What is basis of deen of Islam, Quran only, Quran and Hadith or Quran and Sunnah?

[Mughal]

As far as I know about deen of islam it seems the quraan is the only foundation of it, not quraan and hadis nor quraan and sunnah.

 

[Madplayer]

All of them. Especially that what is consistent with each other.

Sunnah is very important because it gives a practical aspect which paints a clearer picture.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Quran.

Hadith and Sunnah are to be consulted for minute details of rulings and detailed tafsir otherwise Quran gives a broad enough idea for almost everything.

 

[IAJ]

To understand Quran you need Ahadeeth of the beloved Prophet (SAW). You have alot of topics in Quran which are straight forward to understand, but in other topics you need Ahadeeth (sunna, tafseer) to understand them.

 

[khan-92]

As far as I know about deen of islam it seems the quraan is the only foundation of it, not quraan and hadis nor quraan and sunnah.

Quran, Hadeeth and understanding of this through Fiqh.

 

[DeadBall]

To understand Quran you need Ahadeeth of the beloved Prophet (SAW). You have alot of topics in Quran which are straight forward to understand, but in other topics you need Ahadeeth (sunna, tafseer) to understand them.

Why not make it all straight forward to understand then avoiding all further misinterpretations and the corruption of man? Also to have written it in a clear and concise manner in the respective languages of all the various nations would have been a logical move.

 

[Mughal]

Dear friends, thank you for your responses.

In my view people who claim to be muslims must only and only take the quraan as foundation of deen of islam and nothing else for extracting basic framework or structure of deen of islam. Why?

Because the quraan is word of God and the rest are human words. God is free of making mistakes but people are not, be they messengers of God.

So if we will try to understand the quraan through the hadis then it is like we are trying to see something that is clearly visible through the badly smeared glasses which means we will not be able to see the clear thing clearly.

The quraan itself tells us messengers of Allah made mistakes which means humans are humans and prone to making mistakes otherwise the best among human beings could not have made any kind of mistakes eg the messengers of Allah.

So in the proper context of the quraan it is not people who are to be followed blindly but revelations of God and whoever follows revelations of God properly should be supported be one messenger of God or any other human beings. This is how ummah is supposed to come about ie all people following rule of law of Allah as their sole ruler in this kingdom of the universe. So people who put messengers of God or other Godly people equal to or above the law of God are going about deen of islam the very wrong way.

None is above the law of God not even God himself because he too chose to honour his law and on that basis he promised a lot of things in the quraan for mankind. So if God is not going to break his law then who else can be above his law to disregard it? So people need to stop believing wrong things in the name of deen of islam.

The quraan also tells mankind to support messengers of Allah and that means only in things which they do according to requirements of Allah for success of mission they have been assigned by Allah.

The quraan also tells people to not to follow even their own very ancestors blindly instead they should use their own better judgment and follow them only if they are saying and doing what is right.

This means the quran does not allow blind following of anyone at all instead all should use their own God given intellectual faculties to see what is right or wrong or true or false and then support or oppose it. So the criterion for deciding truth and falsehood or right and wrong is only and only the quraan. Not quraan and hadis or quraan and sunnah as mullahs have been misleading the ummah in order to create personality cults.

However once we have deen of islam main framework from the quraan then we can also use hadis and sunnah to fill in any needed detail.

In my view the quraan should be interpreted with help of the quraan itself only in light of real world realities. Once muslims do this all sects will be eliminated and ummah will become a reality once again.

regards and all the best.

 

[Justcrazy]

Allah swt did not just send message but along with that messengers and prophets. They explained the revelations and implemented on that and showed us how to live our lives according to that.

Thus basis of Islam is Quran and sunnah .

 

[Mughal]

Allah swt did not just send message but along with that messengers and prophets. They explained the revelations and implemented on that and showed us how to live our lives according to that.

Thus basis of Islam is Quran and sunnah .

Dear justcrazy, we need to separate between various aspects related to deen of islam.

1)The quran is a message from God to mankind which people need to understand properly and follow faithfully.

2)People did not get this message direct from God because God chose to create a communication chain instead and that is why we have God, his messenger and other people who form a communication chain. Moreover a chain is as strong as its weakest link.

3)Today we have the quran and hadis reports but only quraan can be relied upon fully because reports have been distorted so we need to have criterion to separate true ones from the false ones before we could use them for supporting the quranic message. This means we first must understand the quran and then that will tell us which report is ok and which is not. This is why the quran has to be the foundation and not the quran and the sunnah or the quran and the hadis etc.

In other words the quran decides what is true or false and what is right or wrong nothing else. Once we have worked out the criterion from the quran then we can use anyone's word or deed to further clarify things including those which are attributed to the messenger of God. This is why sunnah or hadis are not capable of being foundation of deen of islam along with the quran.

Messenger of God has been bound by the quran to live by it and so have been bound all other human beings. There is no distinction when it comes to following rule of law of God as none is above the law, not even the messenger of God nor Allah himself who has promised everything to mankind according to his revealed rule of law.

4)Hadis is not for interpreting the quran but for filling in details where need be. It is because God tells us in the quran his messengers made mistakes so how could he tell us to follow them regardless? This is why it has to be a qualified or restricted or conditional following and not absolute following.

5)The quran is not something impossible to understand on its own that we should tie it with sunnah or hadis for its proper understanding. Messenger of Allah had to play all those roles which he was told by the quran to play conditionally ie according to the quran.

6)It is because poeple have been interpreting the quran according to sources other than the quran that all translations and interpretations of the quraan ended up full of conflicting and contradictory information. It is therefore time that people who claim to be muslims realised that this is not the way to go about trying to understand the message in the quran. This is why deen of islam was changed with mazhab and mazhab was sugar coated with label of deen of islam.

regards and all the best.

 

[IAJ]

Dear friends, thank you for your responses.

In my view people who claim to be muslims must only and only take the quraan as foundation of deen of islam and nothing else for extracting basic framework or structure of deen of islam. Why?

Because the quraan is word of God and the rest are human words. God is free of making mistakes but people are not, be they messengers of God.

So if we will try to understand the quraan through the hadis then it is like we are trying to see something that is clearly visible through the badly smeared glasses which means we will not be able to see the clear thing clearly.

The quraan itself tells us messengers of Allah made mistakes which means humans are humans and prone to making mistakes otherwise the best among human beings could not have made any kind of mistakes eg the messengers of Allah.

So in the proper context of the quraan it is not people who are to be followed blindly but revelations of God and whoever follows revelations of God properly should be supported be one messenger of God or any other human beings. This is how ummah is supposed to come about ie all people following rule of law of Allah as their sole ruler in this kingdom of the universe. So people who put messengers of God or other Godly people equal to or above the law of God are going about deen of islam the very wrong way.

None is above the law of God not even God himself because he too chose to honour his law and on that basis he promised a lot of things in the quraan for mankind. So if God is not going to break his law then who else can be above his law to disregard it? So people need to stop believing wrong things in the name of deen of islam.

The quraan also tells mankind to support messengers of Allah and that means only in things which they do according to requirements of Allah for success of mission they have been assigned by Allah.

The quraan also tells people to not to follow even their own very ancestors blindly instead they should use their own better judgment and follow them only if they are saying and doing what is right.

This means the quran does not allow blind following of anyone at all instead all should use their own God given intellectual faculties to see what is right or wrong or true or false and then support or oppose it. So the criterion for deciding truth and falsehood or right and wrong is only and only the quraan. Not quraan and hadis or quraan and sunnah as mullahs have been misleading the ummah in order to create personality cults.

However once we have deen of islam main framework from the quraan then we can also use hadis and sunnah to fill in any needed detail.

In my view the quraan should be interpreted with help of the quraan itself only in light of real world realities. Once muslims do this all sects will be eliminated and ummah will become a reality once again.

regards and all the best.

How did muslims know that Quran is Word of Allah? Who told them that?

How many salah do you perform during the day? How many Tarawih do you perform during Ramadan?

 

[Justcrazy]

[MENTION=132843]Mughal[/MENTION] No one says that Quran is not the primary source or we will reject Quran for hadeeth .

But at the same time hadeeth have a role to play in islamic jurisprudence , it is not there without any reason.

Role of prophets are not restricted in being just carrier of message , but also explaining them

 

[Mughal]

Thank you dear friends for replies. You will understand that from my point of view I like to explain things in a bit of detail because my point of view is not widely known already as other points of views. It is easier for people to talk to each other when they already know where they are coming from but a bit difficult when it comes to discussion between not well known points of views. This is why if I only said yes and no you will not know what I am trying to say and why, this is why some details become absolutely necessary or you will never know what I am trying to explain or why.

Let me make it absolutely clear for you that I do not reject any source of information about deen of islam at all. What I reject is the idea that all sources are equal with the quraan. That I cannot accept unless someone can clearly prove that that is the case beyond any reasonable doubt which no one has done so far in my life time.

The reason I take the quran to be the only foundation of deen of islam is because it was God who created this world according to his plan for his purpose alone. This is why it was he who wanted to reveal his plan and purpose for mankind therefore he decided to send his messages for mankind. For this reason he devised a communication channel or chain through which he communicated his message for mankind. The revelation chain is not an exception rather like any other set up of this universe for various other purposes it is just another set up to serve a particular purpose eg one can look at ecosystem or solar system or rain cycle etc etc. The communication chain includes God and his missionaries ie people who work for him.

This explanation should make it very clear that communication channel and message of God are two different things. Purpose of communication channel is to act as medium for transmission of message of God and purpose of message of God is to guide mankind regarding matters which God thought were important for mankind to know so that mankind could fulfil his purpose for their part in his scheme of things. So all revolves around plan and purpose of God for which he created this universe and people in it. Had God no purpose for creating this universe and people in it with ability of freedom of choice then he needed no plan nor did he need to create this universe. So making proper sense of his purpose and his plan is a basic necessity for understanding deen of islam because that is the reason he told mankind a way of life whereby they could fulfil his purpose according to his plan.

as for message of God once it reaches people through people it is up to people to accept it or reject it with their own understanding of it as they see fit for themselves. This message needs prior understanding of things before people could understand it. If it is given to people who lack in needed knowledge then they will not know what to do with it and the best example for that is human babies. Anything you give to a human baby he puts it in his mouth taking it as his feed. The only people who can understand the message in the quran is those who are literate themselves and have good knowledge of things the quran is talking about or those to whom the quran is recited and explained by others and they become sensible enough to make proper sense of things. The rest are as good as living dead.

This should explain why I say the quran should be understood in light of real world realities because that is what the quran is actually about ie it is a teaching for mankind as to how to live properly in this world. If I say to a baby make me a cup of tea. The baby will not know what I am taking about because baby has not yet learned relationship of words with reality of real world things. He can repeat my words if he can talk but cannot carry out my request. This will remain the situation till baby grows enough and has sufficient life experience to come to know what my request meant for him. Only and only then he will be able to carry out my request. The quran is not any different when it comes to learning it for its proper understanding. Only those people come to understand it properly who have learned the way to understand it properly and they have learned the needed information and have the needed life experience. So all people who claim to know the quran if they are questioned about it, a huge majority of them will be dumbfounded.

The real point here is, it is God who wanted to send his message for mankind because he had to tell something to mankind and not messenger of God. The part messenger of God played in this scheme is message bearer just to pass on God's message to people. However before he could do that he had to make sense of the message of God for himself according to his time and available human knowledge because he too had to act upon it and the message told him to deliver it to others and that is why he delivered it to others and explained it to other to the best of his ability. We need to remember that God passed on his message to his messenger for himself and others not just for himself nor just for others.

By giving the wrong job description of messenger we are turning him into a God instead of God's messenger. The messenger was supposed to deliver message of God as it was ie as he received it from God, without adding anything to it or taking away anything from it. This is why the quran tells he did not speak anything as quran other than the quran itself. It does not mean whatever he said or did was always revelations of God. It is because messengers of God made odd mistakes that is why their those stories are also told in the quran to ensure people do not take them for other than human beings. When a person himself makes mistakes how can he create a message like that of God's message by himself? It is because messengers of God are also human beings they too are prone to making mistakes called human errors but God draws their attention to their errors and they correct them. However no messenger of God ever does anything wrong deliberately or intentionally.

The mistake you are making in trying to understand my explanation is you are not separating the communication chain from the message the chain is supposed to deliver for which the communication chain is set up by God who made sure it worked for his purpose and it does and that is why we have the quran today so many centuries after the messenger of God has gone from this world. This is why the actual framework or structure of deen of islam has to come from the quran alone not from mixed sources particularly when those sources are prone to mistakes and errors beyond corrections.

Messengers of God have been making mistakes and that is what the quran itself tells us. For this reason God could not tell us to follow them unconditionally or blindly that is why whenever God tells us to follow his messenger it means in things which he did according to the quran to fulfil his God given mission and not absolutely in each and everything he said or did. To follow anyone absolutely is impossible because one can never know each and everything about anyone even on daily basis or we ought to have diaries of messenger of God not hadis books. Such natural limitations limit how much we can know about anyone, so people who tell us we know each and everything about the messenger of God are not realising what they are saying or claiming about messenger of God. Moreover there are things which messengers of Allah said and did as reported in hadis books which if we said and did we will become kaafir therefore it is wrong to say we must follow messenger of God absolutely and unconditionally without any limits or qualifications. So I do not see what is so difficult there to understand if people have learned the knowledge they need to make proper sense of the message in the quran? If they have not learned the needed knowledge to understand the message in the quran properly then they cannot understand any explanation no matter how detailed it is. It is because we human beings are born not knowing a thing and it takes us ages to grow up by learning things bit by bit on daily basis. This is the real extent of explanation that is required for a human being to start making proper sense of things.

Moreover how can one use a secondary source to interpret the main source if secondary source itself depends upon main source for its qualification or authenticity? This is why the quran alone has to be the foundation of deen of islam. However once we have derived the structure or framework of deen of islam from the quran alone in light of real world realities there after we can use all other sources to fill in details where need be that is consistent with the framework of deen of islam as derived from the quiran alone just like bits of jig saw puzzle. I am saying real world realities because the quran is all about how people ought to live in the real world. Deen of islam is nothing other than a way of life advised by Allah for mankind to live in this world properly to fulfil his purpose of creating them according to his given plan or roadmap or program.

Furthermore mullahs have misinterpreted the quran by telling us it is a complete code of life instead of telling us we need to extract framework of deen of islam from the quran to form a complete code of life to live by. The quran does not give us a fully worked out constitution and laws for organising human society and regulating it. This is why we do not have ummah as the final messenger of God left behind after its formation on basis of the quran alone. As I see it unless we go back to the quran alone as foundation of deen of islam there is not going to be any ummah in the future either as it has not been over the so many past centuries.

regards and all the best.

 

[Greenstorm]

Okay, so I'm going to reply to the both of you in one go as you made similar arguments.

Firstly, I understand from [MENTION=140491]Greenstorm[/MENTION] that you can subscribe to certain view from Ghamidi and certain views from other scholars but in the end one should seek the most logical explanation of Quran. So, I have a few question on this. There is a major conflict in the beliefs of Ghamidi vs other main stream muslims concerning the story of Hazrat Isa as well as with regards to execution of apostates. So are we to say most of the main stream Muslim community is incorrect in their beliefs?

Majority Muslims have got the basics right such as basic beliefs and prayers, Salat, roza, Hajj etc. There are differences on other subjects and when there is difference of opinion, not everyone will be right. On the issue of apostasy, I cannot say for Muslims outside Pakistan but in our country majority of Muslims have got it wrong in my opinion.

Moreover, are we allowed to pick and chose items from different schools of thought? For example, some Shia schools of thought believe Mu'tah is halal. Ghamidi believes interest is not haraam and selling alcohol is not haraam. So, I can pick whatever suits my needs?

We can obviously pick and chose. Our job is to follow deen (Quran and Sunnah). Different schools of thought have done an extensive and appreciable work of interpreting and taking guidance from deen which equiped ummah for their varying needs according to times. They did make mistakes but it was an ongoing process that immensely benefited the ummah as it gave them solid ideological footing against the changing realities of time, thus, they flourished in most fields of life. This process stopped once the present four schools of thought established themselves among masses and discouraged any future interpretation.

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION] says the Quran supersedes any text which is fine but the Quran does not directly address apostasy as well as several other topics. What are we to do in those cases as apostasy is clearly addressed in Hadith. Based on what you quoted are we to believe that these is conflict between the two? and if so, how is that even possible? Do we disown the Hadith completely?

There is no conflict between Quran and hadith on the issue of apostasy. It will be clear once you watch full video of ghamidi that I shared in my link.

If we disown the Hadith completely then does that mean that the Quran is to be understood without resorting any to extra-Quranic texts? Your answers to this question will decide which way this discussion goes. If there are extra-Quranic texts that we can rely on to understand the Quran, according to you which texts would those be?

Ahadith should be examined in light of Quran to understand deen. There are ahadith in which Prophet (PBUH) explained aspects of deen and there are others which refer to His day to day life.
Our approach as a Muslim should be to sincerely seek truth, look for the most logical explanation and then believe in it. I think that is all God demands from us, whether we get to the right conclusion is irrelevant.

Bold.

 

[Lurker_Ind]

From what I have seen, it is pick and choose. There is no consensus on anything in Islam. Even basic things.

 

[miandadrules]

As someone who has a lot of experience with Muslims leaving the faith, a common pattern emerges.

They struggle to reconcile what the Hadith espouse and basically become Quranists, in the hope that it shields from the weakness in the Hadith.

Unfortunately, the issues that plague the Hadith also plague the Quran.

The evolution of noticed from many is Muslim to quarnist to ex-Muslim.

It is probably the most intellectually challenging time to be a Muslim. To reconcile all the available information and facts with what is expressed by Islam.

 

[Tubs]

Some people are saying that only minute things are taken from hadtih, but 5 prayers a day are only explicitly mentioned in the hadith (only 3 are explicitly mentioned in the Quran).

The Quran also doesn't tell you how to pray, either.

There's also the fact that Bukhari, for example, was compiled approximately 2 centuries after the death of Muhammad (and I'm guessing the sahaba).

I find it strange that the Quran claims that the Quran is all you need, but then you need the hadith to a) know how many times to pray, b) know the 2 prayers Fajr, Isha, and c) know how to pray.