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W.G. Grace - Perhaps the Greatest ever?

You cannot prove it either way; that is why it is futile to compare players across eras, because such a discussion always hits a dead end.

The most logical criteria of rating a great player is to see how he compares with his peers. Viv, Sachin and Sobers were not as better than their peers as Bradman was, which is why Bradman's greatness towers above them.
This is easy to counter. Bradman didn't have to compete against much compared to the other three. If Bradman had faced a wider array of quality teams(which is not his fault) then this argument would stand. It is a prerequisite of mine when I judge great players, obviously others have their own. I can't blindly accept him as the greatest based on statistics.
 
I'd say that Viv actually was in the 80s, especially when you combine both formats.

He was well ahead of his time for certain, but his average wasn't superior. However, in terms of approach, he definitely was 15-20 years ahead of his time.
 
But doesn't it become harder to be ahead of your contemporaries as the sport develops? The batsman have more training facilities, and in general the quality of batsman has increased. So if there is more competition, it is obviously more difficult to stand out from it. And despite that Richards, Sachin, Ponting etc were ahead of their peers significantly. I think the difference in how better Sachin, Richards etc where than their peers compared to how better Bradman was is negligibly, considering all those factors.

But we don't know how Bradman would have developed with better facilities, that is the whole point.
 
But doesn't it become harder to be ahead of your contemporaries as the sport develops? The batsman have more training facilities, and in general the quality of batsman has increased. So if there is more competition, it is obviously more difficult to stand out from it. And despite that Richards, Sachin, Ponting etc were ahead of their peers significantly. I think the difference in how better Sachin, Richards etc where than their peers compared to how better Bradman was is negligibly, considering all those factors.

Sachin and Ponting were not significantly ahead of their peers. Sachin's greatest achievement was his longevity and consistency, whereas Ponting's was his peak. However averaged across their careers, they were not significantly better than their peers.
 
This is easy to counter. Bradman didn't have to compete against much compared to the other three. If Bradman had faced a wider array of quality teams(which is not his fault) then this argument would stand. It is a prerequisite of mine when I judge great players, obviously others have their own. I can't blindly accept him as the greatest based on statistics.

Okay, but if we use this criteria then we can't consider any single individual in any sport to be the greatest of all time.
 
He was well ahead of his time for certain, but his average wasn't superior. However, in terms of approach, he definitely was 15-20 years ahead of his time.

That's what makes him better than his peers, his approach to batting was genuinely game-changing. At a time when most of his peers were generally happy to crawl along, he could change the match in a few overs.
 
Sachin and Ponting were not significantly ahead of their peers. Sachin's greatest achievement was his longevity and consistency, whereas Ponting's was his peak. However averaged across their careers, they were not significantly better than their peers.

Longevity, consistency, peak etc are all part of a batsman's overall quality. So as an overall batsman they were significantly ahead of their peers. Sure they didn't have dominating averages but that is a very crude measure.
 
That's what makes him better than his peers, his approach to batting was genuinely game-changing. At a time when most of his peers were generally happy to crawl along, he could change the match in a few overs.

Which is why a lot of people consider him to be the second greatest batsman to walk the earth, but was he as ahead of his peers as Bradman? I would say it is debatable, and when it comes to this measure, he probably runs Bradman the closest.
 
Okay, but if we use this criteria then we can't consider any single individual in any sport to be the greatest of all time.

I think you may have misunderstood. There were only two quality teams during Bradman's time, Eng and Aus. Even if we go 20-30 years ahead, by then cricket had quite a few quality teams from different countries therefore making it easier to judge. If that was the case during Bradman's time and he'd dominated the same way or even to a lesser extent, he'd the greatest without a doubt.
 
Longevity, consistency, peak etc are all part of a batsman's overall quality. So as an overall batsman they were significantly ahead of their peers. Sure they didn't have dominating averages but that is a very crude measure.

Those characteristics may form part of a batsman's quality, but they're not defining characteristics. If we rated players on peak performances, then Philander would be among the top 10 bowlers in history.

As for consistency and longevity, in the case of Sachin, it's certainly not unmatched. Others players have demonstrated similar levels of these characteristics, they just didn't start playing at 16. That's more a case of "what if they did", rather than it couldn't be done.
 
Those characteristics may form part of a batsman's quality, but they're not defining characteristics. If we rated players on peak performances, then Philander would be among the top 10 bowlers in history.

As for consistency and longevity, in the case of Sachin, it's certainly not unmatched. Others players have demonstrated similar levels of these characteristics, they just didn't start playing at 16. That's more a case of "what if they did", rather than it couldn't be done.

I don't know any other person who played for 24 years and performed so well.

Peak isn't a defining characteristic. Neither if batting average, or runs or anything else. It should all be considered in a holistic manner. In that sense I think it is fair to say that Richards, Sachin, Lara, Ponting etc all were significantly ahead (although not as much as Bradman, but that may be partly due to the increased competition) of their contemporaries with the exclusion of each other.
 
Let me ask you a question. Let's forget Bradman for a minute here. If you think Bradman would have averaged 60-odd in this era, fine. But then what about Hammond, Hutton, Compton, Hobbs etc. These are top tier ATG batsmen. If you think Bradman's average would drop by 20-30 points, what happens to the others, do you slash 20-30 points off their averages too?

Some one did manual calculation of % of players averaging 50+. Around half of the players in 30s/40s were averaging 50+ .

decades.jpg

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?222716-Batting-averages-across-the-decades

I have absolutely no doubt that averages were inflated because you can't have a decent level of cricket to have 50% of batsmen averaging 50+. That's why I get a red flag when those averages are taken seriously and folks start listing many Eng ATG players based on batting average. There is a good reason that Eng has to go that far back to list players with ATG credentials.

Badman is superior to anyone simply due to being that far ahead but neither his average nor averages of other batsmen from the same period can be compared with periods when many teams started playing cricket seriously.
 
Just on the talk about the dons lack of opponents being a help to him, just imagine you are a modern batsmen and you are facing the same guys for 20 years and unlike now they don't have to forget about you and the damage you caused them while they move on to a variety of other opponents that they may have more success against.

You are their obsession and you are what stands between them and test success and you and only you are who they plan their tactics around just imagine then sustaining that elite level for your entire career under that sort of intense scrutiny.

Pakistan didn't focus for 20 years on how to stop sehwag, zimbabwe didn't think if we don't stop sangakkara test success will never be ours but england in that era faced that on a series by series basis.
 
Your school to university analogy doesn't apply in this case actually. It would relate if we are discussing say the jump up from FC to Test cricket. But here we are talking about international cricket with the best players competing. Using your very own analogy Bradman would actually be someone who dominated in the top most university itself (in percentage terms over 150% ahead of the next best in his field - not just during his time but in the university’s entire history).

This schools and university example was making a point. If keeping it to university helps you then ,

2 universities started with some new subject. One dude dominated big time in world but world consisted of 2 international universities. Fast forward 50 years. You have 10 international universities covering the same subject. Same dude can still dominate the world with 10 universities covering that subject but it will be a lot harder to dominate in similar fashion.

Bottom line - International cricket in 30s is not comparable to international cricket in 80s. Number of participants, who can compete at the top level, increased many fold.
 
Just on the talk about the dons lack of opponents being a help to him, just imagine you are a modern batsmen and you are facing the same guys for 20 years and unlike now they don't have to forget about you and the damage you caused them while they move on to a variety of other opponents that they may have more success against.

You are their obsession and you are what stands between them and test success and you and only you are who they plan their tactics around just imagine then sustaining that elite level for your entire career under that sort of intense scrutiny.

Pakistan didn't focus for 20 years on how to stop sehwag, zimbabwe didn't think if we don't stop sangakkara test success will never be ours but england in that era faced that on a series by series basis.

Body line was one attempt and it did cut down the average drastically. Also, simply thinking to tackle some one is not enough, you need to have resource to tackle and ability to execute your plans.
 
Just on the talk about the dons lack of opponents being a help to him, just imagine you are a modern batsmen and you are facing the same guys for 20 years and unlike now they don't have to forget about you and the damage you caused them while they move on to a variety of other opponents that they may have more success against.

You are their obsession and you are what stands between them and test success and you and only you are who they plan their tactics around just imagine then sustaining that elite level for your entire career under that sort of intense scrutiny.

Pakistan didn't focus for 20 years on how to stop sehwag, zimbabwe didn't think if we don't stop sangakkara test success will never be ours but england in that era faced that on a series by series basis.

They didn't have the technology that we have these days though. Any analysis and planning that was done, was done from memory. It may have been an obsession, but it needed to be due to a lack of tools. I'd argue that the level of scrutiny is not at the same level as teams preparing for a series in the modern era.
 
Body line was one attempt and it did cut down the average drastically. Also, simply thinking to tackle some one is not enough, you need to have resource to tackle and ability to execute your plans.

Issue is this whole argument all just comes down to speculation, just showing it can work both ways.

i can just argue even the best modern batsmen would crack if faced with the type of almost obsessive scrutiny the don was faced with when touring england time after time after time.
 
I think you may have misunderstood. There were only two quality teams during Bradman's time, Eng and Aus. Even if we go 20-30 years ahead, by then cricket had quite a few quality teams from different countries therefore making it easier to judge. If that was the case during Bradman's time and he'd dominated the same way or even to a lesser extent, he'd the greatest without a doubt.

Then who is the best ever in your view? Whoever he is, if you say that he would have outperformed Bradman in Bradman's era would be another assumption, so you can't really say who is the best ever without making any assumption(s) at all. Which is why it logical to stick to the basic criteria that the batsman who has outperformed his peers by the greatest margin is the best of them all.

In spite of all the variables that you are using to put Bradman down, why didn't anyone come anywhere close to him? They were not bad at all, but he was simply phenomenally good.
 
Then who is the best ever in your view? Whoever he is, if you say that he would have outperformed Bradman in Bradman's era would be another assumption, so you can't really say who is the best ever without making any assumption(s) at all. Which is why it logical to stick to the basic criteria that the batsman who has outperformed his peers by the greatest margin is the best of them all.

In spite of all the variables that you are using to put Bradman down, why didn't anyone come anywhere close to him? They were not bad at all, but he was simply phenomenally good.

I consider Viv to be the greatest. Assumptions will be made regardless of the criteria used.

It would be logical to stick to that criteria if there were more quality teams around.

Bradman was indeed phenomenal and simply ahead of his time. Again, he didn't have to compete with many players. Who's to say if Windies, SA or India were as developed in cricket as Australia would not have produced batsmen of Bradman's caliber. There aren't enough quality sides for me to conclude. But in future eras, there are, making it easier to judge.

Bradman could have been the greatest but there is enough doubt there for me to conclude otherwise which is why I don't rate any player from earlier eras(before 1960).
 
Just like to clarify, if Bradman were to play today, could he still go down as the greatest batsman? Yes he could. He was obviously a freak much like Sobers, Viv, Lara, Tendulkar were. But would he average 100? Absolutely not.

I also don't think he'd average 100 but there is definitely not enough evidence in my view to displace him as the greatest batsman of all time
 
Your school to university analogy doesn't apply in this case actually. It would relate if we are discussing say the jump up from FC to Test cricket. But here we are talking about international cricket with the best players competing. Using your very own analogy Bradman would actually be someone who dominated in the top most university itself (in percentage terms over 150% ahead of the next best in his field - not just during his time but in the university’s entire history).

During 130+ years of Test cricket over 450 batsmen (nos 1-7) have played at least 20 Tests. Yet the next best average after Bradman is G Pollock with 61 - should add that Bradman was striking around the 60 mark as well btw.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ualval1=matches;template=results;type=batting

Bradman is not just a massive anomaly in cricket but in history of professional sports itself. Not to mention he lost some of his best years as a batsman as well due to the war (age 30-38). Statistically no great of any professional sport comes even close to his level of domination. To put it simply he is THE freak of all freaks.

This graph pretty much sums it up.

cricket.PNG

Ponting averages 86.04 in 15 matches against India played in Australia.. However, his average comes down to 26.48 against the same opposition in 14 matches played in India. So, what's your explanation for the difference of 59.56 (massive gap)??

Wicket conditions play a huge part in player's performance whether you like to believe it or not. Ponting failed to adapt on slow turning tracks in India. 14 is a big enough sample size to draw a conclusion. Bradman played pretty much on similar wicket conditions all his life and never really stepped outside of his comfort zone into unknown territory. So, how can you be 100% sure he would conquer all the oppositions in all wicket conditions if he were to play today? What's the guarantee he would not follow Ponting's footsteps and fail against some opposition? Ponting after all is a legit world-class player and his example can't be ignored in a discussion like this.

I have no issue considering Bradman as no.1 batsman.. After all, his performance and consistency should count for something. However, I possibly can't believe he would automatically get the no.1 spot suppressing all of his peers by freakish margin if he were to play today.. I also can't believe he would automatically average into 90, or 80 or even for that matter, in 70 just because he did it back in the day. Competition level at this point is far too stiff after all!
 
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Some one did manual calculation of % of players averaging 50+. Around half of the players in 30s/40s were averaging 50+ .

View attachment 57622

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?222716-Batting-averages-across-the-decades

I have absolutely no doubt that averages were inflated because you can't have a decent level of cricket to have 50% of batsmen averaging 50+. That's why I get a red flag when those averages are taken seriously and folks start listing many Eng ATG players based on batting average. There is a good reason that Eng has to go that far back to list players with ATG credentials.

Badman is superior to anyone simply due to being that far ahead but neither his average nor averages of other batsmen from the same period can be compared with periods when many teams started playing cricket seriously.

I wouldn’t read too much into those percentages. Differences in the number of teams/players/playing conditions/playing styles/rules, minnow players/teams, and other miscellaneous events (WW2, SA isolation, WSC etc) means those percentages are not much to go off. As far as batting is concerned most of those decades had their own set of challenges and opportunities. Simply applying a 500 run cut-off and calculating percentages is not going to standardise data from different decades/eras.
 
This schools and university example was making a point. If keeping it to university helps you then ,

2 universities started with some new subject. One dude dominated big time in world but world consisted of 2 international universities. Fast forward 50 years. You have 10 international universities covering the same subject. Same dude can still dominate the world with 10 universities covering that subject but it will be a lot harder to dominate in similar fashion.

Bottom line - International cricket in 30s is not comparable to international cricket in 80s. Number of participants, who can compete at the top level, increased many fold.

It would make sense if we are talking about for example the gap between FC cricket and Test cricket. But how exactly is the school to university analogy relevant when we are talking about international cricket with the best players available taking part? It’s not as if Test cricket was an amateur sport back then. Test cricket is the highest level of the game.

As times change obviously things do evolve and in most cases improve. Cricket is no exception. But that doesn’t mean what has come before should be treated any less. Progress is usually built upon past success, lessons and know-how. Your analogy of different universities is fair enough, although rather than representing Test nations, universities representing different eras would probably make more sense (eg 1930-50, 1950-70 and so on).

Of course it would be a lot harder to dominate in a similar fashion no arguments there. But say you were to go back in time right before Bradman came into the scene and ask about the likelihood of someone scoring close to 7000 Test runs at an average of around 100. What do you reckon the responses would have been? The highest ave before Bradman was around 65 btw.
 
Ponting averages 86.04 in 15 matches against India played in Australia.. However, his average comes down to 26.48 against the same opposition in 14 matches played in India. So, what's your explanation for the difference of 59.56 (massive gap)??

Wicket conditions play a huge part in player's performance whether you like to believe it or not. Ponting failed to adapt on slow turning tracks in India. 14 is a big enough sample size to draw a conclusion. Bradman played pretty much on similar wicket conditions all his life and never really stepped outside of his comfort zone into unknown territory. So, how can you be 100% sure he would conquer all the oppositions in all wicket conditions if he were to play today? What's the guarantee he would not follow Ponting's footsteps and fail against some opposition? Ponting after all is a legit world-class player and his example can't be ignored in a discussion like this.

I have no issue considering Bradman as no.1 batsman.. After all, his performance and consistency should count for something. However, I possibly can't believe he would automatically get the no.1 spot suppressing all of his peers by freakish margin if he were to play today.. I also can't believe he would automatically average into 90, or 80 or even for that matter, in 70 just because he did it back in the day. Competition level at this point is far too stiff after all!

Ponting ain’t no Bradman is he? So not sure why you are bringing him into this discussion. As for different conditions and more competition/professionalism etc yes those are things that modern-day cricketers have to deal with but every era has it's own set of challenges and opportunities. The fact of the matter is that Bradman dominated wherever he played and whoever he played against.

Of course I’m not saying that Bradman averaging in the 90s in the modern game is a given. Not at all. But you however seem to think that it’s an absolute impossibility. I will ask you the same question I posted above. Say you were to go back in time right before Bradman came into the scene and ask about the likelihood of someone scoring close to 7000 Test runs at an average of around 100. What do you reckon the responses would have been?

Btw Bradman got to the 90 ave mark in only his 7th Test (mid 1930) and maintained it all the way to the end (Test number 52 mid 1948).

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...template=results;type=batting;view=cumulative

Not even in FC cricket has any other batsman averaged any where close to 100. Unsurprisingly Bradman tops the all-time FC batting list as well (over 28000 FC runs @ 95) with the next best being around the 70 mark. So again however you look at it he's just miles ahead. Sanga as a specialist bat for example averages close to 70. So for a freak of all freaks to average in the 90s in the modern game is not all that far fetched as you seem to think.
 
On todays flat pitches Bradman probably would increase his average to about 125 and more than likely have to retire not out on a few occasions.
 
Born on 18th July, 1848!

Where would have been in cricket without this personality?
 
“The law has finally caught up with W G Grace after 150 years; it’s such a W G story in many ways,” Lawrence Booth, the editor of Wisden Almanack, says in jest about his decision to amend the statistics of cricket’s first superstar in this year’s Almanack.

Ten matches have been excised from Grace’s much-contested numbers as they have been deemed not to be of first-class nature; his hundreds have come down from 126 to 124, run-tally from 54,596 to 54,211, and wickets from 2,876 to 2,809.

Grace, who played from 1865 to 1908, was a great cricketer, embellished with myths and legends, and is considered to have done more to establish and popularise cricket than anyone in history.

Hailed as a “loveable rascal”, his tales off the field are as legendary as the ones on it: He has kidnapped cricketers of opposition teams, claimed bumped catches, championed gamesmanship, bullied umpires, and was also the first batsman fluent off both the front and back foot, and proficient on the off and on side. He was a qualified doctor who treated a few cricketers’ injuries and ran a medical practice. He called himself an amateur cricketer but earned much more than any professional of his time.

“It does nothing to diminish the great cricketer, instead it culls out unnecessary lies, Wisden is a book of record, romanticism need not be done through lies. It was purely a rational decision,” Booth tells The Indian Express.

“Are we trying to delude the past to cater to the exceptionalism of Victorian England?” Booth asks.

The 150-year-old controversy stems from the creative accountancy carried out to ensure that Grace, the most popular player of his time, was seen to have tallied 2,000 runs in a season for the second time. In 1873, he had scored 1805 runs at an average of 72. It wasn’t enough for the promoters. Extra runs were added from dubious games to carry him past the 2000-run mark.

“Hertfordshire and Staffordshire have never been first-class counties; the MCC XI who took on the touring team to Canada were actually a XV, including so many weak players they felt the need to be bolstered by a professional, Arnold Rylott; and the game at The Oval was a one-innings affair, tagged on to the end of a match that had finished early. To make matters more dubious, W G was the only player in those four games whose runs were recorded as first-class. Not for the first time, it was one rule for W G Grace, another for everyone else,” Booth writes in a piece in the Almanack.

The dubious stats had been severely contested by the much-respected statistical body Association of Cricket Statisticians and Historians (ACS). Wisden even agreed with it and amended the numbers in its 1981 edition. But the next year, its then editor John Woodcock returned to the original figures — siding with the romantic version of the Grace story — saying it was a piece done without his approval.

A couple of years ago, one of Booth’s colleagues at Wisden, a member of the ACS, brought up the issue.

“That set me thinking,” Booth tells this newspaper. “We were supposed to run the changes last year but couldn’t find a place for it, so decided to hold it. ACS is a reputed body which has done tremendous hard work to deem which qualifies as first-class and which doesn’t. It’s fairly ludicrous that W G didn’t have universally accepted figures. We have chosen to side with the rigour of ACS.”

In his reversal, Woodcock had written that his decision was made in order ”to leave the great man’s figures as they have been for as long as anyone cares to remember”. He added: “Then, as now, contemporary opinion was the best criterion.”

Back in 1895, Grace’s 100th hundred was a great cricketing occasion. By all accounts, he was a nervous wreck by the time he got into his 90s; and so were the bowlers.

A scorer would pop out two fingers through the scoreboard, not as a victory sign, but to help everyone know that two runs remained for the hundred. According to the player CL Townsend: “Poor Sam Woods could hardly bowl the ball, and the Doctor was nearly as bad.”

Woods then gifted a full toss on the legs and everyone cheered in relief as Grace drove it for a boundary to bring up the landmark. Later, in a celebratory private dinner for 18 guests, Grace would authorise a plate maker to carve a plate with all his hundreds marked around his portrait. He made a killing on the memorabilia.

Myths and half-truths have always been woven around Grace As Booth says, 150 years later, even a rational correction only adds to the romance of the Doctor — cricket’s first global star even before the sport became global.

https://indianexpress.com/article/s...ers-and-some-myths-around-the-legend-7900063/
 
I added Grace in test rating thread i did (Late 2021) with era performance into consideration.
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...st-batsman-by-taking-Peer-Factor-into-account

Grace was pretty high up as batsman alone.

[table=class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]Era Avg [/td][td]Diff Avg [/td][td]PAv/EAvg [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DG Bradman (AUS) [/td][td]1928-1948 [/td][td]52 [/td][td]6996 [/td][td]99.94 [/td][td]33.47 [/td][td]66.47 [/td][td]2.99 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ED Weekes (WI) [/td][td]1948-1958 [/td][td]48 [/td][td]4455 [/td][td]58.62 [/td][td]30.12 [/td][td]28.50 [/td][td]1.95 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SPD Smith (AUS) [/td][td]2010-2021 [/td][td]77 [/td][td]7540 [/td][td]61.80 [/td][td]32.38 [/td][td]29.42 [/td][td]1.91 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CL Walcott (WI) [/td][td]1948-1960 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]3798 [/td][td]56.69 [/td][td]29.95 [/td][td]26.74 [/td][td]1.89 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KF Barrington (ENG) [/td][td]1955-1968 [/td][td]82 [/td][td]6806 [/td][td]58.67 [/td][td]31.12 [/td][td]27.56 [/td][td]1.89 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]H Sutcliffe (ENG) [/td][td]1924-1935 [/td][td]54 [/td][td]4555 [/td][td]60.73 [/td][td]32.73 [/td][td]28.00 [/td][td]1.86 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GS Sobers (WI) [/td][td]1954-1974 [/td][td]93 [/td][td]8032 [/td][td]57.78 [/td][td]31.47 [/td][td]26.31 [/td][td]1.84 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JB Hobbs (ENG) [/td][td]1908-1930 [/td][td]61 [/td][td]5410 [/td][td]56.95 [/td][td]31.36 [/td][td]25.59 [/td][td]1.82 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]WR Hammond (ENG) [/td][td]1927-1947 [/td][td]85 [/td][td]7249 [/td][td]58.46 [/td][td]32.81 [/td][td]25.65 [/td][td]1.78 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]L Hutton (ENG) [/td][td]1937-1955 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]6971 [/td][td]56.67 [/td][td]32.09 [/td][td]24.59 [/td][td]1.77 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KC Sangakkara (SL) [/td][td]2000-2015 [/td][td]134 [/td][td]12400 [/td][td]57.41 [/td][td]34.10 [/td][td]23.31 [/td][td]1.68 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KS Williamson (NZ) [/td][td]2010-2021 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]7230 [/td][td]53.96 [/td][td]32.38 [/td][td]21.57 [/td][td]1.67 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GRACE [/td][td]1880-1889 [/td][td]22 [/td][td]1098 [/td][td]32.29 [/td][td]19.38 [/td][td]12.91 [/td][td]1.67 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JH Kallis (ICC/SA) [/td][td]1995-2013 [/td][td]166 [/td][td]13289 [/td][td]55.37 [/td][td]33.33 [/td][td]22.04 [/td][td]1.66 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GS Chappell (AUS) [/td][td]1970-1984 [/td][td]87 [/td][td]7110 [/td][td]53.86 [/td][td]32.46 [/td][td]21.40 [/td][td]1.66 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A Flower (ZIM) [/td][td]1992-2002 [/td][td]63 [/td][td]4794 [/td][td]51.55 [/td][td]31.65 [/td][td]19.90 [/td][td]1.63 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]FMM Worrell (WI) [/td][td]1948-1963 [/td][td]51 [/td][td]3860 [/td][td]49.49 [/td][td]30.44 [/td][td]19.04 [/td][td]1.63 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Javed Miandad (PAK) [/td][td]1976-1993 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]8832 [/td][td]52.57 [/td][td]32.38 [/td][td]20.19 [/td][td]1.62 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BC Lara (ICC/WI) [/td][td]1990-2006 [/td][td]131 [/td][td]11953 [/td][td]52.89 [/td][td]32.66 [/td][td]20.23 [/td][td]1.62 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SR Tendulkar (INDIA) [/td][td]1989-2013 [/td][td]200 [/td][td]15921 [/td][td]53.79 [/td][td]33.34 [/td][td]20.45 [/td][td]1.61 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AD Nourse (SA) [/td][td]1935-1951 [/td][td]34 [/td][td]2960 [/td][td]53.82 [/td][td]33.43 [/td][td]20.38 [/td][td]1.61 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DCS Compton (ENG) [/td][td]1937-1957 [/td][td]78 [/td][td]5807 [/td][td]50.06 [/td][td]31.10 [/td][td]18.96 [/td][td]1.61 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]V Kohli (INDIA) [/td][td]2011-2021 [/td][td]96 [/td][td]7765 [/td][td]51.09 [/td][td]32.01 [/td][td]19.07 [/td][td]1.60 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]PBH May (ENG) [/td][td]1951-1961 [/td][td]66 [/td][td]4537 [/td][td]46.77 [/td][td]29.38 [/td][td]17.40 [/td][td]1.59 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RN Harvey (AUS) [/td][td]1948-1963 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]6149 [/td][td]48.42 [/td][td]30.44 [/td][td]17.97 [/td][td]1.59 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SM Gavaskar (INDIA) [/td][td]1971-1987 [/td][td]125 [/td][td]10122 [/td][td]51.12 [/td][td]32.58 [/td][td]18.54 [/td][td]1.57 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JE Root (ENG) [/td][td]2012-2021 [/td][td]109 [/td][td]9278 [/td][td]50.15 [/td][td]31.97 [/td][td]18.18 [/td][td]1.57 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SR Waugh (AUS) [/td][td]1985-2004 [/td][td]168 [/td][td]10927 [/td][td]51.06 [/td][td]32.59 [/td][td]18.47 [/td][td]1.57 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Dravid (ICC/INDIA) [/td][td]1996-2012 [/td][td]164 [/td][td]13288 [/td][td]52.31 [/td][td]33.57 [/td][td]18.75 [/td][td]1.56 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AR Border (AUS) [/td][td]1978-1994 [/td][td]156 [/td][td]11174 [/td][td]50.56 [/td][td]32.47 [/td][td]18.09 [/td][td]1.56 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RT Ponting (AUS) [/td][td]1995-2012 [/td][td]168 [/td][td]13378 [/td][td]51.85 [/td][td]33.39 [/td][td]18.46 [/td][td]1.55 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IVA Richards (WI) [/td][td]1974-1991 [/td][td]121 [/td][td]8540 [/td][td]50.24 [/td][td]32.47 [/td][td]17.77 [/td][td]1.55 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Mohammad Yousuf (PAK) [/td][td]1998-2010 [/td][td]90 [/td][td]7530 [/td][td]52.29 [/td][td]33.83 [/td][td]18.46 [/td][td]1.55 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]S Chanderpaul (WI) [/td][td]1994-2015 [/td][td]164 [/td][td]11867 [/td][td]51.37 [/td][td]33.39 [/td][td]17.98 [/td][td]1.54 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Younis Khan (PAK) [/td][td]2000-2017 [/td][td]118 [/td][td]10099 [/td][td]52.06 [/td][td]33.94 [/td][td]18.12 [/td][td]1.53 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ML Hayden (AUS) [/td][td]1994-2009 [/td][td]103 [/td][td]8625 [/td][td]50.74 [/td][td]33.18 [/td][td]17.55 [/td][td]1.53 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Inzamam-ul-Haq (ICC/PAK) [/td][td]1992-2007 [/td][td]120 [/td][td]8830 [/td][td]49.61 [/td][td]32.77 [/td][td]16.84 [/td][td]1.51 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]KD Walters (AUS) [/td][td]1965-1981 [/td][td]74 [/td][td]5357 [/td][td]48.26 [/td][td]31.92 [/td][td]16.34 [/td][td]1.51 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]C Hill (AUS) [/td][td]1896-1912 [/td][td]49 [/td][td]3412 [/td][td]39.22 [/td][td]26.03 [/td][td]13.19 [/td][td]1.51 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AB de Villiers (SA) [/td][td]2004-2018 [/td][td]114 [/td][td]8765 [/td][td]50.66 [/td][td]33.72 [/td][td]16.95 [/td][td]1.50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DA Warner (AUS) [/td][td]2011-2021 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]7311 [/td][td]48.10 [/td][td]32.01 [/td][td]16.09 [/td][td]1.50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SJ McCabe (AUS) [/td][td]1930-1938 [/td][td]39 [/td][td]2748 [/td][td]48.21 [/td][td]32.21 [/td][td]16.01 [/td][td]1.50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MEK Hussey (AUS) [/td][td]2005-2013 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]6235 [/td][td]51.53 [/td][td]34.42 [/td][td]17.10 [/td][td]1.50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]VT Trumper (AUS) [/td][td]1899-1912 [/td][td]48 [/td][td]3163 [/td][td]39.05 [/td][td]26.11 [/td][td]12.94 [/td][td]1.50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ER Dexter (ENG) [/td][td]1958-1968 [/td][td]62 [/td][td]4502 [/td][td]47.89 [/td][td]32.03 [/td][td]15.87 [/td][td]1.50 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RB Kanhai (WI) [/td][td]1957-1974 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]6227 [/td][td]47.53 [/td][td]32.07 [/td][td]15.46 [/td][td]1.48 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]G Boycott (ENG) [/td][td]1964-1982 [/td][td]108 [/td][td]8114 [/td][td]47.73 [/td][td]32.27 [/td][td]15.46 [/td][td]1.48 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DPMD Jayawardene (SL) [/td][td]1997-2014 [/td][td]149 [/td][td]11814 [/td][td]49.85 [/td][td]33.72 [/td][td]16.13 [/td][td]1.48 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AR Morris (AUS) [/td][td]1946-1955 [/td][td]46 [/td][td]3533 [/td][td]46.49 [/td][td]31.45 [/td][td]15.04 [/td][td]1.48 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RG Sharma (INDIA) [/td][td]2013-2021 [/td][td]43 [/td][td]3047 [/td][td]46.88 [/td][td]31.74 [/td][td]15.13 [/td][td]1.48 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
Cricket before 1900 was pretty unpredictable.
Batting average fluctuated widely from the low to 10.6 (in 1888) to the high of 41.67 (in 1897)
[table=class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Year [/td][td]Runs [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Avg [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1877 [/td][td]1417 [/td][td]75 [/td][td]18.89333 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1878 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1879 [/td][td]548 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]18.26667 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1880 [/td][td]953 [/td][td]35 [/td][td]27.22857 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1881 [/td][td]1049 [/td][td]33 [/td][td]31.78788 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1882 [/td][td]3280 [/td][td]162 [/td][td]20.24691 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1883 [/td][td]2153 [/td][td]106 [/td][td]20.31132 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1884 [/td][td]3062 [/td][td]111 [/td][td]27.58559 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1885 [/td][td]2866 [/td][td]132 [/td][td]21.71212 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1886 [/td][td]1909 [/td][td]96 [/td][td]19.88542 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1887 [/td][td]984 [/td][td]80 [/td][td]12.3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1888 [/td][td]1485 [/td][td]140 [/td][td]10.60714 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1889 [/td][td]810 [/td][td]62 [/td][td]13.06452 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1890 [/td][td]1007 [/td][td]71 [/td][td]14.1831 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1891 [/td][td]0 [/td][td]0 [/td][td] [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1892 [/td][td]3213 [/td][td]139 [/td][td]23.11511 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1893 [/td][td]2561 [/td][td]92 [/td][td]27.83696 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1894 [/td][td]2520 [/td][td]80 [/td][td]31.5 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1895 [/td][td]2701 [/td][td]102 [/td][td]26.48039 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1896 [/td][td]4066 [/td][td]211 [/td][td]19.27014 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1897 [/td][td]1292 [/td][td]31 [/td][td]41.67742 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1898 [/td][td]4021 [/td][td]126 [/td][td]31.9127 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1899 [/td][td]5916 [/td][td]229 [/td][td]25.83406 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
Whatever one says regarding who's the greatest and who was good or not, the thing is without these names, cricket wouldn't be where it is today.
 
Greatest ever? That's a stretch.

Cricket was very amateurish back then.

It’s not just the on field stuff though is it, he is a pioneer and was instrumental in popularising the sport, without WG, cricket wouldn’t be where it is today.

Put respect on the elders name.
 
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