What do India's successes in Australia but failures in South Africa tell us?

[Saurav]

This test series loss is a blessing in disguise for India. It tells us that you cannot win long enough by keeping the players that have been extremely ordinary for a long period now. The positives of this series :-

1. Rahul and Pant test hundreds, only two Indian batsman to score centuries and proving that they are indeed amazing batsman. Last time around, Pandya had a 95 in Capetown too

2. Kohli willing to spend enough time on crease, leave balls for hours and hours. His comeback to form was important for India. His next test will be 100th test too.

3. Pujara and Rahane will finally be dropped for once and all. There is no way selectors should pick them. We have 3-4 home series coming now, so it is time for India to pick the likes of Gill, Vihari, Mayank, Iyer and Sundar and give them regular chances.

Negatives :-

1. Bumrah as a test bowler has shown the lack of defending totals and often crumbling in pressure situations which means he in not in the same league as Rabada, Cummins, Shaheen and Hasan Ali who, in contrast have shown that they are among the greatest pressure players in the game.

2. Ashwin is an Imran Khan level all rounder in Asia but in contrast, just a Shadab Khan level test bowler in SENA conditions and his batting is worse than Shadab.

Don't bet on it.

 

[pillionrider]

That Australian wickets are no longer challenging for subcontinent teams like they were in the 80's, 90's and early to mid 2000's?

I like how you tried to sneak Pakistan into the mix in Australian conditions

 

[GenericBrand]

That Indians are no better than their Pak/BD neighbors when it comes to whining, on-field antics and conspiracy theories

 

[Third_Umpire]

The result of this series is not surprising at all. India is a mediocre team with mediocre results that are hyped by its media and rabid fans.

- in South Africa LOST
- in England NULL/VOID as series incomplete due to fatigue in Indian camp
- in Australia won a B/C team series
- in or vs. Pakistan NO SHOW
- in or vs. other teams WHO CARES

What exactly does this team get hyped up for? Watching them shout and talk to stumps and camera underscored for me the mental toll these defeats have taken on the team, they are walking around talking to themselves or talking to sticks of wood because no one else cares to listen.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I like how you tried to sneak Pakistan into the mix in Australian conditions

So apart from India which Subcontinent team has won a test match let alone a series in Australia in last 20 years?

 

[cricketjoshila]

The result of this series is not surprising at all. India is a mediocre team with mediocre results that are hyped by its media and rabid fans.

- in South Africa LOST
- in England NULL/VOID as series incomplete due to fatigue in Indian camp
- in Australia won a B/C team series
- in or vs. Pakistan NO SHOW
- in or vs. other teams WHO CARES

What exactly does this team get hyped up for? Watching them shout and talk to stumps and camera underscored for me the mental toll these defeats have taken on the team, they are walking around talking to themselves or talking to sticks of wood because no one else cares to listen.

SA lost. Yes

England series.Null void? As per who? India leads the series and the remaining test will be played this year. India at worst will draw the series. Fatigue? Or covid outbreak in the Indian camp?

In Australia. B/C team series? Really? What other excuses do you have?

In or vs other teams beats everyone in India. Loses in NZ and SA.

In or vs Pakistan: Performance againist a middle to low ranking team isnt the barometer to judge a team.

 

[PakEngFan]

SA lost. Yes

England series.Null void? As per who? India leads the series and the remaining test will be played this year. India at worst will draw the series. Fatigue? Or covid outbreak in the Indian camp?

In Australia. B/C team series? Really? What other excuses do you have?

In or vs other teams beats everyone in India. Loses in NZ and SA.

In or vs Pakistan: Performance againist a middle to low ranking team isnt the barometer to judge a team.

The low ranked team 158-0.

 

[Markhor]

India won in Aus. In england they are leading 2-1.

Here also they won the 1st test.

They are winning tests consistently in SENA countries.

They haven't lost a series at home in nearly a decade.

Since you compared it to Pakistan and pakistani fans, How many tests have Pakistan won in SENA in last decade?

With all due respect - given the billions Indian cricket generates annually and invests into its cricketing infrastructure - a country that didn't play home internationals for 10 years and generates a fraction of BCCI's revenues like Pakistan shouldn't be your benchmark.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

With all due respect - given the billions Indian cricket generates annually and invests into its cricketing infrastructure - a country that didn't play home internationals for 10 years and generates a fraction of BCCI's revenues like Pakistan shouldn't be your benchmark.

Pakistan only becomes the benchmark in these types of threads otherwise we love to live in a bubble where we treat Australia as our new rivals. Why don't we compare our stats with Australia's?

 

[pillionrider]

So apart from India which Subcontinent team has won a test match let alone a series in Australia in last 20 years?

Don't ask negative questions

 

[pillionrider]

Pakistan only becomes the benchmark in these types of threads otherwise we love to live in a bubble where we treat Australia as our new rivals. Why don't we compare our stats with Australia's?

Sure. Last 25 years in Australia....

Australia 14 - 0 Pakistan.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The low ranked team 158-0.

BD just beat NZ in a test away. BD is better team than nz?

 

[Savak]

I like how you tried to sneak Pakistan into the mix in Australian conditions

Pakistan has actually batted decently in Australia of late. We have scored 400 plus runs and 300 plus runs in Australia on many occasions with centuries from YK, Asad Shafiq, Azhar Ali, Babar Azam, Yasir Shah e.t.c. It is the bowling we have struggled badly with.

 

[Savak]

Sure. Last 25 years in Australia....

Australia 14 - 0 Pakistan.

Give Pakistan numerous A tours to Australia and a 4 test series, triangular series in Australia every 2-3 years and we will bridge the gap as well.

 

[Third_Umpire]

SA lost. Yes

England series.Null void? As per who? India leads the series and the remaining test will be played this year. India at worst will draw the series. Fatigue? Or covid outbreak in the Indian camp?

In Australia. B/C team series? Really? What other excuses do you have?

In or vs other teams beats everyone in India. Loses in NZ and SA.

In or vs Pakistan: Performance againist a middle to low ranking team isnt the barometer to judge a team.

Let's try this again.

SA LOSS. Glad we agree.

England NULL/VOID. Is it really a series if one match is being played years after the rest? It renders the original games played useless as both teams approached them with the knowledge that there will be a 4th. And it renders the remaining game useless to because its a one-off with entirely different players. Hence NULL/VOID.

Australia. yes india won, but do you really think Australia cared when half the Indian team was out having babies, injured, or covid fatigue? It was a joke of a series. I could've sworn the Indian physio played 1-2 games, backyard bush cricket.

Series' played in India have no meaning as matches usually don't even make it a full 3 days. It's like an extended ODI, we are talking about test cricket here. If BCCI ever stops making dustbowls we can talk about them.

India historically bottles it against Pakistan, look at past records of games IN INDIA and you'll find Pak leads in both tests and ODIs, despite what the rankings might have been. You can't just not play your bogey team and claim any sort of status ini world cricket. Don't need to remind me of the WC scoreline, those are a handful of games in a H2H that now spans decades.

I am offering you a NEUTRAL perspective, not one that is tinted saffron, green and white.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

That Australian wickets are no longer challenging for subcontinent teams like they were in the 80's, 90's and early to mid 2000's?

That Australia has a bad mental block against India?

The South African wickets are a lot harder and tougher for subcontinent teams than Australian wickets?

South African batsmen are a lot mentally tougher and ready to battle it out against tough bowling in tough conditions vs the Australian batsmen?

On paper a very weak South African batting line up and perhaps not the greatest South African bowling line up has held its own against the greatest Indian bowling line up in history which the Australians came up short again twice in a row.

Australians should hang their head in shame. Sharam se doob ke mar jana chahiye

Wrong perception to begin with.
And this misconception has mentally terrorized even the top think tanks at PCB.

LOL remember they took Muhammad Irfan to Australia, under the wrong perception that “Australia has fast and bouncy tracks”

The reality is:
There is only ONE ground in Australia that has a lively wicker, and that is GABA at Perth.
The wicket is historically hard and bouncey.

Besides that, there nothing extra ordinary in any other Australian wicket.

However, the 2 lessons we learned are, if the team spirit and team mechanics are good, the team can beat the toughest opponents in their own backyard but if the team spirit is down, they will lose to ordinary teams.


And # 2; no matter how good of a team you are, you are never going to win each and every game.
You may win most and you will lose some, even against weaker opposition. That’s the beauty of any sports.


IMO, this loss to SA doesn’t mean much - India still remains a good unit that plays high quality test cricket. It has more international superstars than any other team.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Wrong perception to begin with.
And this misconception has mentally terrorized even the top think tanks at PCB.

LOL remember they took Muhammad Irfan to Australia, under the wrong perception that “Australia has fast and bouncy tracks”

The reality is:
There is only ONE ground in Australia that has a lively wicker, and that is GABA at Perth.
The wicket is historically hard and bouncey.

Besides that, there nothing extra ordinary in any other Australian wicket.

However, the 2 lessons we learned are, if the team spirit and team mechanics are good, the team can beat the toughest opponents in their own backyard but if the team spirit is down, they will lose to ordinary teams.


And # 2; no matter how good of a team you are, you are never going to win each and every game.
You may win most and you will lose some, even against weaker opposition. That’s the beauty of any sports.


IMO, this loss to SA doesn’t mean much - India still remains a good unit that plays high quality test cricket. It has more international superstars than any other team.

* correction
WACA and not GABA

 

[the Great Khan]

We are missing the big elephant in the room..cuptaan big mouth..his toxic behaviour and nonsensical antics clearly aren't helping his young players...as soon as you take him out of the equation the team seems to calm down and play for each other..

Was also a bit of luck with the aussies taking them lightly..I doubt we'll see it again..

 

[ElRaja]

i havnt read the whole topic but ppl missing the point. what does this series show?

india win on the strength of the discipline of their seam bowling. even pak score decently in aus but cant get aussie batsmen out.

this team, has had a purple patch for bowling which india hasnt had in the past, and i dont think will have anytime after shami, ashwin, jadeja and eventually bumrah are gone. ten fifteen years from now these guys will be thought of as indian ATG bowlers.

south african and kiwi conditions minimise indias advantage, which is disciplined seam bowling, and their batting line up (which is pretty average compared to fifteen years ago) gets found out.

 

[pillionrider]

Give Pakistan numerous A tours to Australia and a 4 test series, triangular series in Australia every 2-3 years and we will bridge the gap as well.

Australia seems to want to shorten the suffering though. Test series reduced to 2 tests

 

[Junaids]

1. Rahane is a better captain than Kohli, who allows the team to get hysterical.

2. Australia only has 1 opening batsman, which caused successive home defeats.

3. Australia are home track bullies who will always smash meek defensive teams like England or Misbah's Pakistan, but they don't like it when the pressure is put on them.

4. There is a strong young Indian team available, the guys who won at Brisbane. Guys like Gill, Pant and Washington Sundar are not going to be intimidated.

I wouldn't even dream of playing Ashwin ahead of Washington Sundar in Australia, New Zealand or South Africa. You can pick a brave warrior with decent skills, or a home track coward who would rather whinge at a microphone than address why he took 1 wicket in an entire series.

 

[Buffet]

It tells us that India outplayed Aus in Aus, but did not outplay SA in SA.

Cricket is not a circular logic despite many posters thinking that way.

 

[Buffet]

i havnt read the whole topic but ppl missing the point. what does this series show?

india win on the strength of the discipline of their seam bowling. even pak score decently in aus but cant get aussie batsmen out.

this team, has had a purple patch for bowling which india hasnt had in the past, and i dont think will have anytime after shami, ashwin, jadeja and eventually bumrah are gone. ten fifteen years from now these guys will be thought of as indian ATG bowlers.

south african and kiwi conditions minimise indias advantage, which is disciplined seam bowling, and their batting line up (which is pretty average compared to fifteen years ago) gets found out.

+1

It is such a simple thing to understand. Indian has been winning pretty much due to their all-around bowling. I don't think many bowling units in history have avg of 25-26 home/away for 6-7 years. Indians bowling unit is standout among all bowling units for a while and averages 25-26 home and away both. They don't have strong batting like past.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

BD just beat NZ in a test away. BD is better team than nz?

No. Bangladesh is better than India in NZ.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Let's try this again.

SA LOSS. Glad we agree.

England NULL/VOID. Is it really a series if one match is being played years after the rest? It renders the original games played useless as both teams approached them with the knowledge that there will be a 4th. And it renders the remaining game useless to because its a one-off with entirely different players. Hence NULL/VOID.

Australia. yes india won, but do you really think Australia cared when half the Indian team was out having babies, injured, or covid fatigue? It was a joke of a series. I could've sworn the Indian physio played 1-2 games, backyard bush cricket.

Series' played in India have no meaning as matches usually don't even make it a full 3 days. It's like an extended ODI, we are talking about test cricket here. If BCCI ever stops making dustbowls we can talk about them.

India historically bottles it against Pakistan, look at past records of games IN INDIA and you'll find Pak leads in both tests and ODIs, despite what the rankings might have been. You can't just not play your bogey team and claim any sort of status ini world cricket. Don't need to remind me of the WC scoreline, those are a handful of games in a H2H that now spans decades.

I am offering you a NEUTRAL perspective, not one that is tinted saffron, green and white.

Its not null or void because the teams have decided to continue the series and the ICC has approved it. The result will reflect in the official scorecard.

So Australia didn't care losing a test series at home? And you got to know this how?

So SA winning in SA matters but India winning in India doesn't? I don't complain about grass or bounce or swing or seam in SENA. This is called home advantage.

WI a 2 decades back beat teams up for fun? Should that matter now? Australia would blank teams home and away does it matter now?

Pakistan was a very good team in 80s and 90s, they now are mid to low ranking team in tests. So nothing about being a bogey team. When you are good team you beat others but that doesn't mean that 2 decades down the line those historical records will determine how good you are.

If pakistan is ranked 1 or 2 i could understand. No one needs to beat Pakistan to claim a status in world cricket. The team isnt that good.

Very understandable the tint in the glass.

 

[shamaan]

Its not null or void because the teams have decided to continue the series and the ICC has approved it. The result will reflect in the official scorecard.

So Australia didn't care losing a test series at home? And you got to know this how?

So SA winning in SA matters but India winning in India doesn't? I don't complain about grass or bounce or swing or seam in SENA. This is called home advantage.

WI a 2 decades back beat teams up for fun? Should that matter now? Australia would blank teams home and away does it matter now?

Pakistan was a very good team in 80s and 90s, they now are mid to low ranking team in tests. So nothing about being a bogey team. When you are good team you beat others but that doesn't mean that 2 decades down the line those historical records will determine how good you are.

If pakistan is ranked 1 or 2 i could understand. No one needs to beat Pakistan to claim a status in world cricket. The team isnt that good.

Very understandable the tint in the glass.

If Pakistan are a mid to low ranking team what about England ?

 

[cricketjoshila]

If Pakistan are a mid to low ranking team what about England ?

Ranked above pakistan. No?

 

[shaz619]

Mentally scarred by Pakistan prior to the SA series was a problem.

1st Success in AUS was due to them facing a weaker side.

2nd Success in AUS was a fluke, confirmed by the triumph involving a bunch of inexperienced kids.

Zero ICC trophies to and lost the WTC team.

Delusional clowns.

 

[shah_1]

They can't bat on pitches that has bounce and movement whereas Australia has only got bounce.

They were whitewashed in NZ for the same reason.

 

[muqarrab]

That Australian wickets are no longer challenging for subcontinent teams like they were in the 80's, 90's and early to mid 2000's?

That Australia has a bad mental block against India?

The South African wickets are a lot harder and tougher for subcontinent teams than Australian wickets?

South African batsmen are a lot mentally tougher and ready to battle it out against tough bowling in tough conditions vs the Australian batsmen?

On paper a very weak South African batting line up and perhaps not the greatest South African bowling line up has held its own against the greatest Indian bowling line up in history which the Australians came up short again twice in a row.

Australians should hang their head in shame. Sharam se doob ke mar jana chahiye

SA and NZ make the best test match pitches outside of asia. Australian pitches have been roads since early 2000s.

 

[sweep_shot]

It tells us that Australian conditions perhaps suit India more.

I think South African pitches have more bounce and it is often not easy for Asian batsmen.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

SA and NZ make the best test match pitches outside of asia. Australian pitches have been roads since early 2000s.

NZ have the worst pitches in the world. Lireral pancakes every single day except for first two session of first day.

 

[therealAB]

ATM the Indian batsmen cope fine with the pace and bounce, but struggle against lateral movement; it's pretty simple

 

[Justcrazy]

SA and NZ make the best test match pitches outside of asia. Australian pitches have been roads since early 2000s.

Other than India rest of the teams have struggled on those roads !

 

[Joseph Gomes]

ATM the Indian batsmen cope fine with the pace and bounce, but struggle against lateral movement; it's pretty simple

This has always been the case actually. India won 2 matches in England because English batting is minnow level. India has struggled in England and SA in last 20 years

 

[therealAB]

This has always been the case actually. India won 2 matches in England because English batting is minnow level. India has struggled in England and SA in last 20 years

I actually don't think it has always been the case. Batsmen like Dravid averaged much more in swinging than bouncy conditions for instance

 

[Artaxerxes]

India won one test series against Australia in Australia when Smith and Warner were not playing.It was a success but people shouldn’t get carried away.It was just a one off win.It can happen in sport.I don’t think India can beat Australia in Australia regularly.

 

[Last Monetarist]

India won one test series against Australia in Australia when Smith and Warner were not playing.It was a success but people shouldn’t get carried away.It was just a one off win.It can happen in sport.I don’t think India can beat Australia in Australia regularly.

What about the second win last year? Is that also subject to an asterisk? The denial of India's successes in Australia is honestly embarrassing now.

 

[Romali_rotti]

India won one test series against Australia in Australia when Smith and Warner were not playing.It was a success but people shouldn’t get carried away.It was just a one off win.It can happen in sport.I don’t think India can beat Australia in Australia regularly.

Clearly this guy doesn't really know what he is talking about..

 

[skhanmac]

Part of the reason are the drop-in pitches in Australia being used recently. That bounce and pace we use to see a decade ago is not there anymore. Even Sri Lanka beat them in T20s in 2017.

 

[shamaan]

Ranked above pakistan. No?

They are but rankings don't always show the the true picture.

In English/asain conditions Pakistan are a better side.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Clearly this guy doesn't really know what he is talking about..

Can you tell me how many series has India won in Australia?.

 

[jnaveen1980]

India had no strong tail to bail India out in SA. When you persist with utter flops in the batting department like this, this is what happens. In Australia Thakur/Sundar/Pant/Ashwin saved the day for India. It is harder for tail to show up in SA. Hardly any total for the bowlers to defend. In one match they played with just 3 bowlers as one got injured spinner had no purchase.

Above all the batting approach deserves firing. Incredibly irresponsible batting by everyone. They were batting like they were playing T20 game.

 

[jnaveen1980]

+1

It is such a simple thing to understand. Indian has been winning pretty much due to their all-around bowling. I don't think many bowling units in history have avg of 25-26 home/away for 6-7 years. Indians bowling unit is standout among all bowling units for a while and averages 25-26 home and away both. They don't have strong batting like past.

Not only bowlers help with bowling. But also most of the critical wins were due to batting from Tailenders. India persisted with 2 dead weights for far too long. Kohli was also out of form for 2 years. KL Rahul is just coming back. Agarwal is highly suspect overseas. Basically 5 batsmen who cannot be trusted and a keepr batsman who cannot be trusted. It is too much to ask the bowlers to do day in day out.

 

[Napa]

this team, has had a purple patch for bowling which india hasnt had in the past, and i dont think will have anytime after shami, ashwin, jadeja and eventually bumrah are gone. ten fifteen years from now these guys will be thought of as indian ATG bowlers.

10, 15 years from now, the Indian bowling will be stronger than it is now simply because many more Indians are getting the opportunity to earn a living playing cricket. Ashwin and Jadeja are already not the best Indian spinners, it is Axar Patel.

 

[Napa]

Excellent question OP, I would say that India are still psychologically damaged and scarred since 152-0 in the WT20

You keep repeating 152-0. If losing one WC game leads to psychological damage and scarring, what impact did 12 losses in all 12 WC games have?

 

[shaz619]

You keep repeating 152-0. If losing one WC game leads to psychological damage and scarring, what impact did 12 losses in all 12 WC games have?

It depends how you take it yeah, I was answering the question in the OP it’s a valid assessment, India are jobbing to SA now to, mental damage confirmed.

 

[ElRaja]

10, 15 years from now, the Indian bowling will be stronger than it is now simply because many more Indians are getting the opportunity to earn a living playing cricket. Ashwin and Jadeja are already not the best Indian spinners, it is Axar Patel.

maybe, or maybe not, you could go a long way down the line, anil kumble is best leggie india produced in recent times, he debuted almost 30 years ago, kapil dev is the greatest all rounder india produced, he debuted 40 years ago.

greater participation, and financial security is no guarantee of producing world class test players, otherwise the last 10 to years would have produced at least one atg batsmen, but i dont think any batsmen who made his india debut in the last 10 years would get close to sehwag, gavaskar, dravid, tendu, kohli, laxman as a top 6.

imo bumrah, shami and peak ishant as front three seamers will be very tough for india to replicate after them.

 

[Napa]

maybe, or maybe not, you could go a long way down the line, anil kumble is best leggie india produced in recent times, he debuted almost 30 years ago, kapil dev is the greatest all rounder india produced, he debuted 40 years ago.

greater participation, and financial security is no guarantee of producing world class test players, otherwise the last 10 to years would have produced at least one atg batsmen, but i dont think any batsmen who made his india debut in the last 10 years would get close to sehwag, gavaskar, dravid, tendu, kohli, laxman as a top 6.

imo bumrah, shami and peak ishant as front three seamers will be very tough for india to replicate after them.

India winning a gold in javelin in the Olympics blew my mind... there is a lot more of physically exceptional Indian sportsmen who will debut in the future.

 

[Bilal Ahmad15]

It tells me that the current Australia Team is very overrated. They are useless in the subcontinent, and they literally have only played at home and England in the last 2 years. So basically they've been living a lie that they are a great test team for the last 2 years, and this year is going to expose that, with their tours to Pakistan, Sri Lanka and India.

However, I am not intending to say that India's win in Aus was some sort of fluke, it's still one of the greatest test wins in cricket history. A lot of people here are jealous so they are just saying this India team is a mediocre team and gets fluke wins, which is wrong.

Possibly also, the pitches in Australia don't look to have the same challenges they had a couple of years ago in mid 2010s, in terms of bounce?