya. But I was taking of the far right groups in the UK who would burn the mosques and deport the Muslims that he supports in order to turn us against each other and destabilise our society.

Atheist doesn’t fit me. Areligious, yes. I put no trust in a faith someone else wrote. I follow my own system. People can say what they like to me, I don’t try to raise a legal protection for what I believe. I might stop talking to them, at worst.

Livingstone didn’t mock anyone’s prophet, he made an inaccurate and uncontextual statement about arguably the worst man in history allegedly trying to “help” some of the six million that he actually murdered by industrial process. That caused deep offence.

Not “should be mocked”. That we should have the right to mock. We don’t have to apply the right. See rights vs responsibility further up the thread.

It seems that everyone approving Putin’s comment on this thread would like the special right that *their* prophet is immune from mockery - or rather, that their feelings not be hurt. Or am I wrong - are they also arguing that Guru Nanak and Siddhartha should not be mocked either?

 

[Robert]

In Russia you might disappear for criticising the government, but in the West you might end up in prison for exposing the government (Assange). Same difference.

Still scratching my head on how causing offence to Jews is deemed anti-semetic since causing offence doesn't constitute to racial discrimination. Yet causing offence to Muslims is game under freedom of speech/expression and not Islamophobia? Hmmm.

Assange faces legal process. Worst case for him is life imprisonment.

He doesn’t just vanish never to be seen again like Russian dissidents do.

 

[Robert]

Oh so he caused offence and was insensitive so was suspended for anti-Semitism. Where's the Western sense of humour and free speech when it comes to Jews?

The Holocaust is not unique; plenty of example of genocide spanning human history. You have just been fooled into believing a Jewish life is worth more than any other life.

I refer you to Mel Brooks, Seinfeld, Sarah Silverman and such. Jewish comedy is more common in the USA than the UK.

The Holocaust is unique in that a continent-wide rail network with death factories is unique. There have been plenty of other genocides, but no death factories before or since.

 

[Technics 1210]

I haven’t seen said programme due to the bad reviews it got on PP. Did it actually mock Islam or just Muslims?

He blew up enough mosques and killed enough Muslims in Chechnya. But I was taking of the far right groups in the UK who would burn the mosques and deport the Muslims that he supports in order to turn us against each other and destabilise our society.

Atheist doesn’t fit me. Areligious, yes. I put no trust in a faith someone else wrote. I follow my own system. People can say what they like to me, I don’t try to raise a legal protection for what I believe. I might stop talking to them, at worst.

Livingstone didn’t mock anyone’s prophet, he made an inaccurate and uncontextual statement about arguably the worst man in history allegedly trying to “help” some of the six million that he actually murdered by industrial process. That caused deep offence.

Not “should be mocked”. That we should have the right to mock. We don’t have to apply the right. See rights vs responsibility further up the thread.

It seems that everyone approving Putin’s comment on this thread would like the special right that *their* prophet is immune from mockery - or rather, that their feelings not be hurt. Or am I wrong - are they also arguing that Guru Nanak and Siddhartha should not be mocked either?

An inaccurate and contextual statement by Livingston amounts to anti-Semitism? How?

The only special right is that for the Jews. You clearly believe Livingston's comments were anti-Semitic and he did the graceful thing by apologising to the Jewish community. Do you think Charlie Hebdo's cartoon mocking the prophet of Islam was Islamophobic and Charlie Hebdo should apologise for causing offence to Muslims around the world?

Rights vs responsibility? You have insinuated that Muslims should 'take it on the chin' since other religions are mocked. What responsibility are you refering to?

I asked you multiple times in this thread, why hasn't any Western leader said the same as Putin has? I mean if its really down to rights vs. responsibilty, what is stopping Western leaders in teaching its citizens responsibilty with freedom of expression?

As for Putin burning mosques and deporting Muslims, I don't think you have any evidence of this happening in Russia. As for Chechnya, the 1st war took place before Putin, the second war was purley down to assimilation with Russia. Putin's motive was not to destroy Islam in Russia, but was to regain the land lost after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

 

[Technics 1210]

I refer you to Mel Brooks, Seinfeld, Sarah Silverman and such. Jewish comedy is more common in the USA than the UK.

The Holocaust is unique in that a continent-wide rail network with death factories is unique. There have been plenty of other genocides, but no death factories before or since.

Seinfeld, Silverman etc are Jewish! That's why they get away with it and USA have freedom of speech, we have freedom of expression.

Bosnian genocide. Heard of it? It was ethnic cleansing based on the motive of hatered towards Muslims. Factories doesn't make the Holocaust unique.