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Wasn't Brian Lara's 400* a selfish knock?

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King Cobra

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The 400* was a great knock and still stands as the highest score ever in Test matches with only a few coming closer to break it , some have perished a few runs short of 400 and some have selflessely declared there innings - like clarke did today - so that his teams chances of a win can be maximized .

Clarke could have batted all 90 overs on the third day - take his runs tally to well over 400 - and overall lead in region of around 600 and still would have left with 2 full days - 180 overs to bowl out India yet he sacrificed his personal milestone for sake of the team so that if there is a slight intervention by rain Australia still has a lot of time and overs to bowl out India.

Now compare this innings with Lara's 400 , West Indies were 3-0 down in the series and coming into the fourth test , Lara batted for 8 sessions from First Session of Day one till 2nd Session of Day 3 only and only to break Hayden's record of 381 runs leaving no chance of a result in the test match for his team .

Wasnt this a Selfish Knock or the most selfish knock ever ?
 
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Well there is no doubt that Lara had the record on his mind instead of a team win in that match but hey who wouldnt in that scenario ?
 
it was a selfish knock for sure.people r forgetting this knock n bashing RD or Sachin in Clarke appreciation thread:)))
 
A little selfish, but the series was already over.

It was a dead rubber. It wasn't as if the series was up for grabs and he just kept batting.
 
boomboomcheema said:
Well there is no doubt that Lara had the record on his mind instead of a team win in that match but hey who wouldnt in that scenario ?
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Errrrrrr Clarke wouldnt and Clarke didnt . Thats what i think op is asking . If 400 wasnt a selfish knock then no knock can ever be called selfish .
 
eradicator said:
Errrrrrr Clarke wouldnt and Clarke didnt . Thats what i think op is asking . If 400 wasnt a selfish knock then no knock can ever be called selfish .
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It's all about context.

Like I said, the series was over. Essentially, the match was reduced to a 5 day practice.
 
kingusama92 said:
It's all about context.

Like I said, the series was over. Essentially, the match was reduced to a 5 day practice.
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Still who wouldnt want a consolation win in the last test like they always say playing for pride . I think there was a choice between a slight chance of a team victory ( which is very important for a demoralized side like the windies even in a dead rubber ) and personal mileston but Lara choose the 2nd option . Can you find me another knock in the history of Test Cricket more selfish than this one ?
 
WI's were 3-0 down with nothing to lose...so yeah, he did the right thing setting his sights on the world record.
 
No it was not selfish knock. England played well after following on to save the match.
 
Australians have the old habit of doing this . Remember Mark Taylor doing in against Pakistan . 334 not out .
 
kingusama92 said:
A little selfish, but the series was already over.

It was a dead rubber. It wasn't as if the series was up for grabs and he just kept batting.
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a test match is a test match.as Chappell said today u play to win n thats what should top all milestones

n god forbid,if Sachin or RD did anything like that,they'd been criticized as hell.m sure what would most PP'ers would have made of that
 
The Aussies real priority is winning, of course they love personal milestones but do not ever compromise a winning position, respect.
 
Saurav said:
a test match is a test match.as Chappell said today u play to win n thats what should top all milestones

n god forbid,if Sachin or RD did anything like that,they'd been criticized as hell.m sure what would most PP'ers would have made of that
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Indeed, like I said it was a little selfish.

Not sure if it was the most selfish of all time, though. I am sure there are knocks that have been worse.
 
eradicator said:
Still who wouldnt want a consolation win in the last test like they always say playing for pride . I think there was a choice between a slight chance of a team victory ( which is very important for a demoralized side like the windies even in a dead rubber ) and personal mileston but Lara choose the 2nd option . Can you find me another knock in the history of Test Cricket more selfish than this one ?
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Lara didn't waste time getting to 400 as far as i remember, i may be wrong though so dont quote me on that, its been a while. Considering the pitch, quality of west indian bowling and English domination, i dont think he made the wrong call. The game would have been a draw regardless as the pitch eased out a lot.

Having said that, he could have tried to force a result by declaring early, no denying that if you think from a winning point of view. He could have shown more belief in his bowler to force a result but West Indies played like ********* and a result would not have been a possibility even if he declared a bit earlier. So instead of forcing a result {which was a far cry** he went for the record and gave his people something to cheer bout, something that, even today after that long, people still talk bout? I am just speculating though and in no way trying to justify his action, which to a purest was/is an selfish act.

As for as Clarke is concerned, series is on the line, his bowlers are pumped up and indians are totally lost, so his selfless act is totally justified because he could take another step towards claiming the series with this win?

As for as selfish innings are concerned, there are many, it becomes a selfish innings when you CHANGE your flow/slowdown for personal glory and i am sure you have witnessed enough in your backyard where batsmen take 10 to 15 deliveries from 95-100 when before 95, they are playing at more than 100{Strike rate**.
 
the real thing is ... if he knew they can't force a win ... looking at 3 tests before that one .. .you may say ... it wasn't cos there wasn't anything else to play for .. so the only thing was up for grab was that record
 
Saurav said:
a test match is a test match.as Chappell said today u play to win n thats what should top all milestones

n god forbid,if Sachin or RD did anything like that,they'd been criticized as hell.m sure what would most PP'ers would have made of that
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A dead rubber is a dead rubber, many teams let newbies play the dead rubbers for experience, its not true for Aussies though, they have been going all out even in dead rubbers to stamp their authority, to spread fear and earn more respect, its been like that since Aussies-Domination {or their golden age however you put it**, i didnt really see West Indians when they ruled so dont know how did they react to dead rubber games, other than that, every other team kind of takes it easy in dead rubbers specially when a whitewash is not a possibility either.
 
ecstatic_freak said:
A dead rubber is a dead rubber, many teams let newbies play the dead rubbers for experience, its not true for Aussies though, they have been going all out even in dead rubbers to stamp their authority, to spread fear and earn more respect, its been like that since Aussies-Domination {or their golden age however you put it**, i didnt really see West Indians when they ruled so dont know how did they react to dead rubber games, other than that, every other team kind of takes it easy in dead rubbers specially when a whitewash is not a possibility either.
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And in which dead rubbers do teams bat for 8 sessions ? Over 200 overs ?
 
ecstatic_freak said:
Lara didn't waste time getting to 400 as far as i remember, i may be wrong though so dont quote me on that, its been a while. Considering the pitch, quality of west indian bowling and English domination, i dont think he made the wrong call. The game would have been a draw regardless as the pitch eased out a lot.

Having said that, he could have tried to force a result by declaring early, no denying that if you think from a winning point of view. He could have shown more belief in his bowler to force a result but West Indies played like ********* and a result would not have been a possibility even if he declared a bit earlier. So instead of forcing a result {which was a far cry** he went for the record and gave his people something to cheer bout, something that, even today after that long, people still talk bout? I am just speculating though and in no way trying to justify his action, which to a purest was/is an selfish act.

As for as Clarke is concerned, series is on the line, his bowlers are pumped up and indians are totally lost, so his selfless act is totally justified because he could take another step towards claiming the series with this win?

As for as selfish innings are concerned, there are many, it becomes a selfish innings when you CHANGE your flow/slowdown for personal glory and i am sure you have witnessed enough in your backyard where batsmen take 10 to 15 deliveries from 95-100 when before 95, they are playing at more than 100{Strike rate**.
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From when onwards has Strike rate become a factor in Tests ? Tell me a single more selfish knock than 400 after which the team had no chance of a victory in tests ?
 
King Cobra said:
And in which dead rubbers do teams bat for 8 sessions ? Over 200 overs ?
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Remember Srilanka scoring that world record against India when Jaya scored a tripple 100? That wasn't even a dead rubber was it? lol There are so many games dude, give me sometime, i might recall lol
 
eradicator said:
From when onwards has Strike rate become a factor in Tests ? Tell me a single more selfish knock than 400 after which the team had no chance of a victory in tests ?
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I just you an example of an innings, you didn't ask me specifically for a test match innings and i am not sure dude, i dont look at records, stats or score cards, i just talk bout things that i remember or may recall over the head. So give me sometime, let me think bout the games i have watched so far, i am sure i'd remember some for you
 
ecstatic_freak said:
A dead rubber is a dead rubber, many teams let newbies play the dead rubbers for experience, its not true for Aussies though, they have been going all out even in dead rubbers to stamp their authority, to spread fear and earn more respect, its been like that since Aussies-Domination {or their golden age however you put it**, i didnt really see West Indians when they ruled so dont know how did they react to dead rubber games, other than that, every other team kind of takes it easy in dead rubbers specially when a whitewash is not a possibility either.
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not in test matches mate,ALL teams play full strength in tests unless injuries r there.

playing over 2 days is killing all chances of win a flat pitch.win is more than every milestone,its okay if the match result is pretty much decided,but in 1st innings u gotta look to win
 
ecstatic_freak said:
Remember Srilanka scoring that world record against India when Jaya scored a tripple 100? That wasn't even a dead rubber was it? lol There are so many games dude, give me sometime, i might recall lol
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Good Recal But Lankans can be excused to some extent because India put up more than 500 runs in the first Innings so it was natural that Lankans were going to bat for a very long time , here Lara batted in the first Innings .
 
kingusama92 said:
It's all about context.

Like I said, the series was over. Essentially, the match was reduced to a 5 day practice.
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You should try and win every test match shudnt you?

I think Lara delcared somewhere after lunch on day 3, that means one innings lasted half the test match.
 
haroonrasheed320 said:
Rahul Dravid declared when Sachin was on like 194, and Selfish Sachin went on to bash Dravid in public http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2006/jul/31wright.htm but what dravid did was better for the match.
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What had this got to do with whether the knock played by Lara was a selfish or not ? If 194 was a selfish knock where the team actually won then howcome 400* which resulted in a dull draw wasnt a selfish knock ?
 
lol @ some people who are making it look like dead rubber matches should only be a perfect opportunity to make personal records and team win can be compromised for good . If every team started playing dead rubbers for personal milsetones then we will see teams batting for 5 days and batsmen scoring 700-800 runs but that doesnt happen because everyone wants to win .
 
Totally selfish, and slightly overrated too. Harmison had him caught behind on zero and it wasn't given by the umpire.
 
Saurav said:
not in test matches mate,ALL teams play full strength in tests unless injuries r there.

playing over 2 days is killing all chances of win a flat pitch.win is more than every milestone,its okay if the match result is pretty much decided,but in 1st innings u gotta look to win
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Alrite here is another one, remember when india lost to pakistan in india and pakistan came back out of nowhere after Sehwag's dismissal? Sehwag actually lashed out on his team mates for "playing for a draw" when they could have atleast put Pakistan on backfoot by counter attacking but instead they all went back to their shells and didn't even try scoring and got out tuk tukking ball after ball?
 
Whippy said:
Totally selfish, and slightly overrated too. Harmison had him caught behind on zero and it wasn't given by the umpire.
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Remember him getting dropped a couple of times as well, I think all the other triple centuries I've seen have been of a better quality, easily.

He did demolish Batty though, amazing player of spin
 
ecstatic_freak said:
Alrite here is another one, remember when india lost to pakistan in india and pakistan came back out of nowhere after Sehwag's dismissal? Sehwag actually lashed out on his team mates for "playing for a draw" when they could have atleast put Pakistan on backfoot by counter attacking but instead they all went back to their shells and didn't even try scoring and got out tuk tukking ball after ball?
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Yeh true, poor Captaini from Ganguly. Really was!:sami
 
ecstatic_freak said:
Alrite here is another one, remember when india lost to pakistan in india and pakistan came back out of nowhere after Sehwag's dismissal? Sehwag actually lashed out on his team mates for "playing for a draw" when they could have atleast put Pakistan on backfoot by counter attacking but instead they all went back to their shells and didn't even try scoring and got out tuk tukking ball after ball?
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there are many instances where teams have play cautiously or over cautious to try to protect thier series lead,thats not the point here,its putting urself ahead of the team.380 is a big chase n I wasnt surprised with thier approiach,problem was they overdid it
 
England batted in that match for 236 overs in 2 innings making 707/15 @ almost 3 runs per over to save the match. It was good test match batting from the English side under pressure to avoid defeat.
 
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ecstatic_freak said:
Alrite here is another one, remember when india lost to pakistan in india and pakistan came back out of nowhere after Sehwag's dismissal? Sehwag actually lashed out on his team mates for "playing for a draw" when they could have atleast put Pakistan on backfoot by counter attacking but instead they all went back to their shells and didn't even try scoring and got out tuk tukking ball after ball?
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lol wat a comparison . India needed 383 in 90 overs which was never possible with or without Sehwag .
 
yeah that and west indies batted too long,i mean when lara batted across 3 days it's not like the west indies already knew in advance england would bat out time for a draw.

It was impressive that he regained his record but it was clearly an innings of indulgence rather than an innings that benefited the teams needs.
 
Saurav said:
but he was selfish,no??
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Yes but I think even if he was selfish what he did was ideal , he must have thought that west Indies arent going to win this match anyways so its better I create my own record since this is a chance only of a lifetime .
 
Would be no similar excuses for Tendulkar if he did the same
 
in_cutter said:
WI's were 3-0 down with nothing to lose...so yeah, he did the right thing setting his sights on the world record.
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:))) :)),, funny lot some of you Pakistanis..... AnywAY back to the topic it was the most selfish innings I had ever seen instead of trying to save face and winning a test match all he thought of was the record,,,
 
Derek Randall said:
Yes WI could have won that match if they had had more time to bowl England out
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This .

Finally an obvious answer . Had Windies declared around 600-650 within two days , they could have really pushed on for the win .

There is no chance of result in a test match if the first innings takes 8 out of 15 match sessions to get completed .
 
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Certainly was a bit selfish, but with Windies being 3-0 down and so demoralized, one could argue that Lara relaiming the record was a far bigger morale booster for the team and the country than a consolation victory would have been.
 
Shayan said:
Certainly was a bit selfish, but with Windies being 3-0 down and so demoralized, one could argue that Lara relaiming the record was a far bigger morale booster for the team and the country than a consolation victory would have been.
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Means for Lara , his team and his country , individual records hold more importance than a team win . That sound svery selfish tbh .
 
Shayan said:
Certainly was a bit selfish, but with Windies being 3-0 down and so demoralized, one could argue that Lara relaiming the record was a far bigger morale booster for the team and the country than a consolation victory would have been.
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hypothetical question.if India lose this n next test n in last test India needs 200 in 2 session.Tendulkar gets his 100th 100 but India draw.would u still say the same,just answer yes or no,n be honest.
 
Saurav said:
hypothetical question.if India lose this n next test n in last test India needs 200 in 2 session.Tendulkar gets his 100th 100 but India draw.would u still say the same,just answer yes or no,n be honest.
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for past 10 years, we have opinion for sachin. Yes, Sachin is a selfish player.
 
eradicator said:
Means for Lara , his team and his country , individual records hold more importance than a team win . That sound svery selfish tbh .
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That particular individual record, in that particular situation, yes. I'm not saying it's right, but it's true.

Saurav said:
hypothetical question.if India lose this n next test n in last test India needs 200 in 2 session.Tendulkar gets his 100th 100 but India draw.would u still say the same,just answer yes or no,n be honest.
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That's a tough one because I don't think it's fair to compare this Indian team to that West Indies team. However, I think I would say exactly the same thing. I would say it was a bit selfish, but in that situation, most Indians would rather see Tendulkar's 100th ton than a consolation Indian win.

Again, it's not right, but it's true.
 
Shayan said:
That particular individual record, in that particular situation, yes. I'm not saying it's right, but it's true.



That's a tough one because I don't think it's fair to compare this Indian team to that West Indies team. However, I think I would say exactly the same thing. I would say it was a bit selfish, but in that situation, most Indians would rather see Tendulkar's 100th ton than a consolation Indian win.

Again, it's not right, but it's true.
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okay.atleast u r sticking by it unlike most other Pakistani PPers,if u know what I mean:D
 
Shayan said:
That particular individual record, in that particular situation, yes. I'm not saying it's right, but it's true.



That's a tough one because I don't think it's fair to compare this Indian team to that West Indies team. However, I think I would say exactly the same thing. I would say it was a bit selfish, but in that situation, most Indians would rather see Tendulkar's 100th ton than a consolation Indian win.

.
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Not really . 100th 100 will be celebrated but not at the expense of a possible victory . Team's morale is lifted by teams victory not by how one individual performs , Dravid was in great form throughout the series in England but his lone performances werent enough to charge and cheer rest of his team-mates who had developed a total loser mentality .
 
West Indies fans heckled the English players from the moment they landed that year, bloody anglais, Lara is gonna kill you etc (I read this). When we boshed both West Indies and Lara, the public needed a big innings and a non-loss to make them think they were still a force and stuff. I'll take the 3-0 win and the 3 thrashings.
 
I think people forgot that it was the first innings of the game. West Indies were thinking of giving the follow on to england, which they did, but they were 5 wickets short from winning the game
 
Vaughan and Flintoff basically breezed to a draw in the end. Selfish Lara.
 
eradicator said:
Not really . 100th 100 will be celebrated but not at the expense of a possible victory . Team's morale is lifted by teams victory not by how one individual performs , Dravid was in great form throughout the series in England but his lone performances werent enough to charge and cheer rest of his team-mates who had developed a total loser mentality .
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Dravid having a good series doesn't really hold the same significance (to fans) as Lara's 400 or Tendulkar's 100th ton though.

I'll stick by what I said, in that 4th test, most West Indies fans would have preferred a Lara 400 over a consolation win.

Similarly, if India are 3-0 down in the current series, and Indian fans had a choice between seeing Sachin's 100th ton or a consolation win, most would choose the 100th ton.
 
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shahrukh619 said:
I think people forgot that it was the first innings of the game. West Indies were thinking of giving the follow on to england, which they did, but they were 5 wickets short from winning the game
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Batting for 8 Sessions only to give the follow on :)) . They just played 50% of the test match and only one inning got completed .
 
shahrukh619 said:
I think people forgot that it was the first innings of the game. West Indies were thinking of giving the follow on to england, which they did, but they were 5 wickets short from winning the game
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The fact that it was the 1st innings of the game is precisely why it was selfish. Lara knew he still needed to take 20 English wickets.
 
I think there can never be a 400+ match winning knock , anyone who goes on to play so long will take the match to a draw position and think thats why clarke declared after triple century so that the chances of a win remain intact .
 
hafeezrocks said:
I think there can never be a 400+ match winning knock , anyone who goes on to play so long will take the match to a draw position and think thats why clarke declared after triple century so that the chances of a win remain intact .
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unless its Sehwag:D
 
No, Only Sachin Innings in losses can be selfish no matter how he plays. Lara's 400 is not selfish enough....
 
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haroonrasheed320 said:
Rahul Dravid declared when Sachin was on like 194, and Selfish Sachin went on to bash Dravid in public http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2006/jul/31wright.htm but what dravid did was better for the match.
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Lol..You guys cant wait for Sachin to bash someone or say something. No Mate, he wont whether you agree or not ...he is one of the most well behaved cricketer ever after so many yrs and so much fame. Lol at bashing...he only said he was surprised and anybody would if team declared on 194* ...Lol at your experssion " Selfish sachin went on to bash dravid on public" Okay :D
 
That inning Probably was But generally speaking Lara was never a selfish player as I have seen him play since his first debut back in 1992. He could have got much more runs if he was more selective with his shots but he was always an attacking player that's why a lot of us love him for the player he became.
 
Saurav said:
unless its Sehwag:D
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Ok I think there can never be a 400+ match winning knock outside the subcontinent , anyone who goes on to play so long will take the match to a draw position and think thats why clarke declared after triple century so that the chances of a win remain intact .


Now am sure ftb Sehwag cant score 400 outside the subcontinent leave alone a match winning contribution .
 
King Cobra said:
The 400* was a great knock and still stands as the highest score ever in Test matches with only a few coming closer to break it , some have perished a few runs short of 400 and some have selflessely declared there innings - like clarke did today - so that his teams chances of a win can be maximized .

Clarke could have batted all 90 overs on the third day - take his runs tally to well over 400 - and overall lead in region of around 600 and still would have left with 2 full days - 180 overs to bowl out India yet he sacrificed his personal milestone for sake of the team so that if there is a slight intervention by rain Australia still has a lot of time and overs to bowl out India.

Now compare this innings with Lara's 400 , West Indies were 3-0 down in the series and coming into the fourth test , Lara batted for 8 sessions from First Session of Day one till 2nd Session of Day 3 only and only to break Hayden's record of 381 runs leaving no chance of a result in the test match for his team .

Wasnt this a Selfish Knock or the most selfish knock ever ?
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In a sense it was selfish in that it removed any chance of his team winning the match. In fact, I think WI needed 5 wickets on the final day to win and ran out of time. That said, that pitch was pretty lifeless from Day 1 and it was the end of a series in which they had been thrashed anyway, so didn't make a difference to the big picture.
 
Agree Batting into the third day was selfish - there was no reason why WI couldnt have declared at 500-600 and give themselves another couple of sessions to bowl out the english
 
hafeezrocks said:
Ok I think there can never be a 400+ match winning knock outside the subcontinent , anyone who goes on to play so long will take the match to a draw position and think thats why clarke declared after triple century so that the chances of a win remain intact .


Now am sure ftb Sehwag cant score 400 outside the subcontinent leave alone a match winning contribution .
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yes Sehwag on a flat track only

but seriously even if Clarke had gone on make 400 it wouldnt have been selfish,he still had two days to take 10 wickets.
 
Depends at how you look at it.

I remember West Indies had a terrible series getting slaughtered and the last test was going nowhere, there was nothing to salvage. Lara then went into his groove and the record beckoned and all were geeing him to break Haydens record and reclaim the world record, including the commentators.

If you look back on it through statistics it may appear selfish, but that record brought smiles back to the Windies fans and I guess a bit of pride, which otherwise would not have happened.
 
lara400 said:
, but that record brought smiles back to the Windies fans and I guess a bit of pride, which otherwise would not have happened.
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Thats it, SRT's records also bring smiles to plenty of his fans, glad you agree that its ok provided the fan base is happy....
 
The thing is the world remembers a 400* rather than a WI win in that test match really. I'd go for it and so would many if you were in that situation. Regardless of whether he was out or not, it was a magnificent display of concentration etc.
 
Perhaps it's just a cultural thing in certain countries they seem to value individual achievements more than team, in Australia it's always team first everything else second.

For example i think a lot of indian fans wouldn't be that sad if they lose this test as long as tendulkar gets a ton.
 
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