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West can never pull out of the Middle East - The Times

Cpt. Rishwat

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West can never pull out of the Middle East

richard spencer

Whatever our leaders say, British and American forces will always have a presence in the region

The vote was decisive and critical: parliament would not support military action in Syria. Forget the chemical weapons attacks, the barrel bombs, regime death squads and the threat of jihad, Britain had had enough of foreign entanglements. No more could we tolerate the stigma of RAF bombers hitting civilian targets, or British troops dying from roadside mines and snipers’ potshots. The Syria vote of August 2013 humiliated David Cameron and his foreign secretary, William Hague, but seemed popular around the country. There are few street protests in favour of war.

MPs and the public back then might have been surprised to learn that, six years later, RAF jets have been conducting large-scale aerial campaigns over Syria, and that British soldiers are still roaming the Syrian deserts. Yet that is the case. Our troops, mostly special forces, have been there for years now — another “endless war” that hasn’t ended even after President Trump’s “bring them home” announcement last month.

They might have been surprised but they shouldn’t have been, for it is a pattern that is constantly repeated. “There will be no return to Afghanistan”, read the headlines in 2014, as Mr Cameron pledged to end Britain’s involvement in the conflict 13 years after British forces went in. Fast forward to June last year and The Times carried the headline “Afghan chief in plea for British troops”, followed a month later by the announcement that 400 more were on their way.

Over in the United States, pacifist braggadocio has become an election selling point, which is odd for a country which maintains 11 aircraft carrier fleets around the world. What are they to do under President Trump’s electoral promise of “America First”? Mr Trump has now been echoed by at least two of his main Democratic challengers. Bernie Sanders, in response to Mr Trump’s Syria announcement, reminded voters that he was the original pacifist. “I am a strong opponent of endless wars,” he said. Elizabeth Warren went further. She has demanded that the US “get out of the Middle East” altogether.

And who can blame them, after all this time, and after all the lives lost in Afghanistan, Iraq and their destabilised neighbours? The only hint that things might not be so simple is when you consider that Sanders statement. Who, does he imagine, stands for an election as a strong proponent of endless wars?

Luckily, we have an answer from recent history to the aircraft carrier question, at least. President Obama spent eight years trying to live up to his own promise to extricate America from the Middle East. He boldly refused to bomb Syria, in defiance of some of his own advisers, he refused to back American allies, like President Mubarak of Egypt, when they used force against their own people, and above all he acted on his pledge to pull troops out of Iraq. In his Nobel Prize-winning “speech to the Muslim world” in Cairo in 2009, he used words very similar to Bernie Sanders to express his opposition to regime change wars. Mr Sanders’s manifesto pledges that his administration would “clarify its commitment to democratic values abroad”, while also “working collectively with allies to address shared security concerns”. This all sounds great but what if your allies are Egypt and Saudi Arabia?

Within three years of Mr Obama pulling out of Iraq, US troops were back (along with the British). A year later, Saudi Arabia went to war in Yemen. By that time, jets flying from all those US aircraft carriers were bombing Syria anyway. Where Assad’s sarin attacks failed, Islamic State’s atrocities succeeded.

This serial failure is not just happenstance. From the dismantling of the Ottoman Empire by the British and French, through the rise of the house of Saud, to the establishment of the state of Israel, western countries have been embedded for good or ill in the security infrastructure of the Middle East. For good or ill: most people, both in the Middle East and in the West, might say for ill but embedded we are, and when we pledge withdrawal even those words alone create opportunities for the most agile (and invariably most brutal) regional actors to exploit.

The immediate victims are often vulnerable minorities and it is notable that some of the loudest western voices in support of the Middle East’s Christians, Yazidis and Kurds have also been the most hostile to “western intervention”: how do they think these communities will be protected? In the longer term, the very unpopularity of western allies like Saudi Arabia and Israel is a reflection of their importance to our own concerns. We may not like the way their governments operate but it seems unlikely that our absence would make them more likely to behave in ways that enable the West to “focus on our core interests”, as Mr Sanders wants.

The demand to end endless wars is similar to that other great populist cry, to just “get Brexit done”. In both cases, the populism is rooted in a reasonable prejudice. You do not have to be a pacifist to decry the impulse to change other countries’ regimes, just as diehard Remainers can still be uncomfortable with the corporatisation of power that the EU so often seems to represent. But, as we know, announcing an exit and finding the door are very different things.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/west-can-never-pull-out-of-the-middle-east-qxvxrrbx6


I read it this morning but didn't really understand what is the West's commitment to the middle east. Seems to be saying if it wasn't for the west, then lots of nasty people would be inflicting misery on other people in the middle east.

How is that our responsibility?
 
I read it this morning but didn't really understand what is the West's commitment to the middle east. Seems to be saying if it wasn't for the west, then lots of nasty people would be inflicting misery on other people in the middle east.

How is that our responsibility?

Power of nightmares. If there is no bogeyman then there is no control on society.

It is widely regarded that regime change is not the answer. Alas! Too late in the ME, but rest assured the West is not going anywhere while Israel is controlling US politics (The House & The Senate).

The irony is of course the likes of Al-Qaeda and ISIS are the result of the power vacuum created by the USA, in essence, aforementioned organisations are the creation of USA foreign policy in the ME.
 
Power of nightmares. If there is no bogeyman then there is no control on society.

It is widely regarded that regime change is not the answer. Alas! Too late in the ME, but rest assured the West is not going anywhere while Israel is controlling US politics (The House & The Senate).

The irony is of course the likes of Al-Qaeda and ISIS are the result of the power vacuum created by the USA, in essence, aforementioned organisations are the creation of USA foreign policy in the ME.

I was actually quite looking forward to reading that article, but found it to be an insult to the intelligence of the average reader. This is the Times, not the daily Star, readers are not stupid enough to think we spend billions of £££s to rescue some marsh Shi'ites or Houthis in Yemen because there are some nasty bogey men out there.

Also, I am not sure why the writer thinks his views are representative for 'the west'. Doesn't the USA have it's own interests? What about Australia? If we are as one with Germany and France, why did we vote for Brexit? Very weird article, where I'm not sure the writer has actually expressed what he truly wanted to say.
 
Idea has always been to keep making trouble then play peacemakers.
 
State imperialistic terrorism , nothing else.

The west are not the good guys at all. Trump openly has said its about the oil, he only cares about the oil. 16 years ago they needed to lie but now it's said in the open, no pointing hiding or claiming to be the saviours of the world when it's too late and everyone knows you are the aggressors.
[MENTION=144392]mustang[/MENTION] Any comments on this thread? You believe the US was in the middle east to further peace :)))
 
I read it this morning but didn't really understand what is the West's commitment to the middle east. Seems to be saying if it wasn't for the west, then lots of nasty people would be inflicting misery on other people in the middle east.

How is that our responsibility?

The UNSC raises a Resolution against some horror or other and the Western troops follow.

Or the flag follows the money, then the troops follow the flag.

Roll on the day when we don’t need oil.
 
The UNSC raises a Resolution against some horror or other and the Western troops follow.

Or the flag follows the money, then the troops follow the flag.

Roll on the day when we don’t need oil.

Can you give me an idea Robert as to why the likes of Bush and Blair have not been tried for war crimes? Do you feel the Western world has any credibilty left at all?
 
State imperialistic terrorism , nothing else.

The west are not the good guys at all. Trump openly has said its about the oil, he only cares about the oil. 16 years ago they needed to lie but now it's said in the open, no pointing hiding or claiming to be the saviours of the world when it's too late and everyone knows you are the aggressors.
[MENTION=144392]mustang[/MENTION] Any comments on this thread? You believe the US was in the middle east to further peace :)))

Of course not. My point is that no country is an angel or perfect. I have mentioned those exact words multiple times in these forums. Every national entity acts in its own strategic interests and that is the simple harsh truth. If the weaklings (middle east in this case) were stronger they would do what the current stronger nations do (and history also confirms this).

There is no good country or bad country. There are only self-interested countries.
 
The UNSC raises a Resolution against some horror or other and the Western troops follow.

Or the flag follows the money, then the troops follow the flag.

Roll on the day when we don’t need oil.

Well said! I was among the troops during couple of occasions, even I concur with this. Thing is, this is true for ALL countries, so no point complaining about just the west.
 
Of course not. My point is that no country is an angel or perfect. I have mentioned those exact words multiple times in these forums. Every national entity acts in its own strategic interests and that is the simple harsh truth. If the weaklings (middle east in this case) were stronger they would do what the current stronger nations do (and history also confirms this).

There is no good country or bad country. There are only self-interested countries.

Thanks for the response, please do not go from this debate. This is going to be great. :)

Lets discuss the US role in the middle east. Lets start with you, as you have mentioned you are a soldier who has been part of the occupying force. Was this in Iraq? Can you justify US invading and bombing and occupying Iraq in 2003? Or do you already admit if was only for US interests, ie. state imperialism, state terrorism?
 
Thanks for the response, please do not go from this debate. This is going to be great. :)

Lets discuss the US role in the middle east. Lets start with you, as you have mentioned you are a soldier who has been part of the occupying force. Was this in Iraq? Can you justify US invading and bombing and occupying Iraq in 2003? Or do you already admit if was only for US interests, ie. state imperialism, state terrorism?

Prefer not to reveal specific details of campaigns. I was in 2 campaigns - middle east and south-central Asia. As a soldier you primarily fight for your loyalty to the flag and for your comrades. Political debates about reasonings for wars are an entire issue altogether. I think you are confusing the 2 if you mix the 2 and are debating a soldier about ideological reasonings. My personal reason to fight would be different from the state's reasoning especially when you are on the ground. You are approaching this purely from a political debate point of view which does not work when you are delving into my personal details (givewn the dichotomy of reasonings I stated).
 
Thanks for the response, please do not go from this debate. This is going to be great. :)

Lets discuss the US role in the middle east. Lets start with you, as you have mentioned you are a soldier who has been part of the occupying force. Was this in Iraq? Can you justify US invading and bombing and occupying Iraq in 2003? Or do you already admit if was only for US interests, ie. state imperialism, state terrorism?

For example - you just stated that Taliban are only fighting for self defense in another thread. Is that true? Is that something you actually believe? Do you not acknowledge their ill treatment of fellow muslims (men and women)? I have seen these people in person and seen the suffering of common people there, thanks to Taliban's rise on the back of Pakistan's army and ISI. Pakistan knew what Taliban were culpable of and they continued to fuel Taliban's rise. They were equally guilty. Yet, from a political standpoint we see many pro-Pakistan people ignore and continue to vend the koolaid that they believe in.

My point is every nation is an equal part of good and evil ... there are no angels or satans ... only self-interests.
 
Prefer not to reveal specific details of campaigns. I was in 2 campaigns - middle east and south-central Asia. As a soldier you primarily fight for your loyalty to the flag and for your comrades. Political debates about reasonings for wars are an entire issue altogether. I think you are confusing the 2 if you mix the 2 and are debating a soldier about ideological reasonings. My personal reason to fight would be different from the state's reasoning especially when you are on the ground. You are approaching this purely from a political debate point of view which does not work when you are delving into my personal details (givewn the dichotomy of reasonings I stated).

You are free to join the army, nobody forces anyone. Plenty of soldiers have spoken up against the immoral wars they were sent to fight. You cannot use the excuse of fighting where you are told to fight when you chose to join an army.

For example - you just stated that Taliban are only fighting for self defense in another thread. Is that true? Is that something you actually believe? Do you not acknowledge their ill treatment of fellow muslims (men and women)? I have seen these people in person and seen the suffering of common people there, thanks to Taliban's rise on the back of Pakistan's army and ISI. Pakistan knew what Taliban were culpable of and they continued to fuel Taliban's rise. They were equally guilty. Yet, from a political standpoint we see many pro-Pakistan people ignore and continue to vend the koolaid that they believe in.

My point is every nation is an equal part of good and evil ... there are no angels or satans ... only self-interests.

I dont agree with anything the Taliban do but this is an umberalla name for the resistance in Afghanistan made up of many groups. They all have the right to self defence against occupation, just as you would if I occupied your house/land.

US Wars have killed millions, this is clear bad or even evil. Just because they claim it's self interests doesnt make it just.

Do you accept the Iraq war was immoral?
 
You are free to join the army, nobody forces anyone. Plenty of soldiers have spoken up against the immoral wars they were sent to fight. You cannot use the excuse of fighting where you are told to fight when you chose to join an army.



I dont agree with anything the Taliban do but this is an umberalla name for the resistance in Afghanistan made up of many groups. They all have the right to self defence against occupation, just as you would if I occupied your house/land.

US Wars have killed millions, this is clear bad or even evil. Just because they claim it's self interests doesnt make it just.

Do you accept the Iraq war was immoral?

You are free to join the army but you are not free to join or not join a war by the said army.

Taliban_execute_Zarmeena_in_Kabul_in1999_RAWA.jpg

^^ - Public execution of a woman, known as Zarmeena, by the Taliban at the Ghazi Sports Stadium, Kabul, November 16, 1999. The mother of seven children had been found guilty of killing her husband while he slept, after allegedly being beaten by him.

Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women

Do you accept that it is immoral of Pakistan to have supported the rise of Taliban which brought misery to the Afghan people?
 
You are free to join the army but you are not free to join or not join a war by the said army.

View attachment 96894

^^ - Public execution of a woman, known as Zarmeena, by the Taliban at the Ghazi Sports Stadium, Kabul, November 16, 1999. The mother of seven children had been found guilty of killing her husband while he slept, after allegedly being beaten by him.

Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women

Do you accept that it is immoral of Pakistan to have supported the rise of Taliban which brought misery to the Afghan people?

One more

Taliban_beating_woman_in_public_RAWA.jpg

A member of the Taliban's religious police beating an Afghan woman in Kabul on August 26, 2001. The footage, filmed by the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, can be seen at http://pz.rawa.org/rawasongs/movie/beating.mpg

Same Wikipedia source.

These are people created by Pakistan for their own selfish interests. If Pakistan truly cares about muslims and are the savior of all muslims (as they sometimes claim) then things like Bangladesh genocide or above Taliban issues will never have happened.
 
You are free to join the army but you are not free to join or not join a war by the said army.

View attachment 96894

^^ - Public execution of a woman, known as Zarmeena, by the Taliban at the Ghazi Sports Stadium, Kabul, November 16, 1999. The mother of seven children had been found guilty of killing her husband while he slept, after allegedly being beaten by him.

Source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women

Do you accept that it is immoral of Pakistan to have supported the rise of Taliban which brought misery to the Afghan people?

Plenty of absconded because they didnt want to point guns at innocent women and children but you thought it was heroic to do so.

You haven't answered my question and I have already stated I dont agree with anything the Taliban does apart from self defence.

You are being a typical Indian trying to divert.

But ill answer. No Pakistan did the right thing.

You want to see some pictures? I can post hundreds but here's 3.


abu2.jpg

abu3.jpg

abu4.jpg

Do you accept the Iraq war was immoral? Second time Im asking, do not lose the little credibility you have !
 
Theres no point it seems we are breaking the house rules.

So Ill keep it simple, the US is not in the middle east because it cares for the people. It is there for theft of natural resources and to destroy the nations they invade. Only a criminal can defend this.
 
Theres no point it seems we are breaking the house rules.

So Ill keep it simple, the US is not in the middle east because it cares for the people. It is there for theft of natural resources and to destroy the nations they invade. Only a criminal can defend this.

and my response is that every other country is also guilty of such actions so there is no point in accusing just one. If you use a certain standard to judge a country, then by that same standard all other countries are also equally culpable. Look at the forest and not one tree - when it comes to judging international policies.

I will leave it at this because anything more than this seems to be nitpicking in order to coerce me into some preconceived narrative ... and breaking any of the house rules.
 
Of course not. My point is that no country is an angel or perfect. I have mentioned those exact words multiple times in these forums. Every national entity acts in its own strategic interests and that is the simple harsh truth. If the weaklings (middle east in this case) were stronger they would do what the current stronger nations do (and history also confirms this).

There is no good country or bad country. There are only self-interested countries.

Well I don't mind if we would simply say this, obviously we can't necessarily maintain our lifestyle here in the west without sending troops abroad, otherwise why would we do it? It may make us feel better to say that Gaddafi/Saddam/Noriega/Castro et all worship the devil and pull babies out of incubators, but this only works on the simple minded. I think there are far less of those these days and we should perhaps be more open about the need to secure foreign resources for our way of life.

Also, don't you think it's a bit presumptuous that the writer feels like he is speaking for the whole western world? As independent nations we don't all have the same interests in the middle east surely?
 
Well said! I was among the troops during couple of occasions, even I concur with this. Thing is, this is true for ALL countries, so no point complaining about just the west.

I copied it from a great Marine actually - General Smedley Butler, who came to view himself as an enforcer for the Capones of Wall Street.
 
Well I don't mind if we would simply say this, obviously we can't necessarily maintain our lifestyle here in the west without sending troops abroad, otherwise why would we do it? It may make us feel better to say that Gaddafi/Saddam/Noriega/Castro et all worship the devil and pull babies out of incubators, but this only works on the simple minded. I think there are far less of those these days and we should perhaps be more open about the need to secure foreign resources for our way of life.

Also, don't you think it's a bit presumptuous that the writer feels like he is speaking for the whole western world? As independent nations we don't all have the same interests in the middle east surely?

It's one thing to say no country is an angel or perfect, but quite another to have a bias against Pakistan and Muslims.

His justification and reluctance to answer an straight forward question on Iraq is a testament to the brainwashing by the US Government. His defense is he was taking orders, funny, because the Nazis said the same thing.
 
Theres no point it seems we are breaking the house rules.

So Ill keep it simple, the US is not in the middle east because it cares for the people. It is there for theft of natural resources and to destroy the nations they invade. Only a criminal can defend this.

He knows that, but he has sworn an oath to defend the US Flag at all costs. Brainwashing at its finest.
 
He knows that, but he has sworn an oath to defend the US Flag at all costs. Brainwashing at its finest.

He wrote US is there for peace. lol.

I challenged him to answer if the Iraq war immoral but he couldn't.

Not sure why anyone can claim the west in the middle east as peacekeepers esp now since Trump has openely said, its about the oil!
 
Well I don't mind if we would simply say this, obviously we can't necessarily maintain our lifestyle here in the west without sending troops abroad, otherwise why would we do it? It may make us feel better to say that Gaddafi/Saddam/Noriega/Castro et all worship the devil and pull babies out of incubators, but this only works on the simple minded. I think there are far less of those these days and we should perhaps be more open about the need to secure foreign resources for our way of life.

Also, don't you think it's a bit presumptuous that the writer feels like he is speaking for the whole western world? As independent nations we don't all have the same interests in the middle east surely?

Quite true. You have to also consider that we largely think of UK as an obedient follower of what we do and maybe that has influenced the writer's choice of words. Not getting into the semantics of whether that is right or wrong but that is the prevalent consensus here. I think it could be a result of UK's America-centric foreign policies.
 
He wrote US is there for peace. lol.

I challenged him to answer if the Iraq war immoral but he couldn't.

Not sure why anyone can claim the west in the middle east as peacekeepers esp now since Trump has openely said, its about the oil!

Trump is his commander in chief. Trump speaks, he obeys. That's the most worrying part.
 
Trump is his commander in chief. Trump speaks, he obeys. That's the most worrying part.

The notion soldiers are not to blame as they only follow orders is old school and a cop out. There is no conscription, you choose to join an army and are therefore responsible for your actions. Plenty have realised it's a immoral criminal war and have refused to 'serve'. I understand them, I'd rather do a few months in prison than point a gun at a child in their land!

The other excuse is the all nations do this blah blah. This is not true at all, no nation has interefered or used wmds as much as the US, nowhere near. US has some great people, beautiful land but it's governments are nothing but criminal and have been for half a century!
 
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