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What are your feelings on Hansie Cronje? (His entire confession included)

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Here's Hansie Cronje's complete written confession to the South African cricket board -

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...hwJx_-&sig=AHIEtbQdTcIVPzEILQS4y3dxDouM9tYcdQ


I tried revisiting the entire Hansie Cronje match fixing episode since the last couple of days. On one hand a part of me really despise him for what he did, then again a part of me want to forgive him since he died 10 years ago, and the matter has been dead ever since.

What he did is really unforgivable. Do you find yourself having a soft corner for the person because of his untimely death at the mere age of 32?
 
A great leader a winning ratio of 75% in ODI the and best ever which i think could have been better if it was not for his greed. Its hard to know which of those loses were genuine which lives a bad taste in my mouth.
 
soso_killer said:
A great leader a winning ratio of 75% in ODI the and best ever which i think could have been better if it was not for his greed. Its hard to know which of those loses were genuine which lives a bad taste in my mouth.
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The point is do you find yourself forgiving him for his deeds?
 
I can't seem to recall him play any remarkable innings. My impression of him was that he was a good man manager and leader but not exactly possessor of an abundance of talent.
 
Saqs said:
I can't seem to recall him play any remarkable innings. My impression of him was that he was a good man manager and leader but not exactly possessor of an abundance of talent.
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He was an excellent player of spin, one of the best I've seen (excluding subcontinent players). That takes talent.
 
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The only corrupt cricketer I know who had the balls to admit his guilt, and the decency to apologise to his countrymen.
 
He apologised unlike the corrupt three we have so that makes a big difference and the guy died at a very young age too so don't harbour much hard feelings for him but than again I'm not South African.
 
Mo Dipsy said:
He was an excellent player of spin, one of the best I've seen (excluding subcontinent players). That takes talent.
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Yeap my bad I remember now that his talent against spin was good. Better than any other SA player I've seen since besides ABD
 
He led his country immediately after the end of Apartheid, and the players whom he targeted individually to fix were primarily the vulnerable, poorer non-white ones.

I never forgave him, but I feel sorry for him and for his widow.

Lastly, anyone interested should read up about the cause of the plane crash. It was remarkably similar to the death 15 years earlier of Mozambique President Samora Machel, whose widow Graca is now married to Nelson Mandela.

When I've been to South Africa, it has been widely accepted that both were due to false safety beacons placed in order to induce a crash, and it is assumed - but unproveable - that elements within the former Apartheid Bureau Of State Security (BOSS) moved into freelance work after the end of Apartheid, and now do private sector contracts.

Of course, if it's true we will never know.

Seriously, it's remarkable how non-Pakistanis implicated in fixing can be rehabilitated so totally.

Of the 1996 players in the South African dressing room at Mumbai, whose discussions about throwing an ODI were recorded on oath at the King Commission:

- one is the Chief Executive of the ICC,
- one is the Chairman of Selectors of South Africa,
- one is the Coach of South Africa.

Marlon Samuels served a two year ban for his interactions with bookies, and is now one of Wisden's Cricketers of the Year.
 
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Since he died at a young age sort of hard to harbour hate now but certainly a disgraced individual.
 
I have no soft corners for Hansie. He was a greedy rat who tried to drag others in with him.

The fact his team was prepared to sit & discuss the fixing terms, rather than tell them to rack off tells me something was very wrong in that shed.

His playing and captaincy are over-rated in that period IMO. As a batter he was sub-par and as a captain he led a team too frightened to lose to ever chase a win.
 
At least he admitted it. It takes a man to apologise. :butt :asif :danish
 
Cheat. Deserved the life ban, along with all of the others in that era (Azharuddin, Malik, Jadeja and so on).
 
spaceshot said:
That was Kepler Wessels.
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Wessels captained South Africa from before the end of Apartheid until October 1994, when Cronje replaced him.

But Apartheid ended on 9 May 1994. So the difference is miniscule: my point is that Cronje preyed on the vulnerable.
 
best caprain ever...makes you wonder how many matches we could have won if he was not a cheat? i forgave him years ago. he admitted an apologised unllike others.......
 
Varun said:
Cheat. Deserved the life ban, along with all of the others in that era (Azharuddin, Malik, Jadeja and so on).
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I can't stand the other match fixers, but I do have a soft corner for Hansie. Maybe it's because of his early death.
 
Varun said:
Cheat. Deserved the life ban, along with all of the others in that era (Azharuddin, Malik, Jadeja and so on).
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To be captaining the side and be involved in cheating when your team is not a strong one ( India of the 90s) is totally unpardonable. Life ban is not sufficient...
 
IndianWillow said:
To be captaining the side and be involved in cheating when your team is not a strong one ( India of the 90s) is totally unpardonable. Life ban is not sufficient...
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Cricket boards can't do anything other than life ban. If court find them guilty then fixers can be put behind bars.
 
Junaids said:
He led his country immediately after the end of Apartheid, and the players whom he targeted individually to fix were primarily the vulnerable, poorer non-white ones.

I never forgave him, but I feel sorry for him and for his widow.

Lastly, anyone interested should read up about the cause of the plane crash. It was remarkably similar to the death 15 years earlier of Mozambique President Samora Machel, whose widow Graca is now married to Nelson Mandela.

When I've been to South Africa, it has been widely accepted that "both" were due to false safety beacons placed in order to induce a crash, and it is assumed - but unproveable - that elements within the former Apartheid Bureau Of State Security (BOSS) moved into freelance work after the end of Apartheid, and now do private sector contracts.

Of course, if it's true we will never know.

Seriously, it's remarkable how non-Pakistanis implicated in fixing can be rehabilitated so totally.

Of the 1996 players in the South African dressing room at Mumbai, whose discussions about throwing an ODI were recorded on oath at the King Commission:

- one is the Chief Executive of the ICC,
- one is the Chairman of Selectors of South Africa,
- one is the Coach of South Africa.

Marlon Samuels served a two year ban for his interactions with bookies, and is now one of Wisden's Cricketers of the Year.
Click to expand...
i'm sorry dude but i have to say you are one of the worst posters here on PP.
Always coming up with baseless and unsubstantiated allegations with nothing to prove them.
Comparing Hansie's death to that of Samora Machel is ridiculous. The was nothing political about Hansie's death.
Junaids said:
Wessels captained South Africa from before the end of Apartheid until October 1994, when Cronje replaced him.

But Apartheid ended on 9 May 1994. So the difference is miniscule: my point is that Cronje preyed on the vulnerable.
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Load of rubbish again, Apartheid laws were abandoned in 1990 and on the 20th of December 1991 CODESA was formed to negotiate the changeover. You have no idea what you're talking about.
By the way the date you've mentioned above is the date that Mandela was elected as the president of this country.
 
soso_killer said:
i'm sorry dude but i have to say you are one of the worst posters here on PP.
Always coming up with baseless and unsubstantiated allegations with nothing to prove them.
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However, he believes that Amir and Asif are innocent and wants them back pronto, enough fodder to claim that he's off his rocker.
 
What he did to the game is unpardonable. If he were alive, I wouldn't want him involved in the game - not because he may do it again but to act as a deterrent.
 
Buffet said:
Cricket boards can't do anything other than life ban. If court find them guilty then fixers can be put behind bars.
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I don't want them behind bars. These days when murderers are walking off with a few years of jail ( life imprisonment with significant reduction for good behavior in jail and parole often reduces their term to five or six years) it does not make sense to put cricketers in jail.

They should be heavily fined - so heavily fined that no cricketer will risk doing it.
 
Just finished seeing the Cronje episode on the Netflix series "Bad Sport".

Must say I now see Cronje in a bit different light. Yes, he did sell himself for dollars. But he is still the only match-fixer who actually admitted to his transgressions, unlike so many others who till this day deny any wrongdoing on their part.
 
I know it's all conjecture now but what would've happened to SA cricket had Cronje been alive at least till he retired on his own?

Would SA cricket have been better off or worse off had he been alive and clean and had only the best interests of SA cricket in his heart?
 
I have close to zero tolerance for fixing and fixers. Cronje though did at least have some dignity and honour in the way he responded publicly after the fixing came to light. That is far more than Salman Butt showed.
 
MP2011 said:
I know it's all conjecture now but what would've happened to SA cricket had Cronje been alive at least till he retired on his own?

Would SA cricket have been better off or worse off had he been alive and clean and had only the best interests of SA cricket in his heart?
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I think its naïve to think that one person can make such a big difference. Cronje was a great captain, but I don't see South Africa cricket being any better off or worse off than they were later on, had he been clean and alive.

Maybe they wouldn't have been eliminated from the first round of the 2003 World Cup. But South Africa cricket would have had the same trajectory with or without Cronje at the helm.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
I think its naïve to think that one person can make such a big difference. Cronje was a great captain, but I don't see South Africa cricket being any better off or worse off than they were later on, had he been clean and alive.

Maybe they wouldn't have been eliminated from the first round of the 2003 World Cup. But South Africa cricket would have had the same trajectory with or without Cronje at the helm.
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Agree with this. Smith in any case was a great leader especially when we consider he assumed captaincy at the tender age of 22 and in those dark days!

However, in the current environment of SA cricket, I think a Cronje-like figure would've probably done wonders for SA cricket.
 
MP2011 said:
Agree with this. Smith in any case was a great leader especially when we consider he assumed captaincy at the tender age of 22 and in those dark days!

However, in the current environment of SA cricket, I think a Cronje-like figure would've probably done wonders for SA cricket.
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I'm not sure he would have.

South Africa's problems are deep-rooted. Centuries of subjugation and racism towards the majority from a minority have created a deeply unequal society, that is unequal in all walks of life. On top of all that, having an almost all-white cricket administration does not help either from an optics point of view...especially in the aftermath of the revelations that have come out of the SJN hearings. And regardless of who is at the helm or how many token gestures they make, the problems will stay the same because racism is still deeply prevalent in South African cricket, while improving the social mobility of blacks will still take alot more time.
 
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RedwoodOriginal said:
I'm not sure he would have.

South Africa's problems are deep-rooted. Centuries of subjugation and racism towards the majority from a minority have created a deeply unequal society, that is unequal in all walks of life. On top of all that, having an almost all-white cricket administration does not help either from an optics point of view...especially in the aftermath of the revelations that have come out of the SJN hearings. And regardless of who is at the helm or how many token gestures they make, the problems will stay the same because racism is still deeply prevalent in South African cricket, while improving the social mobility of blacks will still take alot more time.
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This is all true. However, these problems didn't surface when Cronje or even Smith (for the majority of his career at least) was at the helm of SA cricket affairs.

Cronje even got players of color (Boje, Gibbs, Ntini) to play under him. Why is it that CSA is now feeling compelled to play so many colored players in the SA squad? Why have they even appointed someone like Bavuma as captain who is strictly average? Is the pressure from the colored community in SA so much?
 
MP2011 said:
This is all true. However, these problems didn't surface when Cronje or even Smith (for the majority of his career at least) was at the helm of SA cricket affairs.

Cronje even got players of color (Boje, Gibbs, Ntini) to play under him. Why is it that CSA is now feeling compelled to play so many colored players in the SA squad? Why have they even appointed someone like Bavuma as captain who is strictly average? Is the pressure from the colored community in SA so much?
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For one thing, all the revelations that came out happened under Smith's captaincy tenure. So I don't feel its correct to say those things didn't happen under his watch.

I also don't think you can give all the credit for those players to Cronje. Because the players were selected by the selectors based on their performances. And even if he did give them a chance in the playing eleven, is not being a rabid racist really something that needs to be celebrated?

I simply don't believe in the idea that one man (however noble and good he may be) can singlehandedly bring that kind of change. And the reason for that is because there are always a number of factors that are simply not within his control.

Change happens incrementally. Because you cannot reverse decades of social, economic, political turmoil overnight.

The quota policy you are mentioning is a step in that direction. And needless to say, I support it fully. As well as the decision to make Bavuma captain. South African youth need black role models that they would want to emulate. And fast-tracking black players to the team or making average players like Bavuma captain is perfectly fair when you consider the social and economic disadvantage that most blacks in South Africa are at in comparison to the whites. They do not come from affluent backgrounds like the whites or go to prestigious schools where they are taught to play cricket from childhood. Most of them are lucky to go to school at all.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
For one thing, all the revelations that came out happened under Smith's captaincy tenure. So I don't feel its correct to say those things didn't happen under his watch.

I also don't think you can give all the credit for those players to Cronje. Because the players were selected by the selectors based on their performances. And even if he did give them a chance in the playing eleven, is not being a rabid racist really something that needs to be celebrated?

I simply don't believe in the idea that one man (however noble and good he may be) can singlehandedly bring that kind of change. And the reason for that is because there are always a number of factors that are simply not within his control.

Change happens incrementally. Because you cannot reverse decades of social, economic, political turmoil overnight.

The quota policy you are mentioning is a step in that direction. And needless to say, I support it fully. As well as the decision to make Bavuma captain. South African youth need black role models that they would want to emulate. And fast-tracking black players to the team or making average players like Bavuma captain is perfectly fair when you consider the social and economic disadvantage that most blacks in South Africa are at in comparison to the whites. They do not come from affluent backgrounds like the whites or go to prestigious schools where they are taught to play cricket from childhood. Most of them are lucky to go to school at all.
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Thanks for the detailed reply.

Agree with this notion that black kids need all the motivation they get. Scars from decades of subjugation won't go in a few years.
 
1999 semi final between Australia vs South Africa will always be my greatest non Bharat regret in Cricket.

If South Africa went on to lift the 1999 WC which would have made it 2 in 2 for them considering they won the Chanpions Trophy in 1998, the history of the game as we know it now would have changed. That South African team was a killer. They also played better in Asia compared to the Aussies.
 
Bhaijaan said:
1999 semi final between Australia vs South Africa will always be my greatest non Bharat regret in Cricket.

If South Africa went on to lift the 1999 WC which would have made it 2 in 2 for them considering they won the Chanpions Trophy in 1998, the history of the game as we know it now would have changed. That South African team was a killer. They also played better in Asia compared to the Aussies.
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Some people think if South Africa would have made it there was a high chance Pakistan would have won the World Cup.
 
MP2011 said:
This is all true. However, these problems didn't surface when Cronje or even Smith (for the majority of his career at least) was at the helm of SA cricket affairs.

Cronje even got players of color (Boje, Gibbs, Ntini) to play under him. Why is it that CSA is now feeling compelled to play so many colored players in the SA squad? Why have they even appointed someone like Bavuma as captain who is strictly average? Is the pressure from the colored community in SA so much?
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And Cronje actually targeted these players of color for his intimidation to fix matches because they were vulnerable.
I can imagine Cronjie walking to Donald to fix a game and getting his nose smashed.
 
Dr_Bassim said:
Some people think if South Africa would have made it there was a high chance Pakistan would have won the World Cup.
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That’s exactly what i am addressing. This assumption is based on what happened in 1999 and on many instances afterwards. Although the story of heart breaks for them started in 1992 but it’s really the 1999 one that started the whole chokers narrative.

I am saying had they beaten Aussies that day in the semi final they would have entered the final as a proper contender without the chokers tag. From there on, anyone of Pakistan or South Africa winning the cup would have changed history of the game.

Pakistan winning it would have made it 2 CWCs in 7 years
3 major trophies in 10 years from 4 tournaments.
Wasim’s legacy and that of every cricketer in that Pak team would have been enhanced especially those that were also part of 1992
 
Wasim Akram’s resume if Pakistan had won the 1999 CWC :-

  • 1985 World Championship - Runner-up
  • 1989 World Series (Nehru Cup) - Champion & Star performer
  • 1992 CWC - Champion & Finals MOTM
  • 1999 CWC - Champion Captain
From 1985-1999, Wasim would have featured in 4(5) tournament finals and would have won 3 of them


Despite the defeat he’s still a GOAT contender and revered everywhere including Bharat as the undisputed greatest left arm pacer and greatest white ball pacer and among the greatest ever test pacers

If he had won in 1999 though, he would be assured Mount Rushmore contender for Cricket. Currently i have got WG Grace, Bradman, Tendulkar & Warne
 
MP2011 said:
Just finished seeing the Cronje episode on the Netflix series "Bad Sport".

Must say I now see Cronje in a bit different light. Yes, he did sell himself for dollars. But he is still the only match-fixer who actually admitted to his transgressions, unlike so many others who till this day deny any wrongdoing on their part.
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It takes a big man to clean, and we saw the consequences of what happened when he came clean. He paid for his confession with his life. Perhaps that made others stay silent.

90's were a very murky time across cricket as a whole. The more powerful got away with it. Even with the Cronje affair its highly convenient that only black players were named, the narrative is that they were weaker and vulerable but I think its equally as likely that the authorities were too scared of taking on the big names and conveniently buried a few black guys.

Australian fixing got buried too, in Pakistan a few fall guys got banned and some big names played on, some Indians got done for "associating with book makers" but big players were kept safe.
 
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