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Was it right for Indian cricketers to choose honour over money and reject World Series Contract?

Bhaijaan

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As is history now, Indian cricketers were among the select few who were not swayed by Kerry Packers big money extravaganzas the World Series Cricket in the 70s/80s

In hindsight many fallen heroes who sold their soul for money still continue to pursue their false propaganda that WSC changed cricket for good when in fact they want to cover up their gross betrayal of the beautiful game and how they threatened the very foundation of this game for their own selfish reasons.

I am proud that many Indian cricketers led by example during that time and took a stand against Kerry Packer and did not sell themselves for money.

Honour is everything.
 
In before you have posts saying no Indian cricketer was approached as they were not good enough.
 
Thank Bedi, he threw the blank cheque at Packer's fat face and told him to get lost, actual words were way harsher. Sunny wanted to join but was warned against doing so by Bedi, Kirmani dutifully obliged. Only Bedi deserves appreciation for putting the circus in its rightful place. Notice the sardar hasn't changed much, he still has contempt for IPL and other T20 leagues, every now and then throws a few fireballs, very principled man :salute.
 
Thank Bedi, he threw the blank cheque at Packer's fat face and told him to get lost, actual words were way harsher. Sunny wanted to join but was warned against doing so by Bedi, Kirmani dutifully obliged. Only Bedi deserves appreciation for putting the circus in its rightful place. Notice the sardar hasn't changed much, he still has contempt for IPL and other T20 leagues, every now and then throws a few fireballs, very principled man :salute.

He was also the strongest and most. Consistent voice among cricketers against chucking.

He didn’t even spare Harbhajan Singh, a fellow Indian and a Sardar.

Although I don’t quite agree with the language he used against Kerrry Packer. You can always reject a business proposal in a nice way also. No need for swearing.
 
Kerry Pecker Cricket was the first mickey mouse gimmick in cricket. It was most definitely staged as well to make it seem entertaining. Rebel cricketers who turned their back on the beautiful game for the sake of money lie about it being wuality cricket when it was in all honesty just some circus like ICL.
 
He was also the strongest and most. Consistent voice among cricketers against chucking.

He didn’t even spare Harbhajan Singh, a fellow Indian and a Sardar.

Although I don’t quite agree with the language he used against Kerrry Packer. You can always reject a business proposal in a nice way also. No need for swearing.

Big brother FC , you have to remember that Bedi was a lion while Kerry Packer was a fat sheep. Sometimes when the sheep acts big and smart the lion has to put it in its place and restore nature's order.

Besides Kerry Packer was a nasty piece of work, rude insulting bully who even threatened to kick the legendary Windies players home after they had a subpar match. Bedi wasn't a meek, subservient mini mouse like those WSC players. Someone had to stand up for our glorious game and the brave Sardar took the responsibility. A few nasty words are always a given when cricket's honour is at stake.

I propose naming the World Test Championship Trophy to Bishan Lion Bedi Cup, what do you say? Afterall he has been test cricket's greatest guardian :bow: and deserves a fitting tribute.
 
Big brother FC , you have to remember that Bedi was a lion while Kerry Packer was a fat sheep. Sometimes when the sheep acts big and smart the lion has to put it in its place and restore nature's order.

Besides Kerry Packer was a nasty piece of work, rude insulting bully who even threatened to kick the legendary Windies players home after they had a subpar match. Bedi wasn't a meek, subservient mini mouse like those WSC players. Someone had to stand up for our glorious game and the brave Sardar took the responsibility. A few nasty words are always a given when cricket's honour is at stake.

I propose naming the World Test Championship Trophy to Bishan Lion Bedi Cup, what do you say? Afterall he has been test cricket's greatest guardian :bow: and deserves a fitting tribute.

It would indeed be a fitting tribute. Bedi is a legit legend of the game and one of the greatest bowlers ever. Don’t let statistics fool you. Bedi in his era was an absolute superstar of the game.
 
Thank Bedi, he threw the blank cheque at Packer's fat face and told him to get lost, actual words were way harsher. Sunny wanted to join but was warned against doing so by Bedi, Kirmani dutifully obliged. Only Bedi deserves appreciation for putting the circus in its rightful place. Notice the sardar hasn't changed much, he still has contempt for IPL and other T20 leagues, every now and then throws a few fireballs, very principled man :salute.

Same Bishen Bedi had no shame accepting 75 lakhs INR and a monthly grant from corrupt BCCI (which started to paid ex cricketers only after IPL money)
 
Thank Bedi, he threw the blank cheque at Packer's fat face and told him to get lost, actual words were way harsher. Sunny wanted to join but was warned against doing so by Bedi, Kirmani dutifully obliged. Only Bedi deserves appreciation for putting the circus in its rightful place. Notice the sardar hasn't changed much, he still has contempt for IPL and other T20 leagues, every now and then throws a few fireballs, very principled man :salute.

I know Kirmani's nephew, he lives here in the States. That family has a great deal of honor. I think he would have refused on his own, Bedi or no Bedi.
 
Thank Bedi, he threw the blank cheque at Packer's fat face and told him to get lost, actual words were way harsher. Sunny wanted to join but was warned against doing so by Bedi, Kirmani dutifully obliged. Only Bedi deserves appreciation for putting the circus in its rightful place. Notice the sardar hasn't changed much, he still has contempt for IPL and other T20 leagues, every now and then throws a few fireballs, very principled man :salute.

I always thought PP's own bhaagveerubhaag is Bedi in disguise.
 
Interesting to read this seeing as Packer never actually did the recruiting himself .

I mean that's not even the full story. After that Bedi slapped the living daylights out of the fat bully in trademark Punjabi style, speared him and then chokeslammed his fist on the conference table. Then his PAs wrongly told him the next WSC candidate :kapil was from the same state as the sardar, Packer ran straight to the airport and took the immediate flight to Sydney with his tail between the legs.
 
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No Indian cricketer was approached because they were not good enough... Except for maybe a couple.
So somehow the likes of asif iqbal, lance gibbs, bob woolmer were world class but sunil gavaskar, gundappa vishwanath, bishan bedi, kapil dev were not.
Bishan bedi is a proud man he was against thw the idea of putting price tag on players.
 
Surely the likes of Bedi and Gavaskar could have did well there.

Bedi, Gavaskar, Kirmani were offered contracts but refused, confirmed. I once read that Vishwanath was offered but unsure about the veracity of the claim. WSC was played between 1977 to 1979, Kapil made his debut in late 1978 so was an unknown commodity.

Packer's was a rebel league like ICL, BCCI was a supporter of ACB those days and toured downunder thrice within a span of 7 years despite being a mediocre team. Bedi (then captain) hated Packer/WSC and even BCCI was against the concept. That's all there is to this thread.
 
Bedi, Gavaskar, Kirmani were offered contracts but refused, confirmed. I once read that Vishwanath was offered but unsure about the veracity of the claim. WSC was played between 1977 to 1979, Kapil made his debut in late 1978 so was an unknown commodity.

Packer's was a rebel league like ICL, BCCI was a supporter of ACB those days and toured downunder thrice within a span of 7 years despite being a mediocre team. Bedi (then captain) hated Packer/WSC and even BCCI was against the concept. That's all there is to this thread.

Good to hear. Indian players were certainly good enough but were loyal to their nation.
 
So somehow the likes of asif iqbal, lance gibbs, bob woolmer were world class but sunil gavaskar, gundappa vishwanath, bishan bedi, kapil dev were not.
Bishan bedi is a proud man he was against thw the idea of putting price tag on players.

It would appear so. Correct me if I missed something but the Indian team were not exactly trail blazers back in the day
 
Maybe they were too scared to face fast bowling on a consistent basis on bouncy pitches of Australia....
 
Bedi and India had thrown in the towel a year earlier against the west indies...... imagine having to face their demons week in week out in world series cricket
 
Seeing how Bedi and co. surrendered in the West Indies a year or so earlier, this refusal reeks of cowardice more than any honour :P
 
Bedi and India had thrown in the towel a year earlier against the west indies...... imagine having to face their demons week in week out in world series cricket

Seeing how Bedi and co. surrendered in the West Indies a year or so earlier, this refusal reeks of cowardice more than any honour :P

Just like Faf duplesis and the English team in the 1998 that ran away from a terrible pitch ?
 
It would appear so. Correct me if I missed something but the Indian team were not exactly trail blazers back in the day


It would indeed appear that way if you are on the same prescription meds as [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and a few others.
 
WSC cricket could have been the end of Cricket. I firmly believe loyalists of real cricket are not given enough credit for standing up against bignmoney private ventures.
 
To many it may seem harsh but Pakistani cricketers have been most easily lured by money in the history of the game. Harsh fact. They've been made to do some really stupid stuff for a few bucks. Inzi and his entire entourage betrayed their nation for a sub-standard rebel ICL circus. Let's not even talk about the trio, Sharjeel, Nasir, etc. The cases keep emanating from a particular country even after the rest have shown considerable improvement. Their senior players will play beyond expiry dates, even the mickey mouse leagues only for the money. Their front line players will line up for every T10, T5 in the world. A few of their "legends" will go to any extent to get plush positions in the PCB - free money for no work - even if that means they have to bow down or side with people they have publicly shown their "hate" for. Rashid Latif, Javed Miandad. Name it. Most immediately start attacking the person who gets the plush job they wanted. No one cares about the country or the fans.

The extent to which they can go for money is cringe-worthy.

It obviously doesn't surprise me that their stars could be "bought" very easily back then. If I have to start a new rebel circus some day, I know who to approach.
 
Just like Faf duplesis and the English team in the 1998 that ran away from a terrible pitch ?

How was the Indian surrender linked to the nature of the pitch? WI batted on the same pitch and had few issues. The Sabina Park pitch was utterly unpredictable as this video shows

 
Bedi and India had thrown in the towel a year earlier against the west indies...... imagine having to face their demons week in week out in world series cricket

In 1979 WI toured India and lost the series. We are talking about the likes of Gavaskar here who avgd 50 plus againist WI.


How much did Miandad and Zaheer Abbas avg againist WI?
 
In 1979 WI toured India and lost the series. We are talking about the likes of Gavaskar here who avgd 50 plus againist WI.


How much did Miandad and Zaheer Abbas avg againist WI?

That was the second string WI and they still managed a few draws. Gavaskar's 50+ average was mainly due to the 1971 and 1979 tours when the Windies pace quartet did not play, but you know all that already :D
 
That was the second string WI and they still managed a few draws. Gavaskar's 50+ average was mainly due to the 1971 and 1979 tours when the Windies pace quartet did not play, but you know all that already :D

Zaheer Abbas did tour Windies in 76-77 without the complete "quartet" ,still lost the series..only saving grace was Mushtaq Mohammad, there is a reason Zaheer and Miandad never make it to anyone's 11 list.

Also if you want to speak to about Quartet , the great pakistani series against Windies which is always mentioned here,the match Pak won(series 1-1) had no Viv and Malcom Marshall just FYI..
 
Just like Faf duplesis and the English team in the 1998 that ran away from a terrible pitch ?

Difference being in the first instance only India ran away, as you put it. The match was completed with Windies suffering no injuries.
 
Bedi and India had thrown in the towel a year earlier against the west indies...... imagine having to face their demons week in week out in world series cricket

Seeing how Bedi and co. surrendered in the West Indies a year or so earlier, this refusal reeks of cowardice more than any honour :P

By repeating a lie 1000 times, it doesn't become the truth. Lloyd's around the wicket bodyline strategy using Holding injured our players who couldn't take the field. Not just bouncers but also beamers were served while crowd bayed for blood, Gavaskar in his book 'Sunny Days' called the crowd barbarians and rightly so.

In the previous test WI were humiliated in Port of Spain where India chased down 406 in the 4th innings which was a world record then. Jamaica was a well planned revenge for that humiliation.
 
By repeating a lie 1000 times, it doesn't become the truth. Lloyd's around the wicket bodyline strategy using Holding injured our players who couldn't take the field. Not just bouncers but also beamers were served while crowd bayed for blood, Gavaskar in his book 'Sunny Days' called the crowd barbarians and rightly so.

In the previous test WI were humiliated in Port of Spain where India chased down 406 in the 4th innings which was a world record then. Jamaica was a well planned revenge for that humiliation.

3 players were injured by the bowling so hardly a disaster, Bedi and Chandra injured themselves dropping catches as Bedi himself admitted.
 
Zaheer Abbas did tour Windies in 76-77 without the complete "quartet" ,still lost the series..only saving grace was Mushtaq Mohammad, there is a reason Zaheer and Miandad never make it to anyone's 11 list.

Also if you want to speak to about Quartet , the great pakistani series against Windies which is always mentioned here,the match Pak won(series 1-1) had no Viv and Malcom Marshall just FYI..

Holding, Garner and Roberts had all retired by that series.
 
Zaheer Abbas did tour Windies in 76-77 without the complete "quartet" ,still lost the series..only saving grace was Mushtaq Mohammad, there is a reason Zaheer and Miandad never make it to anyone's 11 list.

Also if you want to speak to about Quartet , the great pakistani series against Windies which is always mentioned here,the match Pak won(series 1-1) had no Viv and Malcom Marshall just FYI..
Pakistan drew three consecutive series with the West Indies. Which one are you talking about?
 
In before you have posts saying no Indian cricketer was approached as they were not good enough.

See the usual responses.

Same people who support the WSC mercenaries, now call T20 league players names. Biggest hypocrite of them all is Michael Holding. Him going to WSC and abandoning WI team was all perfect, present day WI players doing so to play T20 Leagues is a tragedy as per him. Talk about double standards.
 
Pakistan drew three consecutive series with the West Indies. Which one are you talking about?

The one that Pakistan drew in West Indies in 1998. That was the only series Pakistan managed to draw in West Indies till the 80's. The other couple of series you are speaking about took place in Pakistan.
 
Good to hear. Indian players were certainly good enough but were loyal to their nation.

Thing is it amuses me to see someone like Holding blast IPL and other T20 leagues 24x7 because these are all ICC sanctioned events with no adverse effect on international calendar. The WSC mercenaries turned their backs on the countries for few extra dollars and are hailed as heroes. Similarly some players (including black West Indians) who toured South Africa for $$$ during the apartheid ban (ICC imposed) pretend to be moral angels and diss current players for being greedy. Can it get more ironical than that?

Bishan Singh Bedi spurned WSC and these days he talks ill about the T20 leagues, especially IPL. At least he has consistent views across so many years. Does he have more credibility or Holding? In fact another thing very few people know is that Holding's wife Laurie-Ann was involved in IPL production feed a few years back and as long as she was involved he didn't open his mouth to criticize the league. In fact he was down there in Wankhede supervising Mumbai Indians net sessions, interacting with and coaching the quicks. The moment her contract ended he went back to his ways of bashing IPL.

This is what irritates me. These WSC campaigners were greedy opportunists and to see them being glorified today as saints is nauseating. They threatened the break up of international cricket for monetary benefits and not a negative word against those guys so many years later. I don't see similar nostalgia/respect for ICL players, in fact they were called greedy/cheats/traitors and banned by their boards for significant time period.
 
By repeating a lie 1000 times, it doesn't become the truth. Lloyd's around the wicket bodyline strategy using Holding injured our players who couldn't take the field. Not just bouncers but also beamers were served while crowd bayed for blood, Gavaskar in his book 'Sunny Days' called the crowd barbarians and rightly so.

In the previous test WI were humiliated in Port of Spain where India chased down 406 in the 4th innings which was a world record then. Jamaica was a well planned revenge for that humiliation.
The Bodyline strategy had been outlawed years before this series.🤣😂
This was a newly laid pitch with uneven bounce with the Windies paceman bowling short pitched deliveries (which became a norm for them after their successes with this tactic).
 
3 players were injured by the bowling so hardly a disaster, Bedi and Chandra injured themselves dropping catches as Bedi himself admitted.

Point is they were injured. They couldn't take the field and what use of playing when WI fast bowlers had stooped to the level of bowling multiple beamers every over. All done because India had the nerve to chase 406 in the previous match.
 
The Bodyline strategy had been outlawed years before this series.����
This was a newly laid pitch with uneven bounce with the Windies paceman bowling short pitched deliveries (which became a norm for them after their successes with this tactic).

Gavaskar in his book mentioned there were multiple beamers thrown at him and each time Holding pretended it slipped off his hands.

From an old Sportstar article:

It was against such a backdrop that I asked Sunil, once he was back in India: "That head-hunting beamer we saw you barely manage to evade at Sabina Park in DD's Samachar highlights, how did it feel to measure up to it from Holding?" "Which beamer?" Sunil slyly sought to know, his tone making it obvious that beamers made no one beam. "There were so many of them bowled at us. Both Holding and Daniel bowled them regularly. Their technique was simple - mix a beamer with two-three bouncers in an over. Then, having shaken the batsman's confidence, produce a fast straight yorker to go through his defence. I did ask wicket-keeper Deryck Murray why they were still after me when they had virtually won that Sabina Park decider with three of our key men injured. Deryck said he had spoken to Clive about it, but they had simply been asked to turn their eyes away if they did not want to look!"
 
[MENTION=65183]freelance_cricketer[/MENTION] is one of my favourite posters.

But this thread is born out of a profound lack of understanding of how Cricket was organised then, and what “loyalty” actually was.

It is a story of race and of dishonour, to be honest.

When Kerry Packer used Ian Chappell and Tony Greig to approach the world’s best cricketers in early 1977, world cricket was run by the ICC out of the Clock Tower at Lords.

Until 12 years earlier it had actually been called the Imperial Cricket Conference, and that was how it behaved.

The old-fashioned British class system had led to the Marylebone Cricket Club controlling the ICC for the sole interests of England, and its cricketing chums in Australia and Apartheid South Africa.

When England dared to contemplate selecting the non-white Basil d’Oliveira to tour South Africa in 1970, the MCC allowed South Africa’s Apartheid government to cancel the tour, and the ICC did nothing whatsoever to sanction South Africa.

The Boards of India, Pakistan and the West Indies did nothing at all in defence of non-white cricketers (or people).

In fact, India plays a proud part in this story - but the Desai government, not the BCCI.

As Tony Greig and Ian Chappell were signing up the world’s best players, the ICC was doing nothing about South Africa. Meanwhile every Board treated its own players with contempt: wages were non-existent, players were only paid (a pittance) while on national duty, and players had to fund their own medical treatment and retirement.

There was no reason to be “loyal” to the disloyal Boards or to the racist ICC.

Kerry Packer brought financial security to his players. He funded their medical treatment.

Meanwhile the Desai government prevailed upon the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting at Gleneagles in June 1977 to introduce the punishment for cricketing contact with Apartheid South Africa that neither the ICC nor the Boards had bothered to.

The heroes of this story are Kerry Packer and the Indian Government.

Between them for the first time they afforded non-white cricketers the same treatment as white ones, and Packer treated his cricketers with a level of respect and care that their own Boards has never done.
 
The one that Pakistan drew in West Indies in 1998. That was the only series Pakistan managed to draw in West Indies till the 80's. The other couple of series you are speaking about took place in Pakistan.
They only played two series in the Caribbean before that one🤔, so not sure what you getting at.
Malcolm and Viv were back for the remaining matches. They needed GD and the tail end batter (forgotten his name) to get them over the line, with a 70 plus partnership in the third match to level the series.
Huge turning point in the game as this started the call for neutral umpires. Make of that what you want.
Point being Pakistan were competitive with both of them in the Windies team
 
By repeating a lie 1000 times, it doesn't become the truth. Lloyd's around the wicket bodyline strategy using Holding injured our players who couldn't take the field. Not just bouncers but also beamers were served while crowd bayed for blood, Gavaskar in his book 'Sunny Days' called the crowd barbarians and rightly so.

In the previous test WI were humiliated in Port of Spain where India chased down 406 in the 4th innings which was a world record then. Jamaica was a well planned revenge for that humiliation.
This is untrue from start to finish.

The first modern West Indian to bowl round the wicket to Indians was Malcolm Marshall in 1982-83.

The actual chain of events was this.

1. West Indies are blown away 5-1 in Australia by Lillee and Thomson in 75-76 in front of baying, hostile, racist crowds.

2. West Indies skipper Clive Lloyd accepts that the game has just become harder and more professional, with even tailenders now subject to receiving occasional bouncers - previously a gentleman’s Agreement minimised that.

3. When the West Indies returned home, Lloyd switched to a pace-based strategy.

4. This led to an ideological clash with Bishan Bedi, who believed that even wicketkeepers should never be bounced, and certainly bowlers never should be.

5. At Kingston, a couple of Indians were hit and two of the bowlers damaged their hands dropping catches.

6. With the team only a dozen runs ahead and with no remaining batsmen, Bishan Bedi realised that the team was going to lose, and decided to make a protest against the unsporting use of any fast or short bowling against the tail.

I saw Bedi interviewed about it on the BBC that summer (while he was playing county cricket while the West Indies toured England).

I felt some sympathy for him. He represented an earlier gentleman’s game which was being replaced with one in which tailenders had to be able to bat and bowlers had to be able to field.

The modern game was more brutal, and helmets didn’t arrive until Kerry Packer introduced them the following year.

But the West Indies weren’t bowling bodyline. They only had two 150+ bowlers.

They were bowling like Shami did at Perth last week. And they were dishing out what they had only just received in Australia.

The World was changing, fast!
 
They only played two series in the Caribbean before that one��, so not sure what you getting at.
Malcolm and Viv were back for the remaining matches. They needed GD and the tail end batter (forgotten his name) to get them over the line, with a 70 plus partnership in the third match to level the series.
Huge turning point in the game as this started the call for neutral umpires. Make of that what you want.
Point being Pakistan were competitive with both of them in the Windies team

Not trying to get at anything. I was merely answering your question. That poster was referring to the series in West Indies in 1988. And yes, prior to that Pakistan played just 2 series in the West Indies.

Cricket is already a sport played by a handful of countries, which includes even fewer top teams. And we lost a traditional heavyweight like the West Indies. Huge, huge tragedy for the sport.
 
One last Kerry Packer point.

Yes, he gave players the financial security that their Boards did not.

Yes, he gave players the medical care that their Boards did not.

Yes, he treated white and non-white players exactly the same, which neither the ICC nor the Boards did.

But most importantly, he kept the players safe and alive in a dangerous period. Improved diet and professionalism meant that there were around half a dozen bowlers in the 150+ pace range, which has never happened before or since.

And there was no longer a gentleman’s Agreement preventing them from bouncing tailenders.

The introduction of helmets by Kerry Packer saved lives.

Which is why forty years on his players still have a level of loyalty to him that no Board could ever dream of having.
 
The Bodyline strategy had been outlawed years before this series.🤣😂
This was a newly laid pitch with uneven bounce with the Windies paceman bowling short pitched deliveries (which became a norm for them after their successes with this tactic).

Point is they were injured. They couldn't take the field and what use of playing when WI fast bowlers had stooped to the level of bowling multiple beamers every over. All done because India had the nerve to chase 406 in the previous match.
Nope.

This was a pitch on which both India and the West Indies had scored over 300 in their First Innings.

As Bedi proudly said on TV, he chose 97-5 as the time to declare because the match was lost and he wanted his gesture to prove a point. Not because half his team was too injured to bat.

Bedi considered it to be an important Ethical Battle to ensure that the cricket world went back to giving tailenders Immunity From Short Pitched Bowling. Especially as helmets were still a year away.

I see his point. I just disagree.

But he is more of a gentleman than I am, and he’s always had a strong moral streak.

I admire him, I just don’t agree on this issue.
 
I know I enjoy teasing some of our Indian friends at times, but Bishan Bedi is a real hero of mine.

It’s his abiding brotherhood with Mushtaq Mohammad which makes me despair of the crazy and pointless hostility between India and Pakistan today.

So while I disagree with his Kingston declaration, I admire him so much that I’m happy to make his arguments for him.

I certainly love and admire Bishan Bedi an awful lot more than I do any current Pakistan cricketer, that’s for sure!
 
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] interesting perspective and I won't deny I enjoy when you make such posts as opposed to baiting/trolling.

But beamers were still used liberally by the WI quicks in that Jamaica test, all under the pretence of slippery hands. Why would Sunny lie in his book 'Sunny days' as well as the interview to Sportstar (post #43)?

Sunny didn't retire hurt in that match, he had a big enmity with Bedi but didn't use this incident to tarnish the latter's image and believe me the Mumbaikar was/is a vindictive person. In fact he devoted a whole chapter in 'Sunny Days' titled 'Barbarism in Kingston' to defend Bedi's action. I remember once when Sunny brought up this story in the commentary booth with Holding by his side, when the subject of beamers came Holding merely chuckled and offered no rebut. So I am inclined to believe Sunny's version of the events.
 
But the West Indies weren’t bowling bodyline. They only had two 150+ bowlers.

They were bowling like Shami did at Perth last week. And they were dishing out what they had only just received in Australia.

Michael Holding and Wayne Daniel were in the super-fast category, while Bernard Julien and Van Holder weren't far behind.

Link: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2000/oct/05/cricket5


Annoyed by the loss in the previous Test, the West Indian team adopted a negative tactic of short-pitched bowling. The tactic, in addition to uneven bounce on the surface — which often resulted in ball rising at alarming heights — spelled doom for Indians, who had started rather well.

Link: https://www.cricketcountry.com/phot...ured-5-indian-batsmen-were-absent-hurt-518116

Holding started off with three bouncers to Gaekwad in an over. This was followed by four bouncers and a beamer to Gavaskar. The Indian dressing room shuddered. The crowd loved it. And, with a mix of fortune and pluck, the openers continued to bat.

Link: https://www.cricketcountry.com/articles/when-clive-lloyd-ordered-india-s-bloodbath-at-jamaica-25636
.
 
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] interesting perspective and I won't deny I enjoy when you make such posts as opposed to baiting/trolling.

But beamers were still used liberally by the WI quicks in that Jamaica test, all under the pretence of slippery hands. Why would Sunny lie in his book 'Sunny days' as well as the interview to Sportstar (post #43)?

Sunny didn't retire hurt in that match, he had a big enmity with Bedi but didn't use this incident to tarnish the latter's image and believe me the Mumbaikar was/is a vindictive person. In fact he devoted a whole chapter in 'Sunny Days' titled 'Barbarism in Kingston' to defend Bedi's action. I remember once when Sunny brought up this story in the commentary booth with Holding by his side, when the subject of beamers came Holding merely chuckled and offered no rebut. So I am inclined to believe Sunny's version of the events.

Very good points - you might be right!
 
This is untrue from start to finish.

The first modern West Indian to bowl round the wicket to Indians was Malcolm Marshall in 1982-83.

The actual chain of events was this.

1. West Indies are blown away 5-1 in Australia by Lillee and Thomson in 75-76 in front of baying, hostile, racist crowds.

2. West Indies skipper Clive Lloyd accepts that the game has just become harder and more professional, with even tailenders now subject to receiving occasional bouncers - previously a gentleman’s Agreement minimised that.

3. When the West Indies returned home, Lloyd switched to a pace-based strategy.

4. This led to an ideological clash with Bishan Bedi, who believed that even wicketkeepers should never be bounced, and certainly bowlers never should be.

5. At Kingston, a couple of Indians were hit and two of the bowlers damaged their hands dropping catches.

6. With the team only a dozen runs ahead and with no remaining batsmen, Bishan Bedi realised that the team was going to lose, and decided to make a protest against the unsporting use of any fast or short bowling against the tail.

I saw Bedi interviewed about it on the BBC that summer (while he was playing county cricket while the West Indies toured England).

I felt some sympathy for him. He represented an earlier gentleman’s game which was being replaced with one in which tailenders had to be able to bat and bowlers had to be able to field.

The modern game was more brutal, and helmets didn’t arrive until Kerry Packer introduced them the following year.

But the West Indies weren’t bowling bodyline. They only had two 150+ bowlers.

They were bowling like Shami did at Perth last week. And they were dishing out what they had only just received in Australia.

The World was changing, fast!

As always a lot of fiction there :)

WI played a leg spinner Holford and an off spinner Jumdeen in the first two tests immediately after the Australia series!

WI won the 1st test of the series at Bridgetown with spinners taking 9 wickets.
2nd test at Port Of Spain was a draw with WI pacers being largely ineffective.
3rd test at Port Of Spain - Roberts was dropped for off spinner Padmore and Holford replaced by Leg spinner Imtiaz Ali. Jumadeen also played in a 5 bowler attack with 2 pacers 0 Holding, Julein and 3 spinners. India chased 400+ there in the 4th innings,

4th test WI had a pace quartret for the first time- Holding, Daniel, Julein and Holder.

WI did not play a proper spinner for next 6-7 years. Modern cricket did change but during the India series and not before it :)
 
No [MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] , I’m a bit older than [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] and I watched the 1976 West Indies tour of England.

It’s true that six months earlier both Roberts and Holding were measured in the 150’s.

But Bernard Julien was like the West Indian Pedro Collins - a 130K left-arm medium paced swing bowler.

And Vanburn Holder was a thirty-something trundler who bowled at a similar pace.

I can believe that Holding or Roberts bowled with real menace. But not Holder or Julien.
 
As always a lot of fiction there :)

WI played a leg spinner Holford and an off spinner Jumdeen in the first two tests immediately after the Australia series!

WI won the 1st test of the series at Bridgetown with spinners taking 9 wickets.
2nd test at Port Of Spain was a draw with WI pacers being largely ineffective.
3rd test at Port Of Spain - Roberts was dropped for off spinner Padmore and Holford replaced by Leg spinner Imtiaz Ali. Jumadeen also played in a 5 bowler attack with 2 pacers 0 Holding, Julein and 3 spinners. India chased 400+ there in the 4th innings,

4th test WI had a pace quartret for the first time- Holding, Daniel, Julein and Holder.

WI did not play a proper spinner for next 6-7 years. Modern cricket did change but during the India series and not before it :)
See my post above about Holder and Julien, who were equally ineffective three months later in England.

The real Revolution was a year later when Garner and Croft replaced Holder and Julien for the Pakistan series. The die was cast!
 
Difference being in the first instance only India ran away, as you put it. The match was completed with Windies suffering no injuries.

There were no fast bowlers in the Indian team. I think you forgot that.

The point is that if that test match was played in current playing conditions the umpires would have stopped the match just like they do now. I don't see you indulging in puerile trolling of the SA and Eng team that similarly "ran away".

So the real losers are the WI who couldn't play fair after being beaten in the previous test and Bishen Bedi being a thorough upright individual who put a huge premium on sportsmanship and fairness did what was in his powers.
 
How was the Indian surrender linked to the nature of the pitch? WI batted on the same pitch and had few issues. The Sabina Park pitch was utterly unpredictable as this video shows


There were no fast bowlers in the Indian team unless you count Madan Lal as a "fast" bowler .
 
Sorry, but no.

Gavaskar’s best series in the West Indies was fantastic, but against a feeble bowling “attack”.

Remind me again how many test series the supposedly mighty Pakistan teams of the past won in WI against these feeble bowling attacks. But for Gabriels brain fade last year you would still be without a series win in WI lol
 
I remember those days, no indian was "star" enough to be invited to WSC, had they invited , they would have joined. India was a weak team with not a single fast bowler, Kapil emerged later.

Its like if a Pakistani cricket says he is choosing country over IPL, Lol.
 
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In 1979 WI toured India and lost the series. We are talking about the likes of Gavaskar here who avgd 50 plus againist WI.


How much did Miandad and Zaheer Abbas avg againist WI?

Where were the speed demons of WI in 1979 tour of India?

Playing fast bowling in India is very different than in Australia where WSC was held.

It's natural for these players to be psychologically scarred after being forced to throw in the towel just a year or so earlier....
 
All that the thread proves is how Packer's mercenaries of the 70s were the real trend setters and how many of those have turned into perfect hypocrites as cricket experts now being jealous of T20 stars earning good money
 
All that the thread proves is how Packer's mercenaries of the 70s were the real trend setters and how many of those have turned into perfect hypocrites as cricket experts now being jealous of T20 stars earning good money

That's how it rolls. Certain people are sheer hypocrites.

Another example. For some IPL and other T20 leagues were Mickey mouse tournaments/circuses. Suddenly when they got one of their own, T20 leagues were no longer destroying cricket.
 
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I remember those days, no indian was "star" enough to be invited to WSC, had they invited , they would have joined. India was a weak team with not a single fast bowler, Kapil emerged later.

Its like if a Pakistani cricket says he is choosing country over IPL, Lol.

Gavaskar was not a star? He is still a bigger batting star than Pakistan has ever had.

Bedi was not a Star? If i am not wrong he still has more test wickets than any pakistani spinner.

Ohh and not everyone is a pakistani cricketer.
 
Where were the speed demons of WI in 1979 tour of India?

Playing fast bowling in India is very different than in Australia where WSC was held.

It's natural for these players to be psychologically scarred after being forced to throw in the towel just a year or so earlier....

WSC was a private circus league znd no test cricket.

I understand you think batsman get scarred since the likes of Miandad Abbas etc failed spectacularly againist the WI, but the same is not true regarding a Gavaskar.
 
[MENTION=65183]freelance_cricketer[/MENTION] is one of my favourite posters.

Thanks bro. The feeling is mutual. I appreciate and support your good work. Please keep going strong.
 
[MENTION=65183]freelance_cricketer[/MENTION] is one of my favourite posters.

But this thread is born out of a profound lack of understanding of how Cricket was organised then, and what “loyalty” actually was.

It is a story of race and of dishonour, to be honest.

When Kerry Packer used Ian Chappell and Tony Greig to approach the world’s best cricketers in early 1977, world cricket was run by the ICC out of the Clock Tower at Lords.

Until 12 years earlier it had actually been called the Imperial Cricket Conference, and that was how it behaved.

The old-fashioned British class system had led to the Marylebone Cricket Club controlling the ICC for the sole interests of England, and its cricketing chums in Australia and Apartheid South Africa.

When England dared to contemplate selecting the non-white Basil d’Oliveira to tour South Africa in 1970, the MCC allowed South Africa’s Apartheid government to cancel the tour, and the ICC did nothing whatsoever to sanction South Africa.

The Boards of India, Pakistan and the West Indies did nothing at all in defence of non-white cricketers (or people).

In fact, India plays a proud part in this story - but the Desai government, not the BCCI.

As Tony Greig and Ian Chappell were signing up the world’s best players, the ICC was doing nothing about South Africa. Meanwhile every Board treated its own players with contempt: wages were non-existent, players were only paid (a pittance) while on national duty, and players had to fund their own medical treatment and retirement.

There was no reason to be “loyal” to the disloyal Boards or to the racist ICC.

Kerry Packer brought financial security to his players. He funded their medical treatment.

Meanwhile the Desai government prevailed upon the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting at Gleneagles in June 1977 to introduce the punishment for cricketing contact with Apartheid South Africa that neither the ICC nor the Boards had bothered to.

The heroes of this story are Kerry Packer and the Indian Government.

Between them for the first time they afforded non-white cricketers the same treatment as white ones, and Packer treated his cricketers with a level of respect and care that their own Boards has never done.

POTW.

Really learned a lot from that, having seen a bit of the old ICC in action, that made for fascinating reading. The cricketing media in England were very sympathetic to the South Africans in the 80's from what I can remember. There was anguish at them being banned for their apartheid policy.
 
[MENTION=65183]freelance_cricketer[/MENTION] is one of my favourite posters.

But this thread is born out of a profound lack of understanding of how Cricket was organised then, and what “loyalty” actually was.

It is a story of race and of dishonour, to be honest.

When Kerry Packer used Ian Chappell and Tony Greig to approach the world’s best cricketers in early 1977, world cricket was run by the ICC out of the Clock Tower at Lords.

Until 12 years earlier it had actually been called the Imperial Cricket Conference, and that was how it behaved.

The old-fashioned British class system had led to the Marylebone Cricket Club controlling the ICC for the sole interests of England, and its cricketing chums in Australia and Apartheid South Africa.

When England dared to contemplate selecting the non-white Basil d’Oliveira to tour South Africa in 1970, the MCC allowed South Africa’s Apartheid government to cancel the tour, and the ICC did nothing whatsoever to sanction South Africa.

The Boards of India, Pakistan and the West Indies did nothing at all in defence of non-white cricketers (or people).

In fact, India plays a proud part in this story - but the Desai government, not the BCCI.

As Tony Greig and Ian Chappell were signing up the world’s best players, the ICC was doing nothing about South Africa. Meanwhile every Board treated its own players with contempt: wages were non-existent, players were only paid (a pittance) while on national duty, and players had to fund their own medical treatment and retirement.

There was no reason to be “loyal” to the disloyal Boards or to the racist ICC.

Kerry Packer brought financial security to his players. He funded their medical treatment.

Meanwhile the Desai government prevailed upon the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting at Gleneagles in June 1977 to introduce the punishment for cricketing contact with Apartheid South Africa that neither the ICC nor the Boards had bothered to.

The heroes of this story are Kerry Packer and the Indian Government.

Between them for the first time they afforded non-white cricketers the same treatment as white ones, and Packer treated his cricketers with a level of respect and care that their own Boards has never done.

POTW for me, I didn't know the Indian government was involved in ensuring the players were treated like the money spinners they were. Respect where it's due *doffs cap
 
WSC was a private circus league znd no test cricket.

I understand you think batsman get scarred since the likes of Miandad Abbas etc failed spectacularly againist the WI, but the same is not true regarding a Gavaskar.
As is the ICC!

The 2012 Woolf Report into cricket governance set out what the ICC had to do to act as a world cricket federation.

Like FIFA and the IOC and all such bodies.....

Independent governance.

Prohibition of government interference

Appropriate auditing of spending (Zimbabwe has just misappropriated huge sums, and the BCCI blocked a transparent investigation).

Requirement for each country’s nominees to the ICC to sign up to their loyalty being to the ICC and not their own board.

It was a superb report.

And the BCCI blocked it, saying that the ICC is not a world sport federation but rather a private club. With no loyalty to anyone except it’s senior members.

Which is how we ended up with the Big Three and a Ten Team World Cup.

So never, ever, ever float the line that the ICC is the “official” organisation to whom players owe loyalty.

It’s not. It’s just the biggest predator in he jungle. The ICC is just the dominant private cricket circus.

And believe me, the Aussies and West Indies plying the Packer SuperTests considered themselves to be on national duty in a way in which the D teams playing “official” Tests at the time did not.
 
India was the first country to call off sporting ties with South Africa and also the first country to invite them after they lifted the ghastly system. Rest of the world woke up to their appalling system in the 80s but in 1974 the Indian Government forced our Davis Cup team to give a walkover in the finals to be held in South Africa. We beat Australia in the quarters and Soviet Union in the semis to set up a clash against the African nation and we were heavy favorites, missed out on our best opportunity to win a Davis Cup. Feel sad for Vijay Amritraj who deserved one.

That was our best chance to win the prestigious cup, we made finals on 2 other occasions but along expected lines lost. In 1966 against Australia (Laver, Emerson, Roche) and 1987 against Sweden (Wilander, Edberg). That 1974 miss was one of the greatest opportunities lost in Indian sports, a win there would have spruced up the tennis culture in India at a time we were declining in hockey (1975 WC win was a pleasant surprise) and cricket being a so-so sport. Amritraj and Gavaskar (later Kapil) were equally big brands during their sporting careers but with a bit of luck here and there the tennis star could have become the biggest South Asian sporting icon of those times because of the global appeal of tennis.
 
What I have read from Gavarskar's own book (Idols), the story is completely different. In 1977, Tony Greig was assigned to hire Indian players for WSC and he contacted 3 Indian players (arguably 4 players, Gavaskar didn't mention Kirmani). At that time B.S. Bedi was Indian Captain and he declined to join WSC in his own style (a bit surprising for Tony because Mrs. Bedi was an Aussie). Bedi was selected for World Squad for 1970-71 AUS tour (An alternate cricket tour between AUS Vs Sober's Rest of The World, as replacement of banned SAF team), therefore he was indeed recognized among best players of that era.

GR Vishi was an State of Karnataka employee (don't know his ranks but it was a long term career job), and he used to play for team IND with lien from his employers (he couldn't join Counties also for that reason, his employers didn't allow him 6 months leave). Those days, cricketers didn't earn enough to cover a career long earning of a Govt. Service with benefits, gratuity & pension from couple of years cricket and leaving for WSC meant he would have been out of Indian cricket for good (probably Karnataka cricket as well) - so, Vishi declined.

Gavaskar was the last man and he was by far the highest earning Indian cricketer that time (played for Somerset as well) - from his own words, he was almost convinced by the way his good friend Tony promoted WSC and it's prospects to him. By that time, his 3 bosom friends across Border (Mazid, Imran, Zaheer) already had accepted the offer, and Gavaskar was indeed interested to join the best players on earth. He almost certainly would have joined but for his brother in law - Gundappa R Vishwanath, who finally convinced him to dodge the bullet. ECB (TCCB) didn't call back any of their WSC players and there was a good chance that BCCI won't have either, which GR Vishi could sense. Unofficially (which I read from some blog post, so not creditable source), Gavaskar was rewarded by being appointed Captain (of Indian team) in that same year.
 
India was the first country to call off sporting ties with South Africa and also the first country to invite them after they lifted the ghastly system. Rest of the world woke up to their appalling system in the 80s but in 1974 the Indian Government forced our Davis Cup team to give a walkover in the finals to be held in South Africa. We beat Australia in the quarters and Soviet Union in the semis to set up a clash against the African nation and we were heavy favorites, missed out on our best opportunity to win a Davis Cup. Feel sad for Vijay Amritraj who deserved one.

That was our best chance to win the prestigious cup, we made finals on 2 other occasions but along expected lines lost. In 1966 against Australia (Laver, Emerson, Roche) and 1987 against Sweden (Wilander, Edberg). That 1974 miss was one of the greatest opportunities lost in Indian sports, a win there would have spruced up the tennis culture in India at a time we were declining in hockey (1975 WC win was a pleasant surprise) and cricket being a so-so sport. Amritraj and Gavaskar (later Kapil) were equally big brands during their sporting careers but with a bit of luck here and there the tennis star could have become the biggest South Asian sporting icon of those times because of the global appeal of tennis.

That '66 Aussie team is scary, even with Rosewall not there :O Shame about the withdrawal, it'd have been imo better to play and beat the racist Saffers to prove that whites were not superior to brown or black people.
 
That '66 Aussie team is scary, even with Rosewall not there :O Shame about the withdrawal, it'd have been imo better to play and beat the racist Saffers to prove that whites were not superior to brown or black people.

Australian tennis was insanely powerful once upon a time, a true superpower applying every criteria. Imagine a roster of Laver, Emerson, Rosewall, Newcombe, Roche, Fraser, Hoad, Cooper, Stolle representing the Aussie flag over 15-20 years. And there were another 5-10 elite players being blocked by their own countrymen. Even after being below par for so many decades Aussies have 28 Davis Cup titles, 2nd only to USA at 32 :). We feel sad to see the decline of field hockey in our countries but imagine the plight of Aussie tennis fans who have full time circus clowns like Kyrgios, Tomic representing them after such a rich legacy. Even in women's tennis during the 60s and 70s Australia held sway with Court and Goolagong.

I think withdrawing was a correct choice by us. Brown people were treated disgracefully by the SA govt back then, Indians and Pakistanis suffered as much as the blacks plus didn't have the numbers to mount opposition, so were precariously placed. Moreover India was close to the USSR camp those days and USSR and apartheid SA government were big enemies, so the political and diplomatic angle can't be neglected. Anyway all in all it was a good move by the Indian government, they played a big role in getting worldwide attention to apartheid and subsequent sporting sanctions. A far cry from today's Indian government which lacks moral spine.
 
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Wow some superb posts in this thread. So many potw contenders. Thank you [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and [MENTION=143530]Swashbuckler[/MENTION] for some awesome content..
 
Great thread, I wasn't aware Vaskar and Bedi told Packer to get lost.... Kudos to the Indian players of those dayss..
 
Great thread, I wasn't aware Vaskar and Bedi told Packer to get lost.... Kudos to the Indian players of those dayss..

Bedi rejected Packer's offer with some harsh words, philosophical reasons as noted by the celebrated cricket writer Gideon Haigh. Gavaskar is an entirely different matter. Among the 3/4 Indians offered the WSC contract he was the one most tempted to ditch India. Now there are various theories about who made him reject the offer. MMHS in post #75 offered a theory based on 'Idols', others have read from different sources.

I believe Bedi, the then Indian captain was the one who stopped Sunny from jumping ship. Of course BCCI had a strong relationship with ACB those days, that must have helped the Indian captain force his decision on Indian players, especially the Bombay maestro.

We have seen many so called enmities in Indian camp like Dhoni-Gambhir/Sehwag, Kapil-Sunny, Ashwin-Bhajji, Dravid-Ganguly-Sachin etc. Some of them were real, some were bloated by the notorious Indian media. But often overlooked is the relationship between Sunny and Bedi who were great chums when they started, only for the relationship to go down the dumps. Even today the contrast between them is so obvious, Sunny the BCCI spokesperson who dare not go against his masters and Bedi, the outspoken anti-establishment outcast who regularly makes it known what he thinks of our administrators and direction of Indian cricket.

Gavaskar has always been this vindictive, selfish, money minded albeit professional cricketer (sorry for harsh words, I love Sunny the player) who taught his colleagues how to make money. He was the first Indian cricketer to appear in ads, Bollywood events, cricket exhos, book launches (also penned his own memoirs) besides being a trendsetter as far as brand endorsements was concerned. He himself admitted that he was trying to follow the path of his close buddy Vijay Amritraj who those days was the only globally renowned (tennis=global, not talking about small sports like hockey, squash, wrestling etc) South Asian sportsperson with multi-million dollars worth contracts. Sunny was a talented player but also very ambitious, a trait that wouldn't sit comfortably with other Indian cricketers of those days.

Life in India was simpler, we were growing very slowly, cricket wasn't a money spinner and the pros were happy representing the country with meagre salaries (didn't matter for Pataudi :P). Some of them are on record saying that they used to ensure every match went to an extra day even if victory was in sight, just so that they could have 1 extra day's match fees. Match fees were on per day basis, so wrapping a 5 day match in 3 days meant losing 2 days worth fees. Bedi belonged to this old school of thought, he played for love of the game and for the nation, not for money. Very upright individual and someone who to this day truly embodies the spirit of cricket. He may sound cranky nowadays but remember his opinions haven't changed these last 5 decades meaning he believes what he says and there are no ulterior motives.

He would never tolerate a WSC style league where players could deflect from their countries. So he used his authority to pour water on Gavaskar's plans. The nature of his put-down is unknown but Bedi was a dominating guy and what he did has resulted in lifelong enmity with his once close friend (named his own son Gavas Inder Singh btw). Media circles in India labeled Sunny a 'traitor', who leaked that info or who was pulling the strings is best left to guess but Sunny was persuaded to drop his plans (he had already got a go ahead signal from Bombay Cricket Association) and stick to Indian cricket.

This is the sequence of events that followed:

1. After our loss in Pakistan (under Mushtaq Muhammad) Bedi was made scapegoat and sacked. Sunny was made the new test captain to face the Packer depleted WI (led by Alvin Kallicharan) at home. Chinnaswamy had taken over BCCI and was a close associate of Bombay circles. Sunny didn't speak a word to Bedi during that series and humiliated him at every opportunity. He was given 2-3 over spells from the wrong ends and then sent to fine leg/third man for the next 20 overs.

2. Over the next couple of series Bedi sat more in the bench while Dilip Doshi (SLA) became his replacement. That famous 1979-80 series at home where we beat Pakistan 2-0 didn't feature Bedi.

3. Then came our tour of NZ/Australia. Doshi was doubtful because of injury and selectors called back Bedi as stand by. Gavaskar went and talked them (chief selector Umrigar from Bombay lobby) out of that decision and forced Ravi Shastri's selection as replacement for Bedi. Shastri was selected as a bowler, he developed his batting much later, but somehow was given priority over Sardarji due to his Bombay links and for being a lapdog of Sunny. Doshi played that series carrying injury and did horribly (he later blamed Sunny saying he was forced to play with injury), we drew a brilliant series 1-1 but missed a fit and proper spinner.

4. Bedi called an interview a few days after the selection snub and announced retirement. Used some colourful language, called Sunny corrupt and Shastri a yes man in crude language. He also expressed relief at his decision and spoke at length about how playing under Gavaskar was torture, how he only cares about money, his terrible influence on Indian cricket etc. Pataudi was the editor and okayed the explosive interview.

5. 3-4 years later we toured Pakistan and got routed by Imran's men. Sunny was our captain during that series while Bedi was on the selection panel. It was Bedi who oversaw the sacking of Sunny and making Kapil Dev Indian captain in both formats, just a few months before the 1983 WC. Bombay lobby (under Wankhede-Salve duo) targeted the North Indian axis of Kapil-Bedi for removing their boy but we know how history unfolded :).

PS: Not targeting Mumbaikars or their cricket body, just stating facts and opinions the way I perceive. I may well be wrong in my assessment.
 
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