As per my understanding the whole problem in Islamabad is based on charges of rigging against the PMLN. Some level rigging happen in elections all over the world. And last election s were considered quite fair considering standard of past elections in Pakistan. Feeling sad after losing is OK but creating this mess just because you lost is really pathetic on part of IK. Tomorrow who can blame army from taking over when political parties don't gives damn about democratic process.
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Weak Democracy of Pakistan!
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Saeed
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Forget about democracy, there was no real democracy until PTI came. It was rather Dictatorship vs Monarchy. Both PMNL and PPP have made it into a family business. Imran Khan was right when he said their children will rule and so on, so somebody had to break this cycle.
Sakss
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I think the people are weak...
So it's not a democracy until your favorite party wins.Wow! Do u know their are at least 4 parties in India who can gather crowd of a few lakhs in Delhi and lost last election.But you won't see that happening here.Democratic process demands patience.The people who voted for PMLN are also Pakistanis even though may not be in Twitter or PP.
lilFlip
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When (2nd?) chief of election commission admitted on public TV there is rigging... 
what else can you ask for?
Pakistani people are rising against corruption and people are blaming them for doing so. Incredible.
what else can you ask for?Pakistani people are rising against corruption and people are blaming them for doing so. Incredible.
Saeed
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You don't get it, do you? The point is not who wins the elections. The point is that election should be free and fair. If N-League had won the elections fairly then I am sure everybody would have been fine. But they rigged openly and when Imran asked question, they refused to answer. Now what else was Imran Khan suppose to do? Have patience so they can rig in next elections too? At some point, somebody has to do something to stop this.
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When (2nd?) chief of election commission admitted on public TV there is rigging...
Pakistani people are rising against corruption and people are blaming them for doing so. Incredible.
For gods sake that guy was an additional secretary not the freaking chief.
So this is mode of operations in Pakistan to solve the problem of rigging in few seats. I would like to ask what would have been results in your opinion(in numbers) had their been no rigging. Also haven't PTI been guilty of rigging in KP province?My only point is that in civilized world these matters are discussed in courts not in streets. What do you think will be the best case scenario for you in this situation.
Lords
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Democracy is a culture. Its not an artificial system which can be imposed on people with force (Bush) or Dharna (Khan).
It takes its roots in masses first before taking over the country. It cannot be installed or uprooted once it takes over. It has to evolve with contributions from different generations before it gets customized according to that country. You cannot compare one democracy with another. Also its like a slow growing plant, dont expect miracles overnight.
Sadly pakistan doesnt have this culture, it doesnt show in grass root level like political parties, PCB, Army etc .
Pakistan should stop thinking about a perfect democracy right now and just give their generation's contribution for this culture so that their future generation can have a better system.
It takes its roots in masses first before taking over the country. It cannot be installed or uprooted once it takes over. It has to evolve with contributions from different generations before it gets customized according to that country. You cannot compare one democracy with another. Also its like a slow growing plant, dont expect miracles overnight.
Sadly pakistan doesnt have this culture, it doesnt show in grass root level like political parties, PCB, Army etc .
Pakistan should stop thinking about a perfect democracy right now and just give their generation's contribution for this culture so that their future generation can have a better system.
My friend standard of elections in India was bad in 70-80s but net result was negligible as every party used to do it. Democracy demands time to mature.It is an administrative problem rather than political.And I am sure rigging didn't change net tally drastically.Which can be seen through the meagre no of people gathered by these two leaders.If IK had such a mass base their would have been protest in every street and corner. Did you really believe IK had chance of being single largest party.
Tera Gawaandi
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I think democracy is not suited for Pakistan in current circumstances, opportunity was lost in previous decades to strengthen it. Now its futile to waste next 3 decades minimum to bear fruits. It was okay in 50s, 60s, 70, 80s to have patience and iron out the wrinkles. Everything was moving slow in that era, Now you wait even 10 more years, rest of world will be far ahead of you. No way Pakistan can afford it now when population increase is exploding. Ground realities suggests Pakistan needs a decisive form of governance with minimum bureaucracy.
I am anti-Imran, because of his me-me attitude, he refers to himself as third person on most occasions haha. But I do agree with zest of Pakistanis that democracy is stalling the progress of the country.
I am anti-Imran, because of his me-me attitude, he refers to himself as third person on most occasions haha. But I do agree with zest of Pakistanis that democracy is stalling the progress of the country.
Lords
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Democracy is a culture. Its not an artificial system which can be imposed on people with force (Bush) or Dharna (Khan).
It takes its roots in masses first before taking over the country. It cannot be installed or uprooted once it takes over. It has to evolve with contributions from different generations before it gets customized according to that country. You cannot compare one democracy with another. Also its like a slow growing plant, dont expect miracles overnight.
Sadly pakistan doesnt have this culture, it doesnt show in grass root level like political parties, PCB, Army etc .
Pakistan should stop thinking about a perfect democracy right now and just give their generation's contribution for this culture so that their future generation can have a better system.
It takes its roots in masses first before taking over the country. It cannot be installed or uprooted once it takes over. It has to evolve with contributions from different generations before it gets customized according to that country. You cannot compare one democracy with another. Also its like a slow growing plant, dont expect miracles overnight.
Sadly pakistan doesnt have this culture, it doesnt show in grass root level like political parties, PCB, Army etc .
Pakistan should stop thinking about a perfect democracy right now and just give their generation's contribution for this culture so that their future generation can have a better system.
Tera Gawaandi
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India payed very very huge price for democracy, Indira was always irked by Sikhs who filled jails during her emergency. Sheer hatred for a minority community due to political reasons resulted in Golden Temple attacks, her death and riots that followed.
Tera Gawaandi
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Biggest pillar of Indian democracy is village panchayat, empower them and see the results.
I know brother.But it was democracy which made Sikh an integral part of the country as it insured that their voice are counted.Intact the leaders with dictatorial tendencies have harmed India more like Indira. While Democratic leaders like vajpayee ,shastri,Nehru made India a better place
DW44
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Basically, this. It's sad when an Indian can sum up the situation better than most Pakistanis because they're busy going meri party vs teri party 24/7.
Saqs
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This is very true. Which is why I would have liked this five year term to go ahead with no problems so we could have Atleast had two continuous cycles.
People would have got used to the idea and concept. And slowly slowly progress would have been made.
But as with most other things we have looked for shortcuts rather than lasting change.
Still hoping for the best out of this long march though. Ganja needs to be held accountable if indeed there was mass rigging.
Saqs
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No. Its not democracy when elections were mass rigged as is the argument being presented.
IMMY69
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Democracy is only one aspect the other is the catastrophic fraud, swindling, corruption of the highest order by recent leaders. So yes clean up the country of these scum and then re-introduce democracy
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thelandofthebravepeople
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Imran Khan made cancer hospital in memory of his mother.
Imran two sons will make mental hospital in memory of their father.
Imran two sons will make mental hospital in memory of their father.
Mamoon
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^ Okay, quite hilarious but a bit uncalled for.
Hopefully Nawaz would give free land to his sons just like he gave one to his father.
Hopefully Nawaz would give free land to his sons just like he gave one to his father.
pakistanigoneaussie
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^ Okay, quite hilarious but a bit uncalled for.
Hopefully Nawaz would give free land to his sons just like he gave one to his father.
that's just propaganda
Ghanja is the son of the devil
I want toask how massively were these election rigged? Was PTI to get majority if their was no rigging.The number of crowd proves otherwise. And if you believe in here say than PTI also rigged in KPK. Its sad that any tom, dick and harry can gather crowd in capital and hijack the nation. Who gave IK the authority. If he had any base would at least have been near the mark of PMLN. Mr. Khan you waited 15 years for WC surely you could wait one cycle this time.
because they know how democracy works better than us unlike Pakistanis who always look for martial law after few yearsAnother Indian creating a thread to support a corrupt leader in Pakistan
KarachiKing
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very interesting point
Fastandfurious
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Either a Gullu Butt or an Indian.
Offcourse they do and no one is asking for martial laws, point is that you HAVE to hold people responsible for their actions. You must ensure no one can get away with CHEATING the system. You know the main two ruling parties (PPP and PMLN) have been black mailing each others for years with proof of each other's corruption but no one takes any action against each other in the interest of democracy. Any honest person can never tolerate that and hence all this.
They were asked politely to launch investigation into rigging but they pretty much said in nice words SHUT THE HELL UP AND WAIT FOR NEXT ELECTIONS. All the legal options were considered and used before getting into this but their manipulation of institutions ensured no outcome, whatever is happening in my opinion is exaggerated reaction but there was hardly any options. I don't agree with resignation of Prime Minister though, surely there are ways to ensure PM cannot intervene rigging investigations.
That is part of our political system. Remember what ik used to said about sheikh rasheed but now he is advisor. What ik used to say about mqm that he will destroy mqm and altaf Hussain. He is a killer. What ik do nothing, they are almost their allies now.
And I am confident that once ik come in power he will do nothing against the people who he is blaming now.
Nearly 75% complains are resolved in tribunals. One constituency of NA 122 ayaz sadiq is in court so tribunal can't make decision on it. Tribunal dismissed humid khan complain because according to judges he misbehaved with judge. Another one is on tareen which tribunal declare other person winner but tareen goes to court so it's still out of tribunal. This leaves only one constituency which is of ns, so it was just an excuse in my thinking.
What you are saying is byproduct of any democracy. 200 years back elections in USA were worse.Judicial discourse is only remedy in such matters.Otherwise you will be committing one crime in hope of getting justice against another crime. This feudal mindset will throw you many years back
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If that was the case then why was there a reluctance to investigate rigging on 4 seats? What was reason ex NADRA chief Tarqi Malik was harassed ans sacked?
Like I said it was only one seat. And even its not justied to put country to all this for four seats.
I remember one interview where shafqat mehmood said if any rigging found in any seat then we will ask for more and so on.
So it was not 4 seats but to prove whole election was rigged that's why govt doesn't not go with that.
Indiafan
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Hey, I already have a similar thread and with a much more dramatic title
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?206602-The-death-of-democracy
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?206602-The-death-of-democracy
So you don't believe it's an issue if they found rigging on 4 seats? That's what you are not understanding, it's not about 1 or 2 or 200 seats, point is if there was rigging then don't you want to punish people who are involved?
Yes it is an issue but not that big which IK making. Do you want to punish those who rigged or punish the country.
Indiafan
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Goerge Bush was supposed to have rigged 50k votes in Florida. He won Florida by around 500 votes. If not, Gore would have won. Was there a revolution there? He was even re-elected. And because there was no revolution, for the first time in history, America was able to elect a black President because of sustained democracy
Such loss, chaos and complete disruption over 4 seats is not justifiable in any context
UsmanhailsAfridi
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Would you say anything to make your point? Bush rigged the election? Lmao
Please come again. There was miscounting in one constituent which impacted the entire election. It was not even close to "rigging". In America a politician resigns after he is alleged of doing something. They don't make them Presidents from all thing for doing the wrong thing. Please stop comparing Pakistan system with America, 2 different worlds.
UsmanhailsAfridi
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Can you please stop posting things without evidence? Whichever seats have been opened by independent commissions massive rigging has been found and it has been documented in detailed reports published by these commissions.
Na-118. 69 polling bags had relevant material. 256 bags with irrelevant material. 15k out of 46k votes very verifiable, rest couldn't be verified. 4k votes were found to be casted using invalid ID card. And these findings were only from 68 out of the 251 polling stations as that's all the material that was available.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/719730/electoral-fraud-nadra-finds-rigging-in-records-of-na-118/
The point isn't who would have won or not, the point is that those who were involved must be sought out, punished so that a precedent is set to make the process better in the future. The govt was asked to open 4 seats, they had so much majority why didn't they oblige if they knew well that they had nothing to hide? Instead they went and got stay order and 15 months later not a single seat has been recounted. Instead more delay tactics and foul play with judges throwing out cases and pending judgements.
Rigging isn't new to Pakistan. Bhutto also came into power the 2nd time trough rigging and ask anyone that his party didn't need to rig the election they would have won anyway but for whatever reason, be it to gain majority in the parliament, the rigged and people came out on the streets and rest is history.
If democracy means no accountability for the powerful then I sure spit on such an ideology. What we have in Pakistan is a business of looting. And like any good professional businessman they know how to game the system to make sure they take turns and continue to loot the country. For 5 years we had a known felon be our president in the name of democracy only to be replaced by another convict and traitor.
You have not read my post. I only talked about 4 seats which ik demand. Not any other.
Btw ik do not trust these tribunals then why you trust these raports.
That's double standards if reports come in ik favour then we accept if not then we reject and these tribunals are not trustworthy. Either accept tribunals and their reports or reject
Indiafan
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Er, there is clear documented fact
Bush only won Florida by 500 votes. Majority of blacks and Hispanics (democrats demographic) were not allowed to vote. The supreme court rejected demand for recount
I have given you examples of how corruption was rampant in the US and corrupt politicians were elcted again to power
You say in America, a politician resigns after misconduct. But this process is in place after centuries of trial and error of democracy, it was not true when their democracy was only 100 years old
Indiafan
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Another Indian creating a thread to support a corrupt leader in Pakistan
The intellectual downfall here is obvious. Despite most people here saying clear reasons why they are against this march, and why not a single one of them support Sharif but the idea of democracy, it looks like some PTI supporters have resorted only to name calling and such asinine statements
It is clear who the blind followers are, while people are writing paragraphs of points and opinions, these guys are just resorting to name calling. And the reason is because they are finding it more and more difficult to justify their leader's stance. Almost like a cult leader has brainwashed them
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You are just not getting it, 4 seats were selected but there was suspicion of rigging on many different seats. Vote recounting and verification on 4 seats would have confirmed if there was widespread rigging and if there was none or minimal, everyone would have shut up and moved on, why is that so difficult?
Also, we aren't talking about slight miscalculations but rather vote stuffing and illegal ballot paper printing by people who are federal ministers.
You can call it intellectual downfall or whatever you want but i do have problem when a so called prime minister is involved in widespread rigging and they don't believe any investigation is required despite confirmation that over 50,000 fake/unverified votes were found in few constituencies they managed to investigate. You think it's threat to democracy to ask for re verification and i think it will strengthen the democracy if investigation of rigging is conducted.
UsmanhailsAfridi
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You can't go around claiming the Bush was involved in the rigging of the elections. That was surely not the case. The error was administrative at best. They don't let riggers get away here, this aint Pakistan or India Sir.
UsmanhailsAfridi
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Please name one American President who was involved in corruption and was allowed to continue or re-elected as a felon.
You want the people of Pakistan to wait a 100 years to get food on their tables? We aren't in the 18th century Sir, the world is advancing at the speed of light. Yet our rulers want us to live in the stone age while they live in palaces the richest in America can't afford.
UsmanhailsAfridi
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this isn't a report by the tribunal, the tribunal is sitting on these findings and doing nothing. Any neutral tribunal would have nullified the results long time ago.
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One_life_stand
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When (2nd?) chief of election commission admitted on public TV there is rigging...
Pakistani people are rising against corruption and people are blaming them for doing so. Incredible.
My fren...please make google your best friend before posting something false...The guy was so fake and now he is hiding somewhere as truth came out lol
One_life_stand
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The numbers are 1000 for PTI and 5000 illiterate PAT supporters
One_life_stand
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wow...are you kidding me...Every American president in last 20 plus years has blood on his hands and that too of his own people and of countless muslims. Shame that you forgot all those innocent people killed. Wish you didn't write this !
One_life_stand
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You are wrong again ! read this
http://tribune.com.pk/story/744508/...polling-stations-in-gujranwala-null-and-void/
UsmanhailsAfridi
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HUH? Please think before you speak. Which people of his that the American President has killed? Please keep your opinion on treatment of Muslims around the world to yourself. Let's not get into a debate of how all the problems of the world for the Muslims are due to the Americans. If you support leaders like Nawaz who are puppets of the west and lick their feet then you deserve all the problems you got.
UsmanhailsAfridi
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How am i wrong? If anything this article proves there is rigging. That's one tribunal making a decision after 15 months, while they were only given 4 months to make their decisions. Are the rest of the tribunals waiting for another 2 years of free pay to make their decisions or are they waiting for the next elections after which no one is gonna care about what happ in 2013.
UsmanhailsAfridi
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what truth came out?
You just posted an article stating there is rigging...he probably got threatened like Nadra's chief was threatened and had to run away from the country
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