What is the main reason for harassment of women in our society?

[MenInG]

This is mainly aimed at Pakistan/India/Asians but pls do feel free to add experiences/thoughts from other countries too.

 

[Asim_khan]

I’d have to go somewhere between lack of enforcement of laws and lack of education amongst males. It’s almost encouraged by some with power because they’re affronted by women enjoying the other three options you mention.

 

[thelandofthebravepeople]

Lack of respect for women.

 

[miandadrules]

It's multifactorial but I think the situation in the East is far greater than even the West, which as we are seeing is horrific.

I think one of the main issues is that women are still seen as possessions of males, be it father or husband.

Also, they are seen as inferior, regardless of how you want to spin it.

Just these two factors on their own inevitably lead to the exploitation of women. Couple this with how few in these societies actually speak up for women's rights and that there is institutionalised discrimination against them which reinforces from birth that they are inferior. I can't see how any how anyone can expect a different outcome.

How many here are TRULY and I mean TRULY willing to fight for the equality of women here?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I voted weak enforcement of harassment. If harassment is condoned by the courts then women will always be at the mercy of society.

 

[j_kazmi]

I think in Asia it’s much worse and that has mainly got to do with lack of education amongst males and also maybe cultural factors on the position of women in society.

But in the West it’s got more to do with weak enforcement of harrasment laws.

 

[Robert]

Centuries of patriarchy.

 

[maxamax]

I voted weak enforcement of harassment. If harassment is condoned by the courts then women will always be at the mercy of society.

Weak? Do you want people to pluck their eyes, ears, brain out if their body responds to biological causes?

It's multifactorial but I think the situation in the East is far greater than even the West, which as we are seeing is horrific.

I think one of the main issues is that women are still seen as possessions of males, be it father or husband.

Also, they are seen as inferior, regardless of how you want to spin it.

Just these two factors on their own inevitably lead to the exploitation of women. Couple this with how few in these societies actually speak up for women's rights and that there is institutionalised discrimination against them which reinforces from birth that they are inferior. I can't see how any how anyone can expect a different outcome.

How many here are TRULY and I mean TRULY willing to fight for the equality of women here?

Another argument that girls use is being tired of feeling 'inferior'. How can staying simple be considered as inferior?

 

[miandadrules]

Weak? Do you want people to pluck their eyes, ears, brain out if their body responds to biological causes?




Another argument that girls use is being tired of feeling 'inferior'. How can staying simple be considered as inferior?

It's called self-control.

The majority of the world has it.

If you can't control yourself the problem isn't with the woman, it's with you.

A thoroughly pathetic mindset.

 

[maxamax]

It's called self-control.

The majority of the world has it.

If you can't control yourself the problem isn't with the woman, it's with you.

A thoroughly pathetic mindset.

Its not about me. You can't provoke everyone and expect them to find it controlable.

I rest my case.

A grand display of ignorance.

was expecting that.

 

[Mueez]

Because of lack of education men can't control themselves.

 

[sjahmed23]

Insecurity of men in these societies and feeling powerless.

It is apalling though in this day and age our moulvies only worry about what the women are doing or not doing and cant look past that. Everytime I see Pakistan's CII come out with a statement it is related to what a woman in our society can or cannot do.

 

[shaz619]

It's multifactorial but I think the situation in the East is far greater than even the West, which as we are seeing is horrific.

I think one of the main issues is that women are still seen as possessions of males, be it father or husband.

Also, they are seen as inferior, regardless of how you want to spin it.

Just these two factors on their own inevitably lead to the exploitation of women. Couple this with how few in these societies actually speak up for women's rights and that there is institutionalised discrimination against them which reinforces from birth that they are inferior. I can't see how any how anyone can expect a different outcome.

How many here are TRULY and I mean TRULY willing to fight for the equality of women here?

Me, but my situation is a bit different because of what things were like growing up when certain individuals hold various views about people so close to you and you see them get treated a certain way daily. From a young age I came to the realisation that no one should ever be treated in that manner, there's no justification. But am lucky to have gained that understanding, others could potentially replicate evil behaviour they witness and I've known children who assault their own mothers because their father would have done so and it all sort of became a norm which stems from an extremely backward mindset which deems women to be inferior, there are certain religious texts as well I've seen from the deobandi sect which make various behaviours acceptable and those who perform those behaviours feel vindicated.

 

[JoniInsafian]

Conservative moral values, religion....

Society that doesn't let you know the other gender... Doesn't let you interact with them... Doesn't let you express your romantic feelings and sexuality in a healthy way... That tells you that women who dress provocatively are easy and deserve it...

Leads to a lot of creepiness and immaturity in both men AND women....

Also because of hypocrisy, we are semi-modern... Hot people on tv, internet, dating is little more normal now, you don't have multiple marriage or concubines or slaves anymore (like old times of religion)... This means a lot of pent-up frustration but no outlet for a lot of these people... So outlet is kids, animals, other men, women,...

Main victims are young boys.... Especially in conservative pashtun areas... Then only women...

 

[Pakistanian]

Culture is the problem. It starts at home where we control how our sisters and other womenfolk in our family dress, behave, and who they talk to. That's why honor killings and domestic violence is a big issue in the subcontinent.

 

[Arham_PakFan]

Weak? Do you want people to pluck their eyes, ears, brain out if their body responds to biological causes

Biological causes.LOL

It’s called controlling your urges and respecting women.But you don’t want them to be respected because of their clothes.Way to go for justifying harrasment.Disgusting mindset.I have known two women who were assaulted after being followed off the bus.They were wearing burqas.I have seen and confronted men who were ogling my relatives who wear hijab and loose burqa.

There is a reason why EVERYONE on this thread is condemning and laughing at your post.That is because you’re wrong.

 

[MenInG]

Deleted some despicable views

 

[Saeed]

In my opinion weak enforcement of harassment laws is one of the main reason. Educated males might be less likely to harass women but they are capable of harassment too. In societies where abuse is severe, intervention of authorities is necessary. Harassment laws must be enforced properly to discourage certain activities.

 

[Yossarian]

In my opinion weak enforcement of harassment laws is one of the main reason. Educated males might be less likely to harass women but they are capable of harassment too. In societies where abuse is severe, intervention of authorities is necessary. Harassment laws must be enforced properly to discourage certain activities.

It's nothing to do with harassment laws but everything to do with culture and society.

I guarantee that amongst the desis each and everyone of those doing the harassing and ogling of women will go mental and start attacking anyone and everyone who harasses or ogles their own mothers, sisters or daughters.

Basically they don't see themselves as being the vile demented bustaards when they ogle and harass other mens mothers, sisters, daughters or wives, and yet if the roles are reversed ..........

 

[CricketCartoons]

It's nothing to do with harassment laws but everything to do with culture and society.

I guarantee that amongst the desis each and everyone of those doing the harassing and ogling of women will go mental and start attacking anyone and everyone who harasses or ogles their own mothers, sisters or daughters.

Basically they don't see themselves as being the vile demented bustaards when they ogle and harass other mens mothers, sisters, daughters or wives, and yet if the roles are reversed ..........

Agree.. blaming the law enforcement is a cop out. The reason is culture. I was on vacation with my wife last week (yes, finally went abroad) and she said no one was staring at her, but if she wore the same dress in India, the men will be measuring from head to toe.

 

[Saeed]

It's nothing to do with harassment laws but everything to do with culture and society.

I guarantee that amongst the desis each and everyone of those doing the harassing and ogling of women will go mental and start attacking anyone and everyone who harasses or ogles their own mothers, sisters or daughters.

Basically they don't see themselves as being the vile demented bustaards when they ogle and harass other mens mothers, sisters, daughters or wives, and yet if the roles are reversed ..........

Yeah that is an important factor too. But if authorities intervene in such situations there is a good chance that such behavior would decrease or at least it won’t be as blatant as it usually is.

 

[Yossarian]

Yeah that is an important factor too. But if authorities intervene in such situations there is a good chance that such behavior would decrease or at least it won’t be as blatant as it usually is.

The desis in the UK still ogle. In fact if there were two identically dressed women, wearing party dresses, walking down the road, but one of them happened to be a desi Asian, she's far more likely to be the one ogled as opposed to the non-Asian.

 

[saadibaba]

The desis in the UK still ogle. In fact if there were two identically dressed women, wearing party dresses, walking down the road, but one of them happened to be a desi Asian, she's far more likely to be the one ogled as opposed to the non-Asian.

Maybe they are trying to ogle-shame the desi girls. Going by the detailed description provided by one of the poster above who has been observing the clothing choices and fashions of desi-girls in great detail, certainly seems to be the case.

 

[Saeed]

The desis in the UK still ogle. In fact if there were two identically dressed women, wearing party dresses, walking down the road, but one of them happened to be a desi Asian, she's far more likely to be the one ogled as opposed to the non-Asian.

Are they born in UK or from India/Pakistan? In India/Pakistan harrasment sometimes can be deadly so law enforcement is even more necessary.

 

[DW44]

Definitely not a law enforcement issue. For one, what laws? The laws are stacked heavily against women. Harassment, and poor treatment of women in general, comes down to a toxic combination of culture and religion in Pakistan - on issues related to women's rights, the two go hand in hand, feeding off of each other. In Pakistan, the belief that any woman that is not covered from head to toe in a tent, who's working outside her home, interacts socially with members of the opposite sex and has a voice in general, is inherently immoral and therefore, a lesser being who's fair game and deserves what's coming to her.

This has it's roots in the Islamic concepts of "purdah" and "haya". It's a fairly common perception in Pakistan that your morality is tied to your religiosity and a woman not following the established norms of what is considered "proper Islamic behavior" is deemed to be an immoral hussy who is deserving of what she gets/asking for it.

Segregation of the sexes and influence of Indian movies from the 80s and 90s is another factor. The perception that members of the opposite sex are some alien race, coupled with the "keep pursuing her until she says yes" mentality that every Pakistani grew up watching in the movies and internalizing creates a very volatile situation where you have people who react in the most ridiculous ways when rejected (acid attacks, rape and so on).

The third factor is religious beliefs. It's a fairly common belief in Pakistan that religious values are a public commodity to be enforced by the common man on society at large, not a matter of personal belief, which is why you have people getting offended when Mahira Khan gets photographed in a sundress. When the CII justified their opposition to legislation against domestic violence citing verses from the Quran, an overwhelming majority rallied behind them instead of taking ownership of their religion and saying "we don't want to beat women up". Instead, for weeks, anyone who expressed an opinion against the official line would be presented with a verse from the Quran and some very uncomfortable follow up questions about their religious credentials.

 

[Ocelot]

Islam and Patriarchy.

However women in Pakistan are gradually surpassing men in all fields and disciplines (with the exception of Engineering and Military related disciplines). So the tables are getting turned. In Pakistan male-to female registered doctor ratio is a mere 1.2:1 (in India it's 5:1).

It's not the women I'm worried about (Pakistani women are better than the males in every way), it's the continuous deterioration of the Pakistani male.

 

[Markhor]

Did anyone read about the AP investigation into child abuse in Pakistani madrassas ?

Its not only young girls but even young boys that are victims of sexual abuse. This is a result of a culture that suppresses natural human urges and fails to educate its population about sexual etiquette/health. These so-called guardians of Islam who are responsible for such an emotionally stunted society are some of the worst offenders of these crimes; their hypocrisy is sickening.

Harassment is a different issue and sadly one that even women in the West face. Cat-calls, whistling and inappropriate advances is a problem for many workplaces, city centres and college campuses. Men who ought to show more control and self-respect often get away with impunity for such behaviour, its only now that more women are starting to speak up.

Lack of convictions for sexual abuse is an international problem, but in South Asia the rates are abysmal with law enforcement often turning a blind eye; especially if a cleric or public figure is involved. Backward notions of chastity and honour also makes the issue hard to discuss for women let alone take a case to a court of law.

 

[DW44]

Did anyone read about the AP investigation into child abuse in Pakistani madrassas ?

Its not only young girls but even young boys that are victims of sexual abuse. This is a result of a culture that suppresses natural human urges and fails to educate its population about sexual etiquette/health. These so-called guardians of Islam who are responsible for such an emotionally stunted society are some of the worst offenders of these crimes; their hypocrisy is sickening.

Harassment is a different issue and sadly one that even women in the West face. Cat-calls, whistling and inappropriate advances is a problem for many workplaces, city centres and college campuses. Men who ought to show more control and self-respect often get away with impunity for such behaviour, its only now that more women are starting to speak up.

Lack of convictions for sexual abuse is an international problem, but in South Asia the rates are abysmal with law enforcement often turning a blind eye; especially if a cleric or public figure is involved. Backward notions of chastity and honour also makes the issue hard to discuss for women let alone take a case to a court of law.

Pakistan has a 4% conviction rate in cases of sexual assault. Whenever the issue somehow finds itself part of the public discourse, we have people ready with the UP/Bihar defense (Oh, it only happens in KPK/shouldn't have let in Afghans, they brought it with them).

To put that 4% in context, around 10% (realistic) to 20% (best case scenario) of cases of sexual assault are actually reported so some quick math gives us a figure of 1 conviction for every 200-250 rapes.

 

[maxamax]

Islam and Patriarchy.

However women in Pakistan are gradually surpassing men in all fields and disciplines (with the exception of Engineering and Military related disciplines). So the tables are getting turned. In Pakistan male-to female registered doctor ratio is a mere 1.2:1 (in India it's 5:1).

It's not the women I'm worried about (Pakistani women are better than the males in every way), it's the continuous deterioration of the Pakistani male.

If you consider being doctor as success then do look at the quality of such doctors.

Since being doctor is considered a high-point for rishtas in Pakistan, parents are pushing their girls into private dens and spending tons of cash to get doctor tag. Quacks are not good doctors.

And I am yet to see a female engineer or developer rated good in my field. But I have seen so many taking advantages of their gender to get their projects done by innocent male peers.

 

[maxamax]

Biological causes.LOL

It’s called controlling your urges and respecting women.But you don’t want them to be respected because of their clothes.Way to go for justifying harrasment.Disgusting mindset.I have known two women who were assaulted after being followed off the bus.They were wearing burqas.I have seen and confronted men who were ogling my relatives who wear hijab and loose burqa.

There is a reason why EVERYONE on this thread is condemning and laughing at your post.That is because you’re wrong.

Never said that harassment is justified under that cause but you would rather blame overspending driver for the accident rather than the careful one.

So for men, its necessary to control themselves but its okay for women to do whatever they like?

Regarding burqa example, two things!

First, Burqas alone don't define modesty. They only cover the visual aspect at present timeline. Neither me nor you can judge what they've been up to other than that. We can't judge anyone, but yes, they did a crime and must be punished.

Second, writing it in bold so that anyone having reason can do counter-argument against it. Even modest society will have few out-liers. They are wronged, seriously wronged and need to be punished for deterrence and/or rectification. But if a huge chuck of men's population scattered all over the world doing this then the society's ideals are the ones needed to be corrected. There is a huge difference between these two and you can't close your eyes over common sense for one by picking example of another. You don't remove seat belt from car after knowing that 2% of accidents still had seatbelt on.

Aristotle was also ridiculed even punished for calling Earth spherical even with evidences. I shared it (erased now due to lack of view-tolerance I guess), if anybody can come up with logical reason to nullify that, feel free to. Otherwise ridiculing me or it won't change the facts.

 

[Ocelot]

If you consider being doctor as success then do look at the quality of such doctors.

Since being doctor is considered a high-point for rishtas in Pakistan, parents are pushing their girls into private dens and spending tons of cash to get doctor tag. Quacks are not good doctors.

And I am yet to see a female engineer or developer rated good in my field. But I have seen so many taking advantages of their gender to get their projects done by innocent male peers.

This will slowly get better, trust me. Hundreds of years of male domination on these fields is not easy to shed. However the progress women have made is quite remarkable in last 20 years.

 

[maxamax]

This will slowly get better, trust me. Hundreds of years of male domination on these fields is not easy to shed. However the progress women have made is quite remarkable in last 20 years.

There are more chances of sub-continental men becoming more honest with work than this.
But its not about restricting women from work, they should be free to do that. Its about keeping them modest enough so that they don't seek or get gender-based privileges.

 

[DW44]

There are more chances of sub-continental men becoming more honest with work than this.
But its not about restricting women from work, they should be free to do that. Its about keeping them modest enough so that they don't seek or get gender-based privileges.

This, right here, is one of the biggest reasons women get harrassed. Conservative men think it's their god given right/responsibility to make sure women live within the bounds of a framework designed by men to perpetuate their own privileged position and keep women in a position of subservience to men. If a man has a go at a woman because she wears something he doesn't deem modest enough, there need to be laws in place to penalize the man for impinging on someone's most fundamental rights - this especially applies to people who try this nonsense with their own mothers/wives/sisters etc because that's where it happens the most.

 

[Pakpak]

This, right here, is one of the biggest reasons women get harrassed. Conservative men think it's their god given right/responsibility to make sure women live within the bounds of a framework designed by men to perpetuate their own privileged position and keep women in a position of subservience to men. If a man has a go at a woman because she wears something he doesn't deem modest enough, there need to be laws in place to penalize the man for impinging on someone's most fundamental rights - this especially applies to people who try this nonsense with their own mothers/wives/sisters etc because that's where it happens the most.

Can't give this post likes enough. Sick of this attitude where men think they can control what a woman can or cannot do. I mean maxmax pretty much has compared himself to an animal earlier by dismissing perving at women as some sort of biological phenomena where men like him simply can't control themselves.

Pretty much what religions are based on. Where a woman has to do everything because perverted men can't seem to control simple urges.

 

[Yossarian]

And I am yet to see a female engineer or developer rated good in my field. But I have seen so many taking advantages of their gender to get their projects done by innocent male peers.

Says more about your employer and your work environment than it says about the ability of women in the fields you mention. You need to change your employer or get out a bit more.

 

[maxamax]

Can't give this post likes enough. Sick of this attitude where men think they can control what a woman can or cannot do. I mean maxmax pretty much has compared himself to an animal earlier by dismissing perving at women as some sort of biological phenomena where men like him simply can't control themselves.

Pretty much what religions are based on. Where a woman has to do everything because perverted men can't seem to control simple urges.

No. I am only questioning the fact that why men has to be the one 'controlling themselves' and women are supposed to 'dress freely'. Should be the other way around when it causes deviation in human behaviour. Harassing is only the tip of errors iceberg.

 

[maxamax]

Says more about your employer and your work environment than it says about the ability of women in the fields you mention. You need to change your employer or get out a bit more.

Been to several insititues in various cities of country, some had great reputation. Sat with various students. Colaborated with them in various products. Whenever I asked girls in casual discussion about the nature of their projects, their blunt reply was 'humain kiya pata kiya tha hum to chai pani kay liye thay' (we dont know, we only chilled around). Most of the girls were placed on jobs based on their skin/beauty or connections. There were few anamolies. But how badly you want to twist the percentages to make them appear interested? Still. I am not suggesting them to stop. Only to climb using their hardwork and capabilities rather than using their body to climb up.

If you still are in doubt, do me a favor. Pick and reputable computing journal from IEEE or ACM and find the number of major (high impact factor) contributions from men vs women. No body is stopping them to contribute. Esp. in west. Then why is the percentage so odd?

 

[DW44]

No. I am only questioning the fact that why men has to be the one 'controlling themselves' and women are supposed to 'dress freely'. Should be the other way around when it causes deviation in human behaviour. Harassing is only the tip of errors iceberg.

To find the answer to this particular question, you need to familiarize yourself with the notion of consent because this is the line of reasoning used to defend sexual assault. A woman can wear whatever the hell she wants, it's not her problem you have the self control of a 12 year old. Your inadequacies can not be used to justify placing unnecessary restrictions on the lives of others. There's a reason a woman in a burqa walking the streets of Lahore is more likely to get stared at and harrased than one in daisy dukes walking the streets of, say, Frankfurt or Nice.

 

[DW44]

Been to several insititues in various cities of country, some had great reputation. Sat with various students. Colaborated with them in various products. Whenever I asked girls in casual discussion about the nature of their projects, their blunt reply was 'humain kiya pata kiya tha hum to chai pani kay liye thay' (we dont know, we only chilled around). Most of the girls were placed on jobs based on their skin/beauty or connections. There were few anamolies. But how badly you want to twist the percentages to make them appear interested? Still. I am not suggesting them to stop. Only to climb using their hardwork and capabilities rather than using their body to climb up.

If you still are in doubt, do me a favor. Pick and reputable computing journal from IEEE or ACM and find the number of major (high impact factor) contributions from men vs women. No body is stopping them to contribute. Esp. in west. Then why is the percentage so odd?

Come to Islamabad, I'll show you around a few organizations (Telenor HQ, Mobilink HQ, Standard Chartered and so on). There are women there who will make you feel so inadequate you'll start questioning the purpose of your existence considering your worldview.

 

[maxamax]

To find the answer to this particular question, you need to familiarize yourself with the notion of consent because this is the line of reasoning used to defend sexual assault. A woman can wear whatever the hell she wants, it's not her problem you have the self control of a 12 year old. Your inadequacies can not be used to justify placing unnecessary restrictions on the lives of others. There's a reason a woman in a burqa walking the streets of Lahore is more likely to get stared at and harrased than one in daisy dukes walking the streets of, say, Frankfurt or Nice.

So if I make an abusive gesture, its 'sexual assault'. But for them, the same thing is 'freedom'? For us, control is as essential as breathing and skipping it in the heat of moment is crime. But for them its 'consent'?
If 1 person harass the burqa women, 99 will see her with dignity and respect. On the other hand, thousand's sight will move to the skin of woman and many are expected to deviate in minor or major (harassment/rape) ways. How can you justify one with rare bad exception?

 

[DW44]

So if I make an abusive gesture, its 'sexual assault'. But for them, the same thing is 'freedom'? For us, control is as essential as breathing and skipping it in the heat of moment is crime. But for them its 'consent'?

You still don't seem to understand what consent is. It is their choice to wear what they want. It's none of your business. If you act purely based on what you assume about someone's character based on what they're wearing, you're the problem in this equation not the woman.

If 1 person harass the burqa women, 99 will see her with dignity and respect. On the other hand, thousand's sight will move to the skin of woman and many are expected to deviate in minor or major (harassment/rape) ways. How can you justify one with rare bad exception?

Eh, no, they don't. This is the norm, not the exception. There's a reason women are so much worse off in a society like Pakistan where those ***-backward notions of morality are so stringently enforced compared to places like Norway, Germany or Spain which are veritable free for alls compared to Pakistan.

 

[shaz619]

If your mothers and sisters dressed 'freely' would you blame them for not covering up in the instances where they are victims of 'deviations in male human behaviour' ?

 

[Yossarian]

Been to several insititues in various cities of country, some had great reputation. Sat with various students. Colaborated with them in various products. Whenever I asked girls in casual discussion about the nature of their projects, their blunt reply was 'humain kiya pata kiya tha hum to chai pani kay liye thay' (we dont know, we only chilled around). Most of the girls were placed on jobs based on their skin/beauty or connections. There were few anamolies. But how badly you want to twist the percentages to make them appear interested? Still. I am not suggesting them to stop. Only to climb using their hardwork and capabilities rather than using their body to climb up.

If you still are in doubt, do me a favor. Pick and reputable computing journal from IEEE or ACM and find the number of major (high impact factor) contributions from men vs women. No body is stopping them to contribute. Esp. in west. Then why is the percentage so odd?

You've 'sat with students and collaborated with them' as the basis of your opinions? Gee whizz, you're so full of yourself no wonder they avoid you. Because that can be the only explanation for this attitude that you're displaying about/towards women. Hate saying this, but they're probably trying to avoid the creepy types 'who like to ogle at their instagram photos'';

Having worked with, and hired, women in highly technical roles, the only thing that stopped me from giving them preference over equally qualified males was UK and US gender equality laws (having lived/worked in both countries). Even in modern Western societies, it is still the case that women have to work twice as hard and be far more capable in order to reach the same levels of seniority within organisations compared with their male counterparts.