Was Ian Botham a better allrounder than Imran Khan in his peak era?

[Bilal7]

So where are we in this great debate? Was Botham ever better than Imran's 50+, <20, 10 years?

 

[IndianWillow]

i don't think your statements are enough to prove that had he played some 100 tests in a variety of playing conditions that included Asia he would have maintained the same averages like those he achieved at the end of 55 tests.this is because normal norms in cricket forces me to think so.
these are the general norms - the higher the longevity tougher it will be to maintain your standards till the end of the career. the larger the no: of playing countries , more difficult will it be to maintain your avg: in all countries.there may be exceptions to these but then exceptions are always much rarer from normal.

eg: Ponting for all his brilliance couldn't even avg: 30 in India
FAB 4 all rounders all had their bogey countries be it in batting or bowling or both.
Botham's first part of career was brilliant, 2nd half exactly the opposite.
similarly a lot of examples can be traced out

Bowlers in general, are respected even if they don't do well every where. Bowling in alien conditions is harder than batting in alien conditions. Bowlers often tend to underperform away even if the conditions are more favourable compared to home conditions, but this does not happen frequently with batsmen.

 

[Robert]

i don't think your statements are enough to prove that had he played some 100 tests in a variety of playing conditions that included Asia he would have maintained the same averages like those he achieved at the end of 55 tests.this is because normal norms in cricket forces me to think so.

Nobody played 100 tests in those days. By your criterion, nobody who played before the 1990s was any good except Boycott.

Moreover, Miller played on a wide variety of tracks including sticky dogs (which you do not see today) and Asian-style bunsens, because the wickets were uncovered. I doubt that any Asian track has ever taken more spin than Headingley '56, for example.

As I say - read books to learn historical context - don't just go by the numbers.

 

[Feroz Rawther]

Nobody played 100 tests in those days. By your criterion, nobody who played before the 1990s was any good except Boycott.

Moreover, Miller played on a wide variety of tracks including sticky dogs (which you do not see today) and Asian-style bunsens, because the wickets were uncovered. I doubt that any Asian track has ever taken more spin than Headingley '56, for example.

As I say - read books to learn historical context - don't just go by the numbers.

first of all i didn't say that players of the past all were very bad .my criterion only meant that i can't accept that Keith Miller is the 3rd best all rounder.

then w.r.t Miller's playing conditions yes i agree that he too might had his own challenges.
but we must not forget that 80s and 90s posed a lot of challenges too.which is the toughest of these 2 , we can't conclusively tell. but one thing we can tell from practically going thru the motions of the game is those 2 criteria that i pointed in my first msg.Of these whether Miller would have been surely a success in ASIA over a prolonged period of time... we can't say authoritatively.similarly whether he would have maintained his high standards over say atleast 75 tests... that too we can't tell. but going by the probablities of those happening i would not rate Miller than a Kapil or Botham. but no doubt he was a great of the game.

 

[MenInG]

Ian Botham praises ex-Pakistan captain Imran Khan

Ian Botham was recently involved in an online chat session with the Playwrite Foundation. In the session, the esteemed cricketer revealed that it was a “privilege” for him to play alongside legendary fellow all-rounders like Kapil Dev, Imran Khan and Richard Hadlee. He believes that international cricket has never witnessed that many quality all-rounders rubbing shoulders against each other during the same era. Botham also described the competitive nature among those cricketers and said that he used to have a “great rivalry” with them during his playing days.

In the interview, the 64-year old also said that he has not met Imran Khan for a long time. Khan, who led Pakistan to victory at the 1992 World Cup in Australia, is currently the Prime Minister of Pakistan. Ian Botham described Imran Khan as the “most charismatic” all-rounder out of the quartet.

https://m.republicworld.com/sports-...-charismatic-than-kapil-dev-cricket-news.html

 

[Bewal Express]

Botham hit his peak in 81, and then became overweight. His bowling was pretty average after that, with few quality wickets and many of the wickets due to poor batting, as the batsman were determined to belt him out of the attack because of his reputation. He remained a good bat, but for all his talent he didn't achieve as much as he should have after 81 as batsmen.

 

[therealAB]

Botham at his peak was the closest to Bradman in terms of value to the team of any cricketer ever. Was an absolute matchwinner with both bat and ball at the same time, which Imran was not to the same degree. 21 with the ball and 33 with the bat, having an exceptional amount of 5wh, hundreds

 

[Robert]

Botham hit his peak in 81, and then became overweight. His bowling was pretty average after that, with few quality wickets and many of the wickets due to poor batting, as the batsman were determined to belt him out of the attack because of his reputation. He remained a good bat, but for all his talent he didn't achieve as much as he should have after 81 as batsmen.

Got his double hundred in 1982, then another century against Hadlee in 1983. Then one more in Australia. But his batting declined when it should really have improved.

I agree about the bowling - though he was still quicker than he looked and occasionally still bowled a swinger or lifter and could surprise set batters.

 

[Bewal Express]

Got his double hundred in 1982, then another century against Hadlee in 1983. Then one more in Australia. But his batting declined when it should really have improved.

I agree about the bowling - though he was still quicker than he looked and occasionally still bowled a swinger or lifter and could surprise set batters.

Bothams stats as a Batsman have stood the test of time as a Batsman but you always felt that he short changed his talent in the, post 81. His bowling was pretty average in the post 81 period, although the stats weren't too bad for an all rounder.

 

[Bhaijaan]

1. Kapil Dev
2. Ian Botham
3. Imran Khan

Imran is a legendary AR however and must be respected, in last 3 years I jabe started to notice more and more people are giving him less credit as an AR, it's unfair in my opinion. He is a genuine legend of the game.

It is true his peak does not match up to Kapil or Botham as a cricket AR but his stats are phenomenal.

 

[Robert]

Bothams stats as a Batsman have stood the test of time as a Batsman but you always felt that he short changed his talent in the, post 81. His bowling was pretty average in the post 81 period, although the stats weren't too bad for an all rounder.

I agree with this his County skipper Brian Close said his bowling would not improve and would probably deteriorate and Close was proven right. The sky was the limit with Botham’s batting but he didn’t work to bring his huge natural ability to full effect. Had he practiced hard like Imran and cut out some of the big shots, I think he would have ended up averaging 44 like Gooch and Gower. Oh well. Shoulda woulda coulda.....

 

[Bewal Express]

1. Kapil Dev
2. Ian Botham
3. Imran Khan

Imran is a legendary AR however and must be respected, in last 3 years I jabe started to notice more and more people are giving him less credit as an AR, it's unfair in my opinion. He is a genuine legend of the game.

It is true his peak does not match up to Kapil or Botham as a cricket AR but his stats are phenomenal.

No one that lived through the era considers Kapil in the top 3, never mind top. His stats are more due to his longevity than any memorable performances post 83.

 

[Bhaijaan]

No one that lived through the era considers Kapil in the top 3, never mind top. His stats are more due to his longevity than any memorable performances post 83.

Brother i give my personal opinion always. What the world say or thinks is a different matter. Having studied the game to its depths a cricket analyst is a more reliable commentator than ex cricketers who mostly give their verdicts based on internal politics and friendships which we are all aware of.

 

[Bewal Express]

Brother i give my personal opinion always. What the world say or thinks is a different matter. Having studied the game to its depths a cricket analyst is a more reliable commentator than ex cricketers who mostly give their verdicts based on internal politics and friendships which we are all aware of.

I saw Kapil in 82 and he was a good bowler, he swung the ball and bowled around 83-84 but a knee injury soon after made him an average 3rd seamer. By 1986, his bowling was unrecognisable from the Kepil of 82

 

[Robert]

I saw Kapil in 82 and he was a good bowler, he swung the ball and bowled around 83-84 but a knee injury soon after made him an average 3rd seamer. By 1986, his bowling was unrecognisable from the Kepil of 82

He did well in England in 1986. Might have been that Gooch etc. had just come back from WI and were playing three shots to Kapil before the ball got to them

By 1987 in the MCC Bicentennary "test" he looked pedestrian though.

 

[Bewal Express]

He did well in England in 1986. Might have been that Gooch etc. had just come back from WI and were playing three shots to Kapil before the ball got to them

By 1987 in the MCC Bicentennary "test" he looked pedestrian though.

In 86 he also looked average but England looked mentally shot after the mauling they received at the hands of Patterson, Marshall etc in the Caribbean.

 

[Robert]

In 86 he also looked average but England looked mentally shot after the mauling they received at the hands of Patterson, Marshall etc in the Caribbean.

And going straight into the India series without a break after the Windies mauling and Botham banned for five tests. Then losing a home series to the Kiwis for the first time.

Then Gatting took an average side to Australia and beat a weak team to retain the Ashes and paper over the cracks, but after that didn't win a single test in three years.

 

[Zaz]

He did well in England in 1986. Might have been that Gooch etc. had just come back from WI and were playing three shots to Kapil before the ball got to them

By 1987 in the MCC Bicentennary "test" he looked pedestrian though.

I didnt watch him play but his stats dont look like they took a major fall off a cliff post 1990

He still avged an ok 32 in his last 4 years with the ball

But yes it did seem like he was hardly bowling towards the end of his career never mind being a spearhead

 

[MenInG]

Dont think both liked each other at all.

===


IMRAN Khan made a dramatic climbdown in court yesterday when he withdrew his defence that his allegations of ball tampering against Ian Botham were justified and offered the Englishman a public apology.

The exPakistani cricket skipper filed the claim before the High Court trial in London began, nine days ago, based on video footage which, he said, showed Botham carrying on the illegal practice during the 1982 Tests against India and Pakistan.

He told Mr Justice French and the jury yesterday that, despite evidence that it was almost impossible to push a misshapen ball back into shape, he accepted Botham's evidence that he was doing just that on footage from the India match.

"I have no reason to doubt Ian when he says he was repairing the ball. "I am prepared to go along with that. If he says he was squeezing the ball, then fine, he was squeezing the ball."

He said there was a difference between the 95 per cent of ball tampering that was within the limits" and the five per cent that was not.

Asked by his QC, Mr George Carman, about incidents during the Pakistan Test when, according to Botham, his reason for throwing the ball back to the wicket keeper, Bob Taylor, was for him to dry it with his gloves, Imran said he had never heard of this practice before.

"Everyone immediately uses the trousers, which is a much more simple thing than throwing it to the keeper who has rubber in his gloves," he said. "But having heard Ian Botham and Bob Taylor, if they say that is what happened, I will accept that they were drying the ball."

Mr Carman: "Does it follow that you want to withdraw your plea of justification?"

Imran: "Yes, sir, I will with draw it."

Mr Charles Gray QC, for Botham and Lamb, asked Imran if it was correct that he was abandoning his plea of justification "on the ninth day of this very public trial".

"Yes, sir."

The allegations of cheating had received the widest publicity and yet were only now being withdrawn, Mr Gray said.

Imran replied: "At no stage have I ever called Mr Botham a cheat. It is technical ball tampering. I have never regarded it as cheating."

Mr Gray: "You accused him of illegal interference with the ball by using his thumbnails to pick the seam or scratch it, and by throwing the ball to the wicketkeeper so he could scuff one side of it to remove the lacquer."

Imran: "Mr Botham admitted to two cases of ball tampering."

Mr Gray said that, as a result of the plea of justification being put on record, a "stream of witnesses had to be called to deal with the incidents.

Imran: "Yes, it is because of their evidence that I dropped it. I have no reason to call them liars."

Mr Gray: "Are you prepared to apologise for the fact that this accusation was made publicly and persisted in for nine days of this trial?"

Imran replied: "Yes, I will apologise if Mr Botham says he was squeezing the ball."

Botham and Lamb are suing Imran over an "offensive personal attack" on them in India Today magazine, which they say called them racist, uneducated and lacking class and upbringing. Botham alone is suing over a May 1994 report in the Sun, which, he says, accused him of ball tampering.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/imran-drops-allegations-against-botham-and-offers-apology-1.70896

===

As the Pakistani Cricket team discussed strategy for the Headingley Test to continue their winning streak in the current series against England, alarms rang out in their hotel.

It was a bomb scare, which accompanying Pakistani journalists hinted was a fallout of the Botham-Lamb versus Imran Khan court case. The case, which grabbed headlines both in the British and the Indian press, ended last fortnight with Imran being cleared of charges of libel and Ian Botham and Allan Lamb licking their wounds.

When the 12 member jury announced its verdict - 10-2 in Imran's favour - finding him not guilty of accusing Botham and Lamb of ball tampering, or being racist, uneducated and of a low class, it was seen as a restoration of Pakistani pride.

"A section of the press here has been making all kinds of allegations against Pakistani cricketers," says Shahid Sadullah, London editor of Daily Jung, a Pakistani English daily. "The wind has been taken out of their sails." Imran and wife Jemima, meanwhile, left for a European sojourn to "unwind".

The 13-day media circus in Court 13 at London High Court may have cleared Imran, but it has not cleared the confusion surrounding the main issue: what is ball tampering. The dispute goes back to the summer of 1992 when England lost to the swing of Waqar Younis and Wasim Akram.

British tabloids alleged that the Pakistanis had resorted to unfair means and claimed that Pakistani bowlers have always tampered with the ball. The mystery of the reverse swing, to which English batsmen had no clue, was ascribed to ball tampering.

Imran, already retired at the time, took up cudgels on behalf of his former teammates through two articles in the British newspaper The Daily Telegraph. Later, in an interview to the tabloid The Sun, he said that ball tampering was an accepted part of English cricket.

In 1994 he repeated his views to India Today, and went on to articulate what he thought were the reasons behind the attacks against him in the British press - racism being one of them.

The British press reproduced the interview and both Botham and Lamb went to court, suing Imran for libel. Cricket legend Geoffrey Boycott put the case for the defence most succinctly: "Some people try to pretend that ball tampering doesn't go on - and it has, for as long as I can remember. You tell me someone who has kept to the speed limit all his life. We are all a bit naughty and knock on over 30 miles an hour when we shouldn't."

During the trial, Imran claimed that the India Today interview had misquoted him on his remarks about racism and class. India Today Editor Aroon Purie clarifies: "We stand by the interview we carried. It perforce had to be condensed, but the edited version contained the essence of what Imran Khan said."

The verdict, to the 'surprise' of the defence, was in favour of Imran. A relieved Howard Cohen, Imran's solicitor, said: "Juries are always unpredictable. We were surprised because Botham is a folk hero in this country and we were expecting that he may have the jury's support."

The verdict may have cleared the Pakistani cricket icon but surely not the confusion over ball tampering.

For the Pakistani community in the UK, the outcome has come as a relief. "As a Pakistani, Imran's point came out clearly. He did not call anyone racist and did not cheat," says Sadullah. Said Botham, after the court battle: "I fought for my dignity and honesty, and no one can accuse me of being a racist."

The fight has proved costly for both Botham and Lamb. While Lamb has said that he does not have the 250,000 needed to pay for the legal costs of the battle, Botham is planning to do road shows to rais

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...-surprise-victory-in-court-833748-1996-08-31e the money. Perhaps after this, cricket scores will be settled where they should be - on the playing field.

 

[Superflex]

Botham had a couple of excellent series but was mediocre for much of his career and behind his three contemporaries in terms of impact on the team's fortunes. Also Imran and Kapil captained their sides too, piling more pressure on their workload.

My order would be;
Imran Khan
Richard Hadlee
Kapil Dev
Ian Botham

 

[MenInG]

Ian Botham has been introduced in the House of Lords. He is now Baron Botham of Ravensworth (the North Yorkshire village where he lives).

 

[Robert]

Dont think both liked each other at all.

===


IMRAN Khan made a dramatic climbdown in court yesterday when he withdrew his defence that his allegations of ball tampering against Ian Botham were justified and offered the Englishman a public apology.

The exPakistani cricket skipper filed the claim before the High Court trial in London began, nine days ago, based on video footage which, he said, showed Botham carrying on the illegal practice during the 1982 Tests against India and Pakistan.

He told Mr Justice French and the jury yesterday that, despite evidence that it was almost impossible to push a misshapen ball back into shape, he accepted Botham's evidence that he was doing just that on footage from the India match.

"I have no reason to doubt Ian when he says he was repairing the ball. "I am prepared to go along with that. If he says he was squeezing the ball, then fine, he was squeezing the ball."

He said there was a difference between the 95 per cent of ball tampering that was within the limits" and the five per cent that was not.

Asked by his QC, Mr George Carman, about incidents during the Pakistan Test when, according to Botham, his reason for throwing the ball back to the wicket keeper, Bob Taylor, was for him to dry it with his gloves, Imran said he had never heard of this practice before.

"Everyone immediately uses the trousers, which is a much more simple thing than throwing it to the keeper who has rubber in his gloves," he said. "But having heard Ian Botham and Bob Taylor, if they say that is what happened, I will accept that they were drying the ball."

Mr Carman: "Does it follow that you want to withdraw your plea of justification?"

Imran: "Yes, sir, I will with draw it."

Mr Charles Gray QC, for Botham and Lamb, asked Imran if it was correct that he was abandoning his plea of justification "on the ninth day of this very public trial".

"Yes, sir."

The allegations of cheating had received the widest publicity and yet were only now being withdrawn, Mr Gray said.

Imran replied: "At no stage have I ever called Mr Botham a cheat. It is technical ball tampering. I have never regarded it as cheating."

Mr Gray: "You accused him of illegal interference with the ball by using his thumbnails to pick the seam or scratch it, and by throwing the ball to the wicketkeeper so he could scuff one side of it to remove the lacquer."

Imran: "Mr Botham admitted to two cases of ball tampering."

Mr Gray said that, as a result of the plea of justification being put on record, a "stream of witnesses had to be called to deal with the incidents.

Imran: "Yes, it is because of their evidence that I dropped it. I have no reason to call them liars."

Mr Gray: "Are you prepared to apologise for the fact that this accusation was made publicly and persisted in for nine days of this trial?"

Imran replied: "Yes, I will apologise if Mr Botham says he was squeezing the ball."

Botham and Lamb are suing Imran over an "offensive personal attack" on them in India Today magazine, which they say called them racist, uneducated and lacking class and upbringing. Botham alone is suing over a May 1994 report in the Sun, which, he says, accused him of ball tampering.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/imran-drops-allegations-against-botham-and-offers-apology-1.70896

===

As the Pakistani Cricket team discussed strategy for the Headingley Test to continue their winning streak in the current series against England, alarms rang out in their hotel.

It was a bomb scare, which accompanying Pakistani journalists hinted was a fallout of the Botham-Lamb versus Imran Khan court case. The case, which grabbed headlines both in the British and the Indian press, ended last fortnight with Imran being cleared of charges of libel and Ian Botham and Allan Lamb licking their wounds.

When the 12 member jury announced its verdict - 10-2 in Imran's favour - finding him not guilty of accusing Botham and Lamb of ball tampering, or being racist, uneducated and of a low class, it was seen as a restoration of Pakistani pride.

"A section of the press here has been making all kinds of allegations against Pakistani cricketers," says Shahid Sadullah, London editor of Daily Jung, a Pakistani English daily. "The wind has been taken out of their sails." Imran and wife Jemima, meanwhile, left for a European sojourn to "unwind".

The 13-day media circus in Court 13 at London High Court may have cleared Imran, but it has not cleared the confusion surrounding the main issue: what is ball tampering. The dispute goes back to the summer of 1992 when England lost to the swing of Waqar Younis and Wasim Akram.

British tabloids alleged that the Pakistanis had resorted to unfair means and claimed that Pakistani bowlers have always tampered with the ball. The mystery of the reverse swing, to which English batsmen had no clue, was ascribed to ball tampering.

Imran, already retired at the time, took up cudgels on behalf of his former teammates through two articles in the British newspaper The Daily Telegraph. Later, in an interview to the tabloid The Sun, he said that ball tampering was an accepted part of English cricket.

In 1994 he repeated his views to India Today, and went on to articulate what he thought were the reasons behind the attacks against him in the British press - racism being one of them.

The British press reproduced the interview and both Botham and Lamb went to court, suing Imran for libel. Cricket legend Geoffrey Boycott put the case for the defence most succinctly: "Some people try to pretend that ball tampering doesn't go on - and it has, for as long as I can remember. You tell me someone who has kept to the speed limit all his life. We are all a bit naughty and knock on over 30 miles an hour when we shouldn't."

During the trial, Imran claimed that the India Today interview had misquoted him on his remarks about racism and class. India Today Editor Aroon Purie clarifies: "We stand by the interview we carried. It perforce had to be condensed, but the edited version contained the essence of what Imran Khan said."

The verdict, to the 'surprise' of the defence, was in favour of Imran. A relieved Howard Cohen, Imran's solicitor, said: "Juries are always unpredictable. We were surprised because Botham is a folk hero in this country and we were expecting that he may have the jury's support."

The verdict may have cleared the Pakistani cricket icon but surely not the confusion over ball tampering.

For the Pakistani community in the UK, the outcome has come as a relief. "As a Pakistani, Imran's point came out clearly. He did not call anyone racist and did not cheat," says Sadullah. Said Botham, after the court battle: "I fought for my dignity and honesty, and no one can accuse me of being a racist."

The fight has proved costly for both Botham and Lamb. While Lamb has said that he does not have the 250,000 needed to pay for the legal costs of the battle, Botham is planning to do road shows to rais

https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/...-surprise-victory-in-court-833748-1996-08-31e the money. Perhaps after this, cricket scores will be settled where they should be - on the playing field.

Well, if I were Botham and Lamb, as soon as Imran withdrew I would have stood down and shaken his hand.

A bit disappointing that they continued the action.

 

[therealAB]

At his peak Botham was the greatest allrounder ever, to answer the OP

So yes

 

[Robert]

Botham had a couple of excellent series but was mediocre for much of his career and behind his three contemporaries in terms of impact on the team's fortunes. Also Imran and Kapil captained their sides too, piling more pressure on their workload.

My order would be;
Imran Khan
Richard Hadlee
Kapil Dev
Ian Botham

A couple?

He hit fourteen test hundreds. The other three got sixteen between them.

He took more test catches than the other three put together.

He took 373 wickets, at one time a world record.

The man carried England on his back for eight years. After 1985, cumulative injuries wore him down and he lost effectiveness.

 

[Firebat]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">"No one really could match him for the skill and the quality that he had."<br><br>Next on <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ICCHallOfFame?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ICCHallOfFame</a> is England's great all-rounder, <a href="https://twitter.com/BeefyBotham?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@BeefyBotham</a> <br><br>&#55357;&#56573;️ <a href="https://t.co/saknj3HXxd">https://t.co/saknj3HXxd</a> <a href="https://t.co/k8U3z4R0Rz">pic.twitter.com/k8U3z4R0Rz</a></p>— ICC (@ICC) <a href="https://twitter.com/ICC/status/1398602572806635525?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>