Waqar Younis vs Allan Donald?

[Random Aussie]

Steyn much better in Aus than Waqar.
Waqar much better in England that Steyn.

WEIRD.

Waqar was rarely fit for the Aus tours.

 

[Buffet]

Steyn much better in Aus than Waqar.
Waqar much better in England that Steyn.

WEIRD.

Why is it weird? Two bowlers can have varying records in different country. Also gap between their performance in Eng is not that huge. Anyway, I think it's more meaningful to directly compare two players after their retirement.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Watched them bowl, their impact on games, what they did at big moments, their legacies.

I watched them bowl too and also saw their impacts, stats would agree with me also that Donald was better than Waqar..

Wasim would make many all time XI


No arguements here..

I doubt Donald would be in anyone's team.


Maybe only not in yours and some Pakistanis team, my guestimate would be that Donald would be in ahead of Waqar for majority of cricket supporters..

bold..

 

[Random Aussie]

bold..

Thats fair enough, we have different opinions

 

[Romali_rotti]

Thats fair enough, we have different opinions

AGREED, each to their own......... Oh I forgot to mention Donald missed a few of his younger years due to South Africa's exile from international cricket...

 

[soso_killer]

Donald is definately ahead of Lillee and McGrath. No doubt about that

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Donald is definately ahead of Lillee and McGrath. No doubt about that

Ahead of Lillee may be but ahead of McGrath - no

 

[robelinda]

No way is Donald ahead of McGrath. and no its not my nationality talking. Both ahead of Lillee, but in general Lillee wouldnt be in my all time top 10 anyway. I'd have McGrath and Ambrose pretty much neck and neck, with Marshall ahead of everyone really. Though Curtly's poor record vs India is a minus for him. He never troubled Sachin, like McGrath always did.

 

[Jo_Don]

I don't understand this - how is Donald ahead of Lillee, not ahead of McGrath, but Ambrose is equal to Mcgrath and Marshall is ahead of everyone? What the heck are you guys smoking and what criteria are you using to define these orders?

It would make more sense to say that these are your favourite bowlers in a particular order, since they aren't based on...anything...really.

 

[robelinda]

Nothing to do with favourite bowlers at all. I dont think anyone is basing it on favourites.

Marshall
McGrath
Imran
Wasim
Waqar
Curtly

for me

 

[Jo_Don]

Then what is it based on? Certainly not facts...

Wasim was never ranked the test #1 bowler in his career, but he's 4th in your list...

 

[soso_killer]

Ahead of Lillee may be but ahead of McGrath - no

No way is Donald ahead of McGrath. and no its not my nationality talking. Both ahead of Lillee, but in general Lillee wouldnt be in my all time top 10 anyway. I'd have McGrath and Ambrose pretty much neck and neck, with Marshall ahead of everyone really. Though Curtly's poor record vs India is a minus for him. He never troubled Sachin, like McGrath always did.

i have analysed data over and over again. Donald is ahead of McGrath and Lillee in every aspect, as a match winner as well.
There was thread regarding Waqar vs Steyn you can look for my posts there. The stats include records for fast bowlers with 300+ wickets.
I forgot the other one where i posted the same data. I'm not going to do that again

 

[robelinda]

Then what is it based on? Certainly not facts...

You think Lille is above Donald and McGrath??

 

[soso_killer]

Nothing to do with favourite bowlers at all. I dont think anyone is basing it on favourites.

Marshall
McGrath
Imran
Wasim
Waqar
Curtly

for me

whats your criteria then? And McGrath ahead of Hadlee?

 

[SL_Fan]

Donald is definately ahead of Lillee and McGrath. No doubt about that

How so? Cos he's South African?

 

[Jo_Don]

You think Lille is above Donald and McGrath??

No, he never performed in the subcontinent. IMO every player is allowed to perform below their best against one country, but not more than one. The rest is based on their ability to shape matches and then stats. That's my criteria, I await yours...

 

[robelinda]

Pretty much the same.

 

[soso_killer]

How so? Cos he's South African?

AGAIN!! Visit the threads i've stated above, objective numbers are there. No cut off dates, no "at his peak" etc.
Threads: 1) Steyn vs Waqar, 2) Waqar: Steyn is in the top 3 bowler of all time.

 

[Jo_Don]

Pretty much the same.

If it was then Wasim wouldn't be on your list, having never been ranked #1, having never achieved 900 points as the mark of consistency, and with all his tailender wickets. If he's there because of his ability with the ball, then it's based on personal preference...

 

[robelinda]

If it was then Wasim wouldn't be on your list, having never been ranked #1, having never achieved 900 points as the mark of consistency, and with all his tailender wickets. If he's there because of his ability with the ball, then it's based on personal preference...

LOL its not like i live and die by my all important list i posted on some random forum. Im open to changing my mind based on evidence presented to me. Honestly, ive always had trouble really rating Wasim properly, he was always a mega talented highly skilled bowler (obvioulsy!) but never felt he was THE danger man. I felt Imran and Waqar were more of a threat. Same for Hadlee, unsure where to rate him, if only he played more in the SC, those 3 tests in Pak were not good for Hadlee.

 

[Jo_Don]

LOL its not like i live and die by my all important list i posted on some random forum. Im open to changing my mind based on evidence presented to me. Honestly, ive always had trouble really rating Wasim properly, he was always a mega talented highly skilled bowler (obvioulsy!) but never felt he was THE danger man. I felt Imran and Waqar were more of a threat. Same for Hadlee, unsure where to rate him, if only he played more in the SC, those 3 tests in Pak were not good for Hadlee.

100%. But then it seems like you're applying different criteria to Donald compared to the rest, that's all I'm trying to bring across

 

[Jo_Don]

How so? Cos he's South African?

Don't think that's his reason TBH. Many people here rate Ntini, where I don't. The guy never even had a slower ball, and barely got any movement either through the air or off the pitch. He was Siddle's predecessor IMO - running in and giving it his best, but nothing that really stood out.

 

[soso_killer]

Don't think that's his reason TBH. Many people here rate Ntini, where I don't. The guy never even had a slower ball, and barely got any movement either through the air or off the pitch. He was Siddle's predecessor IMO - running in and giving it his best, but nothing that really stood out.

yeah he was a working horse nothing more. Good comparison

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

i have analysed data over and over again. Donald is ahead of McGrath and Lillee in every aspect, as a match winner as well.
There was thread regarding Waqar vs Steyn you can look for my posts there. The stats include records for fast bowlers with 300 wickets.
I forgot the other one where i posted the same data. I'm not going to do that again

If you start from Indian series 1999 when McGrath was only 2 month short from being 30 ,he played total 22 series till he retired at the age of 37 and in 19 out of 22 series he averages 25 or under 25.
He never had a fall and 2 out of 3 series where he average over 25 came just before injuries. He was consistent, have a long carrer of 124 test in 13 year (avg 9.5 test and around 20 odi a year) ,see Steyn played around 72 odi in 9 years because he wanted to keep himself fit .
He is one of the few fast bowlers who has both the quality and quantity .He managers to keep average under 22 even playing till the age of 37 is just a genius

 

[soso_killer]

If you start from Indian series 1999 when McGrath was only 2 month short from being 30 ,he played total 22 series till he retired at the age of 37 and in 19 out of 22 series he averages 25 or under 25.
He never had a fall and 2 out of 3 series where he average over 25 came just before injuries. He was consistent, have a long carrer of 124 test in 13 year (avg 9.5 test and around 20 odi a year) ,see Steyn played around 72 odi in 9 years because he wanted to keep himself fit .
He is one of the few fast bowlers who has both the quality and quantity .He managers to keep average under 22 even playing till the age of 37 is just a genius

what a player averaged in a series does not necessarily amount to anything. My analysis was better than what you have given me. Please visit those threads before you engage me in a debate

 

[Buffet]

LOL its not like i live and die by my all important list i posted on some random forum. Im open to changing my mind based on evidence presented to me. Honestly, ive always had trouble really rating Wasim properly, he was always a mega talented highly skilled bowler (obvioulsy!) but never felt he was THE danger man. I felt Imran and Waqar were more of a threat. Same for Hadlee, unsure where to rate him, if only he played more in the SC, those 3 tests in Pak were not good for Hadlee.

How about looking it from one more angle? I counted how many times they were 25+ average in whole series. I picked 25 as figure because we can consider 25 as cut off for great bowler.



******************************


Great Bowlers having 25+ average in test series


Ambrose: 5 out of 26 series - 19%

---

Marshal: 6 out of 21 series - 28%

Pollock: 12 put of 39 Series - 30%

McGrath: 14 out of 42 series - 33%

Hadlee: 11 out of 33 series - 33%

---

Donald : 12 out of 28 series - 42%

Wasim : 17 out of 40 series - 42%

Imran : 11 out of 24 series - 45%

---

Waqar: 21 out of 38 series - 55%



Clearly, Ambrose is head and shoulder above others in consistently doing great in series after series. Marshall, Pollock , Hadlee & McGrath are bit behind but clearly ahead of others. Then we have Donald, Wasim and Imran Khan. Waqar is way down in consistently being great bowler for his team. It was injury for Waqar but I am taking their career anyway.

***********************************************

If you are consistently great, series after series, then you are going to help your team win more test series as a bowler. I pick Marshall, Ambrose and McGrath as my top 3.



Marhsall, Ambrose & McGrath

• - Over all average in 20-21 range. ( Took wickets cheaper than everyone else in our list)
• - Consistent series after series to help their team. ( Better than most in our list, only Pollock/Hadlee were in same range)
• - Consistent in all conditions (Some were not so consistent. Example - IK, Waqar averages 25+ outside Asia)
• - Huge number of 5-fer so had the ability to run through sides consistently. ( Pollock has few 5-fers for his class but he was good in taking cheap 1/2 wickets)

Then it becomes bit more difficult to put others in any order. May be Hadlee will take 4th spot due to being lone warrior and still being right up there. I only considered above listed bowlers due to having watched them. For me, Marshall, Ambrose and McGrath are top 3 bowlers. I didn't include Lille because I have not seen him at all. I also saw only partial career of Hadlee, Marshall & IK. Keeping Steyn out because he is still playing.

 

[soso_killer]

The most lethal Bowlers i've seen in no particular order.
1st Tier: Marshall, Steyn, Donald, Ambrose, Waqar, Hadlee.

2nd Tier: McGrath, Pollock, Akram, IK

3rd Tier: Lillee, Walsh, Bishop, Ganer, Gillespie

4th Tier: Ntini, Gough, Lee, Botham

never rated Dev as a bowler to be honest

(i never saw Trueman)

 

[robelinda]

@Buffet Yes I was aware of those stats, thanks for posting them dude. So, Ambrose and Marshall on top. McGrath comfortable ahead of Donald, as I thought it would be.

Av above 25 in test series -

Ambrose: 5 out of 26 series - 19%

Marshal: 6 out of 21 series - 28%

Pollock: 12 put of 39 Series - 30%

McGrath: 14 out of 42 series - 33%

Hadlee: 11 out of 33 series - 33%

Donald : 12 out of 28 series - 42%

Wasim : 17 out of 40 series - 42%

Imran : 11 out of 24 series - 45%

Waqar: 21 out of 38 series - 55%

 

[Mamoon]

Steyn amongst the most lethal bowlers of all time?

Not until he stops running away and go into hiding as soon as the ball loses an iota of shine.

New ball bully, who probably has the ability to bowl only one swinger in two years.

Ineffective against left handers.

So predictable he is, incapable batsman still fall for it. Everyone knows what he's gonna do 99% of the time.

Not even close to Marshall, wasim, Waqar, Imran, McGrath, Lillee, Holding.

 

[soso_killer]

Steyn amongst the most lethal bowlers of all time?

Not until he stops running away and go into hiding as soon as the ball loses an iota of shine.

New ball bully, who probably has the ability to bowl only one swinger in two years.

Ineffective against left handers.

So predictable he is, incapable batsman still fall for it. Everyone knows what he's gonna do 99% of the time.

Not even close to Marshall, wasim, Waqar, Imran, McGrath, Lillee, Holding.

what ever dude. Its funny that the predictable Steyn takes a wicket every 30 balls in wins and 31 against the top 6. The next best is 35.5. He averages 16 in wins. Only Hadlee and IK average less but they dont come close so his S.R.
Steyn

 

[Buffet]

Steyn amongst the most lethal bowlers of all time?

......

So predictable he is, incapable batsman still fall for it. Everyone knows what he's gonna do 99% of the time.

Not even close to Marshall, wasim, Waqar, Imran, McGrath, Lillee, Holding.

Batsmen should be very happy and thanks their lucky stars then. So predictable and still doing so well to have records comparable to best bowlers in history. Anyway, we should leave Steyn out from direct comparisons till he retires.

 

[Hasan123]

Fan of both but I'll go with Waqar just.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Donald for sure. Much more consistent over a longer period of time. And Waqar's prime isn't better than Donald's, both are comparable

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Allan Donald.

 

[Rightarmfast]

Its almost a no brainer.. Alan Donald! Waqar was a legend, but Allan kept at it way longer than he did. Also, Waqar wasnt fast anymore after 3-4 years of his playing years. I find that too short a period of time to lose pace. While Donald was bowling express almost till the end.

 

[Sidilicious]

Donald

 

[The_Odd_One]

If you remove Australia from Donald's record, he averages in 20s against all other teams. Waqar was several levels below Donald in both tests and ODIs.

 

[Ab Fan]

Donald..

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Peak Waqar over any fast bowler of last 35 years.

Overall Donald.