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Was 1987-2003 Pakistan team unlucky to not have frequent ICC tournaments to show its full potential?

Bhaijaan

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One of the greatest generations of talent without doubt. Underachieved in global tournaments. They should have win at least 3 trophies if tournaments were as frequent then as they are now.

To put things into context if 50 overs conpetition is considered the only main global tournament like it was back then the game has only seen 3 winners since Pakistan in 1992 i.e., Australia (thrice), India and Sri Lanka.
 
1999 Pak team were the best ODI team ever assembled. Varieties in every aspect. Similar to 1982 Brazil, it is a travesty that they did not win anything. Still jealous of that team.
 
Many were corrupt.

Playing more tournaments would have only resulted in more money making opportunities.

No actions taken after J Qayum report.
 
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Maybe yes. 1999 and 1996 world cups should have been ours. 1999 was just a bad day and 1996 I can't ever pardon Aamir sohail..
 
From Australia cup 86 to World Cup 92 Pakistan won many multilateral tourneys however post IK the future generation could not keep the momentum running.One underrated win is Nehru cup 90.It was similar to our CT win last year started slowly needed 3 wins on a trot beat host India to qualify for Semis then beat England and finally beat the favourites windies in the final to emerge winners
 
No.

1996 Sri Lanka were the best team with the innovative Kaluwithrana and Jaysuriya opening with legendary De Silva and the cunning Rantunga with Murlitharan and Vaas.

1999 Pakistan had a good team but the Australian team was better with ATG in Ponting, Mcgrath, Gilchrist and Warne.

Not sure about 2003 but I think most of superstars had retired by then for Pakistan.

Pakistan deservedly got knocked out in Quarter finals and finals of 96' and 99' World Cups.

We were good, just not ATG as some people claim the team to be.
 
1999 Pak team were the best ODI team ever assembled. Varieties in every aspect. Similar to 1982 Brazil, it is a travesty that they did not win anything. Still jealous of that team.

Formidable bowling and great batting depth. It was a good fielding team too.

Batting overall was bit hot and cold and wasnt that spectacular against top bowlers.

Nonetheless it was a great team overall and should have won some competitions.
 
No.

1996 Sri Lanka were the best team with the innovative Kaluwithrana and Jaysuriya opening with legendary De Silva and the cunning Rantunga with Murlitharan and Vaas.

1999 Pakistan had a good team but the Australian team was better with ATG in Ponting, Mcgrath, Gilchrist and Warne.

Not sure about 2003 but I think most of superstars had retired by then for Pakistan.

Pakistan deservedly got knocked out in Quarter finals and finals of 96' and 99' World Cups.

We were good, just not ATG as some people claim the team to be.

1996 - India and Pakistan were both better

1999 - At the time only Warne was a superstar in that team. Rest were all budding youngsters. Pakistan were formidable.

2003 - Pakistan slayed Australia in Australia just few months ago.
 
2002 ODI series win in Australia is quite astonishing.
 
1996 - India and Pakistan were both better

1999 - At the time only Warne was a superstar in that team. Rest were all budding youngsters. Pakistan were formidable.

2003 - Pakistan slayed Australia in Australia just few months ago.

What exactly were McGrath, Fleming, M. Waugh and S. Waugh?
 
Luck had no part to play in it.

Put it this way, if we had a board like the Aussies then we would have been number one for an entire decade...
Failing which a captain like Imran Khan would have been brilliant....

Instead we had talented players who were not professional enough and without proper management we underperformed badly.
 
What exactly were McGrath, Fleming, M. Waugh and S. Waugh?

Ponting had been in the Test team since about '95...

it was Gilchrist & Lehmann's FOURTH year of ODI cricket...

Reiffel was vastly experienced and had played a distinguished career.

Moody was an 80's veteran hand picked by Waugh for a swangsong due t his playing style, calm demeanour, professionalism, reliability and specifically extensive experience in English conditions and county cricket.

This was a team at the peak of its powers.
 
1999 Pak team were the best ODI team ever assembled. Varieties in every aspect. Similar to 1982 Brazil, it is a travesty that they did not win anything. Still jealous of that team.
Best ever ODI team lost four matches in that WC including one defeat vs Bangladesh.

The reason being it was a two man batting unit heavily dependent on Anwar and Inzamam. Salim and Ijaz were past their prime, whilst you had guys like Wasti opening and Razzaq batting at 3. That team had excellent bowlers and all rounders which is what makes that team memorable but the batting was too unreliable and got exposed in the final.

The 1996 team had a stronger batting lineup with majority of the players still in their primes.
 
That's always the problem with Pakistan and India. Individual talents hadn't converted into too many team victories. Just like famed India batting line up which used to score tons of runs but not win matches, Pakistan bowling lineup also had the same issue, lots of wickets but too few a victories. And so what do the fans do, find solace in claiming top positions in something - SRT was the best batsman ever and Akram was the best bowler ever blah blah. If they were the best, they would have won matches like McGrath, Warne, Graeme Smith, Ponting did.
 
Our batting line was pathetic throughout the 90's and failed to perform more often than not. We had a strong bowling contingent but even they couldn't do anything when our batting lineup collapsed
 
Maybe yes. 1999 and 1996 world cups should have been ours. 1999 was just a bad day and 1996 I can't ever pardon Aamir sohail..

1999, yes. That team was incredible. 1996, no. SL was the strongest team and were deserved winners
 
1987
1999

We should've won.

2003 we should have at least reached Semis.

2007 this was a pretty solid team too.
 
1987 : Salim Yousuf WK getting injured at wrong time and makeshift WK Miandad missing crucial byes cost pakistan the game.


I996 : Again playing Miandad cost Pakistan. He was wasting one spot , which could have gone to a better batsman or spin all rounder .

1999 : Pakistan decision to bat first cost them the final. Otherwise they had very good chance.

2003 : Not a side good enough to win.

2007 : Shahid Afridi and Razzak not playing in initial phase cost Pakistan. Bob Woolmer had made a solid deep with good depth in Batting , unfortunately those two main players getting injured at wrong time, made Pakistan really weak.

2011 :
Poor fielding cost Pakistan the game. If they hold on the chances , they would have restricted India to 230 . Also , Waqar poor tactical move of not using Razzak or Afridi when Power Play was on.
 
1987
1999

We should've won.

2003 we should have at least reached Semis.

2007 this was a pretty solid team too.

From 1987 to 1999, Pakistan were among the favourites in 4 competitions and managed just 1trophy.


They should have had at least one more.
 
1999 Pak team were the best ODI team ever assembled.

It was a collection of many gun players, but team was hardly the best ever.

That team lost to ,

Bangladesh
India
South Africa
Aus
 
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what? They had enough ICC tournaments.

1987 WC
1992 WC (PAK Won)
1996 WC
1998 - ICC Knock out trophy
1999 - World Cup
2000 - ICC Knock out trophy
2002 - Champions Trophy
2003 - WC

So 8 ICC events in those 16 years which equals one every 2 years. Pakistan won a grand total of 1 trophy out of those. So no they got enough chance but they just did not make it count.
 
It was a collection of many gun players, but team was hardly the best ever.

That team lost to ,

Bangladesh
India
South Africa
Aus

They did not click in that tournament. That was a funny tournament. Aus lost to NZ, Pak, tie with SA, had a scare against Zim and SA. So yeah, i still think they under achieved. Gun team.
 
Our batting line was pathetic throughout the 90's and failed to perform more often than not. We had a strong bowling contingent but even they couldn't do anything when our batting lineup collapsed

What are you saying man! Your batting line up wasn't great, but it was still good enough.
 
That's always the problem with Pakistan and India. Individual talents hadn't converted into too many team victories. Just like famed India batting line up which used to score tons of runs but not win matches, Pakistan bowling lineup also had the same issue, lots of wickets but too few a victories. And so what do the fans do, find solace in claiming top positions in something - SRT was the best batsman ever and Akram was the best bowler ever blah blah. If they were the best, they would have won matches like McGrath, Warne, Graeme Smith, Ponting did.

:)) 3 of them played in the same team at the same time.
 
1999 Pak team were the best ODI team ever assembled. Varieties in every aspect. Similar to 1982 Brazil, it is a travesty that they did not win anything. Still jealous of that team.

You do realize that "that brazil team' is the reason why Bangladesh is having test status right? lol They also lost to one of the weakest Indian team in a world cup and got canned by Australia in the final.
 
And is it a coincidence that 1 of them i.e Ponting didn't remain the match winner after the other 2 i.e McGarth and Warne retired?
 
If anything 1987 Indian team not winning world cup was a travesty. Only two years back they had crushed all the world teams in the benson hedges. They had all the ingredients to crush everyone in that world cup.
 
'87, '92, '96, '99, '03 WCs, '98, '00 and '02 CTs - Thats 8 ICC tournaments

Pakistan were winners in '92, finalists in '99 and semi finalists in '87 WC and '00 CT. Not as great a performance as that team should have achieved.

Just for comparison, India were joint winner in '02 CT, finalists in '03 WC and '00 CT, semi finalists in '87 and '96 WCs and '98 CT. We weren't as great a ODI unit all those years. In 2000 knock out, we had to go though the pre QF stage
 
If anything 1987 Indian team not winning world cup was a travesty. Only two years back they had crushed all the world teams in the benson hedges. They had all the ingredients to crush everyone in that world cup.

The team had regressed after that win. Pakistan kept thrashing us in multiple tournaments. ShviramaKrishnan not being part of the team was the biggest blow. But for Sidhu's stunning comeback, we would not have made it even to the semis
 
You do realize that "that brazil team' is the reason why Bangladesh is having test status right? lol They also lost to one of the weakest Indian team in a world cup and got canned by Australia in the final.

That Brazil team did not win anything like Pakistan. That was the comparison. Despite being prodigiously talented. Spain losing to Switzerland, West Germany losing to East Germany won't make them any lesser team. They reached the final and had a very bad day. Even Australia were not consistent in that tournament.
 
What are you saying man! Your batting line up wasn't great, but it was still good enough.

Do you forget the frequent collapses? We never had a stable opening partnership after Amir Sohail and Saeed Anwar. Saeed Anwar was also very susceptible to knicking the ball outside of the offstump. The opening partnership was folllowed by Ijaz and Inzimam. Ijaz was also a player who would perform once in a while and wasn't very consistent. He was replaced by Younis Khan and we all know how pathetic of a one day player he was. Yousuf peaked near the end of his career for a couple of years otherwise was rather mediocre.

Look at the other players in the team during this time. Shahid Afridi, the less said about him the better. An aging Saleem Malik. Imran Nazir, Imran Farhat, Taufeeq Umar, Azhar Mahmood was a mainstay in the team in the late 90's followed by Abdul Razzaq who were useful players but not always reliable. Then there were the likes of Basit Ali, Saleem Elahi.

Point is lots of players who had very long careers which is primarily what they are remembered for but none of them were performing consistently. The only one that I know of who performed consistently well was Inzi.
 
They didnt won enough because of same reason SA didnt won ICC tournament in 92, 99, 03 and 15.
 
From 1987 to 1999, Pakistan were among the favourites in 4 competitions and managed just 1trophy.


They should have had at least one more.

I back India to win 2019 and 2023 honestly.

Their current players will be at their absolute peak.

And then the 2023 is in India, so home advantage.
 
They didnt won enough because of same reason SA didnt won ICC tournament in 92, 99, 03 and 15.

RSA were not the best in the world in all of those tournaments except for 1999 maybe.
 
Pakistan ironically were the best in all of them except for 1992. What a joke on part of destiny indeed.
 
Pakistan ironically were the best in all of them except for 1992. What a joke on part of destiny indeed.
Over-rated. Individually brilliant, but hardly ever stood up when the team needed it most. Made a legacy out of bashing India and New Zealand, who were literal jokes of the cricket world at the time. Australia and South Africa humiliated us time and again. They are remembered rather fondly for being this ‘aggressive’ and ‘in your face’ team, when they consistently folded like a pack of cards under the first sign of pressure.
 
Over-rated. Individually brilliant, but hardly ever stood up when the team needed it most. Made a legacy out of bashing India and New Zealand, who were literal jokes of the cricket world at the time. Australia and South Africa humiliated us time and again. They are remembered rather fondly for being this ‘aggressive’ and ‘in your face’ team, when they consistently folded like a pack of cards under the first sign of pressure.

You can call batting overrated, but not the bowling.

Normally, this was your bowling line up.

Wasim
Imran/Waqar/Shoaib - they didn’t play together as much
Mushtaq/Razzaq
Saqlain
Aaqib/Azhar Mahmood

At any given point you had 2 of the top 10 ever pace bowlers + 1 ODI ATG spinner in the lineup.
Other than Aus (Warne, McGrath, Lee) no one has ever had that.

Then you had either Aaqib Jared or Azhar Mahmood as the 3rd seamer. Not ODI ATGs, but they were defo world class.

Then you had either Mushy as the 2nd spinner, or Razzaq as the 4th seamer. Again World Class.

This was followed by Afridi as the 6th bowler.

So, you had 3 ATGs + 2 World Class bowlers + 1 decent spinner.

The only reason I can think of you guys not winning enough was your backup batsmen were poor.

2nd opener
No.3 / No.4 - had either Razzaq and another average bat.

Then you had solid 5 (Inzi), 6 (Moin), 7 (Azhar Mahmood), 8 (Afridi), 9 (Wasim). This is a pretty solid lower order that is capable of doing good damage. A better top order - even one throughly reliable no.3/4 like Babar Azam would have given you another WC.
 
Between that 30 years period of mid 70s to mid 2000s, world's cricket standard was at it's highest point in history, therefore I don't think anyone underachieved. In fact, PAK wasn't deserving 1992 WC to be honest. Still a WC, another Final, Neheru Cup, couple of Austral Asia Cups, a WSC, away series win to IND, AUS - not bad at all.

1987 may be, because that team had the best ODI attack for the condition, probably best ever for Asian WC considering Imran, Wasim, Jafar, Qadir & Tauseef were at their peak together. 1996 team on paper was fantastic, but they missed Wasim in crucial game and carried couple of baggage in playing XI. 1999 AUS peaked at right time, while AUS, IND were better team in 2003.

If any one is tagged as under achievers (In ODI) from 1990 to 2015, it has to be SAF - for 25 years they had an outstanding team, but choked at wrong time.
 
:)) 3 of them played in the same team at the same time.

What's your point? Didn't Tkar have Dravid/Ganguly/Kumble with him? Didn't Wasim/Waqar/Javed/Anwar played in the same team at the same time? Point i made was Indians and Pakistanis used to collect a lot of individual stats but didn't used to win enough.
 
What's your point? Didn't Tkar have Dravid/Ganguly/Kumble with him? Didn't Wasim/Waqar/Javed/Anwar played in the same team at the same time? Point i made was Indians and Pakistanis used to collect a lot of individual stats but didn't used to win enough.

My point was that those 3 Aussies you mentioned played together in the same era in what could be termed arguably as the greatest team ever. The moment 2 of them i.e McGrath and Warne retired, the other one i.e Pointing ceased being a match winner. Does that tell you something?
 
The only lesson that can be learned from this is that a team can have brilliant individual players and yet the team is unlikely to achieve anything significant unless they play as a unit. Have a look at the Aussie side from 99' till 07'. Quite a few of the players despised each other, yet they forgot their differences when they played as a unit. We can hate the rogue Aussie attitude, but none of us can deny how well they played as a unit. Michael Clarke, while being the captain, once declared the innings when he was on 329, when he could have probably taken a chance to break Lara's record. On the contrary, look at what Lara did as a captain during his record breaking innings in 2004.
 
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My point was that those 3 Aussies you mentioned played together in the same era in what could be termed arguably as the greatest team ever. The moment 2 of them i.e McGrath and Warne retired, the other one i.e Pointing ceased being a match winner. Does that tell you something?

Ponting played 67 matches post 2003 when both McGrath and Warne were not in the team, scored 5000 runs, won 35 of those 67 matches and had 5 man of the match awards. Transpose this to Tkar's overall record and then tell me that Ponting ceased to be a match winner without Mcgrath and Warne. Ponting with Warne/McGrath was superior to one without him but either of them was much bugger match winner than Indian greats.
 
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Ponting played 67 matches post 2003 when both McGrath and Warne were not in the team, scored 5000 runs, won 35 of those 67 matches and had 5 man of the match awards. Transpose this to Tkar's overall record and then tell me that Ponting ceased to be a match winner without Mcgrath and Warne. Ponting with Warne/McGrath was superior to one without him but either of them was much bugger match winner than Indian greats.

Except that along with McGrath and Warne, guys like Hayden, Gilly, Martyn, Langer, etc retired as well. Here are Ponting's stats after McWarne retired (since 2007) -

Innings - 105; Runs - 4055; Ave - 40.14; 100's - 8; 50's - 26


Just 8 centuries in 105 innings after those great players retired? Now let's look at what he contributed in wins during that period -

Runs - 2293; Ave - 45.86; 100's - 4; 50's 17

I'm surprised. How how his numbers were so magnificent both overall and in wins when he had those great players around him, and yet his overall numbers and his numbers in wins came down drastically the moment those great players around him retired.


Link: http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...7;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting
 
You can call batting overrated, but not the bowling.

Normally, this was your bowling line up.

Wasim
Imran/Waqar/Shoaib - they didn’t play together as much
Mushtaq/Razzaq
Saqlain
Aaqib/Azhar Mahmood

At any given point you had 2 of the top 10 ever pace bowlers + 1 ODI ATG spinner in the lineup.
Other than Aus (Warne, McGrath, Lee) no one has ever had that.

Then you had either Aaqib Jared or Azhar Mahmood as the 3rd seamer. Not ODI ATGs, but they were defo world class.

Then you had either Mushy as the 2nd spinner, or Razzaq as the 4th seamer. Again World Class.

This was followed by Afridi as the 6th bowler.

So, you had 3 ATGs + 2 World Class bowlers + 1 decent spinner.

The only reason I can think of you guys not winning enough was your backup batsmen were poor.

2nd opener
No.3 / No.4 - had either Razzaq and another average bat.

Then you had solid 5 (Inzi), 6 (Moin), 7 (Azhar Mahmood), 8 (Afridi), 9 (Wasim). This is a pretty solid lower order that is capable of doing good damage. A better top order - even one throughly reliable no.3/4 like Babar Azam would have given you another WC.
They were mentally weak, just like the generations to follow. Talent can only get you so far. The likes of Wasim and Waqar should have won Pakistan more matches than they did, but at the end of the day we remember them both for their individual records more than any major accomplishments.

When you speak of YK, you remember how Pakistan won a T20 World Cup under his captaincy in addition to his stellar record as a Test great. When you speak of Sarfraz, you remember how Pakistan won a Champions Trophy under his captaincy and how he is hogging a spot in the team despite not performing at an acceptable level. Two mediocre LOI cricketers made it possible for Pakistan to achieve brilliance, while Wasim and Waqar were content with winning Pakistan the Pepsi, Coca-Cola cups.
 
Between that 30 years period of mid 70s to mid 2000s, world's cricket standard was at it's highest point in history therefore I don't think anyone underachieved. In fact, PAK wasn't deserving 1992 WC to be honest. Still a WC, another Final, Neheru Cup, couple of Austral Asia Cups, a WSC, away series win to IND, AUS - not bad at all.

That is just nostalgia talking.

Cricket wasn't even a professional sports in the 70s. The quality and level of the game has gone up several notches since the 90s.

And that is true for any sports where exposure and investments are on an upward curve.

The hitting ability of batsmen, the quality of fielding, the fitness of pacers - everything is better today than it was 20 years ago.
 
You can call batting overrated, but not the bowling.

Normally, this was your bowling line up.

Wasim
Imran/Waqar/Shoaib - they didn’t play together as much
Mushtaq/Razzaq
Saqlain
Aaqib/Azhar Mahmood

At any given point you had 2 of the top 10 ever pace bowlers + 1 ODI ATG spinner in the lineup.
Other than Aus (Warne, McGrath, Lee) no one has ever had that.

Then you had either Aaqib Jared or Azhar Mahmood as the 3rd seamer. Not ODI ATGs, but they were defo world class.

Then you had either Mushy as the 2nd spinner, or Razzaq as the 4th seamer. Again World Class.

This was followed by Afridi as the 6th bowler.

So, you had 3 ATGs + 2 World Class bowlers + 1 decent spinner.

The only reason I can think of you guys not winning enough was your backup batsmen were poor.

2nd opener
No.3 / No.4 - had either Razzaq and another average bat.

Then you had solid 5 (Inzi), 6 (Moin), 7 (Azhar Mahmood), 8 (Afridi), 9 (Wasim). This is a pretty solid lower order that is capable of doing good damage. A better top order - even one throughly reliable no.3/4 like Babar Azam would have given you another WC.

Azhar Mahmood and Razzaq as world class bowlers? What is wrong with you? You must have really low standards.
 
That is just nostalgia talking.

Cricket wasn't even a professional sports in the 70s. The quality and level of the game has gone up several notches since the 90s.

And that is true for any sports where exposure and investments are on an upward curve.

The hitting ability of batsmen, the quality of fielding, the fitness of pacers - everything is better today than it was 20 years ago.

Cricket actually is the first modern game to be professionalized - from 1864. 1871 was the year when County cricket started and it was complete professional league with games in 6 days of week & Sunday off.

But, I get what you are trying to say here. That's true for most other sports, probably every other sports - NOT FOR CRICKET. The reason, this game is completely different from any other modern game. It's learned, developed & mastered through longer format of the game. By nature, cricket is a slow, skilled based game built on mental & physical endurance, and perfection of the skills, which can't be developed without longer game. Today, we are killing the longer game both domestically & Internationally - that skill level will never reach at the highest level. People can't compare that because we can't arrange a game between best of 80s at peak Vs best of 60s or 2010s at peak - you are always watching games between contemporaries.

These power hitting and all sorts of fancy staffs that recent people talks about have very little idea of the game. Today you are watching Gayle, AB or Butler "Power hitting" bowlers - 15-20 years back had they not mastered their batting skills from FC system, they won't have been remotely close to what they are now. I read lots of funny comments regarding Power hitting here in PP - if half of that was true, best power hitter in world should have been Md. Irfan, the 7 footer guy.

Fitness requirements are completely different in cricket - 6 pack Watson is one of the most unfit cricketers ever, while beer belly Shane Warne tormented batsmen for 2 decades, overs after overs, hours after hours, days after days. From modern Gold gym body, any top fast bowlers from 70s - 80s - 90s were much fitter, even more than Kohli. Take Kapil or Imran or Hadlee or Marshall - they used to bowl 1000+ overs in English summer in 5 months, then to their own domestics, International cricket .... add to that Imran or Kapil or Hadlee or Botham putting similar effort in batting - it's 2000+ overs/year & they used to bat as well - between No. 5 to 7..... add to that similar work load at nets.

Fielding standard is worst now in last 35 years - what has improved is athleticism and ground covering, throwing, sliding etc .... Catching is at it's lowest level, not only slip catching, anything that needs sharp reflex or solid grab; what has improved is area coverage for skiers like baseball - still the catching isn't safe; Chahal dropped Liton, Shahzad was dropped against BD. Check replays from 80s & 90s - top fielders used to grab balls at one touch, now most fielders dive in the line of ball to stop it - how many clean pick-ups have you seen in these days like Jhonty, Azhar, Mark, Ponting, Gibbs or Hooper? Least said about catching against spin at close-in is better.

Spin play is at it's lowest standard, probably since WW II. Even Indian batsmen are bunnied by the mighty spin of Moeen Ali!!! These guys Rashed, Mujeeb, Akila are bamboozling batsmen like the biggest mystery on earth - because of non existing footwork & spin reading ability; even Shadab looks a Champion bowling 60% Googly, because most batsmen these days can't read Leggis from delivery release or in flight. 20 years back, you would have seen batsmen taking their front pad just outside line and negotiate his Googly.

The reason why the quality of cricket is declining fast is because of less importance of FC cricket. It's a slow death, we can't help - Millennials won't ever bother for a game that lasts for 4/5 days, and you can't master this game just from hitting hard or bowling fast - it's a skilled based game like Yoga, which needs years long slow learning.

I am too young to be nostalgic about things just 20 years back - but I understand this game a little, how the skills are inter related and what are the success factors. Most importantly, I can compare the skills of the game. No nostalgia here - cricket reached it's peak in between 1980s & 1990s, flanked by 1970s & 2010s - before that it was amateurish staff, after that T20 staff. That's why you'll see me regardless of Nationality, rating top players in those 35 years highest. There are many ancient games that had been erased from modern days, cricket is going to be another one - just not because world in moving forward this game will also move forward.
 
Azhar Mahmood and Razzaq as world class bowlers? What is wrong with you? You must have really low standards.

They were ODI World class ARs.

And yes, my standards are low. I are up watching Harvinder Singh, Mohanty, Dodda Ganesh, Johnson and Aber Kuruvilla. Would have taken either Razzler or Azhar Mehmood as ARs, or Aaqib Javed anytime.
 
From Australia cup 86 to World Cup 92 Pakistan won many multilateral tourneys however post IK the future generation could not keep the momentum running.One underrated win is Nehru cup 90.It was similar to our CT win last year started slowly needed 3 wins on a trot beat host India to qualify for Semis then beat England and finally beat the favourites windies in the final to emerge winners

what about world cup 1988
Australian side was not better then Pakistan but we lost in semifinal at Lahore
 
That is just nostalgia talking.

Cricket wasn't even a professional sports in the 70s. The quality and level of the game has gone up several notches since the 90s.

And that is true for any sports where exposure and investments are on an upward curve.

The hitting ability of batsmen, the quality of fielding, the fitness of pacers - everything is better today than it was 20 years ago.

I am laughing at bowlers being fitter today.Jeff Thompson and Malcolm Marshall operated at high 160s to sometimes 170s in their prime. No modern bowler comes remotely close.

There were 8 bowlers in 1970s and 1980s who clocked 160 plus compared to only 3 in this era
 
I am laughing at bowlers being fitter today.Jeff Thompson and Malcolm Marshall operated at high 160s to sometimes 170s in their prime. No modern bowler comes remotely close.

There were 8 bowlers in 1970s and 1980s who clocked 160 plus compared to only 3 in this era

That's exaggeration. Nobody was bowling in the 170s.

Thompson bowled a few balls in his whole career that touched 160. His highest recorded speed was 160.45kph.

Even in the modern era we have seen bowlers touch 160 - people like Shoaib, Tait and Starc.

And let's not lose perspective. "Pace" isn't the definition of fitness. Some bowlers just have pace and others don't.

Starc is the only bowler currently playing who has clocked 160ks. But he gets injured all the time! So pace has nothing to do with fitness.

Moreover, it's ludicrous to compare the workload a Jeff Thompson had compared to what any modern day bowlers have. It's a heaven and hell difference.

And lastly, picking out the cream of the crop like Thompson and Marshall does not define the general fitness level of fast bowlers of that era. They were not the rule. They were very much the exception to the rule which is why they role above everybody else.

It is common sense and general knowledge that with the advancement in sports medicine, sports management and overall advancement of fitness of pro sports, all altheletes are in general fitter today.
 
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They were a good set of players but didn't play as a team and let there egos get in the way. That's why they underachieved.
 
Cricket actually is the first modern game to be professionalized - from 1864. 1871 was the year when County cricket started and it was complete professional league with games in 6 days of week & Sunday off.

But, I get what you are trying to say here. That's true for most other sports, probably every other sports - NOT FOR CRICKET. The reason, this game is completely different from any other modern game. It's learned, developed & mastered through longer format of the game. By nature, cricket is a slow, skilled based game built on mental & physical endurance, and perfection of the skills, which can't be developed without longer game. Today, we are killing the longer game both domestically & Internationally - that skill level will never reach at the highest level. People can't compare that because we can't arrange a game between best of 80s at peak Vs best of 60s or 2010s at peak - you are always watching games between contemporaries.

These power hitting and all sorts of fancy staffs that recent people talks about have very little idea of the game. Today you are watching Gayle, AB or Butler "Power hitting" bowlers - 15-20 years back had they not mastered their batting skills from FC system, they won't have been remotely close to what they are now. I read lots of funny comments regarding Power hitting here in PP - if half of that was true, best power hitter in world should have been Md. Irfan, the 7 footer guy.

Fitness requirements are completely different in cricket - 6 pack Watson is one of the most unfit cricketers ever, while beer belly Shane Warne tormented batsmen for 2 decades, overs after overs, hours after hours, days after days. From modern Gold gym body, any top fast bowlers from 70s - 80s - 90s were much fitter, even more than Kohli. Take Kapil or Imran or Hadlee or Marshall - they used to bowl 1000+ overs in English summer in 5 months, then to their own domestics, International cricket .... add to that Imran or Kapil or Hadlee or Botham putting similar effort in batting - it's 2000+ overs/year & they used to bat as well - between No. 5 to 7..... add to that similar work load at nets.

Fielding standard is worst now in last 35 years - what has improved is athleticism and ground covering, throwing, sliding etc .... Catching is at it's lowest level, not only slip catching, anything that needs sharp reflex or solid grab; what has improved is area coverage for skiers like baseball - still the catching isn't safe; Chahal dropped Liton, Shahzad was dropped against BD. Check replays from 80s & 90s - top fielders used to grab balls at one touch, now most fielders dive in the line of ball to stop it - how many clean pick-ups have you seen in these days like Jhonty, Azhar, Mark, Ponting, Gibbs or Hooper? Least said about catching against spin at close-in is better.

Spin play is at it's lowest standard, probably since WW II. Even Indian batsmen are bunnied by the mighty spin of Moeen Ali!!! These guys Rashed, Mujeeb, Akila are bamboozling batsmen like the biggest mystery on earth - because of non existing footwork & spin reading ability; even Shadab looks a Champion bowling 60% Googly, because most batsmen these days can't read Leggis from delivery release or in flight. 20 years back, you would have seen batsmen taking their front pad just outside line and negotiate his Googly.

The reason why the quality of cricket is declining fast is because of less importance of FC cricket. It's a slow death, we can't help - Millennials won't ever bother for a game that lasts for 4/5 days, and you can't master this game just from hitting hard or bowling fast - it's a skilled based game like Yoga, which needs years long slow learning.

I am too young to be nostalgic about things just 20 years back - but I understand this game a little, how the skills are inter related and what are the success factors. Most importantly, I can compare the skills of the game. No nostalgia here - cricket reached it's peak in between 1980s & 1990s, flanked by 1970s & 2010s - before that it was amateurish staff, after that T20 staff. That's why you'll see me regardless of Nationality, rating top players in those 35 years highest. There are many ancient games that had been erased from modern days, cricket is going to be another one - just not because world in moving forward this game will also move forward.

In most of your post you are confusing skills with fitness.

Fitness in general, has evolved at a dramatic pace. It is the same in every single sports. To think that it's somehow different for cricket in particular would require some very hard facts. Does anyone have any because so far I have not come across any?

Every player, current or past agrees that fitness levels are several notches above today than it was even 15 years ago.

Unless the cricketers from the 60s and 70s were some other kind of superhuman sub-species who were just naturally fitter than any humans that came before them or have come since, I don't know what would make you think that they are the exception to the rule that applies globally across all sports.

This is a matter of science and scientific progress we are talking about. It is not up for debate unless one can provide compelling and quantitative evidence against it. It is neither a matter of opinion nor of annecdotal evidence.
 
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Please stop derailing this thread.

Consider it a gentle warning.

Thanks.

Your Bhaijaan.
 
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