Was a better athlete than all three put together: Kapil Dev on comparisons with IK, Botham, Hadlee

[Abdullah719]

Former Indian captain Kapil Dev is regarded as one of the greatest all-rounders of all-time. He was the first skipper to lead India to World Cup glory in 1983 when his team scripted history by defeating the mighty West Indies in the final at the iconic Lord’s Stadium. Dev was an exceptional fielder, a brilliant bowler and an equally good batsman, who could change gears when required.

Dev’s legacy can be determined from the fact that India are yet to find an all-rounder with similar qualities who can take the world cricket by a storm and contribute consistently with the bat and the ball. While very few all-rounders from the present era come close to matching Dev’s feat, he had some fierce competitors during his era.

The likes of Imran Khan, Ian Bothan and Richard Hadlee are often pitted against each other when it comes to the debate over the greatest all-rounder of all-time. Kapil recently gave his take on the comparisons with the other three greats and said he was the fittest of all three as an athlete if not the greatest.

“I wouldn’t say I was the greatest, but I was a better athlete than all three put together,” Kapil told former India cricketer and current head coach of Indian women’s team WV Raman on Inside Out podcast.

He also explained how Imran, Botham and Hadlee were all different from each other. The former India captain rated Hadlee as the best bowler among the four and called the New Zealand legend a computer for his smart thinking. He called Imran the most hard-working player out of all four and rated Botham as a true all-rounder.

“The best bowling was Richard Hadlee’s - he was like a computer among the four of us. I wouldn’t say Imran Khan was the best athlete or the most natural, but he was the most hardworking player we’ve seen. When he started out, he looked like an ordinary bowler, but then he became a very hardworking fast bowler and he learned by himself. And then he worked on his batting as well,” said Dev.

“Ian Botham was a true allrounder - in given conditions, he could win a match on his own. I wouldn’t say Hadlee was the best batsman. Botham could do damage to the opposition both with bat [and ball]. Imran could run through the [opposition] team, but his ability as a leader was far better. To control the Pakistan team he had was a challenge,” he added.

https://www.timesnownews.com/sports...sons-with-imran-khan-ian-botham-hadlee/629566

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Hadlee: the bowler
Imran: the leader
Botham: the all rounder
Kapil: the athlete

Interesting article.

 

[Ted123]

Imran was the best.

 

[Bhaijaan]

James Anderson of his era
+ Batting calibre and clutch knock ability of Ben Stokes/ Klusener
+world cup winning captain

The most explosive batsman of his era who in his prime took apart even the West Indian pace quartet

Kapil Dev is massively underappreciated and rather disrespected on PP time and again.

He was quite clearly THE stand out cricketer of his era against West Indies among the great ARs.

 

[Kashur_Kalkharab]

James Anderson of his erA.

Couldn't get this, either you are james Anderson like Or not? Where did this era thing come from?

 

[Robert]

I watched Imran and Kapil bowl together for the Rest vs MCC, and Imran was the athlete while Kaoil looked rather.... waddling.

 

[umarf76]

Depends on how you define an athelete. It is subjective.

Botham was probably the most naturally talented. Forget his bowling and his six hitting ability but what about his slip fielding? Known to stand a few yard ahead of the others and always only hands on knees.

Imran was no average athlete either. He was not an great fielder but look at his bowling jump.

1. Best Bat - I would say Botham from 1980 to 1984 OR Imran from 1988 to 1992.
2. Bowling - Imran 1980 to 1983 vs. Hadlee 1980 to 1985 - I think Hadlee wins for consistency. But Hadlee could not run through opposition like Imran could
3. Fielding - slips would be botham and outfield in his younger years would be Kapil
4. Captaincy - we know the answer to that
5. Six hitting ability - Botham and Kapil and I think Botham wins. He used to hit them longer. Who remembers his sixes to Thompson and Lillee?
6. Toughness - Imran wins
7. X Factor, Unpredictability - Botham and Kapil and I would think that Botham will win again
8. Overall - Has to be Imran. We maybe biased as Pakistani but look at his achievements. No one has re-invented himself so many times and have had so much impact on a nation. Forget the on field stuff but there were other things like neutral umpires, restructuring domestic cricket, etc.

Kapil became a very average player after 1985. Botham was also lost it around 1987 while still in his late 20s. But Imran and Hadlee were a force to reckon with till their late 30s.

 

[Shams123]

Imran was the best. Its not even close. Dont get why even other are mentioned in the same sentence.

 

[umarf76]

Imran was the best. Its not even close. Dont get why even other are mentioned in the same sentence.

It is not so straightforward.

 

[Ab Fan]

Bowling :-

Hadlee
Imran
---------
Kapil/Botham

Batting:-

Botham
Kapil
Imran
Hadlee

Imran averaged about 26 with bat till 1986 or something. Later on, he mostly focussed on batting, and even stopped bowling, which is why he ended with only 362 wickets in 88 tests while Hadlee had 431 wickets in 86 tests. So, Hadlee was clearly a better bowler.

Captaincy:-

Imran
Kapil
------Stop-----

Fielding:-

Kapil/Botham
-----------------
Hadlee
Imran

Overall, Imran was the best cricketer of the four but Kapil and Botham were more pure all-rounders than Khan.

 

[Shams123]

It is not so straightforward.

If you consider the impact, achievements the stature, the team he left and the players he groomed then you will get my point.

 

[Majid Khan]

Seriously even aside from their cricketing abilities - does anyone seriously think Kapil Dev was a more supreme athlete then Imran Khan at his peak ?

Imran in early 80s had a physique most cricketers would have dreamed for ideal for a fast bowler, not just aesthetically but he was physically fit, great stamina and strength through his focus on fitness and gym work including weight training - this is in era where even a few English and Australian players had bellies.

 

[Savak]

Athletes dont bowl at 124 km/hr. Sorry Dev, dont let the BCCI and IPL riches inflate your opinions about yourself.

 

[Majid Khan]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/indiahome/indianews/article-3845538/Working-fitness-DVD-Imran-Pakistan-cricket-legend-Imran-Khan-64-shares-grueling-gym-routine.html

This article includes a video of Imran’s fitness routine in gym at age 64, he’s probably still fitter then most current players in the Pakistan team — there’s another video on YouTube showing him sprinting, doing chin ups and heavy weights well into his 60s also. The guy is a fitness freak , now imagine how supreme an athlete this guy was in his 20s at his peak as a world class sportsman. Kapil Dev was fit for a 80s cricketer but a better athlete then Imran Khan? I’m not so sure.. greater then Botham maybe.

 

[ahmedzee]

I thnk Kapil was pretty good but his bowling pretty much declined post 1983 and he was less an athlete post 1988. Before that he was no doubt on par with the rest of the all rounders.

 

[Zaz]

I hear clive rice and mike proctor were much truer and better all rounders than some of the big 4

Maybe some of the oldies can share their views on this?

 

[Third_Umpire]

Then he is the most athletic trundler in the history of the game

 

[Swashbuckler]

A brilliant outfielder, India's best till Jadeja took the mantle. Azhar was an all round fielder, as an outfielder Kapil was better. His ground coverage was so good that he never had to dive, that catch to dismiss Viv in the 1983 final not many would come near the ball, including today's top fielders.

He never missed a test because of injury/fitness reasons. To do that over such a long career spanning 130 tests, when he was the lone bowling spearhead throughout and had to send in more overs per innings than all his peers, plus the batting, fielding, captaincy, says something.

Also a great runner between wickets, was never run out in tests. When MSD first burst onto the scene Gavaskar compared his running between wickets to that of Kapil, and we know how fast Dhoni was in his 20s.

So he may be on to something.

 

[MMHS]

I think, in terms of flexibility, Kapil indeed was best - he was brilliant in outfield, very good at slip and brilliant in inner circle as well. But, for a fast bowler’s fitness, he was way behind Imran and no comparison with RJH. Kapil’s last great series was 1991-2 Australia tour when officially he was 32, and after that his knees gave up - dragged his career for three years. Hadlee, at 38 still was strong enough to bowl 23-25 overs/day at full pace, while Imran came back from a two years layoff to regain his No. 1 bowling rank at the age of 35.

Kapil indeed was a brilliant athlete but not the fittest guy, neither the strongest (that’s a tie between Imran & Botham).

 

[therealAB]

Must have lacked a lot of technique is he was the best athlete but the worst performer.
Takes a lot more fitness for someone like Imran to run in bowling 140+ than it does for someone to bowl at 130

 

[Bhaijaan]

I hear clive rice and mike proctor were much truer and better all rounders than some of the big 4

Maybe some of the oldies can share their views on this?

I'm not an oldie but Proctor is a legend in first class cricket. Very fast and deceptive in his peak as a bowler, proper match winner and he could bat.

As a bowler alone he is right up there.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Imran has statistics but he doesn't have many iconic knocks to his name as a batter. Kapil and Botham were game changing lower order batsmen. Some of their batting knocks out specialist batsmen to shame

 

[MMHS]

I hear clive rice and mike proctor were much truer and better all rounders than some of the big 4

Maybe some of the oldies can share their views on this?

MJ Procter could have been at least as good an all-rounder as Imran, if not better. But, this is a projection from his 7 Tests career and his performance in Counties. However, Imran was Imran after 20 years and 88 Tests - there are many County greats who couldn’t perform as expected for their County reputation because of the higher standards & diversity of International cricket. For example - playing against India didn’t sound that tough those days, playing in India is all together a different proportion. County games are played on very similar tracks and climate against opponents with similar skill set, International cricket is different with local umpires in those days.

I think, Procter was a County legend and a great loss to the game, one unfulfilled ATG career - he (& BA Richards) should be respected for that without going to comparison.

Clive Rice was a very good middle order batsman who could bowl fast medium to medium fast - he was very similar to Kallis in terms of type, but don’t think he was much better than Brian McMillan or may be Carl Hooper.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I think, in terms of flexibility, Kapil indeed was best - he was brilliant in outfield, very good at slip and brilliant in inner circle as well. But, for a fast bowler’s fitness, he was way behind Imran and no comparison with RJH. Kapil’s last great series was 1991-2 Australia tour when officially he was 32, and after that his knees gave up - dragged his career for three years. Hadlee, at 38 still was strong enough to bowl 23-25 overs/day at full pace, while Imran came back from a two years layoff to regain his No. 1 bowling rank at the age of 35.

Kapil indeed was a brilliant athlete but not the fittest guy, neither the strongest (that’s a tie between Imran & Botham).

How many tests did Hadlee play by the age of 38 and how many had Kapil played by 1990?

Kapil was over by late 80s. Literally run to the ground by the sheer work load. He was the only world class bowler India had in the 80s. India didnt have a really good spinner in 80s. Thats how overloaded Kapil was.

 

[Hawkeye]

I watched Imran and Kapil bowl together for the Rest vs MCC, and Imran was the athlete while Kaoil looked rather.... waddling.

Yep. Pretty straightforward and always good to have a perspective from those who actually watched the thing.

Imran was fitter and had a lot more strength and stamina too. True fast bowler.

Dev no doubt was also fit, but didn't have the same strength and stamina.

 

[Savak]

Lol, by the end of Kapil Devs career, almost everyone was harping when will this guy retire and leave, that's how much he had dragged his career unnecessarily

 

[Invincible Gujjar]

LOL this trundler think too high of himself. He should not be mentioned alongside other 3 .Imran is GOAT and this trundler comparing himself to Imran.LOL

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Considering that he was the best fielder while others like imran refused to field I would say yes kapil was the best and the only one of them who could match the LOI fielding standards in modern cricket.

As for botham.LOL the guy was a chubby fatty and drank wine the whole day.I read an interview where he made fun of players who trained hard.

Imran ,hadlee and kapil were proper athelete s but kapil was without a doubt the best fielder out of 'em

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

LOL this trundler think too high of himself. He should not be mentioned alongside other 3 .Imran is GOAT and this trundler comparing himself to Imran.LOL

Imran isn't GOAT not by a long shot.

Seriously folks, get your pet peeves in while you can, but let's not exaggerate.

 

[Ab Fan]

Considering that he was the best fielder while others like imran refused to field I would say yes kapil was the best and the only one of them who could match the LOI fielding standards in modern cricket.

As for botham.LOL the guy was a chubby fatty and drank wine the whole day.I read an interview where he made fun of players who trained hard.

Imran ,hadlee and kapil were proper athelete s but kapil was without a doubt the best fielder out of 'em

I agree. Spot on.

 

[Local.Dada]

Kapil had won a wc and played one of the clutch odi innings of all time by the time he turned 24. 2-3 years in won a series in England and the World Series of cricket. By age 26-27 he had already accomplished a lot, so maybe he took the foot of the gas.

May be there was a lot more at stake for Imran which motivated him to put in the hard yards.

Imran had to play and play till he was 40 odd to get that WC dream. Worked out well for him though . My memories of Imran was a part time bowler and a night watch man type bat but I am not forming my opinion based on that like a lot of people are on watching Kapil on his last legs.

 

[Majid Khan]

Kapil had won a wc and played one of the clutch odi innings of all time by the time he turned 24. 2-3 years in won a series in England and the World Series of cricket. By age 26-27 he had already accomplished a lot, so maybe he took the foot of the gas.

May be there was a lot more at stake for Imran which motivated him to put in the hard yards.

Imran had to play and play till he was 40 odd to get that WC dream. Worked out well for him though . My memories of Imran was a part time bowler and a night watch man type bat but I am not forming my opinion based on that like a lot of people are on watching Kapil on his last legs.

Correct me if I’m wrong but even if you watched Kapil Dev’s whole career in test cricket , was he at any point a fast bowler with an an average below 25 and ripped apart batting line ups (which the very best fast bowlers achieved) or a batsman averaging close to 50? Imran Khan’s record as a fast bowler speaks for itself with one of the best bowling averages for bowlers with greater than 300 test wickets - and as a batsman he averaged 50 as captain.

That’s hardly the part time bowler and night watchman batsman you recall.

 

[Extra_Cover]

 

[Majid Khan]

View attachment 102501

Thanks that sums up the points in my last post. A great fast bowler who for a good part of his career was good enough to be selected as a specialist batsman was Imran.

Personally I think when we compare with ATG batsmen and bowlers then someone who has a career test average of 30 with both bat and ball does not really belong in that category, even if his first name is Kapil and surname is Dev.

He gave some memorable and great performances ‘on the day’, which for that matter as did Afridi.

 

[therealAB]

Thanks that sums up the points in my last post. A great fast bowler who for a good part of his career was good enough to be selected as a specialist batsman was Imran.

Personally I think when we compare with ATG batsmen and bowlers then someone who has a career test average of 30 with both bat and ball does not really belong in that category, even if his first name is Kapil and surname is Dev.

He gave some memorable and great performances ‘on the day’, which for that matter as did Afridi.

Agreed, Chris Cairns is a better comparison than people like Sobers/Kallis/Imran/Miller

 

[cricketjoshila]

Thanks that sums up the points in my last post. A great fast bowler who for a good part of his career was good enough to be selected as a specialist batsman was Imran.

Personally I think when we compare with ATG batsmen and bowlers then someone who has a career test average of 30 with both bat and ball does not really belong in that category, even if his first name is Kapil and surname is Dev.

He gave some memorable and great performances ‘on the day’, which for that matter as did Afridi.

Kapil Dev was ranked number one ODI AR for 10 years straight.

Afridi isnt good enough to tie his shoe laces.

Imran was a better player, but he was nowhere near good enough to be selected as a specialist batsman.

 

[Local.Dada]

Kapil Dev was ranked number one ODI AR for 10 years straight.

Afridi isnt good enough to tie his shoe laces.

Imran was a better player, but he was nowhere near good enough to be selected as a specialist batsman.

Also for what it’s worth Imran’s bowling figures improved dramatically after the “invention” of reverse swing.

 

[Local.Dada]

Correct me if I’m wrong but even if you watched Kapil Dev’s whole career in test cricket , was he at any point a fast bowler with an an average below 25 and ripped apart batting line ups (which the very best fast bowlers achieved) or a batsman averaging close to 50? Imran Khan’s record as a fast bowler speaks for itself with one of the best bowling averages for bowlers with greater than 300 test wickets - and as a batsman he averaged 50 as captain.

That’s hardly the part time bowler and night watchman batsman you recall.

Who cares if Kapil bowled at 125 clicks. At one point of time he was the highest wicket taker in both odis and tests. Now sure as an Indian fan even I will admit that Kapil over stayed by at least 2-3 years chasing the record. So numbers and stats mean zilch.

The 83 WC win changed the face of cricket to make it what it is today. 4 years from that win,subcontinent was hosting the World Cup.

I don’t care how much Imran Khan bashed India with ball swinging in mysteriously by a mile but Kapil changed cricket. Imran was a great player and a great captain no problem admitting that but I don’t recollect one outstanding Imran knock or spell that is still being talked about today.

Kapil played one of the greatest odi knock of all time

He had the best record against the greatest team of his generation among allrounders.

He was the best SC bowler in Australia.

Imran is the Kallis to Kapil‘s Stokes. One was a consistent player, the other a impact player and match winner.

 

[Invincible Gujjar]

Imran isn't GOAT not by a long shot.

Seriously folks, get your pet peeves in while you can, but let's not exaggerate.

he is the GOAT what more do you want.One of the best bowler ever Top 5! capable enough batsman and one of the greatest captain ever and greatest leader ever.He is the GOAT.Indians opinion don't matter keep them to yourself.

 

[Invincible Gujjar]

People don't even know this trundler Kapil dev and I don't think I have ever seen people picking him in their dream 11 but people pick imran and that too as Captain.It's an insult to Imran this trundler is being compared to him

 

[Local.Dada]

People don't even know this trundler Kapil dev and I don't think I have ever seen people picking him in their dream 11 but people pick imran and that too as Captain.It's an insult to Imran this trundler is being compared to him

If as a cricket fan you have not heard of Kapil Dev then I guess that’s a reflection on that person lol.

The reason Indian cricket is what it is today or the reason why even PCB still has a presence in cricket world is thanks to the 83 WC win.

It’s not an exaggeration when I say that most SC cricket boards should have a picture of Kapil Dev and the 83 squad in their offices.

The 92 win might mean a lot to Pakistanis and it should but you have no idea the impact of 83 win on world cricket.

So making these condescending statements might get you a few brownie points from your other friends here but it is hurting your own credibility as a cricket fan lol. I mean people might just gloss over your opinions going forward even if they cheer you for this. Free advice for the day

 

[Majid Khan]

Test cricket is real and ‘proper’ cricket as far as I’m concerned when you are comparing the very best of all time - and here’s a useful summary of their performances if comparing Imran v Kapil :-

Lets 1st compare their bowling figures .

Bowling Average in Tests

Imran Khan: 22.81

Kapil Dev: 29.65

Clearly, Imran is the winner here. Points: Imran 1 Kapil 0

Bowling Strike rate in Tests

Imran Khan: 53.75

Kapil Dev: 63.92

Points: Imran 2, Kapil 0

Economy Rate in Tests

Imran Khan: 2.55

Kapil Dev: 2.78

Points: Imran 3, Kapil 0


Batting figures :-

Batting Average in test

Imran Khan: 37.69

Kapil Dev: 31.05

Points: Imran 4, Kapil 0


And as captain / leader?

The whole world acknowledges Imran as a greater captain and leader.

Points: Imran 5, Kapil 0

Numbers don’t lie I’m afraid chaps.

 

[Swashbuckler]

On an average Shami bowls at least 7-8 kph faster than Anderson, Grandhomme, Holder etc. Does that mean he is fitter than them? Was Shoaib Akhtar fitter than Shaun Pollock? Or Shane Bond over Boult?

 

[Ab Fan]

Test cricket is real and ‘proper’ cricket as far as I’m concerned when you are comparing the very best of all time - and here’s a useful summary of their performances if comparing Imran v Kapil :-

Lets 1st compare their bowling figures .

Bowling Average in Tests

Imran Khan: 22.81

Kapil Dev: 29.65

Clearly, Imran is the winner here. Points: Imran 1 Kapil 0

Bowling Strike rate in Tests

Imran Khan: 53.75

Kapil Dev: 63.92

Points: Imran 2, Kapil 0

Economy Rate in Tests

Imran Khan: 2.55

Kapil Dev: 2.78

Points: Imran 3, Kapil 0


Batting figures :-

Batting Average in test

Imran Khan: 37.69

Kapil Dev: 31.05

Points: Imran 4, Kapil 0


And as captain / leader?

The whole world acknowledges Imran as a greater captain and leader.

Points: Imran 5, Kapil 0

<B>Numbers don’t lie I’m afraid chaps.</B>

Hmmm.

Sir Ravindra Jadeja

Bowl Avg:- 24
Bat Avg:- 35

A great fielder as well.

Numbers don't lie

 

[sshakir411]

This would have more meaning if it came from players he played with and not himself.

 

[Local.Dada]

This would have more meaning if it came from players he played with and not himself.

I am assuming you don’t follow pretty much 90% of Pakistan cricket alumni on YouTube.

 

[Majid Khan]

Hmmm.

Sir Ravindra Jadeja

Bowl Avg:- 24
Bat Avg:- 35

A great fielder as well.

Numbers don't lie

And what exactly is your point, that Ravindra Jadeja also belongs in the category of Imran / Botham / Hadlee along with Kapil ?

Pretty good stats for Jadeja if you ask me, although clearly this is a different era and difficult to compare but indeed I will have no hesitation in accepting Jadeja is a far superior all rounder then Hafeez despite the latter being Pakistani and me being his biggest fan on PakPassion as everyone knows there you have it, no patriotism comes in the way for me to accept there’s an Indian all rounder who is better than Hafeez - likewise it should be the same on the part of Indian fans to accept that Kapil Dev for all his popularity and entertainment value, was certainly neither an ATG as a bowler or batsman, and yes he was a decent all rounder but again averaging 30 with the bat and ball doesn’t exactly make you stand up and applaud his achievements. He was simply not of the calibre of Imran Khan in either discipline of batting or bowling in test cricket, period. As for being a superior athlete, well not convinced on that either frankly, only one out of Imran and Kapil had the fitness, physique and athleticism needed to be a genuine fast bowler , you can guess which one.

 

[King_Kohli]

Kapil Dev was ranked number one ODI AR for 10 years straight.

wow..this is really great achievement
Could you please provide duration.

 

[Ab Fan]

And what exactly is your point, that Ravindra Jadeja also belongs in the category of Imran / Botham / Hadlee along with Kapil ?

Pretty good stats for Jadeja if you ask me, although clearly this is a different era and difficult to compare but indeed I will have no hesitation in accepting Jadeja is a far superior all rounder then Hafeez despite the latter being Pakistani and me being his biggest fan on PakPassion as everyone knows there you have it, no patriotism comes in the way for me to accept there’s an Indian all rounder who is better than Hafeez - likewise it should be the same on the part of Indian fans to accept that Kapil Dev for all his popularity and entertainment value, was certainly neither an ATG as a bowler or batsman, and yes he was a decent all rounder but again averaging 30 with the bat and ball doesn’t exactly make you stand up and applaud his achievements. He was simply not of the calibre of Imran Khan in either discipline of batting or bowling in test cricket, period. As for being a superior athlete, well not convinced on that either frankly, only one out of Imran and Kapil had the fitness, physique and athleticism needed to be a genuine fast bowler , you can guess which one.

Nothing, just trying to suggest that numbers can lie and stats aren't everything.

Jadeja is a very good all-rounder but not an ATG like Kapil Dev even though those stats are ATG level. You are underrating Dev's batting ability. Dev has played some freak ATG knocks with bat against top attacks while Imran was Hadlee level batsmen till about his 50 tests and then got lot better with bat but his stats are inflated with a lot of not-outs like 30 odd.

As a bowler, Imran is probably a couple of levels ahead but as a batsmen, Kapil was arguably better than Imran let alone in his calibre (lol) and those who have watched both throughout their career know it well.

Imran was probably better captain although Kapil was great as well but Kapil was far better fielder than him. If you want to undermine a player due to stats, then same can be done the other way round as well. Hafeez is the best since Bradman though, no comparisons

 

[Majid Khan]

Nothing, just trying to suggest that numbers can lie and stats aren't everything.

Jadeja is a very good all-rounder but not an ATG like Kapil Dev even though those stats are ATG level. You are underrating Dev's batting ability. Dev has played some freak ATG knocks with bat against top attacks while Imran was Hadlee level batsmen till about his 50 tests and then got lot better with bat but his stats are inflated with a lot of not-outs like 30 odd.

As a bowler, Imran is probably a couple of levels ahead but as a batsmen, Kapil was arguably better than Imran let alone in his calibre (lol) and those who have watched both throughout their career know it well.

Imran was probably better captain although Kapil was great as well but Kapil was far better fielder than him. If you want to undermine a player due to stats, then same can be done the other way round as well. Hafeez is the best since Bradman though, no comparisons

Imran averages 37 with the bat in test cricket and Kapil averages 31, and they played in the same era , and you claim that Kapil was a better batsman out of the two?

As far as Imran’s batting average improving in the later part of his career , so should that not count ? Does that mean Imran is an inferior cricketer because he not only focused on but actually improved his batting in the later part of his career once he was past his peak as a fast bowler, to become Pakistan’s most dependable test batsman alongside Miandad. As for average being inflated due to not outs, isn’t that the idea behind batting average , how many runs one scored before being dismissed on average ? Being not out regularly as a middle order batsman while the rest of the batting line up falls apart around you shows you have something that they clearly lack - technique and determination.

 

[Abdullah719]

wow..this is really great achievement
Could you please provide duration.

From 1983 to 1994 barring around one year from 87-88.

 

[Abdullah719]

Imran averages 37 with the bat in test cricket and Kapil averages 31, and they played in the same era , and you claim that Kapil was a better batsman out of the two?

As far as Imran’s batting average improving in the later part of his career , so should that not count ? Does that mean Imran is an inferior cricketer because he not only focused on but actually improved his batting in the later part of his career once he was past his peak as a fast bowler, to become Pakistan’s most dependable test batsman alongside Miandad. As for average being inflated due to not outs, isn’t that the idea behind batting average , how many runs one scored before being dismissed on average ? Being not out regularly as a middle order batsman while the rest of the batting line up falls apart around you shows you have something that they clearly lack - technique and determination.

Kapil’s highest ranking as a batsman was number 21 while it was number 12 for IK. Botham at his peak scaled much greater heights, reaching number 3.

 

[King_Kohli]

From 1983 to 1994 barring around one year from 87-88.

Thanks Bro

 

[tyron_woodley]

imran is the best
kapil number 2.

 

[Majid Khan]

Kapil’s highest ranking as a batsman was number 21 while it was number 12 for IK. Botham at his peak scaled much greater heights, reaching number 3.

Ian Botham’s career was one of two halves - he faded away and lost it in the second half but his performances and stats in his first 50 tests are quite remarkable, where he averaged in low 20s as a pace bowler.


The fact of the matter is if one uses the benchmark of very best fast bowlers averaging in low 20s and top batsman averaging near or over 50 , all three of Imran, Botham, Hadlee belonged here in one discipline at least (bowling) for an extended period in their career.

Kapil’s bowling and batting averages in tests after 50 tests is actually not too different from his final stats , averaging around 30 mark with bat and ball , which clearly puts him in a lower tier as a bowler then Imran/Hadlee/Botham(first 50 tests). To be fair anyone who watched their bowling during that era will not need any stats to convince them either that Kapil was not in the league of Imran/Hadlee/Botham (first half).

In the case of Imran it’s truly a great achievement that once he realised his peak as a fast bowler was over , he still maintained his overall test bowling average till the end of his career and focused instead on captaincy and his own batting averaging close to 50 as a batsman during captaincy if I’m not mistaken.

In the case of Kapil, he clearly made the most of his abilities and maintained his bat and bowling average close to 30 throughout his career.. and definitely any player who can contribute like that with both bat and ball with always be invaluable, but I repeat he’s not in the same league as the others.

 

[tyron_woodley]

hadlee is the best out of all actually. he carried a far weaker team single handedly.

 

[Majid Khan]

Talking about legendary Indian all rounders,I was just looking at the career test stats of Kapil’s old colleague Madan Lal and was impressed for a minute thinking he did better then what I remembered of him - until I realised I was reading it wrong, it was his batting average in low 20s and bowling average in 40s and not the other way around.

 

[Ab Fan]

Ian Botham’s career was one of two halves - he faded away and lost it in the second half but his performances and stats in his first 50 tests are quite remarkable, where he averaged in low 20s as a pace bowler.


The fact of the matter is if one uses the benchmark of very best fast bowlers averaging in low 20s and top batsman averaging near or over 50 , all three of Imran, Botham, Hadlee belonged here in one discipline at least (bowling) for an extended period in their career.

Kapil’s bowling and batting averages in tests after 50 tests is actually not too different from his final stats , averaging around 30 mark with bat and ball , which clearly puts him in a lower tier as a bowler then Imran/Hadlee/Botham(first 50 tests). To be fair anyone who watched their bowling during that era will not need any stats to convince them either that Kapil was not in the league of Imran/Hadlee/Botham (first half).

In the case of Imran it’s truly a great achievement that once he realised his peak as a fast bowler was over , he still maintained his overall test bowling average till the end of his career and focused instead on captaincy and his own batting averaging close to 50 as a batsman during captaincy if I’m not mistaken.

In the case of Kapil, he clearly made the most of his abilities and maintained his bat and bowling average close to 30 throughout his career.. and definitely any player who can contribute like that with both bat and ball with always be invaluable, but I repeat he’s not in the same league as the others.

I agree with most of your points here(as you explained the bowling part) except that Kapil's batting was of a 30 average level and he was not in their league. You are forgetting the strike rate part here, Kapil had a SR of 80+.

Why is Viv considered a GOAT batsmen? He averaged 50 in tests which was lesser than all his major contemporaries- Gavaskar, Chappell, Border and Miandad and he didn't even had to play many great bowlers as most of them were in his team. It's simply because of the shock factor and his destructive hitting ability.

In a same way, when you think of Kapil Dev- the batsmen, some of his innings have been ATGesque.

122 vs Donald and co in SA when India were 31-6.

55 ball 87 in England vs Botham & Willis.

95 ball 100 in Windies 83 vs Marshall Holding, Garner and Roberts

119 in a tied match vs Australia.

175* in a WC semi final match.

When you consider that he led his team to win a World Cup in 1983 and stood up against the best team of that era with performance from both bat and bowl, change the dynamics of game in Indian cricket and look at some of his ODI innings, there is no doubt that he was a freak of batsmen and was in a league of his contemporaries.

Ofcourse, in that league, it can be argued that Kapil was probably the last of them in tests but in ODIs, he was arguably the best. All in all, an ATG without any shadow of doubt.

 

[Varun]

How modest, Kapil.

 

[tyron_woodley]

I agree with most of your points here(as you explained the bowling part) except that Kapil's batting was of a 30 average level and he was not in their league. You are forgetting the strike rate part here, Kapil had a SR of 80+.

Why is Viv considered a GOAT batsmen? He averaged 50 in tests which was lesser than all his major contemporaries- Gavaskar, Chappell, Border and Miandad and he didn't even had to play many great bowlers as most of them were in his team. It's simply because of the shock factor and his destructive hitting ability.

In a same way, when you think of Kapil Dev- the batsmen, some of his innings have been ATGesque.

122 vs Donald and co in SA when India were 31-6.

55 ball 87 in England vs Botham & Willis.

95 ball 100 in Windies 83 vs Marshall Holding, Garner and Roberts

119 in a tied match vs Australia.

175* in a WC semi final match.

When you consider that he led his team to win a World Cup in 1983 and stood up against the best team of that era with performance from both bat and bowl, change the dynamics of game in Indian cricket and look at some of his ODI innings, there is no doubt that he was a freak of batsmen and was in a league of his contemporaries.

Ofcourse, in that league, it can be argued that Kapil was probably the last of them in tests but in ODIs, he was arguably the best. All in all, an ATG without any shadow of doubt.

above botham but below imran and hadlee in tests. I agree.
in odi he was the best. Test cricket is real cricket though so.....number 3 it is.

 

[Majid Khan]

I agree with most of your points here(as you explained the bowling part) except that Kapil's batting was of a 30 average level and he was not in their league. You are forgetting the strike rate part here, Kapil had a SR of 80+.

Why is Viv considered a GOAT batsmen? He averaged 50 in tests which was lesser than all his major contemporaries- Gavaskar, Chappell, Border and Miandad and he didn't even had to play many great bowlers as most of them were in his team. It's simply because of the shock factor and his destructive hitting ability.

In a same way, when you think of Kapil Dev- the batsmen, some of his innings have been ATGesque.

122 vs Donald and co in SA when India were 31-6.

55 ball 87 in England vs Botham & Willis.

95 ball 100 in Windies 83 vs Marshall Holding, Garner and Roberts

119 in a tied match vs Australia.

175* in a WC semi final match.

When you consider that he led his team to win a World Cup in 1983 and stood up against the best team of that era with performance from both bat and bowl, change the dynamics of game in Indian cricket and look at some of his ODI innings, there is no doubt that he was a freak of batsmen and was in a league of his contemporaries.

Ofcourse, in that league, it can be argued that Kapil was probably the last of them in tests but in ODIs, he was arguably the best. All in all, an ATG without any shadow of doubt.

Ok moving on a bit on this discussion, not that I rate cricketers on ODI stats alone but you claim Kapil Dev was arguably the best of the quartet of all rounders in ODI cricket ?

Let’s compare averages of Imran v Kapil in ODIs this time :

Batting
Imran - 33.41
Kapil - 23.79

Result: Imran 1, Kapil 0

Bowling
Imran - 26.61
Kapil - 27.45

Result: Imran 2, Kapil 0

Botham also has ODI batting average of 23, so that’s a significant difference in career ODI batting average of 10 runs between Imran and those of Botham/Kapil.

Ok so you might claim Batting strike rate was higher for Kapil, but then don’t forget Imran was a versatile batsman who could defend and attack , and in a fragile Pakistani batting line up his priority was more often than not to defend and hold up an end while others fell all around him. Otherwise if it’s all about strike rate regardless of average, then don’t forget Shahid Afridi who also averages 23 - yes same as Botham/Kapil and boasts an even higher strike rate.

Anyway not questioning Kapil’s credentials but to call him number 1 in ODI cricket with batting/bowling averages given above v Imran Is not exactly backed up by his averages.

 

[Bewal Express]

Kepil was an excellent swing bowler with good pace in his early days, somewhere in the range 83-85mph. By the mid 80s, he was down to at best 80mph and more likely in the 77-78 mph. As a Batsman he was very talented, but he became the king of the cameos, a nice 30 with 6 4s was often the type of innings he played.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Ok moving on a bit on this discussion, not that I rate cricketers on ODI stats alone but you claim Kapil Dev was arguably the best of the quartet of all rounders in ODI cricket ?

Let’s compare averages of Imran v Kapil in ODIs this time :

Batting
Imran - 33.41
Kapil - 23.79

Result: Imran 1, Kapil 0

Bowling
Imran - 26.61
Kapil - 27.45

Result: Imran 2, Kapil 0

Botham also has ODI batting average of 23, so that’s a significant difference in career ODI batting average of 10 runs between Imran and those of Botham/Kapil.

Ok so you might claim Batting strike rate was higher for Kapil, but then don’t forget Imran was a versatile batsman who could defend and attack , and in a fragile Pakistani batting line up his priority was more often than not to defend and hold up an end while others fell all around him. Otherwise if it’s all about strike rate regardless of average, then don’t forget Shahid Afridi who also averages 23 - yes same as Botham/Kapil and boasts an even higher strike rate.

Anyway not questioning Kapil’s credentials but to call him number 1 in ODI cricket with batting/bowling averages given above v Imran Is not exactly backed up by his averages.

imran played for a stronger team. kapil carried a far,far weaker team single handedly.

philander averages 22 with the ball. he is now greater than wasim?

stats don't reveal the entire story.

 

[Ab Fan]

Ok moving on a bit on this discussion, not that I rate cricketers on ODI stats alone but you claim Kapil Dev was arguably the best of the quartet of all rounders in ODI cricket ?

Let’s compare averages of Imran v Kapil in ODIs this time :

Batting
Imran - 33.41
Kapil - 23.79

Result: Imran 1, Kapil 0

Bowling
Imran - 26.61
Kapil - 27.45

Result: Imran 2, Kapil 0

Botham also has ODI batting average of 23, so that’s a significant difference in career ODI batting average of 10 runs between Imran and those of Botham/Kapil.

Ok so you might claim Batting strike rate was higher for Kapil, but then don’t forget Imran was a versatile batsman who could defend and attack , and in a fragile Pakistani batting line up his priority was more often than not to defend and hold up an end while others fell all around him. Otherwise if it’s all about strike rate regardless of average, then don’t forget Shahid Afridi who also averages 23 - yes same as Botham/Kapil and boasts an even higher strike rate.

Anyway not questioning Kapil’s credentials but to call him number 1 in ODI cricket with batting/bowling averages given above v Imran Is not exactly backed up by his averages.

You can go through the ICC rankings throughout that decade for ODIs and you will get the idea yourself. Comparing their batting in ODIs is similar to comparing Jadeja's ODI batting with Afridi

 

[Majid Khan]

imran played for a stronger team. kapil carried a far,far weaker team single handedly.

philander averages 22 with the ball. he is now greater than wasim?

stats don't reveal the entire story.

It depends how you look at it - yes Imran played for a stronger team because it had Imran Khan in it first and foremost as captain and all rounder , and of course Pakistan had stronger bowling attack. At the same time Pakistani had a weaker batting line up then India in that era even, that would have given Kapil the luxury of going out and playing with freedom.

As far as Philander v Wasim , they played in different eras and even if Philander was averaging 17 with the ball taking as many wickets as Wasim averaging 23 then you could argue.

When you compare Imran v Kapil as the figures I’ve given, apart from bowling in ODI where the average does not differ much and Imran edges slightly - otherwise there is a significant difference in averages with bat and ball that you can’t ignore for players from the same era. A difference in batting average of 10 runs shows a gulf in class between two players. Or difference in test bowling average of 7-8 again highlights one is of a higher calibre.

 

[tyron_woodley]

It depends how you look at it - yes Imran played for a stronger team because it had Imran Khan in it first and foremost as captain and all rounder , and of course Pakistan had stronger bowling attack. At the same time Pakistani had a weaker batting line up then India in that era even, that would have given Kapil the luxury of going out and playing with freedom.

As far as Philander v Wasim , they played in different eras and even if Philander was averaging 17 with the ball taking as many wickets as Wasim averaging 23 then you could argue.

When you compare Imran v Kapil as the figures I’ve given, apart from bowling in ODI where the average does not differ much and Imran edges slightly - otherwise there is a significant difference in averages with bat and ball that you can’t ignore for players from the same era. A difference in batting average of 10 runs shows a gulf in class between two players. Or difference in test bowling average of 7-8 again highlights one is of a higher calibre.

kapil had no bowling partner of Pakistan's calibre to support him so yes it matters just as much. Bowlers hunt in pairs.

I am.not denying that imran is the best in tests. kapil probably number 3 from that era after imran and hadlee.

In odi I believe kapil had more match winning innings in crucial games compared to imran.

Not really with regards to Vernon. Its harder to maintain a lower average in the modern era due to rule changes that favour the batsmen. Wasim is the better bowler by miles but stats don't reveal the whole story.

I think it's applicable to the imran vs kapil odi debate. Maybe imran batted conservatively to hold an end like you said. India dint exactly have a better batting attack though in the 80s and early 90.s

pakistam had several solid players. saeed anwar, mudasser, salim malik, imran khan etc and a couple others that I am missing are all quality.

India had nobody of that calibre at the time.

the burden of carrying all the weight on your shoulders wears you down when you lack support from your bowling partners as was the case with kapil.

if kapil played with safrfraz etc his average would have been significantly lower as pressure would build up from both ends which could potentially force an error from the batsmen.

 

[Cryin Out Loud]

he is the GOAT what more do you want.One of the best bowler ever Top 5! capable enough batsman and one of the greatest captain ever and greatest leader ever.He is the GOAT.Indians opinion don't matter keep them to yourself.

1. Garfield Sobers
2. If you want to debate maybe you can make factual statements and resist debating as a hyped up teenager? ("Indian opinions don't matter" etc)

 

[Slog]

Lol is he hanging out with Shoaib Akhtar too much )

 

[Slog]

James Anderson of his era
+ Batting calibre and clutch knock ability of Ben Stokes/ Klusener
+world cup winning captain

The most explosive batsman of his era who in his prime took apart even the West Indian pace quartet

Kapil Dev is massively underappreciated and rather disrespected on PP time and again.

He was quite clearly THE stand out cricketer of his era against West Indies among the great ARs.

BATTING:

Kapil Dev averages 30.8 against West Indies and 28.75 in WI

Wasim Raja averages 57.4 against West Indies and an unbelievable 57.44 IN West Indies.

BOWLING:

Kapil Dev averages 24 against WI and 23 in WI

Wasim Raja averages 27.8 against WI and a barely believable under 19 IN WI.


Using your metrics of judgement - there is NO greater all rounder than Wasim Raja.

 

[Slog]

From the FAB 4 of Imran, Kapil, Hadlee and Botham

Hadlee was the greatest bowler followed by Imran very closely and then Kapil and Botham at similar level. However the gap between 1 and 2 is much smaller than 2 and 3/4. Hadlee and Imran could actually be same.

As batsman, it has to be Botham despite Imran having the highest average. Imran's second half of career was great for him as a batsman but still he did not have the game changing ability as regularly as Botham. Eeven Kapil I would put same or slightly higher as a batsman than Imran solely because when Kapil fired he could take the game much further along compared to Imran.

Overall as allrounders I would put Botham and Imran on a similar level. Till perhaps last year I would have put Imran far ahead of Botham as overall all rounders but recent times I have really understood the value of Ian Botham

 

[ManFan]

Bullocks; Hadlee was the supreme athlete of that time.

Kapil, was a close second tied with Richards.

 

[Buffet]

Lol is he hanging out with Shoaib Akhtar too much )

+1

Seems that way.

 

[Robert]

James Anderson of his era
+ Batting calibre and clutch knock ability of Ben Stokes/ Klusener
+world cup winning captain

The most explosive batsman of his era who in his prime took apart even the West Indian pace quartet

Kapil Dev is massively underappreciated and rather disrespected on PP time and again.

He was quite clearly THE stand out cricketer of his era against West Indies among the great ARs.

He did get two centuries against WI but these were against weakened attacks. Clarke was the only top class bowler in the first century, and a young Walsh and Patterson in the second.

 

[Proactive_]

He did get two centuries against WI but these were against weakened attacks. Clarke was the only top class bowler in the first century, and a young Walsh and Patterson in the second.

Actually his century at Port of Spain 1983 was against the menacing quartet of Holding, Roberts, Marshall and Garner, off 95 balls I might add.

 

[PakLFC]

Kapil was the best batsman and fielder amongst them. If fielding equals being the best athlete then he probably was that. Beefy was a decent bat and great slip fielder. Richard was a brilliant bowler, decent batsman and average fielder. IK a great leader and bowler, defensive lower order batsman and at best average fielder. He was too afraid to get his whites dirty in front of the ladies All had their strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Ab Fan]

Actually his century at Port of Spain 1983 was against the menacing quartet of Holding, Roberts, Marshall and Garner, off 95 balls I might add.

Kapil Dev test century in SA vs Donald and this one at Port of Spain are arguably two ATG performances with the bat.

 

[PakLFC]

This is Kapil's new look! Oh my days!! His stylist definitely needs a good telling off! To think that he's much younger then Imran Khan!!

 

[Robert]

Actually his century at Port of Spain 1983 was against the menacing quartet of Holding, Roberts, Marshall and Garner, off 95 balls I might add.

Ah, I beg his pardon, I forgot that he got that third century.

 

[tyron_woodley]

calling someone a great player due to sheer hard work is just plain distasteful as it undermines their natural talent. It just evokes a sense of jealousy.

 

[Proactive_]

calling someone a great player due to sheer hard work is just plain distasteful as it undermines their natural talent. It just evokes a sense of jealousy.

Why would you think it's distasteful? Talent is not in your hands, hard work is. I'd consider it a much much bigger compliment to say about someone that they became great at something by their hard work rather than riding on their "talent". It shows their determination and discipline to overcome natural inadequacies to attain success at the highest level.