What can the PCB learn from the BCCI?

[Justcrazy]

PCB will learn nothing , when you have coaches like Misbah and Waqar for National Team , and the former players hyping them as legends , nothing can help.

 

[Saj]

Can you send a similar message to Wasim Khan?

I've mentioned it to him before also. And to be fair they have revamped the 'A' team and called them Shaheens with a view to more foreign tours not just in Asia.

 

[mon858]

also pak ends up in this silly predicament where fringe national selections tour with the main squad, and consequently miss out huge chunks of the first class season.

what did hussain talat and amad butt gain form touring new zealand?

proper A cricket is must, at least 6 to 8 first class games that do not conflict with the qae first class season.

ideally pak should have one home, and one away A series tour with 3 first class games per series a year minimum.

yes this is a very good point. granted covid has impacted some of this because by having to take larger squad you are left with enough players to more more A games on the side, etc. but in general the focus on A tours should be following:
1. at least 1 tour annually to SENA
2. schedule that tour either immediately before, months before or max year before main team tour to SENA but not "during" the main team tour. This ensures you can identify few key performers from that A team tour to be added to main team tour later. several years ago i believe umar akmal, fawad alam, sarfraz, hafeez, wahab had player in A team tour to australia perhaps a year before some main tours and they ended up benefitting.
3. ensure every foreign tour to Pakistan includes 1 A team match. if not time for 4 day, at least a 2 day match is better than nothing. e.g. RSA is practicing at karachi gymkhana since arrival. they came on private plane. we could have taken 13-14 guys, had them tested/isolated for few days and played a 2 day game at KG few days before first test even during the covid scheduling.
4. another potential option, offer free hosting/facilitiy for any foreign team having tours to Asian countries, so their main team can play a practice match or two against pakistan shaheens right before their tour to India, SriLanka, Bangladesh, etc. after covid this could be easier, and managed even with 1 week of time, but i see some of this happening for e.g. with england team before their tour to India (though it is for playing our main team).
5. A team foreign tour scheduling should be done before or after main domestic season. visiting tours can be managed by players taking week or two off from domestics.

 

[TeymurBlake]

Completely agree with you all. I think we need to prioritise domestic 4day cricket rather than PSL or other twenty20 league cricket. We need to allow more tours for Pakistan Shaheens. We've got a tour of West Indies coming up, would be wise to send some upcoming and in the periphery players to tour before hand and play some domestic cricket teams and West Indies A.

Bring in a qualified management setup that can work with Babar and Mohammad Wasim to put forward strategies and plans for long-term projects. Pick players that are deserving and fit the bill of all three (captain, coach and CS) and give them time and opportunities to perform. Work on the weaknesses of players and identify them early. Not like Asad Shafiq working on his downfalls now with Mohammad Yousuf.

Don't be afraid to bring in coaches from outside Pakistan such as Collusi and/or Palmer. Use there services and utilise a small group players and allow them to work with them. Put harsh reprimands on fitness and fielding. Under Steve Rixon Pakistan were consider formidable in the field which isn't something they were ever considered ever. Make sure the players perform all the drills on fielding so they know its as important as batting and bowling.

If your going to utilise Palmer or Collusi for batting coach classes don't be afraid to bring some qualified bowling coaches that can work on the Pakistan bowling and like batting, select a group of pacers and spinners that will feature for Pakistan in all or Test, ODI or T20I formats and work with them on them.

 

[Local.Dada]

PCB and Pakistan cricket in general from years of following them seem to always go for a quick fix

Aus has a great system so they go ahead and implement it. Was there any credible surveys,research,analysis done to support that theory?

I have seen ex cricketers and experts from Pakistan say IPL has changed Indian cricket which is true to a large extent and it does have the benefits of brining new talent and generating revenue etc but what they don’t realize is the biggest benefit of the IPL has been funds invested back into grass roots by the BCCI.

People point out to corruption in PCB but you must be really naive to think there is no corruption, political lobbying or power grabs in BCCI. Sometimes it’s beyond that. These people realize that if they steal 10 bucks today by riding the wave properly they will be in a position to make 100 bucks tomorrow. They are shrewd and far sighted and not looking for instant gratification.

People criticize selectors but the next selector doesn’t immediately overhaul the team. He builds gradually and phases players out carefully keeping more or less the same template of their predecessors.

Also the most important point which will make everything else redundant, PCB should look inwards to see how they can better what they have than looking at India or Australia. 3 different countries, different levels of education and financial clout and different set of people and outlook to sports. Even though India and Pakistan might be the same on the last point.

Pakistan has a great cricket legacy, so something is working right? Why can’t you stick to that and constantly improve what is wrong instead of re inventing the wheel every single time?

 

[Thunderbolt14]

I've mentioned it to him before also. And to be fair they have revamped the 'A' team and called them Shaheens with a view to more foreign tours not just in Asia.

Fair enough, but at the moment these Shaheens games are being wasted by the senior team to get practice like against NZ. I’m sure he’s already taken notice of this but there’s no point to the games if they fall under the same umbrella as the senior team.

 

[Babar_Azam_fan]

Long term
School cricket
Club cricket

Short term fixes
U-19 tours
A tours
No fast tracking
No LOI specialist on his own terms, unless he’s no future in tests (Like Hafeez, Malik, Imad, etc)

The biggest learning
4 D A Y C R I C K E T


If you want to get selected in the test squad, minimum 25 FC matches (minimum 5 in the current season)

If you want to get selected in the ODI squad, minimum 20 FC matches and 20 List A matches (minimum 5 FC matches and 5 List A matches in the current season)

If you want to get selected in the T20I squad, minimum 15 FC matches, 20 List A matches and 25 T20 matches (minimum 2 FC, 5 List A and T20 matches in the current season)


T20 Leagues - max two including PSL
PSL
(BBL/ H100/ CPL)

No NOC to third tier leagues like T10, SLPL, BPL, or during the domestic season)

Compensate well to the players tho

 

[ElRaja]

yes this is a very good point. granted covid has impacted some of this because by having to take larger squad you are left with enough players to more more A games on the side, etc. but in general the focus on A tours should be following:
1. at least 1 tour annually to SENA
2. schedule that tour either immediately before, months before or max year before main team tour to SENA but not "during" the main team tour. This ensures you can identify few key performers from that A team tour to be added to main team tour later. several years ago i believe umar akmal, fawad alam, sarfraz, hafeez, wahab had player in A team tour to australia perhaps a year before some main tours and they ended up benefitting.
3. ensure every foreign tour to Pakistan includes 1 A team match. if not time for 4 day, at least a 2 day match is better than nothing. e.g. RSA is practicing at karachi gymkhana since arrival. they came on private plane. we could have taken 13-14 guys, had them tested/isolated for few days and played a 2 day game at KG few days before first test even during the covid scheduling.
4. another potential option, offer free hosting/facilitiy for any foreign team having tours to Asian countries, so their main team can play a practice match or two against pakistan shaheens right before their tour to India, SriLanka, Bangladesh, etc. after covid this could be easier, and managed even with 1 week of time, but i see some of this happening for e.g. with england team before their tour to India (though it is for playing our main team).
5. A team foreign tour scheduling should be done before or after main domestic season. visiting tours can be managed by players taking week or two off from domestics.

agree with most points, but pak need to just get the ball rolling, i dont care what team they are playing, even first class games against sri lanka and bangladesh reserves would serve some purpose because young cricketers lack long form disciplines.

I have seen ex cricketers and experts from Pakistan say IPL has changed Indian cricket which is true to a large extent and it does have the benefits of brining new talent and generating revenue etc but what they don’t realize is the biggest benefit of the IPL has been funds invested back into grass roots by the BCCI.

biggest diff imo is that indian cricketers have ipl and they are financially sorted, they do not want to do anything to fall out of favour with the bcci since they wont have it better outside the system. a lot of young pakistani crickters are financially insecure and want to maximise there earings, which mean despite what they may say short termism to attract t20 franchises to hire them is far more important than indian crickters.

Also the most important point which will make everything else redundant, PCB should look inwards to see how they can better what they have than looking at India or Australia. 3 different countries, different levels of education and financial clout and different set of people and outlook to sports. Even though India and Pakistan might be the same on the last point.

Pakistan has a great cricket legacy, so something is working right? Why can’t you stick to that and constantly improve what is wrong instead of re inventing the wheel every single time?

ive said this before, pakistans legacy was built on semi-pro structure, at a semi pro level the local cricket scene was good enough to produce teams which could compete with the best teams. guys like imran khan were ahead of the term in drilling in mental and physical fitness into very rough players, but u cant keep hoping for a messiah captain, it wont happen again.

ind, aus, nz and eng are competing on a pro level, pak needs lots of intelligently directed investment over 4 to 5 years if it is to compete with these four teams.

 

[Saj]

Fair enough, but at the moment these Shaheens games are being wasted by the senior team to get practice like against NZ. I’m sure he’s already taken notice of this but there’s no point to the games if they fall under the same umbrella as the senior team.

Yes the issue was Covid-19 and the fact that both squads had to be out there together. Also agree with some of the questionable selections on that tour.

For me, Shaheens should be made up of up and coming players who are earmarked for the future to play for Pakistan.

 

[wasim-fan]

It has been a process. These players have not got ready overnight. To identify talent and sculpt them requires structure. IPL is a bonanza festival that takes care of some of the funding. It is no substitute for structure.

 

[Saj]

It has been a process. These players have not got ready overnight. To identify talent and sculpt them requires structure. IPL is a bonanza festival that takes care of some of the funding. It is no substitute for structure.

Very well put.

And this is the concern, that many in Pakistan cricket feel that the PSL is the priority and the source of proper cricketing talent.

 

[azimiqbal]

One thing everyone is not mentioning is Indian cricketers who do not play IPL are handsomely compensated, in Pakistan unless you play PSL your not living comfortably.

PCB more then enough money to pay each domestic cricketer $10,000 a year.

Times have changed yes there is pride playing for your country but if you can earn more playing t-20 why would you bother?

We have to focus on 4 day cricket , it’s gives the tools and experience needed to succeed in any form of the game.

I admire India for what they have been able to achieve but as a Pakistan fan it really hurts seeing how far we have fallen

 

[CanadianG00se]

1) Selectors should stop selecting players based on PSL or Media Hype.
2) Let youngsters earn valuable experience in domestic circuit before drafting them for Intl XI
3) Get rid off Misbah and Waqar and recruit coaches that have experience working with domestic/international teams with proper coaching accredition. Let coach and captain have freedom to build team for 2023 WC. Fans and Media must be patience even if they lose series or two. It takes time to build a team.
4) PCB should enforce domestic first priority for national selection. Those who ditch domestic games for some random T20 leagues shouldn’t just be allowed back to national side. Reward those who are willing to grind themselves in domestic circuit.
5) Lastly, PCB should create two tier domestic tournament where bottom two teams from tier 1 gets relegated while top two from tier 2 gets promoted every season.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I think its a bit harsh on PCB to be compared in a way with BCCI, there is nothing imo PCB can learn from BCCI imo.

BCCI has endless supply of money and resources, PCB doesn't. I appreciate India winning and all but part of me is very sad to see the state of Pakistani cricket, India is partly responsible for the current situation of Pakistani cricket, such as; not playing against each other, not allowing Pakistani players to participate in IPL (even though it is a political reason and not BCCI related).

I do not know how Pakistan can get out of this, however one possible way, is to protect players like Babar Azam and make sure they are handled carefully and not ruined, as a collection of players like Babar can make Pakistan respectable again, which may lead to a small light at the end of the tunnel..

 

[shamaan]

1) Selectors should stop selecting players based on PSL or Media Hype.
2) Let youngsters earn valuable experience in domestic circuit before drafting them for Intl XI
3) Get rid off Misbah and Waqar and recruit coaches that have experience working with domestic/international teams with proper coaching accredition. Let coach and captain have freedom to build team for 2023 WC. Fans and Media must be patience even if they lose series or two. It takes time to build a team.
4) PCB should enforce domestic first priority for national selection. Those who ditch domestic games for some random T20 leagues shouldn’t just be allowed back to national side. Reward those who are willing to grind themselves in domestic circuit.
5) Lastly, PCB should create two tier domestic tournament where bottom two teams from tier 1 gets relegated while top two from tier 2 gets promoted every season.

Number 4 wasim has prioritised that to some extend

 

[Shafi]

Don't think Pakistan has skilled and selfless people in PCB. There are many leeches and corrupt people who promotes players of their liking.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

I think its a bit harsh on PCB to be compared in a way with BCCI, there is nothing imo PCB can learn from BCCI imo.

BCCI has endless supply of money and resources, PCB doesn't.

You don't need an endless supply of money and resources to ensure that there's a better organisational structure and system for talent to come through. The fact that PCB is so inept that they are unable to do it is their own fault.

India has had this school/club cricket structure even when we were a trash team. The difference in the post-IPL era is better facilities at state level (though it's still bad at grassroots level), better pay and more talent from smaller regions getting noticed than before because of IPL scouting.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

You don't need an endless supply of money and resources to ensure that there's a better organisational structure and system for talent to come through. The fact that PCB is so inept that they are unable to do it is their own fault.

India has had this school/club cricket structure even when we were a trash team. The difference in the post-IPL era is better facilities at state level (though it's still bad at grassroots level), better pay and more talent from smaller regions getting noticed than before because of IPL scouting.

PCB in fact really makes decent money as per their market size. They can really invest that money back in the system and still make profit. It is the single most followed game in Pakistan.
Just that it is ineptness, and intellectually dishonest.
Also, Misbah has brought a defeatist mindset now. I mean to blame bad performances on COVID, just shows he is mentally shot. I am most disappointed in him.
Was a decent man, turned out to be opportunist and yes man to make money.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

Also, Misbah has brought a defeatist mindset now. I mean to blame bad performances on COVID, just shows he is mentally shot. I am most disappointed in him.
Was a decent man, turned out to be opportunist and yes man to make money.

They should have a foreign coach. Pakistani coaches lack professionalism. You need to build a system where professionalism can be expected from them before letting them take on coach for the national team, which is why you should insist on having the coach certification system. Local clubs and state/province teams should all have certified coaches. And only those certified coaches with a track record of coaching state/province teams should be allowed to coach the national team. ECB and Cricket Australia have their own level-wise coaching courses. Even in India, former India players are taking coaching courses to make themselves more eligible for coaching state and IPL teams and maybe eventually India.

 

[Markhor]

India's Brisbane win has triggered another round of national navel-gazing. Yes I agree we need to improve our pitches, invest in grassroots coaching, set up more regional academies and ensure more SENA tours for the Shaheens team. That prescription has been issued many, many times since 1999. But frankly, for the sake of our sanity, we must STOP comparing ourselves to India.

India are on another stratosphere in every aspect be it talent pool, grassroots coaching, analytics, fitness and their commercial strength will ensure it remains in the top tier.

Pakistan should compare itself to the likes of South Africa, Sri Lanka, West Indies and Bangladesh. Instead of harbouring fantasies about being a top 3 side, focus on being the best of the rest.

 

[Yk313]

India's Brisbane win has triggered another round of national navel-gazing. Yes I agree we need to improve our pitches, invest in grassroots coaching, set up more regional academies and ensure more SENA tours for the Shaheens team. That prescription has been issued many, many times since 1999. But frankly, for the sake of our sanity, we must STOP comparing ourselves to India.

India are on another stratosphere in every aspect be it talent pool, grassroots coaching, analytics, fitness and their commercial strength will ensure it remains in the top tier.

Pakistan should compare itself to the likes of South Africa, Sri Lanka, West Indies and Bangladesh. Instead of harbouring fantasies about being a top 3 side, focus on being the best of the rest.

Actually even that is pretty useless.

Comparisons, of any kind, are best when the absolute changes instead of just relative ones have been ironed out. Large masses of cricketers in PAK are devoid of fundamentals of the sport.

 

[Buffet]

India's Brisbane win has triggered another round of national navel-gazing. Yes I agree we need to improve our pitches, invest in grassroots coaching, set up more regional academies and ensure more SENA tours for the Shaheens team. That prescription has been issued many, many times since 1999. But frankly, for the sake of our sanity, we must STOP comparing ourselves to India.

India are on another stratosphere in every aspect be it talent pool, grassroots coaching, analytics, fitness and their commercial strength will ensure it remains in the top tier.

Pakistan should compare itself to the likes of South Africa, Sri Lanka, West Indies and Bangladesh. Instead of harbouring fantasies about being a top 3 side, focus on being the best of the rest.

I think it's best to focus on small incremental changes to make it better rather than comparisons. Just keep getting better constantly and results will come. It will come even against the top teams.

NZ's tour final results may be disappointing, but the team played much better cricket in one test by fighting till the end. Even if the result doesn't go your way, it's fine. Just try to play the same way all the time. In the same series, the other game was pretty poor. I am not saying that it will fix a bigger structural issue present in Pakistani cricket, but at least make the best use of whatever team is playing.

 

[Savak]

I think it's possible to be realistic about ones team, prospects, aiming for incremental patience driven progress while also looking to emulate, learn from superior teams and the progress they have made

 

[Colorblind Genius]

India's Brisbane win has triggered another round of national navel-gazing. Yes I agree we need to improve our pitches, invest in grassroots coaching, set up more regional academies and ensure more SENA tours for the Shaheens team. That prescription has been issued many, many times since 1999. But frankly, for the sake of our sanity, we must STOP comparing ourselves to India.

India are on another stratosphere in every aspect be it talent pool, grassroots coaching, analytics, fitness and their commercial strength will ensure it remains in the top tier.

Pakistan should compare itself to the likes of South Africa, Sri Lanka, West Indies and Bangladesh. Instead of harbouring fantasies about being a top 3 side, focus on being the best of the rest.

If you are responding to my post, then no, personally I had no intention to "compare" the two.
Apologies if that panned out that way to you.

My point is, we can perhaps learn a thing or two from those who are either better than us and/or our rivals.

What Pujara's background tells us here, is not rocket science and does not require anyone to break a bank to be able to implement it or an ocean to boil to see the effects.

The "know how" of cricket basics is the main point before we even begin the practical work.

Our batting culture in Pakistan needs to be put in the right direction where we know exactly what works on the very, very basic level before we start the journey.

 

[Markhor]

If you are responding to my post, then no, personally I had no intention to "compare" the two.
Apologies if that panned out that way to you.

No it wasn't, I haven't seen it.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

True. Shubman Gill, Mohammed Siraj were picked after their consistent performances for India 'A'. They both had already been doing well in first class cricket.

I believe half the FC matches that Mohammad Siraj had played prior to his debut were for India A. This shows that his talent was recognized quite early on but instead of putting him into the national team straight-away (which is often the case for young Pakistani players), he was instead drafted into the India A team.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

You don't need an endless supply of money and resources to ensure that there's a better organisational structure and system for talent to come through. The fact that PCB is so inept that they are unable to do it is their own fault.

India has had this school/club cricket structure even when we were a trash team. The difference in the post-IPL era is better facilities at state level (though it's still bad at grassroots level), better pay and more talent from smaller regions getting noticed than before because of IPL scouting.

When were you a trash team? This school cricket system produced Tendulkar, Sehwag, Dravid, Dhoni, and Kohli long before the IPL era.

Trust me, India is flourishing right now because of the grassroots system. The IPL money is just elevating that one level higher.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

also pak ends up in this silly predicament where fringe national selections tour with the main squad, and consequently miss out huge chunks of the first class season.

what did hussain talat and amad butt gain form touring new zealand?

proper A cricket is must, at least 6 to 8 first class games that do not conflict with the qae first class season.

ideally pak should have one home, and one away A series tour with 3 first class games per series a year minimum.

Actually they both played for the Shaheens, which is good. But I would like to see more A team FC matches. This time around the Shaheens had only 1 FC match but a number of T20s against New Zealand A and domestic teams. Would be better if it was the other way around because PSL takes care of the T20 aspect.

 

[Saj]

Pakistan should compare itself to the likes of South Africa, Sri Lanka, West Indies and Bangladesh. Instead of harbouring fantasies about being a top 3 side, focus on being the best of the rest.

Accurate, but painful too.

Especially for those of us who have over the years seen Pakistan produce so many world-class players and watched so many great Pakistani teams.

Pakistan cricket's hierarchy took their eye off the ball and this why we are languishing in the 2nd to 3rd tier of international cricket.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Good point also.

'A' cricket was literally forgotten by the PCB before in more recent times it's been re-launched.

I remember asking a former PCB Chairman why they weren't organising more 'A' tours to places like England, Australia, South Africa and NZ - his reply "it costs too much".

This kind of attitude is what has gotten our cricket to this point.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

I believe half the FC matches that Mohammad Siraj had played prior to his debut were for India A. This shows that his talent was recognized quite early on but instead of putting him into the national team straight-away (which is often the case for young Pakistani players), he was instead drafted into the India A team.

yes absolutely correct. There are multiple systems and routes through which players come,
Some come through School cricket e.g. Prithvi Shaw.
Some come through private academies e.g. Shubman Gill, Navdeep Saini, Kuldeep Yadav
Some come through only the will of their parents upto a stage e.g. Cheteshwar Pujara.
Some come through local scouting e.g. Siraj, he first played with hard ball at 21 years of age, before that he was playing local tennis ball tournaments. So literally picked out of street as they say in Pakistan.

But, ultimately all these funnel to first Ranji, and then A team and then International.

More 'A' tours have started happening now to abroad because of more money and resources with BCCI.
But even Tendulkar, Ganguly played lots of cricket as U-15 boys in England with English School teams.

So this process has been there since ages. It is just patience with system, and off course IPL rounding off having lot of resources for the likes Natarajan, Siraj who come from dirt poor backgrounds to have pay checks of crores, which changes their lives and they focus solely on cricket.

So Middle class parents now have started to see their kids as potential cricketers because of good money available.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Indian cricket continues to thrive and improve.

Their First-class system is robust and is producing world-class cricketers.

At junior levels players are being developed and nurtured properly.

Indian cricket is in a good place, what can the PCB and Pakistani cricket learn from the BCCI and Indian cricket?

During the 4th test between India n Australia, a commentator stated that last year India played 52 List A international matches which is highest than any other country.

I think, together with a very well organized school cricket, PCB should arrange as many List A international games as it can.

These two things won’t be bad start towards improvement.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

When were you a trash team?

Nineties.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Nineties.

What I meant to say was, even at that time your school cricket system was producing ATG batsmen like Gavaskar, Azharruddin, Sachin.

People like Dravid, Ganguly, Sehwag who later came through also grew up in the 80s. So it’s a myth that IPL has had any real impact on India’s batting resources.

 

[globalcitizen]

I think answer lies in how the indian debutants played in biggest match of series. They displayed such calm composure, maturity and experience of atleast 20 tests.
The talent is one part but it needs to be moulded in such a way that it reaches full potential.
The national cricket academy , india A tours and not choosing IPL as a basis for selection to different format are the key.

Coming to Pakistan it has resources and money to clone this template and be successful, but it takes years to plan and recreate this structure. Can be done though with a vision.

 

[dildilpak]

Going back to early years of the century, Pak and Ind seemed to be at similar levels. Any slight difference you could write it off to India having a generational talent in Sachin that no one can plan for. Back then I don’t think there was as much disparity in the financial strength of the two boards either (or maybe I am wrong about this). How did such a wide gulf open up in just two decades? Frankly for the longest time I saw the performance difference between the two sides as just cycles that would mean revert. But very clear that is not the case. Is it as simple as India starting to invest more in grassroots in late 90s and reaping the compounding benefit over the years? Feel like there has to be more to it.

 

[Savak]

Going back to early years of the century, Pak and Ind seemed to be at similar levels. Any slight difference you could write it off to India having a generational talent in Sachin that no one can plan for. Back then I don’t think there was as much disparity in the financial strength of the two boards either (or maybe I am wrong about this). How did such a wide gulf open up in just two decades? Frankly for the longest time I saw the performance difference between the two sides as just cycles that would mean revert. But very clear that is not the case. Is it as simple as India starting to invest more in grassroots in late 90s and reaping the compounding benefit over the years? Feel like there has to be more to it.

The PCB suffered financially when Dr Nasim Ashraf took charge in 2006 and then its fate was sealed after the 2009 Sri Lankan attacks. The PCB also suffered as a result of the 2008 Mumbai attacks following which India made a conscious decision to have no more cricketing ties with Pakistan

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Going back to early years of the century, Pak and Ind seemed to be at similar levels. Any slight difference you could write it off to India having a generational talent in Sachin that no one can plan for. Back then I don’t think there was as much disparity in the financial strength of the two boards either (or maybe I am wrong about this). How did such a wide gulf open up in just two decades? Frankly for the longest time I saw the performance difference between the two sides as just cycles that would mean revert. But very clear that is not the case. Is it as simple as India starting to invest more in grassroots in late 90s and reaping the compounding benefit over the years? Feel like there has to be more to it.

Money got into the right hands and was planned and used wisely in India. While in Pak what happened was, is summed up very nicely by [MENTION=2501]Savak[/MENTION] in this thread here.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-for-the-stagnation-of-Pakistan-Cricket-today


Simple as that!

 

[dildilpak]

Thanks. Very good post [MENTION=2501]Savak[/MENTION]

 

[Sir Alex]

For a long time Indian cricket was fixated with Pakistan and vice versa. The players could be tripe but if they performed against India or Pakistan , they automatically got an extension. Even fans too were quick to forget failures against other teams as long as they had a win or two to savour against the old enemy.

India moved on from this aspect in the 2000s. After the win in 2001 and successful defence of Border Gavaskar trophy in Australia in 2003-04, Australia became priority nation for India - resulting in more tours between them in thr next decades. And dramatic moments for fans occurred with the Monkey Gate episode in 2008, and firmly replaced Aus as opponent number 1. Also given political reasons, and combined with Pakistan's general drop in performances, Pakistan started slipping down the priority list of India.

The series wins in Eng in 2007 and in NZ in 2009, followed by a hard fought draw in SA in 2011 made fans demand for more and more. IPL had started bringing in lots of cash for BCCI and players were becoming lesser intimidated by foreign players. Add to this the WC 2011 and T20 WC win in 2007 made India believe they can beat any opposition. BCCI management as a result of IPL get exposed to best player management and development techniques and started implementing those. More money got pumped into grassroots. Also people realised that cricket could be a viable profession even if they didn't get to national team. Even playing domestic cricket now could earn decent money. Not to mention the odd IPL contract.

Then came the duo of Shastri and Kohli who practically reinvented the way India approached cricket. The priority became hard, aggressive cricket - to win and not to just play out drab defensive cricket. Test cricket became attractive once again and BCCI went all out to find players who would do justice to this ideology. And more importantly BCCI learnt how IPL could actually augment their test players and make them more rounded, adaptive and resilient and not just single minded, rigid players.

Meanwhile I think Pakistan cricket stagnated. There were a few things out if their control like the 2009 attacks. But I always got the feeling they never really moved forward from their India fixation. Mediocrity still continued to be tolerated, as long as they could grab a win vs India. The best example for this was the 2017 champions trophy win. Suddenly a mediocre cricketer like Fakhar Zaman was considered as best opening batsman in the world, and Sarfaraz Ahmed was being compared to great Imran Khan and the like. The need to perform well consistently in tours, especially tests, were not a priority. India of course continued to win in world cups and other matches vs Pakistan but those were not considered as any guarantee for their players for a long run in the Indian team.

The earlier Pakistani establishment and fans move away from this India fixation, the better.

 

[MenInG]

KARACHI: Pakistan batting great Zaheer Abbas believes India is reaping rich rewards for the investment it made in its cricketing structure in the last decade, a testament of which is its recent historic triumph in Australia.

"Look at how the Indian team has come up. Today they are winning a series in Australia not once but twice in three years," Abbas said.

Team India's win over Australia highly inspirational for youth: PM Narendra Modi

"That has happened because India has invested and planned on their cricket structure a lot in the last decade and today they are reaping the benefits of that hardwork," he added.

The former captain lamented the decline of Pakistan cricket and said hardwork was the only solution to success.

"In cricket I have always believed that it is how much hardwork and time an individual player is willing to put into his game that matters the most.

Yes we defeated Australia in Australia; really proud that I took a five-for, it's a tribute to my father: Mohammed Siraj

"No amount of coaching or advice can make you a top player unless you work hard on your game yourself," Abbas was quoted as saying in a show on Geo TV.

Abbas, fondly called 'Asian Bradman' for his high-scoring feats, also noted that India's triumph in Australia was all the more praiseworthy because it came in the absence of their regular captain Virat Kohli and many senior players, who were sidelined with injuries.

Stating that there was no substitute for hardwork, Abbas called on Pakistani cricketers to work more on their individual games.

"In our times we didn't have specialised coaches, just mentors. We were expected to work hard and devote time to our training and nets if we wanted to become big players," he said.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...aheer-abbas/articleshow/80407541.cms?from=mdr

 

[Savak]

I would take Zaheer Abbas a lot more seriously if he had something to show for himself in the numerous tenures he was worked in the PCB

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

How can PCB end BCCI's dominance

We hear a lot of complaints about BCCI's bullying and dominance.

What can PCB do to end it ?
How Will PCB be different than BCCI in terms of managing the global cricket ?

 

[Colorblind Genius]

PCB does not want to do anything out of the ordinary, and neither does it have any nefarious and ill wishes towards BCCI.

Our govt is also not heinous and full of malice towards cricket in India.

Both boards should simply honor the yearly calendar and move on with their lives.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

PCB does not want to do anything out of the ordinary, and neither does it have any nefarious and ill wishes towards BCCI.

Our govt is also not heinous and full of malice towards cricket in India.

Both boards should simply honor the yearly calendar and move on with their lives.

That is a completely untrue statement. We can discuss it on time pass in detail but I think there is a lot of malice in Pakistan towards India as well.

 

[cricketjoshila]

PCB does not want to do anything out of the ordinary, and neither does it have any nefarious and ill wishes towards BCCI.

Our govt is also not heinous and full of malice towards cricket in India.

Both boards should simply honor the yearly calendar and move on with their lives.

PCB under Mani has been trying all sorts of things at the ICC. Its just that other important boards dont want to side with PCB on this.

Ehsan Mani has always had it against India and BCCI.

Your govt funds and runs a secessionist terrorist movement in India.

Yes both boards should move on. But a clash is inevitable in near future. It may see a split in the ICC.

 

[Savak]

Don't want the PCB to end BCCI's dominance, would rather the PCB become part of the Big 4.

 

[Bigboii]

That's not possible

Better solution we should just get out of cricket focus on gully danda...

Best solution let The Big 3 play among themselves cause I mean other teams have no say in decision-making process
might as well leave it all together or just start playing domestic franchise t20, ODI leagues year long

 

[Thunderbolt14]

That is a completely untrue statement. We can discuss it on time pass in detail but I think there is a lot of malice in Pakistan towards India as well.

You’d be surprised. You’ve been sold lies by your government and the BCCI about Pakistani intentions. We have nothing but love and a desire for peace.

 

[Bigboii]

That is a completely untrue statement. We can discuss it on time pass in detail but I think there is a lot of malice in Pakistan towards India as well.

open a new thread there
I think its more of a defense mechanism than a genuine hate

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

open a new thread there
I think its more of a defense mechanism than a genuine hate

sure bro will do when i get some time.There is a lot of differences between two countries and the problem is, Sitting together can solve but It will not happen due to multiple forces vested in their interests, In both countries.
I, personally, don't want anything in terms of cricket till the time political solution is found.That may be wrong, but that is what i feel.

 

[naseem]

It's not PCBs job .....it's ICC's job

 

[Colorblind Genius]

That is a completely untrue statement. We can discuss it on time pass in detail but I think there is a lot of malice in Pakistan towards India as well.

PCB under Mani has been trying all sorts of things at the ICC. Its just that other important boards dont want to side with PCB on this.

Ehsan Mani has always had it against India and BCCI.

Your govt funds and runs a secessionist terrorist movement in India.

Yes both boards should move on. But a clash is inevitable in near future. It may see a split in the ICC.

Then both of you guys should talk to each other and move on.

You were surely thinking too much into it when created the OP.

Don’t need to sweat your blood and worry about Pakistan trying to end BCCI dominance.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

Get its country's economy straight so that the PCB make a ton of money from their domestic broadcasters and sponsors.

 

[RyanRyan10]

That is a completely untrue statement. We can discuss it on time pass in detail but I think there is a lot of malice in Pakistan towards India as well.

You are right.

We have seen so many Pakistanis downplaying our achievements in the recent times.

Their ex cricketers were crying on their YouTube channels and TV shows seeing our players dominating ICC awards and playing XIs. It was very disappointing to see cricketers behave like that.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Who cares? Pakistan cricket should focus on itself.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

On topic, I think it is a poor objective when the intention is to undermine another board as opposed to setting strong goals for yourself.

The economic incentive is too high for boards to side with PCB on whatever principle PCB is espousing.

PCB should aim to be internally strong - strong domestic structure, great relationships with all boards, a strong team, financial prudence, help out smaller nations and avoid trying to create factions in the ICC.

Boards like CSA, NZCB etc will turn on a dime when ICC offers them a tour from India or some other financial incentive.

The stronger PCB is internally, the better it will be to look after its own interests.

 

[Pakpak]

Get another billion people. That's how BCCI runs the show, their market is simply absolutely massive and a dream for any sponsor looking to market themselves to a billion and more people.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

We hear a lot of complaints about BCCI's bullying and dominance.

What can PCB do to end it ?
How Will PCB be different than BCCI in terms of managing the global cricket ?

Initiate a rapid anti-contraception program and provide subsidies for each family to have at least 6 kids. Mothers with 10 or more kids to be awarded with Hilal e Imtiaz.

Results will come in 20 years.

 

[the Great Khan]

PCB under Mani has been trying all sorts of things at the ICC. Its just that other important boards dont want to side with PCB on this.

Ehsan Mani has always had it against India and BCCI.

Your govt funds and runs a secessionist terrorist movement in India.

Yes both boards should move on. But a clash is inevitable in near future. It may see a split in the ICC.

with regards to secessionist movement that's not true. on the contrary there is cast iron evidence that your govt has actively tried to destroy pakistan cricket. There is zero doubt.

But coming onto what my Indian friends have said [MENTION=152959]hoshiarpurexpress[/MENTION] , I can guarantee you one thing and this is a cast iron guarantee, if Virat Kohli comes to Pakistan he will be a hero. End of.

Also if any of you go to Pakistan to visit you will be treated like family. Pakistanis dont really hate anybody unless you speak ill of the prophet PBUH or Islam. You can be the most secular Pakistani but if you see somebody bad mouthing the Prophet PBUH your blood will boil.

There is a disconnect which needs to be overcome. India needs to stop seeing Pakistan as a problem that it needs to solve by splitting it up or putting a boot on its neck. And Pakistan needs to sit down and understand India's reservations and issues.

Yes me and [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] and @romali_roti have had very passioned debates but they come from a good place and we understand each others concerns. If we can talk and chill why cant others?

hat should we learn from the BCCI? simple, organisation is key. And loving your country. Unfortunately if you love Pakistan in Pakistan you are seen as a nut job mullah or extremist. You are lauded if you bad mouth the nation or be "contrary". Indians try not to do this to much. They will criticise amongst themselves but will then look to fix the issue. Yes it may take a while but they eventually do something.

We moan complain, then say "mujay nahin putta bhai" "us say pucho" or "yaar bus aisey hi chalta hay"

 

[Thunderbolt14]

hat should we learn from the BCCI? simple, organisation is key. And loving your country. Unfortunately if you love Pakistan in Pakistan you are seen as a nut job mullah or extremist. You are lauded if you bad mouth the nation or be "contrary". Indians try not to do this to much. They will criticise amongst themselves but will then look to fix the issue. Yes it may take a while but they eventually do something.

We moan complain, then say "mujay nahin putta bhai" "us say pucho" or "yaar bus aisey hi chalta hay"

Sad truth. There is no such thing as constructive criticism these days, a very sad state of affairs. Too much criticism is rooted in insecurity, jealousy, and a desire to bring other people down to feel smarter or better about yourself. A very toxic attitude festering these days and people are not smart enough to cut it off at its root rather than feeding the people who champion this negativity.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

with regards to secessionist movement that's not true. on the contrary there is cast iron evidence that your govt has actively tried to destroy pakistan cricket. There is zero doubt.

But coming onto what my Indian friends have said [MENTION=152959]hoshiarpurexpress[/MENTION] , I can guarantee you one thing and this is a cast iron guarantee, if Virat Kohli comes to Pakistan he will be a hero. End of.

Also if any of you go to Pakistan to visit you will be treated like family. Pakistanis dont really hate anybody unless you speak ill of the prophet PBUH or Islam. You can be the most secular Pakistani but if you see somebody bad mouthing the Prophet PBUH your blood will boil.

There is a disconnect which needs to be overcome. India needs to stop seeing Pakistan as a problem that it needs to solve by splitting it up or putting a boot on its neck. And Pakistan needs to sit down and understand India's reservations and issues.

Yes me and [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] and @romali_roti have had very passioned debates but they come from a good place and we understand each others concerns. If we can talk and chill why cant others?

hat should we learn from the BCCI? simple, organisation is key. And loving your country. Unfortunately if you love Pakistan in Pakistan you are seen as a nut job mullah or extremist. You are lauded if you bad mouth the nation or be "contrary". Indians try not to do this to much. They will criticise amongst themselves but will then look to fix the issue. Yes it may take a while but they eventually do something.

We moan complain, then say "mujay nahin putta bhai" "us say pucho" or "yaar bus aisey hi chalta hay"

I have been to Pakistan during 2004-05 series.. I have culturally more in common with that part of the world as compare to anywhere I have been internationally. Same language, same food, look up hoshiarpur it is a town just 120 KM from Border.
My grandfather worked in Lahore, Knew Urdu very well and tried to teach us and we used to get Urdu newspaper at my home, which we would read together.
The thing is, there are lot of issue and reservations both sides have, both of us. I can understand the defense mechanism from Pakistan after Bangladesh creation.. that is a painful memory. But there is lot of reservations from our sides as well.. especially post Mumbai 2008. That event and the response from Congress Govt of India and Politicians from Pakistan irked me to no end.
Till the time these are not resolved politically...I don't see anything positive happening.
Well it is becoming more of a discussion for Time Pass section so I will leave it at that.
I appreciate good cricket, and create threads when Pakistan do well.. and take jibes as well sometimes due to our arch rivalry.
In our Hearts.. we want things to be better.. But both side politicians need to shed some egos and do something about it.

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

You’d be surprised. You’ve been sold lies by your government and the BCCI about Pakistani intentions. We have nothing but love and a desire for peace.

Sorry brother I don't agree on this. I am a 80s born kid.. the Current Govt starting becoming popular in since 2008-09. I have travelled to Pakistan as well in good times of 2004-05.

Off course at people to people level there is no malice, I know that. I have lot of Pakistani friends all over the world.
But, there is intention of malice politically.. and from both sides in India and Pakistan... but there is malice.
I don't need to be sold by any Government to see that..

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

No one has answered one part of my question..
If PCB becomes the all powerful board dictating decision making in ICC, What different they will do as compare to BCCI ?

 

[gani999]

Money is important but is not everything. I think one must not forget that Pakistan was one of the best sides in the history of the game between the mid-1980s and the end of the 1990s. The PCB will do well to see what they had got right then. In my view, a major reason for Pakistan's success back then was the active participation of the players in the English county setup. And again, not everyone gets selected in English counties, so Pakistan may have had a good local setup back then too.
I think it is also important to enforce discipline with a firm hand put the fear of God into the youngsters. Too many Pakistani players show promise in the beginning, only to fizzle out after a game or two. They need to be made accountable and taught the value of commitment. Offering a spot fixer like Mohd. Amir a second chance after a five year ban may sound very alturistic and large hearted, but destroys discipline in the long run. Contrast that with the BCCI, where fixers and cheats can kiss a sweet goodbye to their careers and reputations forever. The likes of Sreesanth, Azharuddin and Ajay Jadeja will never, ever wear the Indian jersey again.

 

[the Great Khan]

I have been to Pakistan during 2004-05 series.. I have culturally more in common with that part of the world as compare to anywhere I have been internationally. Same language, same food, look up hoshiarpur it is a town just 120 KM from Border.
My grandfather worked in Lahore, Knew Urdu very well and tried to teach us and we used to get Urdu newspaper at my home, which we would read together.
The thing is, there are lot of issue and reservations both sides have, both of us. I can understand the defense mechanism from Pakistan after Bangladesh creation.. that is a painful memory. But there is lot of reservations from our sides as well.. especially post Mumbai 2008. That event and the response from Congress Govt of India and Politicians from Pakistan irked me to no end.
Till the time these are not resolved politically...I don't see anything positive happening.
Well it is becoming more of a discussion for Time Pass section so I will leave it at that.
I appreciate good cricket, and create threads when Pakistan do well.. and take jibes as well sometimes due to our arch rivalry.
In our Hearts.. we want things to be better.. But both side politicians need to shed some egos and do something about it.

Yes you make a good point about Mumbai. I guess that is a separate discussion for Time Pass as that is a very murky episode. And the response to it is also very murky.

Aside from the above the reservations are genuine but they are a legacy of partition. We have not really spoken about partition. Our elders preferred to sweep it under the carpet. Until both sides come to terms with this elephant in the room the overall issues wont be resolved. As for the politicians well thats just politics. One thing I can say for sure is if our interests align politicians will make the efforts. So the key is to make our interests align. Once we can do that everything else can be resolved and our hate and rivalry with be left for the sports field.

Finally and we who have lived in Pakistans dark times say this with confidence, do not let fascism become a norm in India. The hatred we are seeing is alarming and we know where it can go. This is now the duty of Indians to prevent otherwise nobody will be able to stop what is coming.

 

[the Great Khan]

Money is important but is not everything. I think one must not forget that Pakistan was one of the best sides in the history of the game between the mid-1980s and the end of the 1990s. The PCB will do well to see what they had got right then. In my view, a major reason for Pakistan's success back then was the active participation of the players in the English county setup. And again, not everyone gets selected in English counties, so Pakistan may have had a good local setup back then too.
I think it is also important to enforce discipline with a firm hand put the fear of God into the youngsters. Too many Pakistani players show promise in the beginning, only to fizzle out after a game or two. They need to be made accountable and taught the value of commitment. Offering a spot fixer like Mohd. Amir a second chance after a five year ban may sound very alturistic and large hearted, but destroys discipline in the long run. Contrast that with the BCCI, where fixers and cheats can kiss a sweet goodbye to their careers and reputations forever. The likes of Sreesanth, Azharuddin and Ajay Jadeja will never, ever wear the Indian jersey again.

Match fixing and corruption destroyed our team and systems. once our lovely politicians started meddling at every level it was like termites. Our school cricket system, club cricket system has been destroyed. The reason we produced those top teams was the grassroot system was functioning. Corruption has destroyed it. Its a miracle we even get so many players coming through at all.

Once the lower system starts to work (this year and next will be its restart) you will see improvements in a five year period.

 

[Thomaskutty]

PCB should be taking their cues from ECB and CA, they are the best run cricket boards who have a healthy relationship with the media and fans.

India's cricket wealth and structure is down to its huge population and a couple of mavericks like Jagmohan Dalmiya and Lalit Modi. The rest of the bunch are mostly opportunistic politicians and self-serving figures like Sreenivasan, Dada etc..

 

[Line and Length]

No one has answered one part of my question..
If PCB becomes the all powerful board dictating decision making in ICC, What different they will do as compare to BCCI ?

Even if, hypothetically, PCB would be as discriminatory and as big of a bully as BCCI if they had as much control, it doesn’t make anything right. We don’t need to invent hypothetical situations to excuse BCCI’s nefariousness.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

No one has answered one part of my question..
If PCB becomes the all powerful board dictating decision making in ICC, What different they will do as compare to BCCI ?

As I said, you are thinking too much into it and the premise in the OP reeks arrogance.

Think about it, Why should PCB end the dominance of BCCI?

Just because you want it to happen?