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Vladimir Putin signs law that could keep him in the Kremlin till 2036 [Post #146]

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...nuclear-weapons-to-counter-west-idUSKCN1GD514

MOSCOW (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin announced an array of new nuclear weapons on Thursday, in one of his most bellicose speeches in years, saying they could hit almost any point in the world and evade a U.S.-built missile shield.

Putin was speaking ahead of an election on March 18 that polls indicate he should win easily. He said a nuclear attack on any of Moscow’s allies would be regarded as an attack on Russia itself and draw an immediate response.

It was unclear if he had a particular Russian ally, such as Syria, in mind, but his comments looked like a warning to Washington not to use tactical battlefield nuclear weapons.

His remarks were greeted with scepticism in Washington, where officials cast doubt on whether Russia has added any new capabilities to its nuclear arsenal beyond those already known to the U.S. military and intelligence agencies.

The Pentagon, which recently announced a nuclear policy revamp based partly on the bellicose posture from Moscow, said it was not surprised by Putin’s presentation.

“We’ve been watching Russia for a long time. We’re not surprised,” Pentagon spokeswoman Dana White said.

“These weapons that are discussed have been in development a very long time,” she told a news briefing, without addressing any of Putin’s specific claims of new capabilities.

John Rood, U.S. under secretary of defense for policy, declined to comment on U.S. intelligence on Russian capabilities.

But, addressing a forum in Washington, Rood generally played down Putin’s presentation, saying: “I think it’s broadly consistent with things that have been stated before (by) Russian officials.”

Putin has often used militaristic rhetoric to mobilize support and buttress his narrative that Russia is under siege from the West. His 2014 annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea boosted his ratings to a record high and he has cast his military intervention in Syria as a proud moment for Moscow.

On Thursday, he sought to back his rhetoric with video clips of what he said were some of the new missiles. The images were projected onto a giant screen behind him at a conference hall in central Moscow where he was addressing Russia’s political elite.

“They have not succeeded in holding Russia back,” said Putin, referring to the West, which he said had ignored Moscow in the past, but would now have to sit up and listen.

“Now they need to take account of a new reality and understand that everything I have said today is not a bluff.”

Among weapons that Putin said were either in development or ready was a new intercontinental ballistic missile “with a practically unlimited range” able to attack via the North and South Poles and bypass any missile defense systems.

Putin also spoke of a small nuclear-powered engine that could be fitted to what he said were low-flying, highly maneuverable cruise missiles, giving them a practically unlimited range.

The new engine meant Russia was able to make a new type of weapon - nuclear missiles powered by nuclear rather than conventional fuel.

“Nothing like it in the world exists,” Putin told the audience. “At some point it will probably appear (elsewhere) but by that time our guys will have devised something else.”

Other new super weapons he listed included underwater nuclear drones, a supersonic weapon and a laser weapon.

In one of his video clip demos, a weapon appeared to be hovering over what looked like a map of the state of Florida.

The audience, made up of Russian lawmakers and other leading figures, frequently stood up and applauded his presentation, which culminated with the Russian national anthem being played.

Earlier in the speech, he had struck a very different tone, ordering officials to halve the number of Russians living in poverty by sharply boosting social and infrastructure spending in an obvious pre-election pitch to voters.

NATO MEASURES “USELESS”

Putin, who has dominated his country’s political landscape for the last 18 years, said the technological advances meant that NATO’s build-up on Russia’s borders and the roll-out of a U.S. anti-missile system would be rendered useless.

“I hope that everything that was said today will sober up any potential aggressor,” said Putin.

“Unfriendly steps towards Russia such as the deployment of the (U.S.) anti-missile system and of NATO infrastructure nearer our borders and such like, from a military point of view, will become ineffective.”
Steps to contain Russia would also become unjustifiably expensive and pointless, he forecast.

Russian Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu said in a statement after the speech that the new weapons Putin had unveiled meant that NATO’s missile defense shield, in Poland, Romania and Alaska and planned elements in South Korea and Japan was like an umbrella that was full of holes.

“I don’t know why they would now buy such an ‘umbrella’,” Shoigu said, referring to Seoul and Tokyo.
NATO declined immediate comment.

The United States has long asserted that U.S. missile defenses are incapable of halting a large-scale attack by a major nuclear power, like Russia or China, due in part to the limited number of U.S. missile interceptors.

Instead, the technology is aimed at what the U.S. views as “rogue” states, like Iran or North Korea.
“They know very well that it’s not about them. Our missile defense has never been about them,” White said.

She added that the U.S. focus in addressing Russia’s nuclear modernization was strengthening America’s own nuclear forces to serve as a deterrent.

Lisbeth Gronlund, senior scientist and co-director of the Global Security Program of the Union of Concerned Scientists, said Putin’s announcement of a missile with a nuclear-powered engine, even if true, would change little when it came to the Russian threat since Russia already has large numbers of ICBMs.

Douglas Barrie, a senior fellow for military aerospace at the IISS think-tank in London, said he was skeptical about some of Putin’s statements.

“It’s a mix of things that are still in the lab, things that are in tests, and things we knew they had. We’ll have to unpick a lot of this to sort out what is really new.”

Putin also voiced concerns about a new U.S. nuclear doctrine, saying Russia’s own doctrine was defensive and only envisaged the use of nuclear weapons in response to an attack.

Russia has repeatedly said it is keen to hold talks with the United States about the balance of strategic nuclear power and Putin put Washington and other nuclear powers on notice.

“We will view any use of nuclear weapons against Russia or its allies, be it of small, medium or any force, as a nuclear attack on our country,” he said.

“Our response will be immediate. Nobody should have any doubts about that.”

Putin said that Russia did not plan to attack anyone, however. Russia’s growing military might was a guarantee of world peace, he said, designed to preserve a strategic balance of power on the planet.
 
Putin is a Don.

Without doubt the most powerful man on the planet right now.

Consider the defence budget of Russia, compared with NATO. It's peanuts.

Putin annexed Crimea, and world powers couldn't do a thing.
 
They were less dangerous when they were communists, that ideology was at least stale and undynamic.
 
Russia is stuffed with so much of nuclear stockpile that even it drops it all of it in its own territory still good enough to turn the whole world into a nuclear wasteland.
 
For so long as mankind will try to control each other by force instead of reason, more and more powerful people will keep taking over our world and in this process humanity will keep losing its status till it is like wild animals in a jungle where nothing is safe. That is the time when people will turn to real power and look for guidance seeing no end to their misery. So till then embrace for more and more, bigger and bigger troubles in the world by animals in human shapes.

If anyone is not happy with what is going on then that person should start studying the quran in depth till one understands it properly and then one will have to share it with others in order to educate them out of their ignorance. Only then such people will arise in this world who will have well being of humanity in their hearts and minds. Till then all can carry on as they like and wait for their turns as they arrive.

God did not make this world for entertainment of mankind rather he had a purpose and plan in his mind for making this world sop people better try to know that purpose and plan if they truly want to live a great life worth living in this world. The rest is nothing but waste of time.
 
For so long as mankind will try to control each other by force instead of reason, more and more powerful people will keep taking over our world and in this process humanity will keep losing its status till it is like wild animals in a jungle where nothing is safe.

Admirable sentiments, but rather at odds with your chosen name. The Mughal Empire was founded by invaders, who kept waging wars of conquest and expanding, till they started losing and thereafter kept contracting.
 
It’s so sad that we have plunged back into Cold War. I thought Europe and Russia were getting safer, but the Nationalists are winning
 
Admirable sentiments, but rather at odds with your chosen name. The Mughal Empire was founded by invaders, who kept waging wars of conquest and expanding, till they started losing and thereafter kept contracting.

Mughal can be his real name. So i am not sure about the connection you are trying to establish.
 
It’s so sad that we have plunged back into Cold War. I thought Europe and Russia were getting safer, but the Nationalists are winning

Seems like we are going in cycles.
 
Putin is a Don.

Without doubt the most powerful man on the planet right now.

Consider the defence budget of Russia, compared with NATO. It's peanuts.

Putin annexed Crimea, and world powers couldn't do a thing.

Yes, Russia’s defence budget is peanuts. They are spending at 5% but remember they have a very low GDP, less even that Britain’s let alone the combined NATO states. But they have the advantage of centralisation, and their new hardware is very good. Now they are a capitalist state they have caught up with the West technologically.

NATO’s problem is cohesion. Declaring Article 5 is problematic at best. Putin is very good at asymmetric warfare and propaganda, aggressive below a threshold which will trigger Article 5.

But I am glad that NATO is standing up for freedom and democracy by turning the Baltic states into a fortress. They have been under the Russian yoke and don’t want to go back.
 
Yes, Russia’s defence budget is peanuts. They are spending at 5% but remember they have a very low GDP, less even that Britain’s let alone the combined NATO states. But they have the advantage of centralisation, and their new hardware is very good. Now they are a capitalist state they have caught up with the West technologically.

NATO’s problem is cohesion. Declaring Article 5 is problematic at best. Putin is very good at asymmetric warfare and propaganda, aggressive below a threshold which will trigger Article 5.

But I am glad that NATO is standing up for freedom and democracy by turning the Baltic states into a fortress. They have been under the Russian yoke and don’t want to go back.

The thing is Russia were allies with the British during both world wars, why have we come to despise Russia, I think is more down to the USA propaganda. I can understand Putin’s concern when NATO park their weapons close to the Russian border. USA as you now almost led us into World War 3 when Russian parked their missiles in Cuba.

When Israel annexed parts of Lebanon it was accepted by the international community, when Russia did the same with Crimea, Russia is the enemy.

As always, there are 2 sides of the coin, but I think the world is waking up to the reality of what USA is. Blaming absolutely everything on Russia is getting old now. Trumps election win, Brexit, or even the weather.

It’s better if Europe stopped playing second fiddle to the USA, and concentrated on peace with its bordering nations.
 
Putin fills my heart with Pride. Have been weak and timid in my personal life, so I have a strong craving for leaders who are strong willed and charismatic even if somewhat cruel. Love you Putin.
 
George W Bush doesn't get as much criticism he deserves for ripping up the ABM Treaty (which was signed by a Republican President) in 2001 which played a large part in antagonising Russia.

However I find the love in for Putin amongst some Muslims absurd - you can be both AGAINST NATO/Western military expansionism and AGAINST Putin's hard right-wing nationalism.

There is some evidence that Putin and the KGB had a hand in the 1999 Apartment Bombings which killed 293 people in order to justify military action in Chechnya. It never has been properly independently investigated.

Recently, Bosnian Serb separatists have received arms shipments and training from Russian-trained mercenaries. Note that Russia vetoed a UN resolution describing the Srebrenica atrocity as a genocide. Russian intelligence is also reported to have supported a coup against the PM of Montenegro two years ago with the plan to use mercenaries to assassinate him.

Their operatives stoked anti-Muslim sentiments in the US through their online trolls that spread disinformation throughout the 2016 election which Robert Mueller has confirmed with his recent indictments. At home, the Russian state has killed journalists and political opponents - now you may think economic stability supersedes political rights but its not a binary choice - citizens in every country are entitled to both.

To sum up, Putin deserves praise for bringing political and economic stability, but don't whitewash his record. EVERYONE should be held to the same standard. If its the US meddling in a foreign country or Russia - apply your values consistently.
 
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The thing is Russia were allies with the British during both world wars, why have we come to despise Russia

Because they have been training nuclear missiles on us since 1960. Because they have resumed probing our airspace after decades of hope of peace. Because they carry out assassinations on British streets. Because they subvert our democratic processes.
 
Because they have been training nuclear missiles on us since 1960. Because they have resumed probing our airspace after decades of hope of peace. Because they carry out assassinations on British streets. Because they subvert our democratic processes.

And USA have not?
 
Putin fills my heart with Pride. Have been weak and timid in my personal life, so I have a strong craving for leaders who are strong willed and charismatic even if somewhat cruel. Love you Putin.

What you are basically saying is you need a big tough fascist bully to follow, in order to feel good.

Don’t be someone’s running dog. Be your own man!
 
And USA have not?


Clearly not in the first three cases. They have always supported us.

The US Govt was not involved in the subversion of the Brexit vote but American billionaires with links to the Russian gangster-capitalists were.
 
What you are basically saying is you need a big tough fascist bully to follow, in order to feel good.

Don’t be someone’s running dog. Be your own man!

Thank you for calling me a dog. I will still respect you.

Can't put it into words how I feel when I watch Putin's videos on youtube, where he walks out of his limousine and walks with the swag of a lion. That gait of his is soo drool worthy.
 
Clearly not in the first three cases. They have always supported us.

The US Govt was not involved in the subversion of the Brexit vote but American billionaires with links to the Russian gangster-capitalists were.

Supported us? USA refused to enter WW1 and WW2, Russia helped us out!

As for subversion of votes, why blame the Russians? Could it be possible that Russians did not interfere, and that the political class in the UK misjudged the electorate? Wouldn't be the first time. Same applies to Trump's election.
 
George W Bush doesn't get as much criticism he deserves for ripping up the ABM Treaty (which was signed by a Republican President) in 2001 which played a large part in antagonising Russia.

However I find the love in for Putin amongst some Muslims absurd - you can be both AGAINST NATO/Western military expansionism and AGAINST Putin's hard right-wing nationalism.

There is some evidence that Putin and the KGB had a hand in the 1999 Apartment Bombings which killed 293 people in order to justify military action in Chechnya. It never has been properly independently investigated.

Recently, Bosnian Serb separatists have received arms shipments and training from Russian-trained mercenaries. Note that Russia vetoed a UN resolution describing the Srebrenica atrocity as a genocide. Russian intelligence is also reported to have supported a coup against the PM of Montenegro two years ago with the plan to use mercenaries to assassinate him.

Their operatives stoked anti-Muslim sentiments in the US through their online trolls that spread disinformation throughout the 2016 election which Robert Mueller has confirmed with his recent indictments. At home, the Russian state has killed journalists and political opponents - now you may think economic stability supersedes political rights but its not a binary choice - citizens in every country are entitled to both.

To sum up, Putin deserves praise for bringing political and economic stability, but don't whitewash his record. EVERYONE should be held to the same standard. If its the US meddling in a foreign country or Russia - apply your values consistently.

You are expecting Putin to be a saint while the US, Germany, UK, France etc. keep trying to weaken Russia.

The democratically elected Ukrainian President was driven from office by street mobs that had neo-Nazis and the support of the Western countries. Putin could have taken that lying down or he could have retaliated. He did what was best for his country in that situation.
 
The thing is Russia were allies with the British during both world wars, why have we come to despise Russia, I think is more down to the USA propaganda. I can understand Putin’s concern when NATO park their weapons close to the Russian border. USA as you now almost led us into World War 3 when Russian parked their missiles in Cuba.

When Israel annexed parts of Lebanon it was accepted by the international community, when Russia did the same with Crimea, Russia is the enemy.

As always, there are 2 sides of the coin, but I think the world is waking up to the reality of what USA is. Blaming absolutely everything on Russia is getting old now. Trumps election win, Brexit, or even the weather.

It’s better if Europe stopped playing second fiddle to the USA, and concentrated on peace with its bordering nations.


I think this aspect is important, first you have to look after your own neighbourhood and then worry about further afield. Problem with the US has always been they want to have their foot in every corner of the world. Communism might have been a genuine world threat half a century ago, now it seems to me Russia's ambition is more in it's own region, they probably see western interference in the Crimea as stepping on their toes.
 
He should worry about providing ‘invincible’ vehicles to his mercenaries in Ukraine because pretty soon Ukraine will getting Jevlin ATGMs. This is not enough to protect Ukraine though, more help should be provided to Ukraine so they could reclaim Eastern Ukraine.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. State Department has approved the possible sale of Javelin anti-tank missiles and launch units to Ukraine at an estimated cost of $47 million, the Pentagon said on Thursday.
The United States said in December it would provide Ukraine with defensive weapons.

Since Moscow’s annexation of Crimea in 2014, Ukraine and Russia have been at loggerheads over a war in eastern Ukraine between pro-Russian separatists and Ukrainian government forces that has killed more than 10,000 people in three years.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said in December the weapons would be used to protect Ukrainian soldiers and civilians, but Russia said the U.S. decision would encourage those who support the conflict in Ukraine to use force.

The Pentagon said in a statement on Thursday the proposed sale would not alter the military balance in the region.

“The Javelin system will help Ukraine build its long-term defense capacity to defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity in order to meet its national defense requirements,” it said.

Ukraine’s government has asked to buy 210 Javelin missiles and 37 Javelin Command Launch Units, the statement said. The prime contractor will be a joint venture of Raytheon Co and Lockheed Martin Corp, it added.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-defense-ukraine/u-s-approves-possible-sale-of-anti-tank-missiles-to-ukraine-idUSKCN1GD6DK
 
You are expecting Putin to be a saint while the US, Germany, UK, France etc. keep trying to weaken Russia.

There are no saints, only countries looking out for their interests. That's why we shouldn't hold these world leaders on pedestals but criticise objectively, not only western leaders but Putin as well. I don't want America or Russia meddling in other countries' elections or sponsoring coups.

The democratically elected Ukrainian President was driven from office by street mobs that had neo-Nazis and the support of the Western countries.

Yanukovych's own party turned against him. Yanukovych abused state funds to personally enrich himself and his cronies, and the eastern regions like the Donbass where he has strong support were excessively favoured with economic investment at the expense of the rest of the country. Let's not turn him into a martyr.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-ru...esidence-and-money-trail-that-leads-to-london
http://www.spiegel.de/international...esident-yanukovych-and-his-clan-a-833127.html

Sadly for Ukrainians, the opposition is also mired in corruption.

The problem with analysing Ukraine is there's so much propaganda from both sides that its hard to decipher fact from fiction. I agree there was definitely neo-Nazi presence in the Euromaidan movement, that's been confirmed by many independent sources. But they also included leftists, centrists, students etc who had genuine grievances against the government so we have to avoid generalising. Ukrainian nationalists do include troubling numbers of neo-Nazis but they are also people who point to Ukraine's undeniably terrible abuse by Stalin and want to be free from Russian domination.

Its a deeply divided country between east and west with so many different political factions and complexities for us outsiders to understand so we should avoid reducing the conflict to simply a West vs Russia clash.
 
Supported us? USA refused to enter WW1 and WW2, Russia helped us out!

As for subversion of votes, why blame the Russians? Could it be possible that Russians did not interfere, and that the political class in the UK misjudged the electorate? Wouldn't be the first time. Same applies to Trump's election.

I’ll think you’ll find that all the help was one-way in WW2. We sent every spare tank and plane to Murmansk and lost 85 merchant ships with most of their hands. The USA secured democracy in Europe. Without them it would have stayed under the Nazi or Bolshevik yoke.

No, it isn’t possible. Go on Twitter and have a look. I can spot the Russian trolls a mile off.
 
I’ll think you’ll find that all the help was one-way in WW2. We sent every spare tank and plane to Murmansk and lost 85 merchant ships with most of their hands. The USA secured democracy in Europe. Without them it would have stayed under the Nazi or Bolshevik yoke.

No, it isn’t possible. Go on Twitter and have a look. I can spot the Russian trolls a mile off.

So Russians altered the democratic process via social media? Why can't the West then? I mean, why could the Remain camp not convince the UK to vote remain? But Russians could otherwise?
 
Putin is partly playing to the Russian voters here but he is also a man who walks the walk too. He has said no to Nato taking over Syria and when Nato installed a puppet leader in Ukraine, he came in and took back his land in Crimea. Kiev also belongs to Russia.


Most importantly Putin is needed in this world to provide a balance of power(as he mentioned). Without Russia, Putin and perhaps China, the US would have destroyed most of the planet now.
 
A failed coup in Ukraine by the USA was the catalyst for Putin to annex Crimea.

USA have a history of toppling governments worldwide - Operation Ajax is a good example.
 
A failed coup in Ukraine by the USA was the catalyst for Putin to annex Crimea.
What you are basing the word coup on ?

Yanukovych was removed by parliament and disowned by his OWN party. He was massively corrupt and a thug who looted the state treasury.

Have people lost their critical thinking capacities ? The obvious flaws of the Western press and their governments doesn't make everything RT says as gospel. Use your own judgement.
 
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What you are basing the word coup on ?

Yanukovych was removed by parliament and disowned by his OWN party. He was massively corrupt and a thug who looted the state treasury.

Have people lost their critical thinking capacities ? The obvious flaws of the Western press and their governments doesn't make everything RT says as gospel. Use your own judgement.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/what-americas-coup-in-ukraine-did/5581520

On March 23rd, Gallup headlined “South Sudan, Haiti and Ukraine Lead World in Suffering”, and the Ukrainian part of that can unquestionably be laid at the feet of U.S. President Barack Obama, who in February 2014 imposed upon Ukraine a very bloody coup (see it here), which he and his press misrepresented (and still misrepresent) as being (and still represent as having been) a ‘democratic revolution’, but was nothing of the sort, and actually was instead the start of the Ukrainian dictatorship and the hell that has since destroyed that country, and brought the people there into such misery, it’s now by far the worst in Europe, and nearly tied with the worst in the entire world.

America’s criminal ‘news’ media never even reported the coup, nor that in 2011 the Obama regime began planning for a coup in Ukraine, and that by 1 March 2013 they started organizing it inside the U.S. Embassy there, and that they hired members of Ukraine’s two racist-fascist, or nazi, political parties, Right Sector and Svoboda (which latter had been called the Social Nationalist Party of Ukraine until the CIA advised them to change it to Freedom Party, or “Svoboda” instead), and that in February 2014 they did it (and here’s the 4 February 2014 phone call instructing the U.S. Ambassador whom to place in charge of the new regime when the coup will be completed), under the cover of authentic anti-corruption demonstrations that the Embassy organized on the Maidan Square in Kiev, demonstrations that the criminal U.S. ‘news’ media misrepresented as ‘democracy demonstrations,’ though Ukraine already had democracy (but still lots of corruption, even more than today’s U.S. does, and the pontificating Obama said he was trying to end Ukraine’s corruption — which instead actually soared after his coup there).

The head of the ‘private CIA’ firm Stratfor said it was “the most blatant coup in history” but he couldn’t say that to Americans, because he knows that our press is just a mouthpiece for the regime (just like it was during the lead-up to George W. Bush’s equally unprovoked invasion of Iraq — for which America’s ‘news’ media suffered likewise no penalties).

I do make my own mind up, I do not rely on RT, in the same way I most certainly do not believe a word that comes out of CNN/FOX et al.
 
New Video Evidence of America’s Coup in Ukraine — and What It Means

http://washingtonsblog.com/2015/02/new-video-evidence-americas-coup-ukraine-means.html

New video evidence has been added to the already-conclusive video evidence which shows that the U.S. Government was the controlling power behind the extremely violent and illegal 18-27 February 2014 Ukrainian coup, which overthrew the democratically elected and never legally removed-from-power Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.
 
Global Research - really ? One of the biggest fake news purveyors on the internet is what you're basing your claims on.

A website that pedals conspiracies on the Sandy Hook massacre, vaccines and a whole host of other issues.

I posted other sources including the Guardian.

If you are expecting a mainstream American media to undermine it's government and admit to a coup, then it's wishful thinking.

Anyway, like I said, it would't be the first time the Americans overthrew a government would it?
 
I posted other sources including the Guardian.

If you are expecting a mainstream American media to undermine it's government and admit to a coup, then it's wishful thinking.

Anyway, like I said, it would't be the first time the Americans overthrew a government would it?

A random blog, and Seamus Milne who's an apologist for the old USSR with little/no sources inside Ukraine. Again really ?
 
Let the Putin haters watch this video and tell us that they didn't find their masculinity challenged by the mere sight of Putin..

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/e-zEftm7ZXo?rel=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
1-U1Ko3IWZDMmetkX4oz7jYw.jpg
Here is how all these shoddy “sources” spread their propaganda. There are many more but this a good start. All dedicated to promote Russian interests and conspiracy theories.
 
Okay I see what is happening here. You will not accept any source.

If you feel American's are saints, then we'll we just have to agree to disagree. I guess we will have to wait a couple of decades for the CIA files to be made public, and added to this list : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change

No I don't accept sites like "Global Research" that pedal theories about Sandy Hook being a hoax, that a genocide never happened in Bosnia, nukes were used in Afghanistan, and conspiracies about vaccinations as legitimate news sources.

Nor do random unsourced blogs, or articles from reporters with obvious agendas and biases, represent credible and objective analysis.

I see nothing from Ukranian academics or independent journalists with foreign policy expertise in these posts.

I am not a hypocrite. I will criticise Western militarism abroad AND Russian meddling in other countries affairs unlike you who sees the world in black and white and takes reports that fit your narrative at face value.

I am as sceptical when the Kremlin and RT pushes its agenda as I am when the US media reports its news.

If you think Yanukovych's regime was a model government and that there weren't any legitimate grievances against his misrule, then there isn't anything to debate.
 
No I don't accept sites like "Global Research" that pedal theories about Sandy Hook being a hoax, that a genocide never happened in Bosnia, nukes were used in Afghanistan, and conspiracies about vaccinations as legitimate news sources.

Nor do random unsourced blogs, or articles from reporters with obvious agendas and biases, represent credible and objective analysis.

I see nothing from Ukranian academics or independent journalists with foreign policy expertise in these posts.

I am not a hypocrite. I will criticise Western militarism abroad AND Russian meddling in other countries affairs unlike you who sees the world in black and white and takes reports that fit your narrative at face value.

You remind me of the people who refused to believe USA had a hand in overthrowing the democratically elected leader of Iran and were fed lies that Iran was against Western values and freedom, clearing the way on why Iran resents USA.

The Guardian article is not credible because the author is a USSR apologist. This is your opinion.
Like I said we just have to agree to disagree. You cannot sit here and pretend America does not have a history of trying to overthrowing governments.

I am as sceptical when the Kremlin and RT pushes its agenda as I am when the US media reports its news.

If you think Yanukovych's regime was a model government and that there weren't any legitimate grievances against his misrule, then there isn't anything to debate.

Are you going to also claim that USA had no hand in the Arab Spring?

I do wonder what you consider to be a credible source these days.
 
[MENTION=146465]R3verse Swing[/MENTION] - I'll give you a book recommendation if you want an objective analysis of Ukrainian history and recent events.

The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine by Serhii Plokhy, a professor of Ukrainian history at Harvard. It'll provide you with better sourced information than Global Research.

If a book is out of the question - here's a Youtube interview with him - https://youtu.be/aiXzGPKP5-Y
 
No I don't accept sites like "Global Research" that pedal theories about Sandy Hook being a hoax, that a genocide never happened in Bosnia, nukes were used in Afghanistan, and conspiracies about vaccinations as legitimate news sources.

Nor do random unsourced blogs, or articles from reporters with obvious agendas and biases, represent credible and objective analysis.

I see nothing from Ukranian academics or independent journalists with foreign policy expertise in these posts.

I am not a hypocrite. I will criticise Western militarism abroad AND Russian meddling in other countries affairs unlike you who sees the world in black and white and takes reports that fit your narrative at face value.

I am as sceptical when the Kremlin and RT pushes its agenda as I am when the US media reports its news.

If you think Yanukovych's regime was a model government and that there weren't any legitimate grievances against his misrule, then there isn't anything to debate.

Out of interest, can you name a 3 UK/US/European media sources with regards to Russia you think are fair and accurate?
 
[MENTION=146465]R3verse Swing[/MENTION] - I'll give you a book recommendation if you want an objective analysis of Ukrainian history and recent events.

The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine by Serhii Plokhy, a professor of Ukrainian history at Harvard. It'll provide you with better sourced information than Global Research.

If a book is out of the question - here's a Youtube interview with him - https://youtu.be/aiXzGPKP5-Y

Thanks, but Global Research was just one source. A book doesn't change the fact US tried to meddle in Ukraine's business.

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957
 
You remind me of the people who refused to believe USA had a hand in overthrowing the democratically elected leader of Iran and were fed lies that Iran was against Western values and freedom, clearing the way on why Iran resents USA.

The Guardian article is not credible because the author is a USSR apologist. This is your opinion.
Like I said we just have to agree to disagree. You cannot sit here and pretend America does not have a history of trying to overthrowing governments.



Are you going to also claim that USA had no hand in the Arab Spring?

I do wonder what you consider to be a credible source these days.

Please don't invent strawmen, or put words in my mouth. I've posted about US meddling in the Middle East on many occasions including in the 1950s in Iran. Infact I wrote extensively about it here about 18 months ago:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ve-view-of-Barack-Obama&p=8947127#post8947127

However bringing that into a conversation about Ukraine is irrelevant and shows you're twisting the news to suit your narrative. Do you accept Yanukovych was removed by the Ukrainian parliament and his own party ? Do you not accept Yanukovych was a massively corrupt individual against whom there was legitimate opposition ?

Its simple - I subject the Kremlin and RT to the same level of scepticism as I would Western governments and media here. I am not going to take the word of a Government that kills journalists and actively spreads disinformation online at face value like I wouldn't take at face value words from a Government that claimed Iraq had WMDs.

But it seems you are incapable of accepting there can be more than one bad actor in the world so I'm not sure what the purpose is of taking this argument any further.
 
The thing is, the Western sources do not matter if they follow the Anti-Russian narrative. It’s no big secret who controls most of the Western media. Anyone who does not follow the Western narrative is either a tin foil hat conspiracy theorist, or the enemy of the state – because mainstream media has never lied, nor do they have an agenda.

Thank god for the likes of Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning for keeping it real.
 
Out of interest, can you name a 3 UK/US/European media sources with regards to Russia you think are fair and accurate?

There's more than 3 if you look for them.

OpenDemocracy, AJ English, Patrick Cockburn of The Independent (more renowned today for his fantastic Middle Eastern reporting but he used to be a Russia correspondent for the FT for many years too), The Guardian (other than Seamas Milne), and The Conversation.
 
Please don't invent strawmen, or put words in my mouth. I've posted about US meddling in the Middle East on many occasions including in the 1950s in Iran. Infact I wrote extensively about it here about 18 months ago:

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ve-view-of-Barack-Obama&p=8947127#post8947127

However bringing that into a conversation about Ukraine is irrelevant and shows you're twisting the news to suit your narrative. Do you accept Yanukovych was removed by the Ukrainian parliament and his own party ? Do you not accept Yanukovych was a massively corrupt individual against whom there was legitimate opposition ?

Its simple - I subject the Kremlin and RT to the same level of scepticism as I would Western governments and media here. I am not going to take the word of a Government that kills journalists and actively spreads disinformation online at face value like I wouldn't take at face value words from a Government that claimed Iraq had WMDs.

But it seems you are incapable of accepting there can be more than one bad actor in the world so I'm not sure what the purpose is of taking this argument any further.

I did not put any words in your mouth. You dismissed the Guardian as a source because in your opinion the author is a USSR apologist. Yet you have the gall to claim I am incapable of accepting?

The history of USA meddling in other governments is relevant. I cited a list above. I do not trust USA one bit. USA has done more harm to the UK and the world, than Russia. No one is claiming Russia doesn’t have its fault, but to suggest there is no possibility of USA overthrowing the Ukrainian government is just naivety at its finest.

Agree with Yanukovych, but what does this change? Yanukovych's own party turned against him? What does this prove? Two sides to every story. USA has never funded or supported incumbent or opposition government, right? South America is a blinding example!

You will not take the word of a government that kills journalists? Fine. But will you take the word of the Western government who have litany of political assassinations under their belt? Please stop pretending Western media does not actively spread disinformation either.

I have already mentioned twice now, we just have to agree to disagree. Sorry if you thought we were having a debate, I did try but you dismissed every single source for one reason or another.
 
The anti-Russian narrative is getting boring now. It’s clear the West will blame Russia for everything. The latest being Russians were responsible for Trump’s election win (because Clinton had nothing to do with it right?), and Brexit was also because of Russians! Yes all 17.4 MILLION who voted for Brexit were incapable of making their own mind up and resorted to Facebook and Twitter for help! The same media that was littered with posts and articles supporting Remain! Had nothing to do with personal experiences or austerity, nope. Wouldn't be the first time the British government were disconnected with reality and the electorate. Did I mention the 2015 General Election was also the fault of Russians? How could the UK Polls get it so wrong?

Essentially, when a result doesn’t manifest as expected in the West, someone is to blame. Russia is it. The West will not actually dig deep to look at why, nor look at history for clues.

The latest circus show in town is Robert Mueller’s case. The best he has is Tax evasion and money laundering!
 
So Russians altered the democratic process via social media? Why can't the West then? I mean, why could the Remain camp not convince the UK to vote remain? But Russians could otherwise?

Remain had the wrong tactics. They were using old media only. They applied a Project Fear which was never going to work. They should have explained the EU and how it benefits Britons.

Conversely the Russian trolls, allied to British fascists armed with American Big Data, pushed the xenophobia buttons.
 
Let the Putin haters watch this video and tell us that they didn't find their masculinity challenged by the mere sight of Putin..

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/e-zEftm7ZXo?rel=0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

He is too short to challenge anyone's masculinity.
 
Thank you for calling me a dog. I will still respect you.

Can't put it into words how I feel when I watch Putin's videos on youtube, where he walks out of his limousine and walks with the swag of a lion. That gait of his is soo drool worthy.

Oh come on man, running dog means the little fascists that follow the big fascist. Like the sneaky kids at school who cling onto the bullies so they are not themselves made a target.

I would suggest a different male role model, such as Nelson Mandela who was strong but also kind.
 
Remain had the wrong tactics. They were using old media only. They applied a Project Fear which was never going to work. They should have explained the EU and how it benefits Britons.

Conversely the Russian trolls, allied to British fascists armed with American Big Data, pushed the xenophobia buttons.

Farage did a pretty good job of pressing the xenophobic buttons himself. Immigration was an issue for some years, before the referendum. Remain did a good job too by reminding us that anyone voting to leave the EU was a racist/xenophobe on all sorts of media, LBC included.

You do not think the 350M NHS slogan on the bus did anything to sway leave voters? Or the multiple terrorist attacks leading up to the vote? Or the refuge crisis in the EU? 17.4 Million voters falling for Russian propaganda just sounds too good to be true.
 
Farage did a pretty good job of pressing the xenophobic buttons himself. Immigration was an issue for some years, before the referendum. Remain did a good job too by reminding us that anyone voting to leave the EU was a racist/xenophobe on all sorts of media, LBC included.

You do not think the 350M NHS slogan on the bus did anything to sway leave voters? Or the multiple terrorist attacks leading up to the vote? Or the refuge crisis in the EU? 17.4 Million voters falling for Russian propaganda just sounds too good to be true.

Farage is one of the fascists I mentioned.

Not all Leavers are racist. But all racists are Leavers.

You’re showing a bit of digital thinking here. Outside maths and coding, things don’t happen for just one reason. The Russia troll houses would have had some effect on floating voters. Just half a million votes was the winning margin.
 
That sarmat missile looks like a pretty deadly beast

I wish we could have something like that it would be a game changer for us
 
Farage is one of the fascists I mentioned.

Not all Leavers are racist. But all racists are Leavers.

You’re showing a bit of digital thinking here. Outside maths and coding, things don’t happen for just one reason. The Russia troll houses would have had some effect on floating voters. Just half a million votes was the winning margin.

The difference was about 1.26 Million votes, about 4%.

Constituency level, 406 voted to Leave, 242 Remain.

So even if the Russians trolls did influence the vote, it wouldn't have made any difference, Leave still would've won.

The Bus, Immigrants, Refugees, and Terror Attacks had nothing to do with the Russians, and the aforementioned issues played a fundamental role in people voting Leave.
 
Putin fills my heart with Pride. Have been weak and timid in my personal life, so I have a strong craving for leaders who are strong willed and charismatic even if somewhat cruel. Love you Putin.

Admiring a cold blooded killer, you should take back your comment.
 
Let’s get real. Had Remain won, then no one would’ve blamed the Russians. Had Clinton won, then no one would’ve blamed the Russians, nor would there be an investigation.

It’s a simple case of sour grapes and ignorance.

History reveals that austerity leads to major change, and and uprising.

Who said History was bunk?
 
[utube]ZZ-Kwr0VFUE[/utube]

Quote - "He has an approval rating above 80% in Russia, and this is according to American polls"
 
The difference was about 1.26 Million votes, about 4%.

Constituency level, 406 voted to Leave, 242 Remain.

So even if the Russians trolls did influence the vote, it wouldn't have made any difference, Leave still would've won.

The Bus, Immigrants, Refugees, and Terror Attacks had nothing to do with the Russians, and the aforementioned issues played a fundamental role in people voting Leave.

I would argue that the refugees have a lot to do with the Russians. Putin is displacing Syrian refugees to put strain on the EU states, stir up the racism and get the fascists marching. It has worked brilliantly.
 
I would argue that the refugees have a lot to do with the Russians. Putin is displacing Syrian refugees to put strain on the EU states, stir up the racism and get the fascists marching. It has worked brilliantly.

It was Merkal that decided a million refugees in the EU would be a good idea, and not just from Syria, but Afghanistan and Iraq too. The later 2 are 100% the result of USA/UK.

Do you not think the possibility of Turkey joining the EU also played a part?

At the end of the day if people think Russia influenced elections in the West, then you have to ask yourself, just how powerful are the West considering it takes a budget of $1 Million to buy adverts on social media and a scores of Russian trolls to influence and change the course of the West?
 
It was Merkal that decided a million refugees in the EU would be a good idea, and not just from Syria, but Afghanistan and Iraq too. The later 2 are 100% the result of USA/UK.

Do you not think the possibility of Turkey joining the EU also played a part?

At the end of the day if people think Russia influenced elections in the West, then you have to ask yourself, just how powerful are the West considering it takes a budget of $1 Million to buy adverts on social media and a scores of Russian trolls to influence and change the course of the West?

The Turkey story was a lie propagated by British racists.

I am talking about Brexit not "the West" whatever that is, and how a knife-edge vote was influenced by rich British fascists with access to American big data and allies in the Kremlin, plus the corrosive effect of the Russian trolls.

Clearly it works else Putin would not do it.
 
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if people think Russia influenced elections in the West

There are no ifs, Russia did interfere in American elections and that is a fact. Want some names of those involved? Look up for Agata Burdonova and Yuvgeny Prigozhin. They must have interfered in other countries too but I am going to focus on U.S. for now. Here is what Yevgeny had this say.

Yevgeny Prigozhin said he was "not at all upset" he was named in the indictment."Americans are very impressionable people, they see what they want to see,".
Unfortunately the impressionable part applies to many non Americans too. And no “they see what they want to see” part is not about Americans believing their government about Russian interference. It’s about sharing Americans sharing Russian propoganda without having second thoughts. He is talking about people like the women in Florida who said she doesn’t care if Russia was involved or not.
 
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION].

West being UK and USA. Russia is blamed for Brexit and Trump outcome.

If Putin was behind it, then it really shows how weak UK/USA nations are. Who needs weapons when we can use online trolls?
 
There are no ifs, Russia did interfere in American elections and that is a fact. Want some names of those involved? Look up for Agata Burdonova and Yuvgeny Prigozhin. They must have interfered in other countries too but I am going to focus on U.S. for now. Here is what Yevgeny had this say.


Unfortunately the impressionable part applies to many non Americans too. And no “they see what they want to see” part is not about Americans believing their government about Russian interference. It’s about sharing Americans sharing Russian propoganda without having second thoughts. He is talking about people like the women in Florida who said she doesn’t care if Russia was involved or not.

*Americans will see want they want too see* is what is said. Meaning American will blame anyone.

Like I said, had Clinton won, or remain, then there'd be no talk of Russian influence.
 
The Turkey story was a lie propagated by British racists.

So if Turkey story was lie propagated by British racists, then what does it have to with Russia?

Don't you see, the Bus, Refugees, Terrorism, Immigrants, austerity, Islamophobia (Dailymail/Sun), and Turkey, were all influential points when people voted in the referendum. None of these had anything to do with Russia. You yourself have said that Remain ran a poor campaign - largely down to complacency.

If Russia's online Propaganda machine against the EU is so powerful and influential then how comes Le Penn didn't win? Or 5 star didn't win?
 
So if Turkey story was lie propagated by British racists, then what does it have to with Russia?

Don't you see, the Bus, Refugees, Terrorism, Immigrants, austerity, Islamophobia (Dailymail/Sun), and Turkey, were all influential points when people voted in the referendum. None of these had anything to do with Russia. You yourself have said that Remain ran a poor campaign - largely down to complacency.

If Russia's online Propaganda machine against the EU is so powerful and influential then how comes Le Penn didn't win? Or 5 star didn't win?

Clearly all you say were factors. I don't understand why you don't accept that Russia was a factor too.
 
Clearly all you say were factors. I don't understand why you don't accept that Russia was a factor too.

From The Times:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/twitter-admits-russian-trolls-posted-about-brexit-k25fq3hvq

Twitter has finally conceded that accounts linked to a Russian “troll factory” tweeted about Brexit during the referendum campaign, but claimed that just 49 were involved.

The accounts connected to the Internet Research Agency in St Petersburg represented below 0.005 per cent of the total users tweeting about the referendum, according to Nick Pickles, the company’s UK head of public policy.

He claimed that the Brexit-tweeting accounts linked to the Russian troll army in St Petersburg received “very low levels of engagement” from other users. “Those accounts collectively posted 942 tweets, representing less than 0.02 per cent of the total tweets posted about the referendum during the campaign,” he said. “Those tweets collectively were retweeted 461 times and liked 637 times.”

49 Russian trolls represented 0.005% of users tweeting about the referendum. This is negligible. Does it qualify as influence or a factor? No way. Remain/Leave camps were posting far more, and were way more influential along with the issues leading up to the vote.

This is why I oppose the notion that UK voted Brexit because of Russian influence.
 
A tweet with a graphic. Will try to dig it out.

Obvo Twitter does not want to look like a vehicle for interference in Western democratic processes so will play down Russian propaganda.
 
Let’s be honest, Russia is the dodgiest nation on the planet by far. This week’s potential assassination of another naturalised British defector is the latest in a long shameful line of incidents connected with Russia. What about Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 for example; almost 300 innocent people blown out of the sky with a rocket launcher? Disgusting.

However I don’t actually think the Trump-Pence ticket was knowingly in league with the Russians - I think that one is total hogwash that has been peddled by Democrats in the US deep state.
 
Can't believe I actually agree with reverse swing on this thread,must be my dislike of biased Western media.
 
Let’s be honest, Russia is the dodgiest nation on the planet by far. This week’s potential assassination of another naturalised British defector is the latest in a long shameful line of incidents connected with Russia. What about Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 for example; almost 300 innocent people blown out of the sky with a rocket launcher? Disgusting.

However I don’t actually think the Trump-Pence ticket was knowingly in league with the Russians - I think that one is total hogwash that has been peddled by Democrats in the US deep state.

USA government shot down Iran Air Flight 655, called it a mistake. The number of assassinations carried out by USA also trumps that of Russians (pardon the pun).

They are both as bad as each other.
 
USA government shot down Iran Air Flight 655, called it a mistake. The number of assassinations carried out by USA also trumps that of Russians (pardon the pun).

They are both as bad as each other.

Well, the US at least has free and fair elections and a free press.

And as I keep saying, only one of them has nuclear missiles trained on us.
 
Let’s be honest, Russia is the dodgiest nation on the planet by far. This week’s potential assassination of another naturalised British defector is the latest in a long shameful line of incidents connected with Russia.

Here’s tinfoil hat stuff......

Putin is up for re-election. His opponent knows that the election is rigged and is telling his supporters to boycott the election to reduce Putin’s credibility at home and internationally. Putin has a Russian dissident executed on British soil, knowing that the U.K. will respond with sanctions. Putin talks tough in the face of the sanctions and more people vote for him. His position is reinforced for a few more years.
 
Well, the US at least has free and fair elections and a free press.

And as I keep saying, only one of them has nuclear missiles trained on us.

I do not think Russia is directly aiming nukes at the UK, more so at NATO bases, best case. Plus UK nuclear warheads are programmed with Russian destinations too.
 
Here’s tinfoil hat stuff......

Putin is up for re-election. His opponent knows that the election is rigged and is telling his supporters to boycott the election to reduce Putin’s credibility at home and internationally. Putin has a Russian dissident executed on British soil, knowing that the U.K. will respond with sanctions. Putin talks tough in the face of the sanctions and more people vote for him. His position is reinforced for a few more years.

Putin has an approval rating of 80%, and this is based on American research.

If economic sanctions were not in place, Russia would be booming, literally.

There is no doubt Putin has changed Russia, and made Russia into a powerhouse again - and the UK/USA don't like it because Russia is challenging the status quo.

As for the dissident, he was a spy, he knew what he signed up for. Civilian rules do not apply to spies.
 
I do not think Russia is directly aiming nukes at the UK, more so at NATO bases, best case. Plus UK nuclear warheads are programmed with Russian destinations too.

Of course Russia has nukes trained on London and Birmingham (countervalue) as well as military bases, GCHQ and airports such as LHR and LGW (counterforce). It's been that way since the 1960s.

I am absolutely shocked that you think otherwise. Perhaps two decades of no Cold War reassured you.

Putin has an approval rating of 80%, and this is based on American research.

Then he has nothing to fear from holding free and fair elections, and can stop assassinating hundreds of Russian journalists.

If economic sanctions were not in place, Russia would be booming, literally.

Then let them stop invading our airspace, massing tanks and missiles on our borders and destabilising our allies and the EU will drop the sanctions.

As for the dissident, he was a spy, he knew what he signed up for. Civilian rules do not apply to spies.


Uh, yeah they do. Murder is murder. We are not at war. You don't go onto somebody else's land and kill people and expect no sanction.
 
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