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What exactly hinders Pakistan and India from becoming a Franco-German type neighbors?

What exactly hinders Pakistan and India from becoming a Franco-German type neighbors?

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Pakpak said:
Ofcourse Indians are obsessed, Not just here, you go to ANY online portal or message board which is Pakistani, it will be targeted by Indians. You go to any YouTube video where even a Western parrot visits Pakistan, the comments will be full of Indians trash talking.

I am a football fan, have spent decades on various football online spaces. Ofcourse all of them Western, every SINGLE thread or mention about Pakistan gets Indians in their droves trash talking and spreading their propagandas.
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Guess we don’t know to google much then, we directly reach the forums.
 
Pakistan and India relations will normalize if Pakistan becomes a total Islamic state or a military dictatorship.

This half-baked military/ democracy will not work.

If military becomes the power in Pakistan they will have to balance both ideology and administratation which includes trade/diplomacy which means they will try to resolve conflicts. You can’t have a conflict between the 2 like it seems the case with current day Pakistan.

Same goes if Pak goes full Islamic ala Afghanistan then only 2 outcomes, either a full fledged war or attacks or they will normalize relations, focus on implementing the religion in their own country the “right way” as per their belief while building diplomatic stake like the Taliban has been doing.

Till then everything is a romantic pipe dream like bollywood movies.
 
JaDed said:
There was report on what Pakistan and India googled most about each other,
very surprising results:

Pakistan googled way more about Indian stuff than Indians did about Pakistan.. yet we keep hearing how Indians are obsessed.. maybe time for me to put up threads like new admins are doing about India.
Click to expand...

What kind of stuff?
 
JaDed said:
I gave an honest answer in the start of the thread but seeing how the thread has progressed along with OP and the moderator have to say Pakistanis do think highly of their establishment.

I used to do the ignore my dad when he in 1990s thought Pakistan was the issue for India’s lack of economic progress, then the progress happened thanks to sane Indian leaders who couldn’t care less about Pakistan.

Pakistani posters clearly think India is the issue and not their Establishment, I think sane Indians should let them think that because that thought process works for India.
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The issue isn’t India, it’s the Pakistani establishment, a reality that has become widely recognized among the people of Pakistan in recent years.
 
HalBass9 said:
The issue isn’t India, it’s the Pakistani establishment, a reality that has become widely recognized among the people of Pakistan in recent years.
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And not recent, but people knew it since fatima jinnah was killed, bhutto was hanged, bugti massacred, mqm and taliban created by the same entity so on so forth.

These two latter cohorts don't matter, but better late than never I'd still say.
 
Farhan The Man said:
And not recent, but people knew it since fatima jinnah was killed, bhutto was hanged, bugti massacred, mqm and taliban created by the same entity so on so forth.

These two latter cohorts don't matter, but better late than never I'd still say.
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People were aware, but social media has made them more outspoken now.
 
rpant_gabba said:
If thats the case, Pak army can leave. India army will be wasting its money on a useless piece of Ice.

Is pak army that dumb not to realize this?
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waiting for the @The Bald Eagle

Why is Pak establish not pulling this brilliant move?

why pak establishment refusing to authenticate Actual ground position?
 
Markhor said:
The more I read and hear from Pakistani and Indians, the less I'm surprised our ancestors butchered each other in 47.
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This might have added fuel to the fire

"We will either have a divided India or a destroyed India"
 
I think if the Kashmiris were given independence from both then we would both win and save a fortune on trying to kill each with the latest weapons, which only benefits the Americans, Chinese and other big sellers
 
Bewal Express said:
I think if the Kashmiris were given independence from both then we would both win and save a fortune on trying to kill each with the latest weapons, which only benefits the Americans, Chinese and other big sellers
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@rpant_gabba the solution.
rpant_gabba said:
so who is going to grab IOK from India? Pak army? haven't they been trying since 1947?
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Yes they could have...if they had a chief like Hamid Gul...but with current lot not much hopes.
 
The Bald Eagle said:
@rpant_gabba the solution.

Yes they could have...if they had a chief like Hamid Gul...but with current lot not much hopes.
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Hamid gul? wasn't in charge for while? if he was so great why didn't push for it. Face it, guys like hamid gul are good with only using non-state actors against soft target.

Pak shot its load in 1965. do you remember what happened? you guys still celebrating not losing Lahore in a conflict u started to liberate Kashmir.

They should have focused on economy in 60's and Kashmir would have fallen to them without a war.

Good for india that establishment didn't have the brains.
 
Bewal Express said:
I think if the Kashmiris were given independence from both then we would both win and save a fortune on trying to kill each with the latest weapons, which only benefits the Americans, Chinese and other big sellers
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Pakistan had the opportunity to follow through with their agreements if they wanted plebiscite. They chose not to


Pak habit of using non-state actors as a policy is paying great dividends for it. Hope they continue.
 
rpant_gabba said:
Pakistan had the opportunity to follow through with their agreements if they wanted plebiscite. They chose not to


Pak habit of using non-state actors as a policy is paying great dividends for it. Hope they continue.
Click to expand...
Take PK out of it. We need to move forward and bring peace, which you guys say you want but never have. Let the Kashmiris decide and the problem is solved.
 
Bewal Express said:
Take PK out of it. We need to move forward and bring peace, which you guys say you want but never have. Let the Kashmiris decide and the problem is solved.
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How about Pak takes itself out? remove itself from POK, set an example by making POK a self administered area without any Pak involvement?
 
rpant_gabba said:
How about Pak takes itself out? remove itself from POK, set an example by making POK a self administered area without any Pak involvement?
Click to expand...
And if we do that you will let Kashmiris decide? You see when it comes to it, you have no interest in peace. You guys are trying to make up for 100s of years of perceived humiliation.
 
Bewal Express said:
And if we do that you will let Kashmiris decide? You see when it comes to it, you have no interest in peace. You guys are trying to make up for 100s of years of perceived humiliation.
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1) Pakistan has no standing. The last ruler of Kashmir acceded to India. End of story.

2) Pakistan is definably a peace seeking country. Jinnah sending non state actors, Operation Grandslam, gibraltar, searchlight, Kargil along with use of non-state actors are all strong indicators of their peace seeking nature.
 
rpant_gabba said:
so @The Bald Eagle what would Hamid gul would have done differently that would have allowed him to succeed where rest of Pak leaders have failed miserably.

enlighten us
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He wouldn't have back down like Musharraf on Kargil under US pressure or any PM's overtures.

The fortunes in Kargil changed when mujahideens were deserted on their own.
 
The Bald Eagle said:
He wouldn't have back down like Musharraf on Kargil under US pressure or any PM's overtures.

The fortunes in Kargil changed when mujahideens were deserted on their own.
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In which case it was a dumb venture by the military in the first place if they weren't able to follow it through once international pressure was applied. Almost PCB levels of stupidity.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
In which case it was a dumb venture by the military in the first place if they weren't able to follow it through once international pressure was applied. Almost PCB levels of stupidity.
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Total madness...and yep PCB level antics
 
The Bald Eagle said:
He wouldn't have back down like Musharraf on Kargil under US pressure or any PM's overtures.
Click to expand...
Sure. whatever floats your boat.

If you decide to wake up, read this book.

The Bald Eagle said:
The fortunes in Kargil changed when mujahideens were deserted on their own.
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ROTFLMAO.

I hope for your sake you are being sarcastic. If not, It will be good for India if Pakistan is filled with people like you.
 

For those questioning Indian establishment's willingness to resolve Kashmir dispute​

====​

Like Pakistan Army, unresolved Kashmir issue suits BJP too, says Mehbooba Mufti​


Former J&K Chief Minister and Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) president Mehbooba Mufti on Thursday said the BJP too wants to keep the Kashmir issue alive like the Pakistan Army, to win elections in the country.

“It seems the BJP too wants the Kashmir issue to be alive to win votes in the rest of the country. As is said about the establishment and the Army in Pakistan, the Kashmir issue is important for their relevance. The Kashmir issue suits the BJP too like the Pakistan Army. The BJP seems to be unmoved by people dying in J&K,” Ms. Mufti said.

Ms. Mufti made these remarks during a membership drive launched by the party in Jammu on Thursday.

Speaking on the occasion, Ms. Mufti targeted the BJP and its leadership. “They [the BJP] know that they haven’t solved any problem by abrogating Article 370 [withdrawal of J&K’s special status]. (Union Home Minister) Amit Shah ji has to call a meeting every time something happens in Kashmir, as he knows that people are not happy with what he has done here. Unsatisfied by Article 370’s abrogation, it has brought the Waqf Bill to target Muslims,” Ms. Mufti said.

Ms. Mufti said many saw the BJP as a nationalist party when former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee engaged Pakistani military general Pervez Musharraf and forced him to the table, which resulted in peace in J&K.

“Prime Minister and Amit Shah sahib say that everything is well in J&K. So, I ask them to open all routes then. What do we have to hide in J&K? In comparison to other parts of J&K across the border, we have dozens of medical colleges and universities here. Let them see how we live here. Allow them to visit here. So, you have nothing to hide except that you want to get votes by keeping the issue of J&K alive,” she added.

The BJP termed Ms. Mufti’s remarks “irresponsible and condemnable”. “It looks like she has started toeing the line of separatism to mislead the masses and regain the lost political turf,” the BJP’s Ravinder Raina said.

Source: The Hindu
 
I think Pakistan want to be friendly with India.

It is India that wants to backstab and be petty. Not just with Pakistan but they do it with every neighboring state. India even had spies in Qatar.

India is like that friend who pretends to be your friend but gossips about you behind your back. :inti
 
sweep_shot said:
I think Pakistan want to be friendly with India.

It is India that wants to backstab and be petty. Not just with Pakistan but they do it with every neighboring state. India even had spies in Qatar.

India is like that friend who pretends to be your friend but gossips about you behind your back. :inti
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What better country than Ban to make this accusation lol ! :qdkcheeky
 
sweep_shot said:
I think Pakistan want to be friendly with India.

It is India that wants to backstab and be petty. Not just with Pakistan but they do it with every neighboring state. India even had spies in Qatar.

India is like that friend who pretends to be your friend but gossips about you behind your back. :inti
Click to expand...
India will become the most dependable at once every one converts 💚 at this moment
 
The Bald Eagle said:

For those questioning Indian establishment's willingness to resolve Kashmir dispute​

====​

Like Pakistan Army, unresolved Kashmir issue suits BJP too, says Mehbooba Mufti​


Former J&K Chief Minister and Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) president Mehbooba Mufti on Thursday said the BJP too wants to keep the Kashmir issue alive like the Pakistan Army, to win elections in the country.

“It seems the BJP too wants the Kashmir issue to be alive to win votes in the rest of the country. As is said about the establishment and the Army in Pakistan, the Kashmir issue is important for their relevance. The Kashmir issue suits the BJP too like the Pakistan Army. The BJP seems to be unmoved by people dying in J&K,” Ms. Mufti said.

Ms. Mufti made these remarks during a membership drive launched by the party in Jammu on Thursday.

Speaking on the occasion, Ms. Mufti targeted the BJP and its leadership. “They [the BJP] know that they haven’t solved any problem by abrogating Article 370 [withdrawal of J&K’s special status]. (Union Home Minister) Amit Shah ji has to call a meeting every time something happens in Kashmir, as he knows that people are not happy with what he has done here. Unsatisfied by Article 370’s abrogation, it has brought the Waqf Bill to target Muslims,” Ms. Mufti said.

Ms. Mufti said many saw the BJP as a nationalist party when former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee engaged Pakistani military general Pervez Musharraf and forced him to the table, which resulted in peace in J&K.

“Prime Minister and Amit Shah sahib say that everything is well in J&K. So, I ask them to open all routes then. What do we have to hide in J&K? In comparison to other parts of J&K across the border, we have dozens of medical colleges and universities here. Let them see how we live here. Allow them to visit here. So, you have nothing to hide except that you want to get votes by keeping the issue of J&K alive,” she added.

The BJP termed Ms. Mufti’s remarks “irresponsible and condemnable”. “It looks like she has started toeing the line of separatism to mislead the masses and regain the lost political turf,” the BJP’s Ravinder Raina said.

Source: The Hindu
Click to expand...

I grew up watching these Kashmiri politicians. Basically 3-4 families in the valley who think Kashmir is their personal property. The valley has been much better off ever since PM Modi broke their back by abolishing article 370. Kashmir right now is in its best phase since decades of darkness. Tourism is increasing, infrastructure is developing at a great pace. People are freely moving within Kashmir. Local Kashmiris are seeing rise in business thanks to the new positive developments.
 
Bhaijaan said:
I grew up watching these Kashmiri politicians. Basically 3-4 families in the valley who think Kashmir is their personal property. The valley has been much better off ever since PM Modi broke their back by abolishing article 370. Kashmir right now is in its best phase since decades of darkness. Tourism is increasing, infrastructure is developing at a great pace. People are freely moving within Kashmir. Local Kashmiris are seeing rise in business thanks to the new positive developments.
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Kashmir is the property of every native Kashmiri.
 
FearlessRoar said:
Kashmir is the property of every native Kashmiri.
Click to expand...

Exactly.
Many of whom belonging to the Hindu religion were forcefully driven out of the valley by Islamists. Kashmiri Hindus must be rehabilitated. Kashmir doesn’t belong to any religious cult.
 
More than 40 construction workers were missing after an avalanche in India’s Himalayan state of Uttarakhand on Friday following heavy snowfall, officials said.

The avalanche hit a construction camp in the Chamoli district, burying the workers under snow and debris.

Rescue teams dug for hours through heavy snow, Ridhim Agarwal of the state disaster relief force said in a statement, adding: “So far, 15 workers are safe while 42 are missing.”

As soon as the weather conditions improve, high-altitude rescue teams will be deployed by helicopter to the scene, she added.

Deepam Seth, the state’s top police officer, said the bad weather was hampering the rescue operations.

“It has been snowing with strong winds … The roads are completely blocked. We have deployed snow cutters to open the road,” he told broadcaster NDTV.

Uttarakhand Chief Minister Pushkar Singh Dhami said he was “saddened” by the incident and was monitoring the rescue operations.

Avalanches and landslides are common in the upper reaches of the Himalayas, especially during the winter season. Scientists have shown that climate change spurred by humans burning fossil fuels is making weather events more severe, super-charged by warmer oceans.

The increased pace of development in the fragile Himalayan regions has also heightened fears about the fallout from deforestation and construction.

In 2021, nearly 100 people died in Uttarakhand after a huge glacier chunk fell into a river, triggering flash floods.

Devastating monsoon floods and landslides in 2013 killed 6,000 people and led to calls for a review of development projects in the state.

Source: The Express Tribune
 
Would have not discussed this incident much but such incidents are too common in Siachen, Kashmir region across the borders too. So why not opt for resolution of conflict through dialogue and US resolutions.

By ignoring this issue, especially Indian government is suggesting that these lives are worth nothing
 

Pakistan, India exchange nuclear sites lists as FO flags water, regional concerns​


Pakistan and India on Thursday exchanged updated lists of their nuclear installations, continuing an annual confidence-building measure under a bilateral agreement signed in 1988, the Foreign Office said.

Foreign Office spokesperson Tahir Hussain Andrabi said the exchange took place in line with the Agreement on the Prohibition of Attacks against Nuclear Installations and Facilities, signed on December 31, 1988. The agreement came into force on January 27, 1991, and the two countries have shared such lists on the first day of every year since 1992.

“In continuation of the practice, the exchange took place today as well,” Andrabi told a weekly news briefing. “A list of nuclear installations and facilities in Pakistan was officially handed over to the representative of the Indian High Commission in the Foreign Office today.”

“I understand that the Indian government is also sharing the list of Indian nuclear installations with our High Commission in New Delhi today,” he added.

The spokesperson said the agreement requires both countries to inform each other annually of their nuclear installations and facilities. He also confirmed that Pakistan and India exchanged lists of prisoners.

“The Indian government is also sharing the list of Pakistani prisoners in their custody with the Pakistani high commission in New Delhi,” Andrabi said.

Under the Agreement on Consular Access, signed in 2008, both sides are required to exchange lists of prisoners in each other’s custody on January 1 and July 1 every year.

New dams on Chenab

Addressing India’s recent moves on hydroelectric projects, Andrabi said New Delhi could not misuse its “restricted allowance” under the Indus Waters Treaty (IWT) to unilaterally construct projects on the western rivers.

He was responding to a question about India’s approval of the 260-megawatt Dulhasti Stage-II hydropower project on the Chenab River in Kishtwar district of Indian Illegally Occupied Jammu and Kashmir.

“We have seen these media reports regarding Indian plans to construct the Dulhasti Stage-II hydroelectric [project] on the Chenab River,” he said. “Obviously, these reports raise serious concerns as no prior information or notification was shared with Pakistan with regard to this project.”

Andrabi said the sharing of such information was mandated by the IWT, a World Bank-brokered water-sharing treaty signed in Karachi on September 19, 1960. The treaty grants India rights over the eastern rivers -- Ravi, Sutlej and Beas -- while Pakistan has rights over the western rivers -- Indus, Jhelum and Chenab -- with limited use allowed to India for purposes including power generation.

“Such acts of commission and omission yet again exemplify a complete disregard of international law and bilateral treaties,” Andrabi said. He added that Pakistan’s Indus water commissioner had sought clarification from his Indian counterpart on the nature, scope and technical details of the reported projects.

“He also wishes to ascertain whether this constitutes a new run-of-the-river project, an alteration or additional work on an existing plant,” Andrabi said.

He stressed that any project on the western rivers was subject to strict design and operational controls, as well as information-sharing requirements. “In the absence of formal communication from the Indian side, Pakistan is unable to access the project’s conformity with the treaty provisions,” he said.

“We, therefore, call upon India to urgently return to treaty compliance and respond to the queries raised by our Indus water commissioner in his latest as well as his earlier communications,” he added.

Andrabi said Pakistan viewed the IWT as a binding international agreement and remained committed to peaceful dispute resolution, but would “never compromise on our existential water rights”.

China-Taiwan issue

On relations with China, Andrabi said Pakistan had “consistently supported China, in all matters of its core interests, including Taiwan”. He reiterated that Pakistan adhered to the One-China principle and regarded Taiwan as an inalienable part of China.

“We would urge all relevant countries to abide by their historical commitments, take steps to foster peace, security and development in Taiwan,” he said, calling on them to refrain from actions that could aggravate tensions or undermine regional stability.

Pakistanis stranded in Afghanistan

The spokesperson also provided an update on Pakistani nationals stranded in Afghanistan, saying 15 students and another 291 individuals had safely returned home. “We are in contact with the Afghan authorities,” he said.

He said a total of 1,199 Pakistanis had approached the embassy in Kabul for assistance, including 549 students and 402 other individuals, adding that coordination with Taliban authorities was ongoing to ensure their safety.

Regional issues

On regional issues, Andrabi reaffirmed Pakistan’s commitment to the unity and sovereignty of Yemen and expressed solidarity with Saudi Arabia, supporting diplomatic efforts to resolve the conflict. “We hope the Yemeni people and regional powers will work together towards a lasting solution,” he said.

He also rejected Israel’s recent recognition of Somaliland and reiterated Pakistan’s support for Somalia’s sovereignty. Andrabi said Foreign Minister Ishaq Dar, along with foreign ministers from other countries and representatives of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, had issued a statement condemning Somaliland’s unilateral recognition.

Andrabi said Dar also held telephone conversations with officials in Tabuk, Uzbekistan and Somalia, discussing diplomatic cooperation and upcoming visits, including a planned visit to China for the Pakistan-China Strategic Dialogue.

The spokesperson further confirmed that former National Assembly Speaker Ayaz Sadiq attended the funeral prayers of Bangladesh’s former prime minister Khaleda Zia and met her family to offer condolences. He said Sadiq also held talks with Bangladesh’s national security adviser.

Reports said Indian Foreign Minister Subrahmanyan Jaishankar briefly met Sadiq in Dhaka on the sidelines of the funeral, marking the first such interaction between senior officials of the two rivals since their military conflict in May. According to officials present, the two exchanged a brief handshake and pleasantries, with no formal talks reported.

Source: The Express Tribune
 
KB said:
In the epilogue of her excellent book, Shadows at Noon, the first rate Indian historian, Joya Chatterji, argues that we need to look beyond the shouty rhetoric between the two states and acknowledge that pragmatism has more usually defined the actual behaviour of the states.

She quotes at length an amusing exchange between bureaucrats of the two countries who were negotiating what would become the Calcutta Agreement in 1948. Amongst a tense backdrop there was “much laughter and mutual leg-pulling.”

Pallavi Raghavan has also written a book, Animosity at Bay, that argues in those early years the relationship between the two states was actually marked more by cooperation than conflict. “At its heart,” she writes, “the India–Pakistan relationship contains a collaborative element.”

Certainly in the early years mutual agreement was reached in a number of areas as outlined by the following agreements: I) Liaquat-Nehru declaration establishing custodians of evacuee property, 1947; ii) Join Defence Council decision to establish the Military Evacuation Organisation, 1947; iii) Calcutta Agreement on the protection of the cultural rights, property, and lives of minorities, 1948; iv) Karachi Agreement, which established a ceasefire line in Kashmir, 1949; v) Liaquat-Nehru Pact, which dealt with rights of refugees and minorities, 1950.

The arguments of Chatterji and Raghavan are important in providing a more nuanced perspective on the relationship between the two states and showing that it is not one of relentless hostility.

This said, I think what made some of the early collaboration possible was that the men (and they were usually men) often knew each other from the pre-partition days and recognised each other as belonging to the same social class.

I suspect that now there is much more distance and much less mutual empathy between the elites of the states.
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I came across a passage recently from Andrea Benvenuti (Nehru’s Bandung) which suggested that this early sense of empathy was not exclusive to the elite 'old boys' network. Benvenuti offers a striking comparison regarding the public reception of two foreign leaders during the 1950s. He notes that government efforts to manufacture enthusiasm for the famous Chinese premier, Zhou Enlai, even employing "paid cheerers," failed to ignite the public. Crowds were "thin" and "subdued."

The Australian High Commission reported that Zhou’s visit “lacked real fervour as well as the numbers of crowds” that had welcomed the Pakistani Prime Minister, Mohammad Ali Bogra, only months earlier in August 1953. This despite Bogra being a political lightweight. (In Ayesha Jalal’s unflattering assessment, "A confirmed political non-entity from east Bengal, Bogra was pathetically pro-American - the type whom Americans often find a trifle embarrassing.")

This suggests that in those early years, that popular engagement, however ambivalent, was still anchored in shared history and a degree of emotional proximity which could not be manufactured through state-sponsored pageantry.

Full passage from Benvenuti:

“Despite the government’s efforts to encourage people’s attendance by providing free transport to the airport and employing paid cheerers from the Public Works Department, the crowds were thin along the route, their demeanour subdued. And they remained small (by Indian standards) and apathetic for the extent of Zhou’s visit. As the Australian High Commission reported to Canberra, the visit ‘lacked the real fervour as well as the numbers of crowds’ that welcomed Pakistani Prime Minister Mohammed Ali Bogra in August 1953.”
 
I am sure Pakistan want to be a good neighbor.

But, India always act like a snake. They backstab all of their neighbors. They rip off all of their neighbors.

Even if Kashmir issue gets resolved, I expect India to cause other dramas. They can't live without dramas (Bollywood effect?). :inti
 
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